In this episode, Christopher sits down face to face with Riley on a visit to Heber, Utah from Bakersfield California to talk about arriving at certainty through methodological doubt. The conversation begins with the uncannily similar methodological doubt of medieval Muslim philosophical theologian and Sufi mystic al-Ghazali (1056 or 1057-1111) and the first modern philosopher, René Descartes (1596-1650), by which each arrives at certainty through direct experience of what Descartes calls “clear and distinct ideas” and Riley and Christopher share their own experience.