Interviewer: CARRIE WELSH. Why does the American criminal justice system produce unreliable knowers? In this episode, host CARRIE WELSH is joined by philosopher and prison education director JOHN FANTUZZO and re-entry consultant and executive director RAYMOND POWELL for a conversation about the epistemological foundations of mass incarceration. Drawing on a forthcoming paper and lived experience, they unpack how the prison's economy of credibility systematically undermines the efforts and perspectives of incarcerated people and extends punishment far beyond prison walls. Their conversation ends with a call to center the knowledge of incarcerated and formerly incarcerated people in efforts to reduce society's reliance on incarceration.