Jason Healey (@jason_healey) and I (@rejectionking) discuss Jason's book "A Fierce Domain: Conflict in Cyberspace, 1986-2012". We open up the discussion with a look at the organization and reasoning behind Jason's book, a look at how we understand state's cyber capabilities, how the United States' creates cyber policy and whether that policy is too militarized, NSA surveillance and the private sector, and we end the show with what would be the ideal cyber policy.