This extended episode is an interview with Dr Mike Fenn, on Systems Thinking.  

At nearly four times longer than a regular FORVM499 episode, it is packed with information.  I learned an enormous amount from Mike as we put this together and I hope that its insights are useful to many.  Please forgive the serious tone: I promise that future episodes of FORVM499 will return to the frivolous and tendentious.  

The organisation referenced by Mike is The Waters Center for Systems Thinking.  Neither Mike nor I have any connections with it; and there is a wealth of free information from many sources for anyone who wants to take Systems Thinking a step further.