Ben is a podcaster of the Machine Ethics Podcast and one of the earliest and most avid advocates for digital ethics and ethical AI, long before it became fashionable in the current AI hype cycle.

Ben runs the Ethical by Design consultancy, focusing on AI models. He makes games with his company, Nuclear Candy Games. He has also worked on web and app projects and has taught data science, design and coding with Cambridge Spark, Decoded and Ada College.

• This conversation was recorded in 2024, before I decided to launch the podcast. Yet the talking points are so relevant to today's hype-driven AI world that I felt the episode needed to be revived and included in the CEOR debates. It also demonstrates the reality that AI has not really changed much. It's my counterparts behind the technology who keep on moving the goalposts.

Timestamps:

(00:00:00) – Preview

(00:03:41) – Ben's focus on AI and digital ethics for over a decade

(00:07:24) – Is Apple moving in the right direction toward responsible AI?

(00:13:21) – Ben's prediction of applied AI in everyday life, beyond generative AI

(00:17:17) – Who is accessing your data?

(00:23:31) – Wildly different definitions of AI from multiple AI experts since 2016

(00:37:57) – The real definition of "smart" AI and why ethical AI is the smartest

(00:44:57) – How capitalism and shareholders are killing AI and ethics

(00:54:20) – Can AI ever be regulated to enforce ethics

(01:04:32) – How Finland and the Nordics figured out ethical innovation

(01:12:00) – Ben's future predictions with the EU AI Act and Big Tech's plateau

Episode Notes & Citations:

⁠⁠https://ceoretort.com/podcast/guest/2025/08/18/pat-de-brun-big-tech-is-harming-our-human-rights-and-safety⁠

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