In this episode, Olya and Sandra talk to Marxist writer Richard Seymour. Seymour discuses the pathologies plaguing Europe owing to the crisis of capitalism and the ensuing sovereign debt crisis and the need to rethink the laws of social and economic life on which Europe is based. He talks about the importance of beginning, not with a blue-print, but in the anti-utopian style of Marx, building capacities for socialism in the present that can address some of capitalism's worst tendencies. The transition to a socialist Europe, he argues, will require the convergence of several types of power. He concludes by saying that "we need to talk about movement building, party building and how we can work with the state even when the state is working against us." [Date of interview: October 17, 2016]