Facilitation Stories

 This episode is one of our quarterly “Chapter Chats” where Helene and Nikki talk to a member of the leadership team from another IAF Chapter.  Today’s guest is Jan Lelie, founder of IAF Netherlands.  Outside their IAF role Jan is a facilitator with a background in experimental physics.

Key topics from the conversation include: 

• How Facilitation and the role of Facilitators has changed over time

• What Jan has learned and continues to learn from other facilitators

“you have to practice what you preach. When I go to an IAF conference, I will do a workshop of myself and I also work with other facilitators to see and to learn from each other”

• How the IAF Netherlands Chapter was established

“ we wanted to have a certification process, and at that time, it was only in English… ”                we were the first organization which offered certification in their mother tongue.”

• Topics and themes of past IAF Netherlands conferences

• The IAF Netherlands Initiative: ‘diverging conversations through facilitation’

“We wanted to know, where did you make the difference? What was the turning point?”            “a suggestion of one of our facilitators that we should have a kind of year book”

• Ways the IAF Netherlands brings people together 

A full transcript is below.

Links

Today’s Chapter

https://www.iaf-world.org/site/chapters/netherlands

Today’s guest:  Contact Jan by email [email protected]

To find out more about the IAF and the England and Wales Chapter

Facilitation Stories website: https://facilitationstories.libsyn.com/

And to email us: [email protected]

IAF England and Wales: https://www.iaf-world.org/site/chapters/england-wales

The Facilitation Stories Team

Helene Jewell: https://www.linkedin.com/in/helenejewell/

Nikki Wilson:  https://www.linkedin.com/in/nicolawilson2/

Transcript

H.J

Hello and welcome to facilitation stories, the community podcast brought to you by the England and Wales chapter of the International Association of Facilitators, also known as IAF. I'm Helene Jewell.

N.W

And I'm Nikki Wilson.

H.J

And this episode is one of our quarterly chapter chats, where we talk to people leading other chapters in the IAF global community. We ask them about how they see the status of facilitation where they are, and the history, priorities, current projects and aspirations for their chapter. Today, we will be talking to Jan Lelie, facilitator and founder of IAF Netherlands. 

N.W

So welcome Jan. So to start off with, could you tell us a little more about yourself and the work that you do Jan?

J.L

Yes, of course. Well, I facilitate, and I said, I've always facilitated. I worked for six weeks as a consultant in 1984 and then decided that it was not for me, and that any situation requires all the participants to be in the same room, in the same place, and if you're not part of the solution, you're part of the problem. And find out actually what the problem is about. So I studied physics, experimental physics, and there I learned that the definition of the problem is part of the problem. So in most of the situations, people have a, how shall I say, the rudimentary idea of their problem, and then they start to implement a solution. And when the solution doesn't work, the solution actually becomes a problem. So you're asked to get a solution implemented which is not the solution to a problem, so it will never work. And I started out in IT, information technology and communications, and there, often IT is not a problem, it's a solution that doesn't work.

H.J

 And so you have been part of the IAF for nearly 30 years, I think. How have you seen the practice of facilitation and the role of facilitators change in that time? 

J.L

Well, first of all, I think that everybody facilitates. It's like everybody communicates. So facilitation, in my experience, is about making connections. It's how you connect with people, how your relationship works, and from there, and everybody connects with each other, only like with communication, nobody has been trained into effective communication and in effective facilitation. So most people work from an expert position, like a consultant or a trainer or even a moderator, and facilitation, in my opinion, is a different paradigm, a different way of dealing with relationships, and the only way to progress is to to learn from each other in working as a facilitator and facilitating. So that was one of the reasons I went to an IAF conference in London in the end of the 1990s which was organized by the IAF, and because we had a computerized brainstorming solution, we wanted to show and also I already had organized a group of what we call moderators, a network of moderators. And then I learned that what I was doing was called facilitation. 

H.J

It's interesting. I think a lot of people have said that, that they, they didn't necessarily call it facilitation, or call themselves facilitators. They sort of discovered by accident that there was a name for it. 

J.L

I studied biophysics, and I used to call it catalysation. And the catalysation is what most of all biological systems rely on, catalysation. And catalysation, strangely enough, means breaking the connection. So facilitation means making, to make. And Li is a very ancient word which we can recognize in the word line. And line of Li is connection. So catalysation is breaking the connection. And in my way of facilitation, I'm always being aware of how to end the relationship, how to stop the relationship. I always facilitate with the end in mind, and that's what the catalyst does. The catalyst takes one molecule and another molecule, and tries to connect them, and then steps out of it and unchanged. 

N.W

And how learned over that time, and if you, if you kind of recognize that that original conference, that what you were doing was, was facilitation, what kind of other things have you picked up through being engaged with other facilitators over that time?

J.L

What I do is practice makes perfect. So you have to practice what you preach. When I go to an IAF conference, I will do a workshop of myself and I also work with other facilitators to see and to learn from each other. Nowadays, at the conference we took about a quarter of an hour after a session, during IAF conference, to reflect on the session itself. What went well? What did you do? What can you do differently? And I think that is basically how I work. So it's still, I'm still doing training and courses, and then also what we learn together. I always say I cannot teach you anything. I can only facilitate your learning. And that's how I approach facilitation. Also, I try to be a facilitator’s facilitator. This might sound strange, but I will say the universe is my teacher. So the universe is very kind, and they offer you lessons. And the problem is that you, as I said, you cannot see the lesson until it appears, and then it's always in the resistance. So when you feel resistance against something, it's probably something you need to learn. And that is also what makes facilitation for most people very, I shall say, difficult or awkward, is that you have to deal with the resistance of a group or the situation, and let it be, not try to solve anything, but just like to see how it works out. If you see what I mean. Like I said, the universe doesn't have an agenda. So sometimes the lesson comes too early. Then you learn something, and you think, okay, thank you. And then sometimes the lesson comes too late. So then after two or three years, you realize, okay, this session, I happen to speak to a colleague facilitator yesterday, and she has problem in managing her team. And she said, it's difficult. And then I asked, What kind of difficulty? Is it difficulty? And then we remember suddenly a session we did, like 4, 5 years ago, what was a very simple technique by a Korean facilitator who I've invited of making bracelets of your, of what you find difficulty, and then put them on your arms and on your legs, or wherever you feel the difficulties, and then sit with them for some times, and then have a conversation with others who are also sitting with their difficulties and dealing with that. And that's where I work. You know, you get this, this method or this tool, and then you think, okay, just the opportunity will arise. 

N.W

Oh, excellent. I love that idea of sort of collecting things that you might use in the future, but not necessarily knowing where they will, where the need for them will emerge. I think that's probably something that a lot of us do, but not always consciously. So that, I love that example. It's great.

H.J

I just want to think a bit or ask a bit more about that, the whole sort of community element, I suppose. And thinking about IAF and the IAF Netherlands and ask a little bit more about that. So you're current and past chair of IAF Netherlands, but prior to that, you were IAF Benelux. Can you tell us a little bit about how the chapter was established? 

J.L

Yes, in the, well in 1990s I met John and Maureen Jenkins. And Maureen had been, or was, was becoming Chair of IAF world, and they happened to work in the Netherlands, and they organized a conference in Amersfoort here in the Netherlands, and I joined the conference together with some colleagues. And during the conference, we decided that we should have a Dutch network of facilitators, and we started to create a foundation called IAF Benelux. And it was in a time when IAF didn't have any chapters, it was just IAF world, and you became part of what, in my opinion, was an American organization, and then we, well, we founded this, this, this network, and we organized events. I think the most important thing is what we did is local events,and a yearly conference and also I went to the to European conferences. But the main thing for most Dutch people is they like to work in Dutch. And that is the other thing we organized from the IAF Benelux, we wanted to have a certification process, and at that time, it was only in English, but as that's been established by Dutchman, and there were some Dutch speaking assessors. We use the English process to have people certified in in Dutch and here in the Netherlands, we were the first organization which offered certification in their mother tongue.

H.J

Um, and that's for the Certified Professional facilitator accreditation

J.L

Yes, and I think we had about 100 or so certified facilitators here in the Netherlands at some time, because we did it together with the yearly conference, we had a certification event, and also we had separate certification event. At a certain time I think we had two every year. And beside that, we organized events, like I said, I like to meet other facilitators and to work together and to explore our way of working. And John and Maureen at that time, were very, as I said, supportive of the, of it. I think Maureen is one of the best facilitators in the world. He's one of a kind. So, and that's what worked for a couple of years, six or seven, eight years. And then IAF organized itself into chapter structures, and we had to become an association. So we, we terminated the foundation and became IAF Netherlands and for again, about, I think, 7,8,9 years. But the problem I always said with associations is that you have all these things about membership, and I think that association is not the best fit for a network of facilitators, because it creates expectations about what IAF does. So people usually ask me, okay, what is IAF going to do for me? And I said, Well, nothing. I'm not your mother. You have to facilitate yourself. We're here to facilitate you. But people kind of expect us to do things for them, and I was resisted that so, but I must say, I'm an exception. So most of my fellow board members, they were very kind, and they organized things, and they made memberships at everything. And I'm not that good in organizing things, you know.

H.J

I guess that's true of lots of people, though, isn't it? So some people are natural organizers, and some people just want to go and do whatever the facilitation or the, you know, take part in things. And sounds like a, it's a good job that you have that mix in the chapter. 

J.L

Yeah, and I also said I'm the worst chair in the world, you know, because I facilitate, I don't share anything. So, but in the end, because the problem with a board is, in my opinion, that you shouldn't have people in the board for eternity. So we made the decision that you could only be two times three years in the board, and then you have to leave the board. So gradually the board of the IAF changed, and then many of the board members became frustrated, because when you organize a conference, not many people show up. I think that is only natural with facilitation, because it's the diversity of facilitators is too wide to have a common ground. That may sound strange, but in my opinion, we don't have a common ground. We don't have anything in common except that we call ourselves facilitators, and that is not enough to have a professional association. I personally always say a facilitation is not a profession, it's a calling.

N.W

And so I mean, I suppose, bearing that in mind, despite some of the challenges of finding some common ground, you have hosted 12 conferences, I think, over the past sort of 30 years, while you've been involved. So what have been some of the topics or themes that the conferences have been about and that you've brought together people around?

J.L

Well, usually, I collect a small group of people, and we have a conversation about, or a facilitated meeting about what, what could be the theme of the conference. So we did a conference of, do, do the nothing, or in, in the Dao, it's called the way Wu wei. So it's, it's like do nothing, and it's very difficult for facilitators not to intervene, but sometimes it's very important not to intervene, so be there and be aware of what happens, and notice that you should let things go as they were, and only wait until you

are invited to intervene. So we did a conference about that. We did a conference of sedators carries on. So I think it's in England it's a set of movies, carry on movies.

N.W

Yeah, quite a different facilitation, I think in my memory, but yes.

J.L

No, but it's also what we do. You know, you just carry on.

N.W

yeah, too true.

J.L

and also like things that like, Oh, what do you do when you don't know what to do? This is also an interesting theme. And we also did a thing on facilitating with the brain in mind. So at that time, about 10, 15 years ago, a brain facilitation was coming up. So I just invited facili, we just invited facilitators to have a meeting together, so and bring the knowledge or the experience together. And then we also did something about like serious facilitation, which is also very funny, facilitation, seriously.

H.J

It sounds like there's definitely a bit of a theme just listening to you talk around facilitators needing to sort of step back a bit and not get too stuck in. And I do recognize that that kind of feeling, that sometimes you feel as a facilitator, that you need to do something. 

J.L

The other issue with facilitation is that you always have to work from a perspective and a meet up perspective. You have to be aware of your awareness. So you have to be aware of the metaphor which is being used. So people talk in metaphors, but you have to take the metaphor literally and not figuratively, and that is, and that is very hard to do, to see yourself in a situation and be aware of your situation and at the same time, how should I say, control your behavior or or inhibit that's also a thing which is important, that you are inhibited. In my opinion, I will say that your timing is more important than your method. So we are also always focused on to methods and techniques which are important. You know, you I know about every method and technique in the world, but at the same time, the timing is more important so you can use the wrong method and still have the right timing and get the results. Where, if you have a good methods, but your timing is wrong, then it won't work. And then people start to think, Okay, I should know this method better, but now it's not in the method its in your timing. And in my interventions, I always try ,and then when we do is also about when we're training, to be late in your intervention, a bit laid back so you can see your intervention coming, at least I can do it, and then I say, Okay, let's wait for some time and see if I'm right. You have to be aware of your assumptions. Yeah, that's it. And that's also in physics, you know, that's what I'm mean, to be, to be aware of your assumptions about what is needed and first test your assumptions before you act on it. That's, I think, how you should define your meta perspective. So whatever happens in a group, you make an assumption, okay, I think they are stuck. And then you say, okay, What sign do I have that they are stuck? Okay, well, they're quarreling, yeah, but quarreling doesn't mean they are stuck. It can also be very constructive. You know, one of the times as an example, I was a co facilitator with a facilitator, and people only in a group were disagreeing with each other, and they asked me, What should we do? I said, Well, just let the disagreement continue. Disagreement is good, and only when you're called in to, to facilitate, then you come as a facilitator. And and this is very hard to do, because you want to keep, to care for the group. Do you want to people to be constructive and to have people sometimes they have to disagree with each other. And only when you're asked to intervene, you intervene. 

N.W

Yes, I think there's something really interesting there about, as you said, the timing, and kind of maybe leaving it a little bit longer than you'd be tempted to, just because sometimes then something more emerges that you might not have assumed would happen. And, yeah, really interesting. 

H.J

Okay, thinking of time and moving on, just so we make use of the time we have. I just, I wanted to ask a little bit about the book that you co wrote, co authored. And this was, I think, one of the initiatives of your chapter, the IAF Netherlands chapter, and it was called diverging conversations through facilitation. And I think it's got 24 different case studies from different facilitators. And I just really wanted to find out a little bit more about that.

