The national deficit usually feels like an abstract talking point: America’s permanent credit card bill that just keeps getting bigger, without ever coming due.

But suddenly, our national debt has a real cost. As President Donald Trump’s proposed tax cuts threaten to add trillions to the deficit, every major credit rating agency has now downgraded the United States’ credit rating, suggesting that the U.S. is no longer a reliable borrower — a move with potentially disastrous, far-reaching consequences for the global economy.

To unpack what’s at stake, David Sirota sits down with Stephanie Kelton, a world-renowned economist and pioneer in Modern Monetary Theory, to ask her big questions: What does a credit downgrade mean? Should we really be thinking about America’s spending and debt like it’s a household budget? And how exactly could too much national debt bankrupt the country? 

The answers, argues Kelton, necessitate transforming our perception of money itself.