What does it really mean to lead — especially during times of uncertainty, burnout, and constant change?

In this episode, I'm joined by author and longtime movement leader Eveline Shen to discuss her book Choosing to Lead Against the Current: The Courageous Operating System for Changemakers.

After spending more than two decades leading Forward Together, Shen has helped mentor organizers, activists, and changemakers working to build stronger communities and more sustainable movements.

This conversation explores leadership, courage, burnout, systems thinking, and how people can create meaningful change without losing themselves in the process.