J.L

It was actually a suggestion of one of our facilitators that we should have a kind of year book. So every year a book about facilitation. And so I invited a group of facilitators to brainstorm about it, and I asked them to bring one of their favorite books, one book that inspired them. And then everybody introduces themselves using their book they brought. And then we looked at the qualities of the book, and then we make a list of the qualities about the book on facilitation, and then it was, they came off. So okay, we should have concrete cases about what you do as a facilitator, where you make the difference. It should have a strict format of four pages with two pictures, but not use the actual pictures, which make them into a line drawing, because you can read line drawings easier than pictures. And also they don't age. So pictures age, and then it should have a, shall I say, the preface, and a reflection on the on the book, and, and then we made this the chapters like, Okay, what did the client say? What was your situation? what was the core question?  What did you do as a facilitator? And then away, actually, where did you make the difference as a facilitator? And then what was your result? And then a reflection on your session. And then we edited all the and then we asked people first of time in the Netherlands, we did the thing in the Netherlands, first called the book, was ‘Facilitation Made Easy’. And we just invited people who came to the conference or in our networks to submit cases and asked their clients if they were okay with that their case was used. And also we checked the actual cases, and then we edited them for for, how should I say it, that they all look the same. And also, when you ask a facilitator what they do, you get a long story about the I did this and this and then I did, but that was not interesting. We wanted to know, where did you make the difference? What was the turning point, or the the Blue Note way, what was, what was, what you did, the counterpoint in your session? And then we sent them back to them, and what do you think about it? And then when they agreed, we put them in the book. And then, and it was very clever. I think we made, we decided to print like 2000 copies, but you could have your own cover sheet. So you could buy 50 or 100 with your own organization on the front and on the back, with and, and these were the sponsors of the book. So they paid, actually, they paid the fixed cost for making a book, publishing the book, even before we had to sell it, because they have already and they got a very low price for the 50 or 100. So our company might at work, ordered 100 and there were several other organizations, most of them organization for facilitators who bought 50 or 100 copies in the pre-sales. And I had my book published by Helling here in the Netherlands about facilitation, which is actually a meta praxis. And then it was in the Netherlands it was a huge success, and I introduced it at an IAF Europe conference. And then we decided to create the international version, and we translated the 12 international cases from the Netherlands, because a lot of us work in other countries and than in the Netherlands, and we invited facilitators from England, from Germany, from Japan, from North Africa, to add their cases. And we use the same format, and we added a glossary of terms, because then suddenly you notice that when we use the same word, we are saying different things. And we published that book, and our basic idea at that time was to make it one yearly or two yearly event and use the cases from the IAF award, let's say, as a format. We proposed it to the board, but we never heard anything about our proposal, again. One of the other things a facilitator could only buy two copies. So you bought one for yourself, and want to give away.

H.J

Nice. I think I have a copy actually. So yeah.

N.W

And from all of those different global case studies, are there any sort of key themes or lessons that came out of those, or any particular case studies that stood out for you? 

J.L

Yes, several. I think the case from Maureen Jenkins is very interesting because he worked with a congregation of nuns in Roman and international organization, which is actually very huge, but they have to change their way of working, and since it is very natural. And also, I like the case by Marlin Moran from Sweden, because in that case it is actually, it's a very short case, which actually, which is very often the case in many problem situations that people have different, how should I said, meanings of the same word. So in this case, it's about teamwork, but and the teamwork didn't work because they, the CEO, didn't think they were a team. They were working as a team, and it just happened that they had different definitions of the way of teamwork, some thinks, okay, it's a month or the weekly meeting. And also now we should pull together as a team we should share those. And Marlin noticed that and then made that as an intervention. And so this is also the cases that you start out with a certain assumption about what is the case, and then suddenly notice that there's a completely different problem or situation which is not being discussed and which should be on the forefront of the meeting. And I think this is one of the red threads, the one of ,what they have in common, that you are able to change your assumptions on what is happening while in the meeting. So of course, it's very difficult because you have prepared your script and or if you have your agenda and you want to stick to the agenda, but actually your own, I will say, you only got your agenda to know where you differ from your agenda. Plans are nothing. Planning is everything. So you've got a plan. I'm very, almost very well prepared for my sessions, but most of the times, in the first quarter an hour or first half an hour, the plan goes out of the window.

H.J

I really like that plan. Plans are nothing. Planning is everything. I think I might, I might take that as a quote.

J.L

 yeah, and you have to be able to replan your session during session, and that is why you have to. So only when you are well prepared you can improvise, because that gives you the certainty that you have thought this and and the ability to let go of your preparation when the need arises, when the situation asks you to. By the way, I learned it from a very good facilitator. She once came to my training. You did the brown 

N.W

and so thinking about, obviously, you've talked about the book and the conferences. What other ways do you sort of bring people together in IAF Netherlands? what other kinds of activities have you run? Or do you currently run?

J.L

Well, strangely enough,we had to dissolve the association, so we are now kind of a kind of open network, which I run through meetup, and I only organize one meeting a year, and still the meetup starts to grow and grow and grow. So we go from 300 or under 300 to over 500 now. And I sometimes ask people, okay, what you want me to organize, to facilitate, and then I get no response. So I don't know, you know, let's see. I'm hoping to do something in September about facilitation. 

H.J

And do you have any particular you know, What do you think will happen in the future? So at the moment, it sounds like it's sort of loosely organized network of meetups. Or, as you say, you know, you put one meetup on a year. What are you hoping for the future? 

J.L

Well, what I've seen, what this happened, has happened in the Netherlands, is that there are several networks now, or facilitators, most of them are organized in a company and around a certain method or a certain tool, like Open space or Agile or Facilitation Academy. And in most of those, future center. And in most of those networks, people participate, who used to be in the IAF network. And I sometimes talk to them and say, why don't you come to the IAF meetings? And then say, well, we don't need an international association. So they are like local organizations for local meetings. And I think it's that's I think I see myself, like as a catalyst. And also in the IAF Meetup group, most of the participants are non Dutch speakers, but they work with consultancy agency or, yeah, or they are self employed in networks as a trainer or a consultant. They don't call themselves facilitators, and I expect that after some time, we will start doing more meetings or sessions on facilitation. But then, you know, this is just my way of organizing. So I don't organize much. I like just things. Things happen all by themselves. They don't need me to to happen and only when you when I'm asked to do something, I do something, that may seem strange, but I think that most of, actually all change processes happen by themselves through everything, even before open space, I thought everything that happens is the only thing that can happen and the people who come are always the right people. You know, I did sessions at an international IAF conference, and only one person showed up at my workshop. And, okay, let's have a one person workshop. And she's still very fond of it. Since I met her again, she's from Turkey. She still remembers that workshop that sometimes you know you your workshops are crowded to 40, 50 people. Okay, your framing creates your situation. So when you frame yourself as an association, you've got Association problems, and I can say blindly, which they are. You have to tend to take care of your members. The members expect you. You have to have a board, and your board will indefinitely expand. You have a certification events, and the certification will also proliferate. You get like a master certificate and a beginner certificate, I already predicted that this is a normal way of working. And as I said, facilitation is not a normal way of working. We are exceptional people ,work in an exceptional situation. 

N.W

Okay, well, I mean, I think there's a really lovely sort of emergent theme, kind of running through the conversation today, which I think it's more about, as you, you said earlier on, about the kind of ,the universe, I think, and how that shifts, and maybe that's how the future of the chapter might emerge and sort of respond. So I think we've had a really great conversation today, Jan thank you so much for your time. If listeners are in the Netherlands, where should they look? You mentioned the meetup, where can they find out more? 

J.L

Yeah, the IAF Netherlands meet up. 

N.W

Okay, so is there a website they need to look for? 

J.L

It's a Facilitator Meetup Netherlands facilitated by IAF Netherlands it's called.

N.W

Okay

J.L

 And there are now 5579 members. 

N.W

Brilliant. And what about if people would like to get in touch with you directly. Where's the best place to find you? 

J.L

Well, you can use it through the facilitator meetup by IAF Netherlands, or send me an email. [email protected]

N.W

Great. Thank you so much. 

H.J

Thank you so much. Jan, it's been really interesting talking to you, and I'd love to chat more, but for today's podcast, thank you very much. 

J.L

Thank you. Thank you for inviting me, lovely to talk with you.

In this episode Nikki talks to Claire Pearce about Journaling and Writing. Claire is a writer and facilitator who runs journaling and writing workshops and she also has her own radio show.

They talk about:

• Why Journaling is a powerful too that facilitators could use themselves;

        “Externalising the internal is probably my favourite expression to describe it”

• Claire's journey with journaling and how it has changed for her;

• How to start journaling and writing regularly;

            “I think just start really small is my main bit of advice”

• How Journaling can be applied in facilitation work with groups;

      “ It's kind of like whatever people share they're ultimately sharing something about being        human”

• The writing activities that Claire uses in facilitation;

• Facilitation tools and frameworks such as the GROW model.

A full transcript is below.

Links

Today’s guest:  

http://ClairePearce.uk

To find out more about Facilitation Stories and the IAF and the England and Wales Chapter:

Facilitation Stories website: https://facilitationstories.libsyn.com/

And to email us: [email protected]

IAF England and Wales: https://www.iaf-world.org/site/chapters/england-wales

The Facilitation Stories Team:

Helene Jewell: https://www.linkedin.com/in/helenejewell/

Nikki Wilson:  https://www.linkedin.com/in/nicolawilson2/

Transcript

N.W

Hello, and welcome to facilitation stories, the community podcast of the England and Wales chapter of the International Association of Facilitators, also known as IAF. My name is Nikki Wilson and today I'm going to be talking to Claire Pearce. So welcome, Claire.

C.P

Hello, Nikki, thank you for having me.

N.W

No problem. So first of all, um, could you tell us a little bit more about you and what you do?

C.P

Okay, so I do lots of things, which I've, I've begun to reconcile myself with. So in terms of journaling, and writing, I run journaling and writing workshops. One workshop I do is more about just writing for fun. And I call it writing for fun, even though it's sort of morphed out of journaling, I'm using prompts and things to get people just to write freely and have a bit of fun with it, and see where their pen goes, which is great for if people are sort of blocked or just want to have a bit of fun writing, heaven forbid. And then the other leg is more sort of self help, I suppose. So I do a monthly workshops that has a theme, like in January, I always do my, what's your theme workshop? So what's your theme for the year? So we reflect back and we look forward and sort of develop a theme or get to something near a theme. So it's that kind of thing. So there's the two different kinds. But yes, they are all with the idea of getting people writing because fundamentally, whether you write,  journal or something in between, it's all good for you. At least it is for most people. 

N.W

And beyond that, obviously, I know you also as a facilitator. So is there anything else that you want to say about your facilitation? 

C.P

I guess, yeah, I do freelance research work. I really enjoy it. I love sort of learning about something completely new, kind of going, Oh, wow, this is interesting. And yeah, so I do that as well. And I do do an odd bit of coaching. And I do have my own radio show. But that is obviously a voluntary,not obviously. But it is a voluntary thing that I do, because I love it. What else Oh, and I write, I've written a few books, I'm writing a few more. And I'm just getting into copywriting. It's going to be another string to my bow, because I've realised I really enjoy it. So yes, lots of things, I'll probably be something else the next time I speak to you.

N.W

I know that's that feeling Claire, don't worry. But today, we are going to be talking about journaling and writing.Both are something that facilitators might do on a personal level, also as an approach that we could use with groups. So thinking first of all about on an individual level, what is it that you feel makes journaling and writing so powerful?

C.P

Externalising the internal is probably my favourite expression to describe it. And that's exactly what it does. And you know, I'm trying to find a way to capture that thing. You know, when people say a problem shared is a problem halved or whatever , there's something so true about that. And whilst it's not as powerful as speaking to a person, because that is the ultimate, you know, if you're struggling with something, or even if you just want to offload doing it with another person, there is something about the energy, I think, that passes out of you to somebody else that's different than if you write it down. But writing it down is the next best thing. And you can do it 24/7, because you've always got a pen and a piece of paper to hand. So you're not having to rely on it, I suppose it is a bit about self reliance, probably a part of my own personal journey with it. But yeah, just getting stuff out so that you can see it in a different way, you get a different perspective. And yeah, it just makes you feel better. And you can, you know, see things that you wouldn't have thought if you had just kept it in your head, you know, it stops the spin cycle. It helps you get a bit of respite, if you know if something is whizzing around in your head like that tumble dryer type effect. It gives you a bit of respite from that. And like I say, you look at it, and you get some different perspective. And just the energy of writing it, getting it out of you releases something, I think.

N.W

Yeah, I mean, I couldn't agree more. Listeners won't know but I'm a regular in your workshops, and really kind of learned the power of journaling over the past year and a half, two years. I think there's also something about the kinds of patterns spotting where I've probably identified things that come up again and again and again. And I have no idea that they were quite so regularly going to be coming up, you know, like, I knew that they'd been niggling away for a while. But when I look back, I think, oh, you know, how is that theme or things related to it continue to resurface, then there's a chance to kind of dig deeper into that.

C.P

And also, depending on how you use journaling, and like you say, if you're the sort of person who will look back and reflect over a period of time, there's so much you can learn. You know, you can see you're likely to see themes and recurring patterns and recurring dynamics and start to see, oh, there's a one common thing here and that's me. So it's not saying everything's my fault, but it's starting to see that there's something about the way I'm reacting or creating something, you know, that is relevant. And yeah, but there's, there's so many benefits, we could spend probably hours talking about all the benefits.

N.W

And so I mean, what's been your own journey with journaling? Have you always journaled or is it something that you've particularly found that has evolved over recent years?

C.P

It's definitely evolved. I probably started journaling properly about, I'm gonna say 10 years ago, without overthinking it too much. But I was in therapy at the time. And my therapist recommended, it was called something like freeform writing for therapeutic something another at the Gestalt centre. I think she still runs it, actually. And I thought, Oh, she's just trying to get a course out of me. I was quite cynical, honestly, because I just thought, oh, writing is not my thing. Because my sister was always the writer and I was more sort of arty, whereas we've swapped which is really interesting over the years. So I went to this writing thing, thinking a bit, feeling a little bit. And I absolutely loved it. And I use some of what I experienced in that workshop as my inspiration for the way I run workshops, because there's a lot of pair work, and it's all about just getting stuff down and sharing it because we're all the same underneath. We've all got the same neuroses and anxieties, and, you know, hopes and dreams, you know, we're not as different as we think we are. And when you share with people, which is what I do in my workshops with the journaling, it's amazing how people connect, and it's almost like I can, I can see the relief sometimes with people where they're like, oh, it's not just me, you know, whatever it is. Sorry, back to my journey. So yeah, I did that a weekend and I just loved it. I made everybody I knew do writing with me, free writing, I suppose, essentially where you just let go into the pen and just keep going. And then I started the workshops. But yeah, so on a personal level, it was just that weekend, the stuff you know, and I always talk about stuff with a little asterisk, which is just all the pent up, unprocessed, unfelt, unacknowledged feelings, emotional responses, you know, all this stuff in me that had nowhere to go, I didn't even know it didn't have anywhere to go. But I realised during that weekend of writing, it's like oh wow there's stuff that needs to come out here. It was really dark. And there was a lot of swearing, and but it was all, you know, you could kind of just go for it. And I really got into it after that. So I'd say that was you know, I had a diary when I was a kid. But it was so dull. I kept one page of it just to remind me how dull it was. I had tea, I went to bed, went to school. It was so dull, I didn't get it. So yeah, and like you say, evolve it, you know, it has really evolved my journaling. And funnily enough, recently, I was reflecting, I haven't journaled anywhere near as much in the last year or so, but I've written a lot more. And I've sort of realised that my journaling has more evolved into writing. So I get the same, I think I get the same thing out of writing that I did out of journaling, it has definitely changed over time. Yeah.

N.W

And so for any facilitators listening who haven't tried journaling before, or perhaps are doing it but aren't aware they're doing it, what would you suggest in terms of getting started, you know, just having a go? 

C.P

Well if they're doing it, and they're not aware they're doing it, then they don't need to do anything, I'd say. It doesn't really matter, I don't think what you call it. If you, if people haven't tried it, there's a few ways in, one of them is just to pick a, first of all, pick a time that works for you, don't try and do it, don't sort of fall into that, oh, I should be able to get up in the morning and at least do half an hour, you know, that never works. So find a time that works for you. It could be on the hoof, you know, it could be like five minutes at lunchtime if you have a lunchtime. So just a time that works for you, just pick you know, think tomorrow when is going to be a good time and pick that moment. And then just write for five minutes. Maybe just write about how the day has been so far. Just just to get started. I mean, a really good prompt is “I noticed” and Nikki, you would have heard me use that before in workshops. But it's a really interesting one because it's completely different. If you just write what did I do today, or it brings up completely different things I notice. So I noticed as a good prompt, I guess it depends what people want to get out of it. Because I'd say whilst ultimately just pick up a pen and write some stuff down. If you're wanting to journal in a way like you do, where you write over a period of time and then you review back and you're looking to learn about yourself or you know your habits, how you do things and learn about where you can make your life easier, really, I'm not going to say improved because I think we're all fine just as we are. But then that's a very different. You might want to be a bit more regular and a little bit more, I'm going to leave it for a month and then I'm going to look back and see what's there. Personally for me, the journaling I've done the most is what I call medicinal journaling, which is basically in the moment. So if you're feeling stressed or anxious or angry, anything that's a bit difficult. I mean some people find excitement difficult so let's throw that in there as well. You know that in the moment ,what's going on? Why am I feeling anxious? Sometimes we don't know. So that's when I am most likely to pick up my journal or get my phone out if I'm out and about and type, you know, just type it in and just describe it. You know, where is it in your body, how you feeling? What's going on? Just what's going on in your life because it can be so obvious sometimes, but you don't see it always. But when you start writing it down, it will pop up. And you'll go, Oh, yes, that's what this is about. So that's really helpful to know. Because then you can do something about it. So medicinal. But then, you know, I say that I started doing that after I had journaled more regularly. So maybe, maybe it's not easy to start with that? I don't know. But yeah, I think it does depend on what you want to journal for. But yeah, I think just start really small is my main bit of advice, because if I had a penny for everybody who said, I can do at least half an hour, and I can get up a bit earlier, that's not much to ask, well, but it's the same with any habit and you don't do it, you might do it for a few days, but then you'll stop. And then you'll feel bad because you've stopped and then you won't do it again. So start with a minute, you know, literally just go a minute in the morning and just go, how am I feeling today? Just name it.

N.W

And I think there's definitely something powerful about getting started as well, actually finding the minute to put the pen to the page, sometimes it then becomes an hour and you hadn't realised, but you would never have intentionally carved out an hour to do it. It's just that once it starts Oh, I can't stop now, maybe that's just me, but.

C.P

Yeah, no, that's absolutely what happens. But if you said, you said I'm going to do an hour, you'd be like, Oh, God, I don't want to do that. That's too much. I've got too much to do, blah, blah, blah. 

N.W

And so thinking more about our roles as Facilitators, and working with groups, I mean, obviously, you've you've mentioned pair work already. But often we're in a situation where we're trying to get people to talk to each other and to interact better. So with that in mind, why would you encourage Facilitators to consider bringing writing activities into a group situation?

C.P

Well, I guess the most obvious place, I would think it would be a great thing would be in a sort of icebreaker context. Because I just think, you know, I've been on lots of workshops, and I've run lots of workshops. And you know, and, and so is everybody listening to this, and so have you, you know, and good ice breaking is so powerful, can change the whole session, whatever, whatever it is. And for me, when people turn up, one of my favourite exercises is what I call ‘The Whine Bar’, which I think you've done, which is just to have a good moan and a good whine about anything in your life, just get it all out. Because I think this is half the problem. We don't allow ourselves to be honest, even with ourselves. And I think journaling has really helped me with that actually going back to your earlier question. So really kind of just getting stuff out. So that's a nice thing to do. Because it just allows people, it's kind of going you're allowed to be human here, I think, I mean I didn't plan it. I didn't think about it before I did this exercise. But on reflection, I think that's part of it. So it's a real, you're allowed to be human, you're allowed to moan. Doesn't mean you're gonna dwell in it for the rest of the session or whatever, but you're just allowed to get it out. And then by putting people in pairs to share, and I always invite people to either share what they wrote, or just talk about how it was because not everybody wants to do that, obviously. And there's just, I think it's, there's just something magical that happens, because when people come back, and I see their faces in person as well, people have such an energy, most, you know, 99% of the time. And you can see they shared something with their fellow human being. Even I mean, I don't know, because I don't get to hear what people say to each other. But it's just that humaneness. It's kind of like whatever people share they're ultimately sharing something about being human, whether it's like, oh God, I felt like it was, like I say, so it's that whole it wasn't just me that, you know, is crazed about the election, or, you know, whatever, or that feels like I'm gonna lose my mind on a daily basis, or whatever it is. And that privacy of the pair, which again, I know, I don't need to tell this to this audience, because you'll all know about, you know, the individual, you know, if you put people in threes, they just won't share as much and somebody could still not talk. Whereas pairs, people have to say something, even if it's, I don't want to say anything. And there's something about that that's liberating. It's kind of like, Yeah, you don't have to fine. So I just, yeah, like I say, when I see those faces, when people come back, it's a beautiful thing. And, and they've just shared something more than, you know, knocking about an idea. And I don't think there's any context that is out of bounds for that, I guess, if you're dealing with people, maybe where people are struggling with mental health, for example, if you knew, if it's an explicit situation where that's being talked about or worked on, I guess you would kind of maybe approach it slightly differently. I probably still do the same kind of thing, but maybe in a slightly different way. But so I think it's really powerful for that and as we work through a workshop, you know,it just continues to do that same thing. People are seen and heard, you know, and people can go a whole year without being seen and heard and you know, immediately even if it's irrelevant to the topic, I think that's the thing as well. It's just the magic of that being seen and heard and listened to and witnessing somebody else, you know, you get to witness somebody else and realise, again, that we're all human and flawed, worried we're getting it wrong, desperate to get it right, all of that nonsense, you know, we realise that it's not just us.

N.W

What is it you say about kind of starting that with some writing rather than just saying, you know, have a good whine to your partner, whatever? What is it about the writing part of it that you think particularly allows for those, that kind of opening up?

C.P

Yeah, that's a good question. So I think when you write stuff down, you can just be much more honest than if you were speaking out loud. You know, if I asked you a question, and you gave me the answer, or I said to you write down what you think about, you're going to be much more, again, 99%, the time you're going to be, everyone's going to be much more honest, in what they write down on a piece of paper, because it's private, it's for them. And I always say to people, you know, write it for yourself, first decide afterwards, if you want to share any of it or not. So it is it's that honesty, it's that, you know, and I can still, I can still edit myself and journal. And I think we might have even had this conversation, but it's still possible to completely be editing yourself, but to suddenly realise I'm still editing what I think and what I'm allowed to say. And journaling does give you that freedom and just think you're gonna, you're going to be more honest. And then when you share it, you're more likely to sort of take a bit of a risk. And people are often quite surprised by what they write down, things that they haven't seen will come out. So people want to share that, they want to go Oh, God, I can't believe I wrote that. I can't believe that, I thought I dealt with that thing. But here it is. And it's, they want to share what surprised them, I think. 

N.W

And so you've talked about the wine bar,as a kind of opener activity. What other sort of favourite activities do you have that you use with groups?

C.P

Well, as you well know, ‘what does the radiator think?’ is probably my favourite, which is where we use dialoguing, which is a journaling technique. It's so powerful and maybe you can say something about your experience. So let's say we've just written about, let's go to the New Year workshop, and you've just written about the year gone by and reflected on this that and the other. And then I'll invite you to sort of go pick an object, and I'm sitting here looking and there's, I'm at my friend's house, he's got lots of gold animals. That's a whole nother story. Anyway, there's a golden parrot sitting there on this lamp, you know, and I might choose, you know, you just pick an object that you kind of are drawn to. And then I'll say right now what does the parrot think about what you've just written. So now I write as if I'm the parrot having just observed me writing about what I've just written about. And it just you have to try it if you're listening, because it's just endlessly useful. And you could literally, every object in your room, every inanimate object in your room, a door, a lamp, ironing board, it doesn't matter what it is, but you'll get something different from each of those things. And a good example of that, is when people pick plants, or trees or flowers, they tend to have like a nurturing voice. So it accesses this nurturing part of them that is always there. Of course, it's always there, but they wouldn't have found that bit of them in another way. I mean, there probably are other ways to find that, but it's just a really quick and easy way. So people will be giving themselves this amazing advice that's going to help them from a plant sitting on their desk. And then they're kind of going oh yeah, I can do this for myself, you know, and it's, it's so powerful. And the perspectives that one gets, I mean, a really good example of this, and it might be a little bit personal, but it was so good that I just have to share it. So I have this whole fantasy family where and it's a really good thing to do for journaling actually where you just pick people who would be your ideal uncle or your ideal grandparents or whatever, cousin ,second cousin, I've got a whole load. And that's just a fun thing to do anyway, it's like a game I made up one Christmas I think just like fantasy family, who would they be? And then I've a few times I've used them in journaling as another dialoguing thing because obviously you don't know those people but you know if you've picked somebody you're familiar with. So Charles and Caroline from Little House on the Prairie are my fantasy parents, probably everybody's fantasy parents assuming people know who they are. So the other day I was really struggling, I've, you know, we've all got these situations where it's just there's no easy answer sometimes and you have to sort of accept there's nothing I can do about this right now. I just have to be within. So I wrote to Caroline and Charles. So what should I do, like what I didn't really say that much about the situation but what should I do? And they replied, and Caroline just went,the mother obviously, she just went go lie down dear, go upstairs and lie down for a bit. Just forget about it. And I was and I know that sounds so simple, because I've had much more complicated and fascinating dialogues with characters but it was exactly what I needed. I just needed to be told just stop, just stop. And that was the end of that conversation. I didn't need anything else. It was like, oh, yeah, and it was so, so useful. So it's just got so many potential uses from something, you know, like that to, to getting the radiator to say to you, you know, you're over worrying about this, just get a grip. Or, whatever it is, you know. And in fact, what was it the other day? Oh, it was something Yeah, it was the radiator. It was something about that the radiator was saying, you know, I'm stuck here on the wall, I can't do anything, I can't go anywhere, but you can, but you feel the same as me. And you know, something like that. It's just kind of like Oh god yeah, there's a real, it really helps to pin down that feeling. Obviously, you can relate that into whatever your session is about. You can play around with it. Let's say you're facilitating something about a strategy for a business, you know, you can ask the business what it thinks. So you could get everybody to talk about it, write about it, whatever about it, and then go right now think about the business, the product, what does the product think, and again, the stuff that can come out of that just can be amazing. So it's got no bounds, that exercise and I will never tire of talking about how fabulous it is.

N.W

In fact, some listeners, if they were there, might remember the very first time I encountered that specific exercise was in an IAF conference workshop. 

C.P

Oh, yes. 

N.W

We were in the depths of lockdown. 

C.P

Yes, we were.

N.W

My lovely radiator was very kind to me and said, you know, that it could see me kind of struggling away being stuck on my own computer. And you know, all of the different things I was doing. And I mean, it sounds, it feels crazy to talk about it in this way. But I would say that it just gave that different perspective. And I think one of the things that I do more regularly, like one of the activities I would do in journaling, is more of a kind of dialoguing now, but it's even more like a conversation with myself. So I'm imagining there's somebody else there going, So why is that? You know, could you tell me a bit about that? You know, again, it sounds like talking to yourself, but

C.P

It kind of is? Yeah, it kind of is really it's kind of, but it's a much more sort of constructive way to talk to yourself.

N.W

Yeah and to work through things I think as well. Like it's progressive, isn't it, it helps me certainly get out of a loop. And I can imagine, as you said, in a business scenario, or you know, work scenario, you can get quite entrenched in your own role in something and actually pulling in that different perspective and going, you know, what does the customer think? What does the factory think? Whatever it is just kind of shakes that up a little bit. Okay. So then, I mean, we've talked quite a lot there about different things that a facilitator could do to introduce some writing into their workshops. Have you got any sort of thoughts or advice on how to convince clients that it's a good idea? You know, if you've got any suggestions for that?

C.P

Do you mean in terms of a proposal for a workshop? 

N.W

Yeah, like giving an outline or getting people to buy into it once you're in, in that scenario?

C.P

But well I think that I'm not sure I'm gonna cleanly answer this question. But I can tell you that if you're in the situation, and you're already there, it's kind of, I mean, again, I think the whole, you know, I've read quite a lot about sort of with mental health and writing and well being and that kind of thing. And you do have to be a bit more careful. But I think as long as you name everything, it's fine. But I did a team building workshop with some pharmaceutical sales reps who were not impressed when it was announced that I was there to do some writing journaling with them, there was lots of folded arms. And it was quite a scary looking room. But I thought, Well, I haven't got anything else so this is what we're doing. And when it just does the work for you, you know, even the first exercise I just said to them, just write about everything you've done to get here this morning. And they were literally all of them didn't stop the pen moving. And I think that's an interesting point, actually, that people who don't normally reflect or don't normally write either or tend to take to it easier, because there's nothing in their way. Whereas you'll find people who write, if you had a group of writers in the room, they'll struggle much more with it from my experience, because they're worried about how they write, they're thinking more about what they're writing and how they're writing it, versus just getting stuff out. So that's an interesting thing to think about. But I still think just sort of go for it. But yeah, they, you know, their reflections and of course, again, I put them in pairs and this was the first just the first thing I did after lockdown in person. And you know, just them getting together in person talking about, you can feel the energy in the room that they just you have to take a leap I think with it sometimes because you're not gonna get people's buy in and people aren't gonna go Oh, yes, please I'd love to do that. It's like, Just do it. And then see what happens. And yeah, there's no situation I dont think I wouldn't do it. And I realised I forgot what your question was.

N.W

It was just more about convincing clients as well. Like if they give an outline, this is what we're going to be doing. How would you propose, particularly if they'd said we want everyone to talk to each other lots. And intuitively, you might assume that if say everyone's writing, they're not really interacting, but you know, we've discussed that a bit, but how?

C.P

Well I guess it is that isn't it, it's like you're gonna get everybody's voice heard in the room guaranteed because you're gonna, A, like we were talking about earlier, they're going to be more honest, when they write stuff down, then when they share, they're going to probably say something slightly different, that's more connecting, not necessarily, but they might, and everybody's voice will be heard, you know, not necessarily by the whole room. But again, when I've done workshops, you know, with some very quiet people, what's brilliant is, is when you come back from a pair, I'm thinking particularly about zoom here, I guess, because I've done more of it in the last few years. And then people will speak for the other people, they'll say, oh, so and so wrote this really interesting thing about such and such, and that person would have never necessarily volunteered to have it. But that person then will share for them and, and you can see, they're quite happy for that to happen. I mean, I guess this could happen that somebody wasn't happy, but I've never seen that happen. So I think that guaranteed to get voices heard for people to open their mouths and speak words, you know, and be involved and get them involved, right from the get go to me would be, that's, that's the thing I would try and sell. But if I felt like they were going to be resistant, I probably just call it something else and not go into detail about what it was, you know, just call it something innocuous and then bust it out when you get there.

N.W

And are there any sort of facilitation tools or frameworks that you think can particularly work well, with journaling and writing activities kind of built into them?

C.P

Yeah, well, I think so I have done coaching and I've used journaling, slash writing with coaching and that you can you know, the GROW Model, obviously, the most straightforward of all the coaching models and people know that model, you can sort of follow that with a situation. So that's how I'm going to self coach myself, that's sort of my go to, apart from medicinal journaling I talked about earlier. So literally, with the GROW, so goal, you know, it's like, what, what's the situation you're in? What do you want to happen? write about that, then the reality bits really interesting, because you can look back at what you've written, and kind of go through and go, Well, what's actually real here? What's my assumption? What, what's my generalisation? What's my judgement I'm making, in what I've just written? And that again, you can see that much easier than if you try and just say it or think it, you know, you just can't separate it out in that way. And normally, by that point, to be honest, I know, in my experience, and I know other people's as well, you already know what you need to do before you've even got probably even sometimes to reality. So that model is quite good. And then of course, if you do carry on options, you can write about options, you can ask the radiator, or whatever it is you choose, in that moment. The problem itself, ask the problem itself, what it would do?, you know, again, using those sorts of things for the options, and then the what's next, obviously, you just have to pick that. But so I guess in a coaching way that model, but you can pretty much use it with any model, I think, to be honest, because you just instead of talking about or brainstorming or whatever, you can just insert the writing where you would put brainstorming or just getting down the facts of the situation, you know, that people are in so.

N.W

Great well, thank you so much Claire . I think that's probably the sort of end of my questions, and I have to kind of curve myself otherwise, I could keep asking all day, which as you know, I'm quite prone to doing. But if anyone who's been listening would like to find out more about your work or get in touch with you, what's the best place that they can do that?

C.P

ClairePearce.uk. So it's CLAIRE, and then Pearce is PEARCE .uk There's no code it is specifically just UK. I've got two names that need spelling out, which is unfortunate. I have thought about changing my name but.

N.W

That would be extreme. 

C.P

Anyway, that's where you know, my email is and all of that stuff.

N.W

 And thank you again, it's been really great to chat to you today.

C.P

No problem. It's been a pleasure. And I hope some of that was useful for people and I'm very happy to answer people's questions if they want to ask me anything about it.

Outro 

H.J

So listeners, we've reached the end of another episode of facilitation stories, the community podcast of IAF England and Wales. 

N.W

If you'd like to find out more about the IAF and how to get involved all of the links are on our website facilitationstories.com

H.J

And to make sure you never miss an episode, why not subscribe to the show on whatever podcast app you use. 

N.W

We're always on the lookout for new episode ideas. So is there a fabulous facilitator you think we should talk to? 

H.J

Or something interesting emerging in the world of facilitation you think listeners need to hear about.

N.W

Then send us an email at [email protected]

H.J

We hope you'll join us again soon for more facilitation stories.

N.W

Until then, thank you for listening.

FS69 Social Presencing Theater with Rosie Cripps

In this episode Nikki talks to Rosie Cripps, a facilitator and evaluator who helps build social movements and evaluate complex systems, about Social Presencing Theater.

They talk about:

• What Social Presencing Theater is, its origins and some of the tools and techniques that sit under it;

• The role of the facilitator in creating psychological safety and responding in the moment without knowing the details of the issue being explored;

• How Rosie first experienced Social Presencing Theater and what interested her about it;

“with social presencing theater, you can get to the crux of the matter so quickly, and so, kind of precisely, and so clearly see what needs to change without barely exchanging any words at all.”

• A workshop that Rosie ran with Ann Nkune at the IAF England and Wales conference using the tool “Stuck”;

“Some people said it made them not just think differently, but feel differently”.

• How this experience led Rosie to attending a recent Social Presencing Theater course and the learning from that experience;

• Rosie’s thoughts on how to take this forward, including a call out for collaborators;

A full transcript is below.

Links

Today’s guest:

Rosie Cripps on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/rosie-cripps/

Today’s subject

Presencing Institute: https://presencinginstitute.org/

U School: https://www.u-school.org/

Arawana Hayashi Social Presencing Theater website: https://arawanahayashi.com/spt/

Social Presencing Theater The Art of Making a True Move (book), Arawana Hayashi

To find out more about Facilitation Stories and the IAF and the England and Wales Chapter

Facilitation Stories website: https://facilitationstories.libsyn.com/

And to email us: [email protected]

IAF England and Wales: https://www.iaf-world.org/site/chapters/england-wales

The Facilitation Stories Team

Helene Jewell: https://www.linkedin.com/in/helenejewell/

Nikki Wilson:  https://www.linkedin.com/in/nicolawilson2/

Transcript

N.W

Hello, and welcome to facilitation stories, the community podcast of the England and Wales chapter of the International Association of Facilitators, also known as IAF. My name is Nikki Wilson (N.W), and my guest today is Rosie Cripps (R.C). So welcome Rosie.

R.C

Hi, thank you for having me.

N.W

So to start off with, could you tell us a little bit more about you and what you do?

R.C

Yeah. So I'm a facilitator and an evaluator. I help build inclusive community-led movements and as part of this, so I've helped teach architecture students, Appreciative Inquiry, and I've been exploring the idea of universities as anchor organisations to help communities become resilient and self-sustaining. And I evaluate kind of complex, messy systems. And I usually do that using outcome harvesting, which uses lots of facilitation. So in summary, I kind of help build social movements and evaluate complex systems.

N.W

Great. And so today, we're going to be talking about Social Presencing Theater. So for listeners who don't know what it is, Please, could you tell us a little bit more about it, and how a typical session might work?

R.C

Okay, so this is very different from my day to day work. First of all, Social Presencing Theater uses mindfulness, movement, and reflection, to create quite dramatic shifts in perspective. So it can be used at an individual level, or with teams, with big organisations, or in quite complex systems around social justice issues, or climate change, or something like that. It was created by Arawana Hayashi, and she's a dance teacher. But it's mainly been applied across sectors by someone called Otto Scharmer. He's an academic at MIT and he basically coded what are the principles of innovation, and he turned them into a theory called ‘Theory U’. And that's all open source, because he wants as many people as possible to be tackling the complex issues of our time. But they together, Otto and Arawana, they co founded the Presencing Institute, and they use Social Presencing Theater as a means for helping people to progress past habitual thought patterns and into these principles of innovation in whatever context they're in. So I personally find Social Presencing powerful, because you can work through very kind of tricky issues where we might feel stuck or unable to move forward very quickly, sometimes taking you to a place of being more stuck. But at least you have different insight. But without having to reveal at any point, what the issue is or what the tricky situation is. And it can be also very bonding for the people who are doing it. So your group that you're working with, it's very bonding, even if you're working with a complete group of strangers.

N.W

And so how might a typical session run?

R.C

Yeah, a typical session. So this is tricky, because I'm new to it. And there's also lots of different methods that sit under it. Some individual based tools and techniques, and some are for very large groups. But they think the way that Otto Scharmer mainly uses it with kind of fortune 500 companies and big organisations is he uses something called 4D mapping, which was co created by I think Otto Scharmer, and Arawana. And people who also use organisational constellations, and people who use presencing more generally. And 4D mapping, basically, you map out a system using people. And then you sense together a different potential future for that system. So it allows you to see in kind of 3D what the system is currently looking like, and how it could potentially shift. And that can be really powerful. And systems mapping, because it's very malleable. I like traditionally in systems mapping, I would kind of draw out a system, and it's very fixed. Whereas in this situation, you're sensing together as a group, where are the opportunities for movement, and that can give a lot of insights into what should change.

N.W

Okay. And so what would the role of the facilitator be in that environment? And how would that be different from other types of facilitation? Would you say?

R.C

Yeah, I think, I think in that context, because you don't always know what the actual topic is, there's kind of two parts to it. So one is it's about making the situation safe, because I think generally, we're not used to moving as a society. We're not used to using movement and so the psychological safety is really important. And then the other aspect is you're going in blind. So you're kind of sensing the room as opposed to, in a normal situation, you can be kind of tracking the flow of the room by listening to people in their conversation them expressing what's, what's going on. Whereas in this context, it's much more about sensing what's happening in the room. And responding to that in that moment. So it's quite different actually supposed to be a lot more emotionally responsive to what they would normally be as a facilitator, I think.

N.W

And, and as you've said, this is quite different to the kind of tools and techniques and facilitation work you'd normally do. So when did you first come across Social Presencing Theater? And what was it that interested you about it?

R.C

So I was reflecting back recently about which of the workshops and where are the places in my life where I've had the biggest personal transformational shifts, and which have been the workshops that have made those shifts last, and they've all involved movement. And so there's two workshops I've been to in my life. The first was in my early 20s, which is kind of a week-long workshop which involved movement. And, again, involved no talking. And then I volunteered at the Never Done Before Festival, which is run by Myriam Hadnes’s community, and just stumbled across a Social Presencing Theater Workshop. And in that workshop, it was online, it was only like an hour, I think.  It was people from all over the world who had never met before. And yet, even in that very short amount of time, we just did some small movements.You know, just sat at my desk, and then also some group movements just in breakout rooms, and it totally shifted my perspective. And I felt incredibly close to the people that I'd been working with, even though I'd never met them before and it was all through a computer. So it kind of made me think, Okay, I'm personally finding this stuff really powerful and interesting. But is that you know, other people's experiences. And before kind of, like throwing myself into that, I guess I really wanted to explore that further, and see if other people were getting these shifts and transformations as well. Which is why, and then I started talking to Megan Evans, he's been a kind of mentor to me, and to Ann Nkune, who I know, to a shared love of Appreciative Inquiry and time to think. So I just literally read Arawana's book, and then suggested to Ann that we run a session at the IAF Conference, which we did this year. So that's kind of how I came to it, it's not been a planned route. But I found it personally very powerful. And it's also linked in to actually, after I had children, I started dancing. And I had a complete shift really, again, in my perspective, when I just I think I lived so much in my mind, when I started dancing, I had this dance teacher who didn't teach us kind of choreographed moves, he just taught us how our body wanted to move. And I didn't know if you can actually even call it dance, it's probably just me moving around terribly, but I found it really powerful and healing, just getting out of my head and into my body. And I think that's a lot of what this is about. It's about just getting rid of those habitual thought patterns and kind of living in our minds all the time. And being in our bodies and noticing that our bodies have a lot of wisdom and knowledge that we just waste, we just waste. And the thing I found with social presencing, is we spend so much time talking especially you know, as in groups, as facilitators, we see so much talk and conversation. Whereas with social presencing theater, you can get to the crux of the matter so quickly, and so, kind of precisely, and so clearly see what needs to change without barely exchanging any words at all.

N.W

Okay. And so you've mentioned that you ran a session at this year's IAF England and Wales conference,with Ann Nkune, and so could you tell us a little bit more about that?

R.C

Yeah, so I mentioned earlier, there's, there's quite a lot of tools that sit under social presencing theater. So our IAF conference workshop focused around a method called ‘stuck’ and in that you take a situation where you're not moving or thriving or something's not moving forward, or maybe you're just kind of stuck in your comfort zone and you you're not really willing to step out. And you embody that situation in whatever form you want to take. You form a statue and you call that sculpture one and then you kind of sense in your body you let yourself move to a different future. that wants to emerge through you. You move to a second position, and then you call that sculpture two, and you give each sculpture a phrase. And that in itself sounds very bizarre, but is very powerful. So for instance, the other day, I had a situation where I had to report a huge amount of data to a group of people. And I was feeling incredibly overwhelmed. And so I put myself in this stuck position where I had my kind of arms up in front of my head, and was almost crouching down, and my word was overwhelmed. And then I moved into a second position, which gave me a lot of clarity. And I had another phrase, which was, they need to make sense of it. And so I in my head, I've been getting stuck over and over with trying to make sense of all these overwhelming amounts of data, when in actual fact, it kind of shift the perspective straight way for me in that I didn't need to be making sense, but I just needed to be presenting them with data. So that's just an example of where you might use stuck. So we use stuck. And then you start off working through your own stuck practices, even from sculpture one to sculpture two. And then you extend that out as a group. So in our workshop, and in most social presencing situations, we don't at any point, know what issue someone is working through. So you'll do your sculpture one to sculpture two on your own, and then you extend that out as a group without explaining what it is that you're working through. And the other people in our group will help extend out our stuck situation. So they become other players in the system. And they help enhance that feeling of stuck, and also give a different perspective on it. So So in my situation where I was stuck with feeling overwhelmed with all this data, I might have someone standing in front of me who's representing all the hundreds of interviews that I've done. And then I might have someone stood behind me, who is representing the people that I have to show all this data to. And then we would move together as a group, so they wouldn't know what this issue is about at all, but they might look at me and say, You look pained or, or I'm seeing confusion, something like that. And then we'd all move together with no idea where each other we're going to move or any sense of where we should move, we just move wherever feels right at the time. And then we'll move collectively together into a second sculpture. And then again, they'll give their perspective on the situation. So they might say, you know, you look freed or relieved or something like that. And the other people's insights can be just as valuable as your own. And I think for me, and our IAF session, that was what people found most powerful is working through something as a group, without anyone in the group knowing what it was about, except for that one individual. And even though as a group members, for example, I've done this a number of times, even in situations where I don't know what the person's going through, I can personally find it very moving as well. I think just by moving together as a group is very bonding in itself and illuminating. So we did that at the IAF conference, we did this stuck on our own and then stuck as a group. And then we use time to think, to reflect on what those processes felt like to the groups involved.

N.W

Okay, and so you've mentioned, I think that this session was for you a bit of an exploration of how to use this. So what were your personal kind of takeaways from that session?

R.C

I think there were a lot of takeaways, actually. I think the main thing was that it was something other people found powerful. So I went in thinking, okay, is this just me, in fact, I was there the night before in my hotel, and I was thinking, Oh my gosh, what am I doing? Because I'm going to a conference I've never been to before, co facilitating with someone I've never met before, on a subject that I've only read a book about. You know,I didn't know whether this is going to be something that anyone else would get anything from at all. So the main takeaway was, oh, wow, okay other people are finding this useful as well. And I think having spoken to a few people after the conference, they said, you know, it's one of the sessions where they were able to go deepest. And again, I think that's because they didn't have to talk about anything that they were kind of working through. So as a facilitator that's quite strange because you're kind of blind to all of that. But it's really nice to be able to create a space where people can work through some quite tricky personal issues. So yeah, there was that, that it was helpful. Some people said it made them not just think differently, but feel differently. And that, you know, someone else mentioned that there's something that they've been talking to people about for months and months and months, and just couldn't see a way out of this situation that then had done that, and then could instantly see a way through. So I was like, Okay, great. I feel like it's, it's a useful tool. So that was the main thing. I also noticed that maybe it isn't for everyone, and getting the context is going to be right. And I think for Ann and I, we both kind of felt that we recognise that it was probably more powerful, like using movement is more powerful than we originally expected. And thinking about how we prepare the room for the emotions, it can trigger as well, I think is quite important. But yeah, just the overwhelming thing I took away was the kind of desire to experiment with other people more, to try it out with other people more. And so then that evening, I think went back to my hotel room and signed up to a course in Berlin to properly train in it.

N.W

Great. And so you've neatly led into my next question, really, about that course, and what happened on the course? And what did you learn there?

R.C

Yeah, so the course was a two day course with Arawana Hayashi herself. So that was really exciting, because she kind of founded it all. And it was with 43 other people from all over the world, actually, but mainly from Europe. I think there were four people from the UK. And we went through all the different types of techniques, which she describes in her book called Social Presencing Theater. And yeah, it was, it was just incredibly insightful. There were lots of different techniques that we tried out, some, you know, just on our own, some as a whole group of 43 people, some in small groups, all that can be used in different contexts. And again, I think by the second day all of us were just feeling like, why would you bother talking anymore? It just seems like such a waste of time, when you can kind of get so much clarity and connection with others in silence, you know, just by moving together. But it's called Social Presencing Theater, but it's not about theater, it is just about moving and embodying. There's no acting element to it. There's nothing theatrical actually about it at all. It's just a way of using, thinking with our bodies as well as our minds. Yeah. So the training was fantastic, gave me loads of ideas and met loads of connections, lots of people who were also thinking about using it in all kinds of leadership scenarios. And actually some massive issues about, you know, tackling climate change and deforestation in the Amazon and all these different frameworks, people using it for and all of them finding it ,yeah, a really interesting method of breaking just habitual thought patterns and approaches to situations and thinking about things really differently.

N.W

Okay. And so I know that you, you weren't on the course very long ago. So this might be a difficult question to answer. But what are your current thoughts on how you might take it forward and put it into practice? Yeah,

R.C

Yeah, so I think main thing at the moment, which is very much just a thought process, to help serve this, but Ann and I are thinking about experimenting, doing another session at London Lab, which is linked to the London IAF group. So we're thinking about doing that in maybe September or October. And I'm personally thinking about how I built it into my work with systems thinking and systems mapping. So it's part of the evaluation work I do, we do a lot of systems thinking work. And I think using it in that context is really helpful, because it's a really malleable way of looking at how we can change and shift systems, but also even the stuck practice, which is just within individuals. You know, through all my systems based work, the one thing that stands out is that unless we change people, you know, we can't change systems. And the stuck practice itself is a way of really helping people shift their perspective on their role within a system and what they can do individually to change things. So yeah, I'm thinking about how I can build into my work. And I'm also just looking for as many people as possible to collaborate with who'd like to experiment with Ann and I on this.

N.W

Great. And you mentioned earlier that in your IAF session, you combined this with time to think, are there other kinds of facilitation tools and techniques that you think could work well alongside social presencing theater if you're building this out into something you would use in other contexts?

R.C

Yeah, I would say on that, that Ann and I used time to think at the end of the session, and we were also thinking about it from an Appreciative Inquiry perspective, because that's what both of us use primarily in our work. Having said that, at the training, it really shifted my perspective, because I think one of the things which they tried to focus on with social presencing is, is moving out of these habitual thought patterns. So they just focus on what did you do? What did you see? What did you feel? And so I think probably, I wouldn't use time to think with it anymore, possibly, or maybe use elements of time to think that not, not use exactly the same principles. And I think that also relates back to the psychological safety element as well, you're never really conceptualising with anyone, what it is you're working through, maybe not even yourself. And I think that's actually helpful, because we get so bogged down in our thought patterns. So I think keeping it very just in the moment in your body, like touching, not overthinking anything is quite important with the process. So yeah, what tools would I use it with is possibly Appreciative Inquiry, maybe as a precursor to that. And then systems mapping and any group work where you're working through individual challenges collectively as a group, maybe it's support groups or something like that.

N.W

That's great. So if listeners would like to find out more about social presencing theater, where should they look?

R.C

Okay, so there's a book by Arawana Hayashi called social presencing theater. I think it's called The Art of Making a True move. There's also a website. So Arawana has a social presencing theater website, which is really interesting. And then there's also this wider context of ‘Theory U’. So Otto Scharmer, and Arawana have a website called the U-school, literally the letter U hyphen school. And that gives a wider framework to the work as well, which is, they have loads of open source training as well, which is really interesting, if anyone was interested in that.

N.W

Brilliant and how about if people want to get in touch with you after this? Particularly as you've got a call out there for collaborators and fellow experimenters as it were.

R.C

Yeah, probably just LinkedIn is best for me.

N.W

Excellent. Well, thank you so much, Rosie. That's been really interesting. And I hope to hear more about where you, where you take this forward. But thank you for sharing where you've got to today so far.

R.C

Thank you so much. Thank you for having me. And I look forward to hopefully hearing to some people who are interested in experimenting.

Outro

H.J

So listeners, we've reached the end of another episode of facilitation stories, the community podcast of IAF England and Wales.

N.W

If you'd like to find out more about the IAF and how to get involved all of the links on our website facilitationstories.com

H.J

To make sure you never miss an episode, why not subscribe to the show on whatever podcast app you use.

N.W

We're always on the lookout for new episode ideas. So is there a fabulous facilitator you think we should talk to?

H.J

Or something interesting emerging in the world of facilitation you think listeners need to hear about

N.W

Then send us an email at [email protected]

H.J

We hope you'll join us again soon for more facilitation stories.

N.W

 Until then, thank you for listening.

This episode is one of our quarterly “Chapter Chats” where the team talks to leaders of other IAF Chapters.  In this episode Helene and Nikki chat to Sara Tremmi Proietti and Andrea Panzavolta from IAF Italy. 

They talk about

• How the chapter began in 2013 and the successive leaders since then;

• Initiatives to extend the reach of the chapter in Southern Italy:

• The co-leadership model used for the past two leadership terms;

“Our jobs are a little bit different. So it's very interesting because we see things from very different perspectives. And this is also always very, very rich, and something that I really, really recommend” (Sara on co-leading with Giacamo)

• The Chapter’s Annual Conference- its volunteer-led model and support provided to people who’d like to run a session;

• Working collaboratively with other Associations in Italy;

• Twinning with other IAF chapters including Romania and Syria;

• Plans and aspirations for the future of the Chapter;

 “we would like the chapter to be a point of reference at the national level for organisations who are seeking facilitator facilitation services or just want to learn something more about it”

A full transcript is below.

 Links

 Today’s guests:

 Sara Tremmi Proietti: [email protected]

 IAF Italy website: https://iaf-italy.org/

 IAF Italy email: [email protected]

Today’s subject

 LinkedIn Article about Co Leadership by Andrea and Deborah: https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/stepping-leadership-iaf-story-deborah-rim-moiso-fmdwf/

To find out more about Facilitation Stories and the IAF and the England and Wales Chapter

 Facilitation Stories website: https://facilitationstories.libsyn.com/

 And to email us: [email protected]

 IAF England and Wales: https://www.iaf-world.org/site/chapters/england-wales

The Facilitation Stories Team

 Helene Jewell: https://www.linkedin.com/in/helenejewell/

 Nikki Wilson:  https://www.linkedin.com/in/nicolawilson2/

Transcript

H.J

Hello and welcome to Facilitation Stories, the community podcast brought to you by the England and Wales chapter of the International Association of Facilitators, also known as IAF. I'm Helene Jewell (HJ) and

N.W

I'm Nikki Wilson (NW)

H.J

And this episode is one of our quarterly Chapter Chats, where we talk to people leading other chapters in the IAF global community. We ask them about how they see the status of facilitation, where they are, and the history, priorities, current projects and aspirations of the chapter. Today, we're joined by Andrea Panzavolta (AP) and Sara Tremmi Proietti (SP), co chairs of IAF Italy, welcome.

S.P

Thank you, Helene.

A.P

Thank you so much for the invitation and also for your perfect pronunciation.

H.J

Thank you so welcome to you both. And to start off with, we would like to know a little bit more about both of you and about the kind of work you do. So if you could tell us a bit about yourselves, that would be great.

S.P

Thank you Helene. Okay, so my name is Sara, and I live in Rome, which is in centre of Italy. I have been working in public administration for over 10 years now, and for the past three years, I've been drawn to the world of facilitation, first attending a course and then starting to work also in in this field, public administration, I focused initially on economic programming, but then I turned more on teams like innovation and process optimization. So that's how I met facilitation, because during an office reorganisation attempt, we met a lot of conflicts and resistances and difficulties with our team. And so I understood that I needed to, you know, to discover and to learn something more about people, about relation, about group working. So that's how I met it and how I am.

A.P

So may I introduce myself, and first of all, thank you for the invitation and for this amazing initiative, because I also listened to the past podcast and were very, very, very well done. I'm not the actual chapter leader. I was the past chapter leader with Deborah Rim Moiso. So thank you also, Sarah, who invited me to join you. And I'm an urban planner and the facilitator, of course, our 20 years that I practise as a facilitator. I'm a founder of the formative collective, that is a project that focuses on the team of non violent communication. And of course, we use the participatory techniques, methods. And I was awarded with the Platinum Award 2020 by the International Association of Facilitator. So I'm very proud about this, in a project that I follow it by region Emilia-Romagna, that is my region in the north of Italy, and the team was about the Community of Practice on participatory policy making. So that's all for me.

H.J

Thank you. Really interesting to hear how you both got into facilitation and congratulations on your award too, Andrea.

A.P

Thanks so much. It's a past award.

N.W

Great. So today we're going to be talking about IAF Italy, which we know had its 10 year anniversary last year. So what can you tell us about how it started and how the chapters developed over that 10 year period?

A.P

Yeah, thank you for the question Nikki .The Italian chapter born in 2013 on the initiative by Giancarlo Manzone and Gerardo de Luzengerger that I imagine you know very well. And from 2019 to 2021 was coordinated by Paola Martinez. That is another IAF member, very active. And since May 2021, has been coordinated by me and Deborah Rim Moiso. And now the coordinators are Sara Tremmi Proietti and Giacomo Petitti. And the chapter started to create collaboration between facilitators, and mainly to explain what the facilitator do. At that time nobody in Italy know the term, the word facilitator. And I was scared to present me as a facilitator, because nobody, nobody could understand what I did. So this is our first mission in that time.

H.J

Thank you. Really interesting. Sorry, Sara, did you have something to add?

S.P

Yeah, I would like to, just to add that the professional facilitator now it's spreading a little bit more in Italy, but still, we have a lot of resistance among organisations. And there is a great concentration of facilitators in the north of the country. So we are our initiative now is also to bring facilitation to the southern regions of the country. And we are quite pleased about an initiative that came from our members, which is a small initiative, because they just decided to have a WhatsApp chat called like facilitators from the South. And the nice thing is that this initiative came from a Canadian girl, who is a member who lives now in the south of Italy, and but, and she's a member of IAF Italy, and she formed this WhatsApp chat, and we are quite proud of this, even if this is a small step, but it does mean something for us.

H.J

Wow, that's so interesting. And also that kind of organic movement of yeah, people starting up their own, yeah? Well, WhatsApp chat

S.P

Exactly, exactly, yeah.

H.J

 And I think what's interesting actually for us is, the more we do these Chapter Chats, we hear a bit of a consistent theme, actually, in this people don't really know what facilitation is. That certainly, when we spoke to Bogdan from IAF Romania, that was one of the things he was talking about as well. So it's definitely and in the UK. So it's definitely not, uh, not something, uh, specific to where we are, which is interesting.

Okay, so, um, thinking then, uh, well building a bit on what you were saying, Sara about, you know, you've got some new initiatives. Can you tell us a bit more about the chapter as it is today?

S.P

Yeah, sure. So the chapter today has about 30 to 35 members, as I was saying before, with the predominance in the north of Italy. So it's like 20 to 22, members in the north, and four of them are certified facilitators. So now we still have two co-leader, a co-leadership. It's me and Giacomo Petitti. We have been holding this role for a year now, so it's midterm kind of. And what we do is we basically carried on the work, the job that was began by Andrea and Deborah, because we hold monthly meetings. So it's pretty regularly. It's like the third Monday of each month we meet. And we also provided IAF Italy with a Zoom account so that we can, we could, uh, ensure you know this regularity. And this is a place, this is a moment of the month where people can meet and discuss and also participate in building and nourishing the community and to identify together goals and activities. So we wanted to be a participated chapter, no. So since we are kind of scattered among, you know, along the country, across the country, we cannot hold, like in person events so frequently. So we have our national event, which is held in Milan every year. So we keep it, you know, online, mainly. And then we we have, like, some activities, like, you know, things that we participate in, in events with other association for the promotion of the participation, or for the promotion of facilitation as well. Like, we went to an event last September in Bologna. So we travel a little bit, me and Giacomo sometimes. And then to, you know, to keep up with members, we have this WhatsApp chat, and then we have a sort of newsletter. We can call it like monthly, where we give, we keep them updated to with the international events and initiatives that are going on into the IAF Ward and yeah and that, that's pretty much it. And then we have, you know, like a specific also, activities that we were following, but maybe Andrea will tell you more later about it.

N.W

And you touched on the kind of Co-leadership model that you follow. What do you, have you found works well in making that work when you're co leading?

A.P

Yes, before the 2021 the chapter had always been led by an individual, but when Gerardo asked me to became the chapter leader, I was very scared. And in that period I had less time to dedicate to the association. So I asked to Deborah Rim Moiso to help me, and she joined, and she was very happy to join this experience. And we together were inspired by experiments in Co-leadership adopted by the global ecovillage network and and we not, we're not sure, but they may have too been inspired by the Kurdish democratic and federalism practices. So this was our approach, and it's very simple. Our co-leadership started, I don't know if now work at the same, but I think it's very similar. And any leadership position is taken at the same time by two people of different genders. So we suggest different genders, both are leader together. And you know, as IAF you need to have only one reference, one the chapter leader, but I was the person who did the senior tour. But for me and Deborah, we have the same power. And for me, was very important to share the season and to share also that after the meeting with the IAF International. And was very, very useful also to define the future strategy, also to when we decided to engage more members from the south of Italy, we decided together this and we decided to to have regular meetings with us, with me and Deborah. We call the coffee time meeting, or the beer meeting, the beer time meeting. So every week, we had a short meeting of half an hour to share ideas and also to share information that we took from from different meetings that we participate. So we shared also the duties you know about, to be a chapter leader. And so was a very good experience, and we suggested this managed model to all the chapters.

H.J

Nice, and for you Sara, does that, is it a model that feels nice working alongside somebody else?

S.P

Yeah, very much. I really appreciated this initiative. And when Andrea proposed me to take the role and told me that Giacomo was in as well, I was really relieved. I was like, Okay, now, now I know that I can do it like this. You know, in pairs. Yeah, I think it's very interesting to be together. And also you can, you know, divide activities, such as the previous one I was talking about, when you have to travel around. And also you can, you know, share meetings where you have to, that you have to attend, but mostly you can discuss and share fears and projects for the future. And also Giacomo and I have very different backgrounds. How are you know, we live in different places, in different type of communities, our jobs are a little bit different. So it's very interesting because we see things from very different perspectives and this is also always very, very rich, and something that I really, really recommend. So I'm really, really enjoying this. And also the nice thing was that at the last general conference, we kind of hosted the conference, which is organised by Gerardo every year. But also we decided to have a session together for a session. So we brought a workshop so we could test, you know, our Co-leadership in person and during work. So that's nice.

H.J

So it sounds great from sort of lots of different perspectives. And yeah, interesting thinking about that diversity perspective that you both bring two sort of different mindsets or different ways of facilitating to your leadership. And I can absolutely, having been passed England and Wales chapter chair, I can absolutely relate to that being a bit scared of doing it by yourself. So if you've got somebody to work alongside with that must feel really good. So the other thing you you've just mentioned again, leading us nicely onto, my next question is about your annual conference. It would be really nice to hear a bit more about about the how that works, about your plans and past conferences as well. You tell us a bit more.

A.P

Yeah, maybe I could introduce some themes related to the past conferences. And what I could say a lot of subjects. We started with ‘the collaboration era’ was the title of the first Italian conference. Was the first conference to make know better the professional facilitator, and to start also the collaboration with different professional you know. At the time, each facilitator was very jealous about his work ,his profession, because it was, was something very precious, so we decided to start collaboration to share experience methods and what what we know. In our conference, everyone bring his or her experience and the share methods could offer a free workshop so you have to share something of your professional experience also. And another theme that I loved, it was “where the donkey falls”. So when you are a facilitator, you do everything very well, but when you start to converge to the, to take the decision, here come the problems. So how we could take good decision, how we could go in the conversing way and respect our participants or the group's members. And after that was very good for me, the covid free editions conference, because we shared all we learned in these months of pandemic situation also about the online. But were moment to share those feelings as professional, as individual, as a member of a family, and what does. Also the last conference we organised were about the facilitate in a few words, so no verbal facilitation. How to use the body, arms? You know, we are Italian. We could was very, very well para verbal. But you never stop to study. You have to improve your skills. So we decide to face this team. And the last in the in 2024 the team was neutrality in facilitation. I mean, it's possible to be really neutral as a facilitator in a group, how you can do to be natural, what methods, what you have to do before the groups works before the workshop or after, to be more neutral. And at the end, one of the most nice for me experience of the conference was the agile and facilitation conference that was there during the European Middle East, original conference of the IAF, so was a very, was an international conference. We mainly, not mainly, all the conference has been organised in Italian language. This was the only conference can I organise in English. Always in Milan was dedicated to Agile. So to work with an agile methods, and also to go in deep in the Agile methods that it's not only for person that work with computer and engineers but it's also good for design thinking, the facilitator. And I don't know if Sara wants to add something more about this experience?

S.P

Yes, thank you  Andrea, it was very exhaustive. Yeah, what I would like to add is more like a personal, maybe, point of view for in a way, because I, as I said before, I met facilitation three years ago. So I just attended a couple of conferences the last two. So the first one was, yeah, the one like facilitating in a few words, and that, for me, was really amazing, because I just met facilitation and I had no idea, like not no idea, but I was very young in facilitation. So experiencing facilitation through the body and through paraverbal was very enriching for me, because I could learn a lot and experiment on myself a lot. And the second one, and the very nice thing for me was that I was asked by Andrea, I think by Andrea, or by Delfino, I don't remember, to to facilitate the open space technology that we always have during the conference. And it was the first time for me, and that was absolutely amazing experience. And in general, the great thing about the conference is that it brings together very different people, and you get to know that, other words, you know, exist in facilitation. And this is something that being new. It's always you know, something to discover. So it's very interesting. And another thing that I would like to add is that in the this year, last conference, which was held in March, the one about neutrality, was organised in a slightly different way, because there was like a preparation path conference. And people were, are kind of supported and not tutored, but supported in their planning and designing of the workshops that they wanted to to offer. And these, and they were like, they were like feedback, attentions, so that people could improve and take care of, you know, details supported by by a team of, you know, facilitators, and these ensured great quality of of workshops during the conference. It was really, really, really high quality. And I believe that it helped also young facilitators to, you know, to offer workshops with less anxiety. I don't know how to say that, you know, so, yeah, that was really, really nice. I think

A.P

If I put up just a very practical thing that is not obvious, the conference is all organised by volunteers, and this is a choice, because the fee is very low, so it's about 180 or 150 euros. It depends about the year. So we want to be very open also to person that are not facilitator, are curious about facilitators or facilitation methods and stories, and that's all.

H.J

Sounds kind of similar to the conference that we put on in England and Wales, actually there's, yeah, definite similarities. Nice. Thank you.

N.W

Brilliant. And so I suppose building again on that kind of peer led nature of the work the chapter often builds collaborations and partnerships, both within Italy and beyond. So if we just start off with Italy, could you share some examples of some recent and current collaborations that you're involved with?

A.P

Yeah, thank you, Nikki for the question. Yes. When I became chapter leader, together with Deborah, we decide to enforce relation with National Association, because we understood that we have to grow, and to grow we have to enforce the relation to know more association that are interested in the same subjects. So mainly we did intervention to explain what I effectively do and what are the core competencies, support, facilitator, and, you know, just to present ourselves and to explain what a facilitator is. We invite all the members of different association to share information and objectives, to find common ground. So we work, in particular with IP two, that is an association in Italy that work on public participation. And if the members are more academic, are more are not professional facilitator, but like to work in the field of facilitator and the public democratic choices. So they are very engaged about what IAF is. And also, we decide to start collaboration with Association like Facilit Ambiente, that is an association, a private association that is offered by the Chamber of Commerce of Milan Monza Brianza Lodi. And it's a sort of service offered for preventing environmental conflicts through facilitation. So they trust in facilitation. They want to support and promote the facilitations approaches and also IAF approaches and the core competencies. So also we work with the open gulf consultation, that is the national consultation, that aim to engage citizens, normal citizens, in the decision related to the government. And there is a national platform, online platform, and you can vote, you know, like this deal, but it's a national platform. So very, very hard to participate because you need, you need to use a lot of personal data to vote before, but for us, was a must. As an international association, as a national association of facilitation, we have to speak also with the Italian government about these, these subjects.

H.J

Thank you. Sara, was there anything to add from you?

S.P

Yeah, just that this, we are with the associate association that Andrea mentioned, the Association for Public Participation. We are now reviewing the Participation Charter, which was elaborated, created 10 years ago. So after 10 years, this charter has been reviewed. And the Charter is a document promoted by IAF Italy, and this AIP through association with other associations that establishes principles and objectives and guidelines for promoting public participation in decision making processes and the process of reviewing this charter just ended. So we will present this work at the Festival of the Participation, which would be held soon in Italy. So we are quite, quite proud of this. And yes, in general, we try to connect with the associate Association in order to spread facilitation, and also to promote the recognition of the facilitator, facilitator profession in Italy, because this profession is not yet recognised here.

H.J

Amazing, Wow. Sounds like you've got lots and lots of Yeah, lots of work that you're doing, and perhaps lots more to do, just thinking about collaborations, but more specifically about the twinning that you've been doing with other chapters. I wanted to ask you a bit more about that. So we spoke to Bogdan, as I said before, from IAF Romania in a previous Chapter Chat and we know that you've twinned with IAF Romania, and you have started, I think, to twin with IAF Syria. And I just wondered if you could tell us a bit more about that.

S.P

Yeah, yeah. We, Giacomo and I, decided to carry on this, this initiative that was started by Andrea and Deborah with the Romania when but we did with this training with Syria. And it was a very, very enriching experience for us, because it could help us expand our horizon, you know, also beyond, beyond the Western culture. And so we had a series of virtual workshop, online workshop with with Syrian, in order to share knowledge, resources and best practices between our chapters. We had four meetings about the first one was like, like, the role of facilitation in post disaster recovery. And this was really interesting, because we exchange different stories, and we could see how different it was to, for example, recover after natural disaster. Like it was like in Italy, because we have, we had a few earthquakes in the last few years that and then we had to rebuild, you know, buildings and communities. Whereas in Syria, they had to rebuild after war, and then also after earthquakes. So we could share this experience, and we would see the differences and the great job that they did, and that we also tried to do here in Italy. And also it was very nice because each, each each meeting, the other meetings, were about the conflict management and cultural diversity. So it was, it was very nice to because there are, there might be great differences, you know, in culture, especially when you, when you compare Italy to Syria. So it really makes you think and reflect even out of the session. You know, you have to think about cultural diversity at the basis of the relation. I don't know how to explain it better. And it was nice because we had the chance to co facilitate. So it was an Italian and a Syrian facilitator. And so it was really enriching and but what I saw and what I really liked is that, because I did facilitate one of these meetings, and it was the openness and the human connection that we could find and share when doing something that we really liked. So it was something that went beyond cultural diversity and went beyond the barrier, also the language barrier that you can meet when you go facilitate. You know, maybe Andrea wants to tell us a few more about the Romanian experience.

A.P

But, yeah, sure. Just something to add about the idea, the idea, when we decide, with Deborah to propose this twinning during a meeting of the European chapter, we decide to propose a twinning that was composed about three, four meetings, thematic meetings. And of course, that will not take more than two years twinning, because, from our idea, also the Chapter must be in charge for two years. And every two years we want to change chapter leaders and as well, co chapter leaders. And so the twinning at this time about the Romania was amazing because was the first twinning so we decided together, also with bogdan and his and their colleagues, we decided also to share how it's different the professional facilitator in Romania and Italy. So starting from, what are your clients? What are your fees? And something very, very practical, but also if you work more in the private or public sector and what you did, what are your institution? So the line was to enrich each other with methods, but also take inspiration how to work in a different way with different clients that together are not you don't know. And so was very fun also to understand that we are in the same boat, so everything is the same in your nation. So a very good experience that I suggest to each chapter to start.

H.J

Thank you. So then thinking about, actually, I just wanted to pick up on one thing you were talking about there, the language, which obviously we as native English speakers have as the kind of luxury, if you like that, when things are in a shared language, they are often in English, which is quite easy for us. How does that, How hard or easy is that to for example, work with Romania, work with Syria and have to use for both of you to be using a language that isn't your own.

S.P

Well, actually, I mean, I do really like languages so and I think it's fun to when you meet someone who is not a native English speaker, to find your own vocabulary, like you build up your own vocabulary, which maybe it's not even English, it's not Italian, it's not Syrian, it's not Romanian, but somehow you understand each other, and that's fun. But I have to say that sometimes it can be a barrier, because, like maybe not all the, not all our members felt confident to facilitate in English. So, yeah, so you really need to encourage them that you will find a way to build up your vocab, vocabulary. And also, I think that during the sessions, there is this, at least for me, like, kind of worried that I may not understand well what people are saying, and maybe I my facilitation could be, you know, so and so. And so, you really need to trust yourself, I think, a little bit more, but also, and that's why I really like facilitation, you can always rely on your co facilitator, so if you or make a joke about it, so if you are two, if it's two, you know facilitators not speaking English as a native language, I think it's a lot easier to to manage that.

A.P

If I could share, I remember my first online meeting with the monthly meeting with the European Middle East, and I was so scared about the language, because I never studied English, so I learned by myself. So I was so scared or what, what I could say with these facilitators, so professional facilitator. And there was, I met Andrew Spiteri, you know, in a breakout room, and he was so polite, so friendly, that I was very relaxed. And after that meeting, I said myself, everything will be okay. Don't, don't, don't be scared. Don't worry about the English. And you can also use para verbal and don't speak.

H.J

Yeah,that's always a fall back, isn't it? Wow, yes, I've delivered training in a different language. Anyway, moving on. So yeah, looking ahead, what's happening in the near future in IAF Italy and yeah, how would you like to see things develop over the next few years?

S.P

Okay, so looking ahead, so our focus, I think, remain on strengthening the culture of participation and participation in general. For sure, public participation is, you know, something that is important for us. And also, yeah, having this thing that I mentioned before that having the professional facilitator formally recognised. So something, yeah, it's like to we would like, yeah, this profession to be seen and understood and recognised at a, you know, an institutional level. This is the general, you know, the frame. So in the near future, of course, there is the next general conference. I know it's we are a year ahead, but it takes a lot of work. And of course, the conference is organised by Gerardo, but it's in collaboration with the Chapter. So we are working on improving the model, the new method that we experimented last year. And so we want to see where it goes if we keep working on that. So with this preparation path, and try to trying to scout a little bit new facilitators and see if they want to put themselves to the test, you know. So that it can be the annual conference, can be a place where people, even less experienced facilitators, can can try it, can grow, can know facilitation better and know themselves better as facilitators. This is Yeah, in the near future. In the long term, I think we would like to, the Chapter to transform into a proper, real, like community, where facilitators can share, can support each other, can network and also create work opportunities together. We what we would like is that people feel free to ask each other for help, for support, if they are short of ideas or about a session or a method or something like that. Then we want people to rely on each other, and we want to facilitate this trust building process, I don't know. And also, we would like the chapter to be a point of reference at the national level for organisations who are seeking facilitator facilitation services or just want to learn something more about it. So we would like to be Yeah, like a subject, someone people facilitators and organisation can rely on and can go and ask for help or information.

H.J

Great. Anything else from you Andrea? Any other thoughts on the future?

A.P

Of course, you know, I'm not now the chapter leader, but I absolutely have some ideas. And Sara had said something very important for me, so support the facilitator and to give them visibility. Organise moment to present facilitator to clients, to to factories, to person that don't know facilitator, and have to know and have to use facilitator because it's better. And when you try facilitator, you ask to yourself, why I didn't do it before. So I want to that IAF Italy support also the professional part of the individual facilitator and for me, it's very important, because in Italy, we need to grow with numbers. And I mean, also in Europe, but in our case, we have to make grow the knowledge of facilitators.

S.P

I would just like to add that, I mean, my personal dream is also, of course, since I work in public administration, to bring facilitation in public administration, you know. So this is something that I try to do, you know, very, very small things in my everyday life, at work, but this is, it's more a personal dream this, but I would like to mention that as well, because I think we really need that. We do have, I think that facilitation is kind of entering institutions at a small, at the municipal level, so, you know, town hall level. But in the bigger institution which I belong to, I don't see that much, and I think we really, really, really need that. And also I think that for the for the chapter, something that we should try to, should invest on is young facilitators, of course, and this is also a campaign that IAF global is carrying on. We know that some of our members did join initiatives that have been carried on at the global level. And we are very happy about that. And I also, I would like to maybe this is also a personal, a personal dream. But I really like the share and learn idea, you know, the series that we have at the global level. And I would like that to have that maybe at a chapter level, maybe Italian, maybe even in a more structured way, maybe easier. So something that not felt like kind of overwhelming by people, but that can be, you know, a way to to exchange between peers,

N.W

Great, well, lots of big plans and you've got a big work agenda ahead of you, but it sounds like some, some great ambitions there, and really interesting different things that you're getting involved in. So just before we wrap up then, where should we go if we want to find out more about you and the IAF Italy Chapter?

S.P

We have a website, and then we also you can reach us, reach us at our email. So the website is, of course, www.Iaf-italy.org , and the email [email protected] so you can always write to us, we always answer and see, check our emails. And you can also write to me. My email is [email protected] and yeah, this is, this is our contact.

H.J

Thank you so much. So I think it just leaves us to say thank you for joining us today, Sara and Andrea. It has been really fascinating talking to you and hearing all about IAF Italy, past, present and future. And hopefully we'll get a chance to speak to you again soon.

S.P

Thank you. Thank you Helene and Nikki for the invitation. It was my first experience, and I'm really happy about it.

A.P

Thank you so much for the invitation.

H.J

 So listeners, we've reached the end of another episode of Facilitation Stories, the community podcast for IAF, England and Wales.

N.W

If you'd like to find out more about the IAF and how to get involved, all of the links are on our website, facilitationstories.com

H.J

And to make sure you never miss an episode, why not subscribe to the show on whatever podcast app you use

N.W

We're always on the lookout for new episode ideas. So is there a fabulous facilitator you think we should talk to?

H.J

Or something interesting emerging in the world of facilitation you think listeners need to hear about.

N.W

Send us an email at [email protected]

H.J

We hope you'll join us again soon for more Facilitation Stories.

N.W

Until then, thank you for listening.

In this episode Nikki talks to Suzannah Lansdell about Public Dialogue.  Suzannah is a  freelance facilitator who also advises organisations on how to do public and stakeholder dialogue, particularly in the science and technology sector for Sciencewise. 

 They talk about

• Public Dialogue as a process bringing together members of the public with specialists and policy makers to discuss complex and controversial topics and gather public insights on the issues without necessarily coming to firm recommendations;

“this is this is not a Focus Group. It's not kind of top of mind views. It's digging behind that”

•  How members of the public are engaged to take part;

• The role of a facilitator in Public Dialogue and how it’s different from other types of facilitation;

• Some recent topics for Public Dialogue including Embryo Research, Future Flight and the role of Data;

• The experience of participants and how this differs from other consultative processes; 

“one of the key things about Public Dialogue as you give people the time to kind of wrestle around the issue and think more deeply.”

•  How information is shared with participants, including striking a balance on the level of detail and the importance of including a diverse range of specialist perspectives;

• Evaluation in Public Dialogue and the focus on monitoring longer term impacts from the process;

• Suzannah’s hopes and expectations for the future of Public Dialogue, becoming more embedded in policy making and democratic processes.

A full transcript is below.

Links

Today’s guest:

Suzannah Lansdell on LinkedIn: linkedin.com/in/suzannah-lansdell-ab23a78

Today’s subject

 Sciencewise: https://sciencewise.org.uk/

 Involve Resources: https://involve.org.uk/resources/knowledge-base/resources

 Involve Methods: https://involve.org.uk/resources/methods

To find out more about Facilitation Stories and the IAF and the England and Wales Chapter:

 Facilitation Stories website: https://facilitationstories.libsyn.com/

 And to email us: [email protected]

 IAF England and Wales: https://www.iaf-world.org/site/chapters/england-wales

The Facilitation Stories Team:

 Helene Jewell: https://www.linkedin.com/in/helenejewell/

 Nikki Wilson:  https://www.linkedin.com/in/nicolawilson2/

Transcript

N.W

Hello, and welcome to Facilitation Stories brought to you by the England and Wales chapter of the International Association of Facilitators, also known as IAF. My name is Nikki Wilson (NW) and today I'm going to be talking to Suzannah Lansdell (SL) about public dialogue. So welcome, Suzannah. 

S.L

Thanks, Nikki, lovely to be here. 

N.W

Okay, so to start off with, could you tell us a little bit more about you and what you do.

S.L

So I'm a freelance facilitator, I've been doing that for about 15 years or so. I started, and so how I got into it just as a bit of context, as it sort of helps a bit with the public dialogue is, I started working for an environment charity back in the 90s. And I was doing a lot of work then with businesses, convincing them that there were commercial implications around environment sustainability issues. But one part of that the charity had was also about consensus building, about how do you get different organisations to approach environment sustainability issues, that at that time in the 90s, were very kind of adversarial in a more kind of consensus based approach. And absolutely core to that was facilitation, as a way to, to break through that more adversarial approach. So then I started working a lot on that and I kind of cut my teeth on some of the big issues of the day, things like nuclear waste, oil disposal, oil infrastructure disposal, biotechnology. So some really kind of big issues where people were on opposing sides and a facilitative approach helped people to kind of have more constructive conversations and find a way through. So that's kind of where I cut my teeth. And then moving on, what I'm much more doing now is that I advise and I support organisations on how they do public and stakeholder dialogue, and particularly around public dialogue work for an organisation called Science wise, that looks at public dialogue around science and technology. But I also do some kind of keeping my oar in on the practice in terms of facilitating citizens assemblies, and other kind of processes involved with the public. And then a little spattering of training in facilitation and a little bit of kind of charity away days, but most of my work at the moment is around the kind of public dialogue in science and technology.

N.W

Okay, great. And that was a very neat segue into today's topic, which is about public dialogue. So for listeners that aren't familiar with this term, what do we mean by public dialogue?

S.L

I suppose in its simplest terms, it's a process where you've got members of the public coming together with specialists and policymakers and other stakeholders to deliberate and have conversations about usually kind of complex or controversial topics. And they do that over several hours, so this is not a focus group, it's not kind of Top of Mind views. It's digging behind that. So you give people a lot of time to think about the issues and to have conversations with those specialists, but also fellow participants. So probably people are maybe deliberating over 10 hours or a couple of weekends. It can be online, it can be face to face, it can be a bit of a mix of both. The key purpose is to get those insights from the public to feed into kind of a decision whether that be a policy or whether that be a strategy. And some people might have heard of the term of mini Publics, so it sort of fits within that frame of mini Publics. And we could talk a bit more about who's the public in this. The key difference that I see with public dialogue is that unlike, for example, citizens  juries or citizens assemblies, we don't usually ask people to come up with or vote on recommendations or come up with specific recommendations. It's much more that they're kind of invited to explore that issue and then there are insights that come from that, but it's not taking it to that kind of final this is what this group of people think and vote on.

N.W

And so who would normally be the sort of Commissioner of the public dialogue who would bring those groups together? 

S.L

It would be a decision maker. So it'd be somebody that has some traction over that issue. It might be that they own the policy or that they own the strategy the public dialogue is feeding into. So that could be a government department, it could be a Research Council, it could be a regulator. So usually at that sort of level.

N.W

And you touched on this a moment ago, but mini publics as it were, who normally would get involved in these, and how would they get involved?

S.L

Yeah, so I think what's really important to know with public dialogue, or indeed any of those mini publics is that these are not public participants that choose to sign up, because they've seen it in their local paper or something, they are kind of randomly recruited to take part in this process. So what you're trying to do is to get a reflective group of the population to be part of these processes, and they're paid to attend. So you're getting over that slight bias that you might have, if you have a local meeting, for example, where just those people with the time and the inclination, and already with an interest in the topic turn up. So you're recruiting them kind of randomly, and that might be that they are approached on the street and it might be that they are approached through some kind of invitation. So usually, for example, on citizens assemblies, they're approached through a sortition approach, which is, you randomly receive an invitation through the post. Most public dialogues, it's recruited sort of on the street. And then you're looking for a kind of demographic, as I say, that kind of reflects the population, whether that be gender, whether that be where people are from, it might be things like whether the urban and rural split, it might be to do with the age profile, so that you've sort of got a little mini public in the room that you're having that conversation within.

N.W

Have you got any examples of recent topics that you've seen covered in a public dialogue, just to bring that to life, I suppose.

S.L

Well certainly. So the science wise work that I work on, it's, I mean, as you might expect, it's kind of around science and tech innovation, sorts of topics. So some of the recent ones have been things like embryo research, and where that goes in the future. Future flight technologies. So there's a whole new area of kind of innovation around future flight and what does the public think about where that might go? BioMed adaptation has been another one. Lots around kind of data, what do people think about data that is held on them or data that might be used? Where are the boundaries around that? And through things like genome editing in farmed animals, so a real range across that sort of science and tech space. 

N.W

So obviously, we've talked about the commissioners and the public involved in this, but this is facilitation stories. So what would you say the role of facilitators is in a public dialogue? And how, in your experience, is that different from other types of facilitation?

S.L

So I suppose, obviously, there's the core basics of facilitation, that are the same, but I suppose, for me, the real the things that really stands out are that, absolutely, as with lots of other facilitation, your view on a topic has to really stand down you can't be seen to influence the process in one way or another. And when some of those topics they're very kind of emotive. Another thing is that because you've got a group of the public there, so I suppose those two things, you're likely to be part of a bigger team. So the number of participants involved in a public dialogue might be, it might be 30, but it may well be closer to sort of 100. So there's a team of facilitators, you've got a group on your table, say if you're just a table facilitator of seven or eight participants, and they're public participants who, it's not like if you were, say, working in with an organisation where you might have a bit of insight as to who's going to pop up on your table, you might have people there who are really not confident in speaking or, or who might have literacy challenges, or who might have English as a second language. So you've got to sort of adapt to that group of participants that you have, and work with them to build their confidence to express their views about the sorts of issues that are under consideration. And then I think this notion that you're part of a team of facilitators, you're all doing the sort of similar process on separate tables, and that is part of a bigger jigsaw piece. So you sort of got to manage how your group is responding to those questions and that plan that you've got, and knowing that you need to kind of get to an output for that specific section, because it fits together into the whole jigsaw piece of the whole process. So I think that that's an interesting dynamic. It's not like you're there and you're kind of controlling the whole space. Of course, I'm talking there about a table facilitator and then there's the kind of facilitator who's kind of orchestrating the whole piece as well. I mean it's fascinating working with the public, that's the bit that I just find so interesting is giving people the opportunity to have their voice heard in these issues and people love it. But as a facilitator kind of getting to the point where people are comfortable to do that is interesting. 

N.W

Yeah, I mean, I haven't mentioned as we've been talking, but I have facilitated in these environments. And I think one of the things that I always find so fascinating is that you can have a whole load of different groups essentially following the same framework and process and they will come out with completely different things, or they will respond to the materials in completely different ways. And you've got such a close comparison, because they're all in the room together with half an hour, or whatever it is, and I just find that fascinating, or I've done some where I've done the same process two nights in a row with different groups. And literally, it's nothing to do with how I facilitated it because I was the same person. But yeah, so interesting to see how different groups respond to the material.

S.L

And sorry, I was just going to say. And also giving people the opportunity, because of course, you've got a mini public there. They, the participants themselves are meeting people that are from all sorts of different walks of life, and seeing how they reflect also on other people's contribution and how that adjusts their views. And again, that, for me, is one of the key things about public dialogue, as you give people the time to kind of wrestle around the issue and think more deeply.

N.W

Yeah, absolutely. And again, I mean, we've touched on this a little bit, but obviously, this can often be about quite complex subject matter, you've given some examples at the beginning, and the participants will have varying degrees of prior knowledge. So obviously, giving them some information is one of the key things in this, what have you seen works particularly well, in how you present that information to people and perhaps not so well? 

S.L

So yeah, absolutely, you kind of have to give people enough information that they can deliberate on it, but not so much and that for me is the real critical point is that it's boiling it down into what is the appropriate level of detail, participants don't need to have a PhD in the topic. And they very quickly, participants really quickly kind of get to grips with what the topic is. So for me, the really crucial things is that you have to have specialists from a diversity of perspectives. So that participants can kind of reach into the corners of the issues and what the different kind of takes are on that. And I know most of the time it is done through some form of kind of presentation. But it's really important to pick your specialists well, that they can talk in an accessible way or brief them well to do that, and make sure that you know what it is that they're saying, that you get to look at their slides beforehand and make sure that it is accessible. It's not kind of reams and reams of really detailed stuff. But other ways in which the worst sorts of information imparting are where you have a really long, dense presentation. So that's designed out. You tend to give it in small bite sized, probably no more than 10 minute type of talks, you layer up the sort of information that you're giving to people so that they've got these sort of bite sized chunks, and they're hearing from different perspectives. But as well as hearing from different perspectives, you sometimes in public dialogues, you can also interview people before the dialogue and put that into provocation, kind of cards or animations or sort of pictorial scenarios so that people can access the information in different sorts of ways. What's really crucial is that they hear from different perspectives, they get a chance to sort of question and interrogate that, and it's not in a kind of overly complex way. So that's the real skill of who's designing the whole process, is making sure that we're hearing the right sort of information enough for participants to get to grips with it, but not so much that they're just listening to reams and reams of presentations, because that's not the point. The point is not to kind of come out with an educated public. The point is, is that we want to hear what participants kind of deliberations and insights on having known enough about the topic.

N.W

yeah, and I suppose almost that instinctive reaction or whatever it is that they have picked out from a presentation that's most important for them is a valuable insight in the first place is that, actually what is it that they're taking away from all of the information they've been given? 

S.L

Yep. What's really nice is if you have the opportunity and the processes, which because they're run over a number of sessions you can often do this, is to ask participants also what might be missing or what they might have to revisit. And, again, if you've got a specialist sort of in the room, whether that's a virtual or real room, using them as a kind of resource to be able to pull on as well is really important.

N.W

Yeah, I think that we perhaps haven't made that clear that quite often those experts will give a presentation but then they are still available to chip in, to answer questions, to clarify bits. So that's really interesting, too. Yeah. And again, so while it's not unique to public dialogue, I think something that a lot of the processes involve is a really kind of structured evaluation. So could you tell us a little bit more about that? And how it sort of fits in the overall process?

S.L

Yeah, yeah and certainly for science wise public dialogue. So just actually, to really quickly scale back. So science wise supports government departments, research councils to do public dialogue and kind of mentor supports those organisations, but also provides some co-funding. So there's always an independent evaluation that sits alongside that public dialogue. And that both I think, quite uniquely, for this evaluation, it sits at the beginning, and it can give sort of formative input throughout the process as it's being designed. But also it produces a kind of summative evaluation at the end. So what is it that participants have felt? What is it that specialists have felt? So gathering all of that data like you might do, usually in a kind of evaluation. So it's more than just observing the sessions, doing a participant survey and reporting on that. And the other thing that I think is kind of really important is, again, certainly for science wise dialogues is that there's a sort of interim report when the dialogue report comes out. But then we go back or the evaluator goes back six months later, and says, right, what was the impact of this public dialogue? And that, to me, is really, really crucial so that you know where has it influenced? You said at the beginning, that this was going to be something that inputted into this policy, or that inputted into this strategy. Six months on what has happened? Have those impacts happened? Have other things happened that have been as a result of that public dialogue process? 

N.W

And I suppose with that in mind, have you got any examples of where you've seen really specific big changes that have come out of those that you can sort of share? So obviously, a lot of them are still in progress.

S.L

Yeah, sure. Well, I suppose the one that quite often is, is quoted and this is going back a little way. I mean if you look at the science wise website, there's always the evaluation reports are up there as well. And they, certainly the more recent ones, kind of capture those impacts. So it might be that it's led to a whole raft of new social science research. But one of the ones particularly that's quoted is around something called mitochondrial transfer, and this was quite a controversial area of research. A public dialogue was held which helped inform. Then the recommendations of what was the human fertilisation embryology authority, the HFEA , who regulates all of that, and that then fed into changing the law on what was allowed in terms of this mitochondrial transfer. Whilst they would have done other stakeholder work, they would have listened to what experts thought about this, actually hearing about what the public thought, whether this was the right way to go, what were the sorts of limits? What were the red lines? What sort of conditions should be in place? Formed a really kind of core plank of then what that recommendation and ultimately, the kind of law change signifies. So it can have some big impacts and what I see a lot with public dialogue, and we'll kind of think about this into the future is, lots of government agencies, or any key decision making authority is really familiar with thinking about how they involve their kind of traditional stakeholders. But thinking about how they really hear from what the public thinks is a more tricky area for them to grapple with. So public dialogue provides one route in which they can really understand, what do the public think about this having had a bit more time to think about it. What drives their concerns or their hopes or their aspirations around this particular topic? And that, for me, is always the missing pieces, like, how are we hearing the public voice in this new development? Because it's not a given that that will always happen. 

N.W

And so, I suppose building on that then, are there particular trends or developments that you're seeing happening currently or on the horizon for public dialogue? Where do you think it could go?

S.L

So I mean, I hope, and I think that there will be a move towards this. Rather than this being something that is a sort of almost optional add on, or specifically for some topics that are quite high profile, or kind of think that they might be controversial, but actually, it becomes a much more embedded part of both policy and strategy. So that rather than ‘Oh, crikey, we need to think about doing a public dialogue’, but it's something that's just automatically built into the policy strategy development process for those topics. So it's not saying that it should be used in every circumstance, but that it's much more kind of part of the normal suite of tools that policy makers will be thinking about, that there's that check. Oh, hang on a minute, how are we thinking about public voice? Do we need to do a public dialogue? Do we need to do some other kinds of, you know , how are we going to get that public insight into the development of our policies? Doing public dialogue is about making better decisions by getting public insight into that process. I think the other thing that I would just say is that I think increasingly, whilst the approach is about making better decisions, better policies, I think it will become more clearly linked with sort of a democratic process that ultimately, certainly, if we're talking about science and tech, whether we're talking about climate change with, for example, citizens assemblies, on climate change,that these are things that are affecting people, participant people day to day. If there's a new science or tech development, it's helping us and a lot of that research is funded by the public. So where's the sort of right, almost for the public to have a more considered, say, in the development of those areas?

N.W

And I think what you say there is interesting as well, because obviously a lot of this is technical information. But in the main, there are ways that people find it does relate to their day to day life in some way. And I think that's another quite important tool potentially, is making it feel like something that people have a grounding in their daily life,even if they don't know all of the technical details, isn't it? So they can deliberate with their own perspective on that?.

S.L

Absolutely, I mean, those examples I gave before, they're about the food that we eat, or about the impact of climate on our infrastructure. They're about what we think is right, or how far science should go. If we're looking at AI, or we're looking at these exciting, but also fast developments that are happening in science and tech, there has to be, and this is why I talk about quite often with the people thinking about commissioning, it's got to align with social values. If it's really out of step with that, I think we saw that a lot with GM in the early 2000s, then people start getting really concerned about it. So what's right? What's wrong? Or how should it go? Where are the sorts of red lines? What are the sorts of conditions under which this technology should develop? could develop? shouldn't develop? Understanding that for a policymaker, or for strategies is kind of gold dust really.

N.W

Excellent, well, I mean, it's all so fascinating, we could probably talk all day about it, but 

S.L

Just scratched the surface .

N.W

Exactly. And with that in mind, if listeners want to find out more about public dialogue, what would you say the best places to look?

S.L

So I would say there's two. Obviously, I've talked quite a lot about science wise, and sciencewise.org.uk is the website,there's a lot there about public dialogue, but also lots of reports from previous public dialogues. And then the other place that I always kind of point people towards is the involve website. So if you just Google involve, and particularly, I think it's involve.org.uk .Particularly their methods and Resource Bank section. So the methods obviously covers lots of methods, but their resource section there is super useful and that will also touch on things which we haven't delved into as much here, sort of citizens assemblies, citizens juries and other sorts of, kind of public participation processes.

N.W

Right. And we can put those links in the show notes as well. And, and if listeners would like to find out more specifically about your work or get in touch with you, what would you suggest?

S.L

Look me up on LinkedIn as a start. Okay, that's probably the easiest, easiest place really.

N.W

Well, we'll put that in the show notes too. So thank you so much, Suzannah, for your time and your contribution today. It's been really interesting to chat to you. 

S.L

Thank you, Nikki. 

N.W

Thank you again. Have a lovely day. Bye.

Outro

So listeners, we've reached the end of another episode of facilitation stories, the community podcast, IAF England and Wales.

If you'd like to find out more about the IAF and how to get involved all of the links on our website, facilitationstories.com. 

And to make sure you never miss an episode, why not subscribe to the show on whatever podcast app you use? 

We're always on the lookout for new episode ideas. So is there a fabulous facilitator you think we should talk to or something interesting emerging in the world of facilitation you think listeners need to hear about send us an email at [email protected]

We hope you'll join us again soon for more Facilitation Stories.

Until then, thank you for listening

In this episode Helene talks to Paul Brand, Director of Risk Solutions and part of the IAF England and Wales Leadership Team, Board member and conference team member.

They talk about 

• The IAF England and Wales facilitators and friends Facilitate 2024 Conference (April 26th & 27th 2024) and what it is all about.

• Who is on the organising team and what Paul's role has been

• What is different from last year's conference
• What kinds of sessions we can expect
• What he is looking forward to
• A bit about the participants some of whom are coming from outsde the UK
• How the IAF England and Wales conferences have grown over the years and what makes them successful
• "it is a bit like a buffet and having taste of this and a taste of that."
• "what really makes me happy about the whole thing, and inspired by it, is watching people enter into it and throw themselves into it. