Monopoly expert & author Matt Stoller joins public defender, author, civil rights lawyer, & founder of Civil Rights Corp, Alec Karatkatsanis, to hash out their online disagreements about the "defund the police" movement. Many lefty guests over the years have raised concerns with defund as a slogan or as a movement goal, but rarely do they have an opportunity to talk directly to an abolitionist and expert like Alec. This conversation represents a real step forward toward the goal better understanding why "defund" was chosen as a label, why defund doesn't necessitate a trade off with public safety, the importance of breaking from reformist movements of the past, and the root of why so many ideologically aligned people bristle at the slogan.

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Produced by Armand Aviram.

Theme by Nick Thorburn (@nickfromislands).