Co-hosts Liam Dempsey and Tara Claeys discuss the first year of the Hallway Chats podcast, and their own definitions of success.

Liam: This is Hallway Chats, where we talk with some of the unique people in and around WordPress.

Tara: Together, we meet and chat with folks you may not know about in our community.

Liam: With our guests, we’ll explore stories of living – and of making a living with WordPress.

Tara: Welcome to Hallway Chats. I’m Tara Claeys.

Liam: And I’m Liam Dempsey. Today, we’re going to do something different. Today is our 52nd episode. It’s the first episode in our second year of our show. Following a number of requests from listeners and former guests and really just the desire to indulge ourselves, Tara and I are going to, in effect, interview each other following our own format.

Tara: Now the conversation will begin. This is episode 52. Liam, in full disclosure to everyone, this is our second time recording this.

Liam: Yes, it is.

Tara: We agreed we would share that fact with everyone because we are human and we did have the opportunity to do a practice run, too.

Liam: But we didn’t call it a practice run, we just finished it and sat on the day and said, “That wasn’t what we want, let’s do it again.”

Tara: That’s exactly right. Here we are. We sort of can redo that and just do it better this time hopefully. We’d like to start by talking about Hallway Chats and we ask everyone on our show about success. A lot of what we talk about and probably will talk about today is going to be focused on the idea definition of success. I’d like to start by talking about the success of Hallway Chats as we view it, what our intentions were, and how we feel that is working out. You can start that conversation.

Liam: And so we will. Thinking about success, and I know in the last few weeks and days in the runup to our one-year anniversary, we were pushing a lot on social media to get to that 5000 downloads, and ultimately, we got there which was kind of fun and exciting. But really, in the grand scheme of things, the download counts were part of success but they’re really not anything close to the top and it’s really the connection that we make with our guests and, more importantly, that our guests make with our audience that I view as success. We get some of that feedback via social media, we get some of that feedback when you, Tara, and I roundabout, whether we’re at respected meetups or we’re at a WordCamp here or there. And just people saying, “Oh, I really wanted to meet this guest or that guest. When she said that, that really struck a chord with me.” That’s hard to measure but it’s really, really what we’re about, isn’t it?

Tara: For sure. I think when we set out to do this, if that had been our goal, if that had been how we were planning to measure to success of this podcast, we would have approached it very differently. But the focus of the podcast is to have people on the show who haven’t been on the podcast before or who haven’t been on a lot of podcasts before, who maybe are lesser known, which in and of itself means that we are building an audience for and with them and not trying to bring someone to the show who has a big audience already, necessarily. Not that that’s something that we’re qualifying on but part of our intention is to have people that we don’t know or that other people don’t know. And I’ve loved the opportunity to do that. I’ve loved meeting new people at WordCamps or meetups and inviting them to be on the show or talking to them about being on this show because we want to get to know them and we want to share their story with other people. For me, that’s been a really fun part of this show.

Liam: Yeah, I’d agree. The age-old lesson of don’t judge a book by a cover is really the– I’ve been reminded of that 51 times so far and I like to think I don’t do it too much but I’m human, inevitably, I make my conclusions about this person or that person. Through these conversations that we’ve had with people, it’s been really eye-opening in a lot of different ways to realize that that’s intelligence and amazing aspects that our guests bring to their lives and are kind enough to share with us and ultimately with our listeners. That’s really cool.

Tara: Yeah, it’s been really interesting to hear people’s journeys, not just with WordPress, not as the common thread, but just in general, the journeys or their struggles and challenges, and how we may relate to them each, you and I personally, in some cases, and hear from other listeners that they’ve related to it as well really strikes a chord with me and that makes me feel like we’re successful in what we just set out to do. I think one of the challenges that we’ve experienced is that getting the word out to people to allow them to contact us to showing interest in being on this show is something that we anticipated as being a challenge. It hasn’t been as much of one as maybe we thought it would be, because we haven’t really had a low, but I hope that in the second year, we continue to gain some interest and traction in a wider audience so that we get even more of those people to be on the show.

Liam: Yeah, absolutely. When we set out, we jokingly said that we didn’t want it to be the Friends of Tara and Liam Show, and that does present a very real challenge, that if you don’t know the person, it’s very difficult for us to ask if that person would be on the show. So going to meetups and going to WordCamps and meeting new people is really, really helpful. But it would be amazing if in our second year somehow we had enough of, I guess, awareness about this show that people outside of Northeast United States, mid-Atlantic United States were reaching to us. The guests that we’ve had that haven’t been from our corner of the world have been fantastic, but we’ve absolutely had to reach out to them. And that’s been nice, and I’ve enjoyed them, and they’ve been wonderfully kind to come on. Admittedly, you and I are limited in our command of world languages so we do need people to speak English for us but there’s so many that do. I’m really hopeful that as we go into year two that we can more accurately reflect the diversity and the wonderful scope of culture, and country, and language that the WordPress community actually is in real life.

Tara: Yeah, absolutely. I totally agree with that. I’m excited about that possibility. We should also acknowledge that we’ve had several people make recommendations to us, where they recommended several people that they think would be interesting guests on the show. That’s been helpful too. Even if people who are listening now themselves don’t have an interest in being on the show, maybe they know some people who do. That’s always welcome.

Liam: Yeah, that’s a great point. We’ve had some wonderful guests on in that way.

Tara: Yeah. Here’s to year two and more success.

Liam: Here, here. Here, here. Tara, I’m going to change gears on you and loop around to the success question outside of the podcast, outside of what it means for our show, and ask you to share your personal definition or your professional definition, or your own definition of success?

Tara: We ask this of everyone on the show, and you and I have talked about it ourselves over the past few months. I think wondering whether that definition changes over time or if the definition that we have is the same or how different it is from how we would define it maybe 20 years ago. And I realized after talking about this in our practice run the other day how really difficult it is to define, not only define but to record what the definition is, to put it into words is really difficult. What I think I’ve been considering over the past couple of days what makes it so difficult, sort of recording it as a permanent thing but also that everyone’s definition, not just that success is so different, but of right and wrong, of good and bad, because I would say– when we talked about this before, I said that my definition of success, at least personally, which overrides from me professionally, is to be a good wife and mother. And I said that might be an old-fashioned way to put it, but when I thought about that, I thought, “What does good mean?” That’s such a broad term. Good in my mind is what? Loving, caring, setting a good example. There are so many things, that’s such a broad term that I can use that as my definition of success, but it doesn’t necessarily pinpoint it because that definition of good could change over time. I think that’s still my definition, at a top level, of what it means to be successful as a human being is to first and foremost set a good example as a wife, mother, partner, and then friend, and colleague, and member of my small community, and my world community, all of those things. It’s so broad and it can be very specific to my household, but I believe that it also translates to how I feel about success in my interaction and the mark that I leave on the world. I think interacting with my family is where I start and hopefully, their interactions with other people are somehow influenced by my interaction with them. I’m not speaking too clearly, still, it’s very hard to talk about and not get too deep and heavy about it. But I think ultimately, we’ve had a couple of guests, say, to be the best version of themselves that they can be. And I would say that’s probably in a nutshell what I’m trying to say. I would say, the best version of myself at this time is different than what the best version of myself was 15 years ago. I was training for a marathon and I was very focused on other things than I am focused on right now. But I was successful because I was doing the best I could at what was important to me at the time.

Liam: Yeah, that’s good. I like that and I think that your description of being the best you that you can be and then tying that into– you want to start with your husband and your children, and then your family and your wider circles. I think that makes sense to me in a lot of different ways because you and your husband, you got married together, right? You made promises and oaths to each other. And I wasn’t at your wedding, I don’t know which your vows were but the very nature of some kind of agreement that I’m going to commit myself to being the best I can. From that relationship, you have children so there’s commitments to that. Those children wouldn’t be here if it weren’t for you and for your husband. Then it goes out from there, the wider community. And you’re just being the best you can for everybody that you encounter. Clearly, you’re going to encounter your husband and your immediate family and those closer communities much more often than you will the wider communities. But that, I always want to be the best I can, holds true regardless of where you are.

Tara: Yeah, and you can bring it down to a smaller level too and say, “As a business owner, what is success?” And it’s the same thing actually. It’s being the best I can be, doing the best I can at this particular time. And at this particular time, that’s different than it was five years ago when I was learning how to make a child theme or two years ago when something else was the focus. I think the definition of success changes over time but it always has that overarching doing the best I can.

Liam: That’s good. Then let me ask you the follow-up question if that’s your definition of success. What’s the single most important thing you can do every day to maintain that success, because it sounds like you feel like you’re successful right now?

Tara: At the moment, I do.

Liam: That’s not a dig. That’s a supportive–

Tara: No, I definitely feel– being able to define that makes me feel successful in a way. [laughter] Oh my gosh, I really have a handle on this, I feel like maybe possibly. But when it comes to the single most important thing that I do every day, I think just get stuff done. And I would like to say, which is what I referred to the other day, is meditating. Which is actually not totally truthful because I meditate or I don’t meditate. I’m trying to make that a habit. Honestly, I don’t know that that makes me feel successful in and of itself but I do have a goal in my best self of at least pausing during the day because I kind of can spin out of control and be so busy all the time that I don’t actually step back and pause. While I wouldn’t say I do it every time, probably the most important thing I could do to be more successful would be to take a pause. Yeah. Pause.

Liam: That’s what I just did, paused.

Tara: I saw that. [laughter] Okay, now it’s your turn, Liam. Let’s talk about your definition of success and see if it’s the same as it was the other day.

Liam: Yeah, it absolutely will be.

Tara: I knew that.

Liam: And that doesn’t mean– I think we both came to just go back to why are we recording a second time and I think it wasn’t that we necessarily didn’t like our answers, but we were also– and this kind of reflects on your challenges around definition of successes, emotionally we were in a very different place earlier this week, for some personal family changes and challenges and the like. That’s what it was, we were kind of, “Hey, it’s a one-year anniversary.” And it was, “Yeah, it is.” But we had some time to reflect then, I think. My tone is happier and my voice has probably more of an uplift in it, but my definition won’t change. In effect, it won’t. I won’t say it in exactly the same way. But in a nutshell, my definition of success is living as close to that which God wants me to do. To be successful, I need to be mindful of my relationship with God, which I see as truth, ultimate truth, ultimate love, pure truth, pure love. And if I’m aware of that relationship in kind of that paused moment that you were talking about, really mindful of it, and thinking about it. And yes, I’m still talking to you, yes, I’m still recording a podcast or maybe I’m in a conversation with a client or I’m designing a brochure or I’m launching a website, but I’m mindful of how I’m doing that and what I’m doing. I’m aware of what I’m thinking and why, and I’m aware of what I’m feeling and why, and kind of assessing if I’m doing that right. If I maintain that focus on my relationship with God, then I am a success. Because that awareness will ensure that at least at some point, I take the right step. And the right step won’t necessarily win me the contract or ensure that I’m the most efficient loving father at the time, but it means that I will be keeping with truth and love. There’s a lot of different ways to fall into that that may not still be measured as successful in a worldly way but really ultimately are.

Tara: Yeah, I admire that so much and what really I want to hone in on, what you said, is the word focus. Because I think you do have that focus and I remarked on this the other day as well, but something I noticed about you is that you do communicate and instill in all of your communication a tone of kindness and understanding that can only come from that kind of focus. It’s clear that that’s how you live your life and that you don’t just say it. I just want to acknowledge that.

Liam: Thank you.

Tara: But you’re successful in that regard.

Liam: At least right now, right? At least when I’m mindful, and that’s it. That’s the challenge, if that would be your next question, what’s your biggest challenge, it’s me. It’s focus, focus, squirrel, focus. Whatever it may be. And it’s so easy to get sidetracked, it’s so easy to lose our sense of humility to lose that focus. And it happens gradually. If I’m not careful, if I’m not really doing what I can on a daily basis, and even hourly, minutely basis to remind myself of what matters, then it’s very easy to slip. We slip once, we slip a little bit further, we keep slipping and then, ultimately, we find ourselves much, much further away than we want to be.

Tara: Yes. On that note, what is the single most important thing towards this definition of success that you can do every day?

Liam: I’ll say it to be mindful but that’s not very detailed, is it? That’s not a very practical kind of way. I have a number of techniques that I use to remind myself, in the same kind of way that you’re training for the marathon, what’s the best way to train for the marathon? Well, to be fit. Okay, how does that happen? You go on a run and you run for longer periods of time, and you eat healthy, and you maybe set an alarm to make sure that you have a snack so that you don’t get to lunch and eat all the food. You eat the right amount of food to train for the marathon because you’ve had a snack. And kind of those little human tips, techniques, David Allen getting things done kind of things is what I try to implement from mindfulness. I often set an alarm on my watch for 57 minutes so that I don’t go a full hour without thinking about my relationship to God.

Tara: I like that.

Liam: And making sure that I do some kind of daily prayer and some kind of spiritual reading and some kind of education around mindfulness. What I find is that if I have these little human tricks, human tactics, then it keeps me in the mind, it keeps me focused. And it’s not uncommon for some little alarm or some phone call from my wife or an interruption from a child to say, “Ah, yes, there’s the reminder. I don’t need to be that mad about this.” Child comes in the door, yes, that’s who I’m meant to serve. And just those little human things to remind myself, because I get to easily distracted. I so easily want to think about me and getting myself ahead, and that gets me nowhere ultimately.

Tara: Yeah. I was thinking about the strings on the fingers, reminder things. You know that movie, It’s a Wonderful Life and that cousin Billy has the strings on his fingers. “Oh, what’s this one for, what’s this one for?” There is so many things we can remind or try to set reminders on, and sometimes it’s hard to keep track of what’s that reminding you to. [laughs]

Liam: Yes, exactly.

Tara: But that’s a good tip. 57 minutes on your timer. Like the Pomodoro type of thing.

Liam: Yeah, just so it doesn’t go an hour.

Tara: That’s cool, very cool. Let’s switch gears to our next question.

Liam: Go for it.

Tara: What is the single most important effective piece of advice that you have received and implemented in your life?

Liam: I’m going to stick with the same answers that I gave the other day. Before I share it, I will preface that I heard it probably when I was 17, 18, 19. Old enough to begin to want to date people, to have relationships that weren’t just me and my buddies riding bikes and playing basketball and doing stuff at the lake. And my father shared it to me. I can’t remember the context in which he shared it but he shared it with me. I probably ignored it for, I want to say, at least seven to 10 years. Then I began to implement it but more perfunctorily than emotionally attaching myself to it. I would say, I don’t know timewise, Tara, but in the last few years, I’ve begun to embrace it more and it’s made a massive difference. The advice is, always be the first to apologize. My father meant that in a relationship kind of way. It takes two to tango, one person can’t get into a fight, there has to be two. And I’ll talk about that in a second but I ultimately found that it really can apply to any kind of disagreement. It doesn’t have to just be with a partner or a significant other, it can be with family, wider family, it can be with colleagues, it can be people from work, it can be the community that we find ourselves in. And not to say that we apologize even if we were not the original aggressor or that which was said unto to us was not justified, but we’re emotional beings and more times than not, when we get attacked we respond in ways that maybe later we wish we hadn’t. So more times I can apologize for no other reason than the way I responded. I found that being willing to apologize for my wrongdoing, to be willing to be the first to offer that I didn’t act in the way, I wasn’t being my best, to use your definition. I wasn’t being my best. That doesn’t mean I’m accepting blame for the wrong I’ve been accused of in the initial accusation but I didn’t respond in a way. I’m sorry I said what I said, I’m sorry I reacted when you came into my office, when you said those things to me, when you did this, when you sent that email. That approach has made my life a lot more peace-filled.

Tara: Yeah, I can see that.

Liam: And I sit and stew on things a lot less. I still sit and stew, but a lot less.

Tara: I thought about this advice since you shared it with me and I’m going to ask a more critical question perhaps, and maybe this is a perspective of sometimes how I find myself because I tend to apologize quickly because I like to keep the peace. So I find that sometimes I say it first without totally meaning it. If you jump to apologize to keep the peace and you don’t really mean it, then it can make it worse.

Liam: I’d agree. And I guess what I mean in apologize first, it’s not the, “Oh, I’m sorry I bumped into you.”, “Oh, I’m sorry.” Those are kind of– that’s politeness, that’s not really, “I said some mean things to you, I shouldn’t have said those. I don’t really believe that, I was mad.” Or maybe I really do believe it but I didn’t need to say it like that. And if I do believe that, we should probably talk about why I think that. Maybe it’s not justified and maybe it is, but shouting it at you, and I’m just using you because you and I are talking, isn’t going to make us better, isn’t going to help whatever we’re trying to do. Whether it’s make a good podcast or put on a WordCamp together or just be friends. We can speak candidly with each other but we need to do so in a way that is respectful of the dignity that we both have.

Tara: Yeah.

Liam: So when I said apologize first, to kind of go back to your question, is it’s much more helpful when things kind of, not explode, but get heated. It’s, “Ungh.” And then I strum off into my office or, “I’m going to go to the grocery store.”

Tara: Right. Taking responsibility for your role in the conflict maybe.

Liam: That’s exactly that. That’s probably the best way to break it down is take responsibility and come back with peace. And not like a peace offering like, “Okay, now you can go out with your friends tonight.” Although that might be part of it, but it’s more, we’re friends, we’re colleagues, we’re husband/wife, we’re partners, we’re in this. I’m sorry, that’s not how we be the best we are and I need to– again, your definition is, I need to provide a better example and just be better, so sorry.

Tara: That makes sense, good. Just wanted to clarify that little bit. Sometimes I find myself apologizing too soon because I just want the conflict to go away and I don’t really need it, I just want to shut it up.

Liam: Right. I get that, I get that. And I don’t do that, I tend to just walk away. Neither of which is an overly helpful approach but I suppose it speaks to our personalities. [laughter] Let me come back to you. We have a couple of minutes and maybe we’ll indulge ourselves and go a little bit longer on our one-year anniversary episode, Tara. But what’s the best advice you’ve ever gotten and implemented in your life?

Tara: I’m going to tell the same story I told as well, which is that you can do whatever you set your mind to. I love sharing this story and I’ve shared it in other places but when I was probably in middle school, back in the late ’70s, early ’80s, I really wanted to be a stewardess, as they were called in the day. I had not been on very many airplanes at the time but I always thought that stewardesses were so glamorous and what a cool job to travel all over and wear these cute little uniforms, and their hair was always pretty.

Liam: They’re always so friendly.

Tara: They’re always so friendly and I just thought that would be a great job. My dad asked me what I wanted to be when I grew up and I said, “I want to be a stewardess.” And he said, “Why not be the pilot?” That changed me forever because they gave me some flying lessons for my birthday, I was probably 15 or so, and just really took those flying lessons and got really airsick and motion sick and hot [laughter] and realized that was not what I wanted to actually do. [laughter] But the fact that he supported me in trying to aim higher and to really tell me that I could do whatever I wanted to do was really helpful. I’ll also say that he would not let me take typing because he thought that’s what secretaries– that I would end up being a secretary and that’s all I would be. Now, I’m on my keyboard all day long every day. [laughter] Making a living from my keyboard and I don’t really know how to put my fingers on the keys the right way. [laughs] But yeah, it instilled a very entrepreneurial spirit in me that I think I passed on to my children as well, maybe not necessarily entrepreneurial but just sort of that I can do what I set my mind to and being patient enough to follow through and stick with something until I understand it or I’m doing it to the level that satisfies me. That was great advice.

Liam: Yeah, I love that and I love that it wasn’t just advice over dinner or a barbecue or wherever you were when you first heard that, but that your dad went out and got you a couple of pilot lessons that you could actually see if you like that. That’s real commitment, that was not a throwaway statement from him. It was, “You can do whatever you want and I will support you to do it.” Apparently, okay, piloting is not what you’re meant to do but– [laughs]

Tara: But we tried it.

Liam: But you tried.

Tara: And saying that, “Why not be the pilot?” Stuck with me all of my life. I think about that even with teaching myself how to build websites. I needed a website at one point when I had a business many years ago and it was kind of like, why not learn how to do it yourself?

Liam: Why not be the pilot?

Tara: Yeah, that’s great advice.

Liam: That’s awesome, I love that. Well, Tara, we are a few minutes over time so maybe we should wrap this up. But before we do, let’s just spend maybe 30 seconds each and share with each other what we hope year two will bring for the show.

Tara: You want me to start?

Liam: Yeah, because I’m still getting my thoughts together. [laughs]

Tara: I’ll get mine together really quickly. I think more of the same, I think we’ve found something that works for us that we’ve committed to with the same intention. I think we share that intention and goal for this. It’s something we do sort of on the side as a service to the community, but also, I think we both discovered, as a service to each other, to ourselves. Personally, I’ve gained a lot from it. So it’s fun and interesting and enriching, all of those things. I’m looking forward to doing more of the same, we’re in a groove. Hope people continue to discover what we’re doing and participate in whatever way we want to.

Liam: Yeah, I like that. I think I’d agree with that and the only thing I would add to that is that I will work for and hope that we can reach out to the wider areas of the WordPress community to really connect with as many different people. It’s been so enriching in our lives and my life, and certainly, in the feedback, we’ve heard from some of our listeners, that they’ve really enjoyed it. I think, especially in this day and age, that’s a good thing is to build more connection, rather than less.

Tara: Yes, agree. Thanks, Liam. It’s been fun.

Liam: It has been, Tara. I won’t ask where everyone can find you because, well, they know where to find you, right? Hallwaychats.com

Tara: That’s right. Well, I think this is the keeper this time.

Liam: Yeah, I hope so.

Tara: I’m looking forward to publishing it for our episode 52.

Liam: Yep, one more year to go.

Tara: Thanks, Liam.

Liam: Thanks, Tara. See you soon. Bye.

Tara: Bye.

Tara: If you like what we’re doing here – meeting new people in our WordPress community – we invite you to tell others about it. We’re on iTunes and at hallwaychats-staging.ulpgsyz6-liquidwebsites.com.

Liam: Better yet, ask your WordPress friends and colleagues to join us on the show. Encourage them to complete the “Be on the show” form on our site, to tell us about themselves.

Tara: If you like what we’re doing here – meeting new people in our WordPress community – we invite you to tell others about it. We’re on iTunes and at hallwaychats-staging.ulpgsyz6-liquidwebsites.com.

Liam: Better yet, ask your WordPress friends and colleagues to join us on the show. Encourage them to complete the “Be on the show” form on our site, to tell us about themselves.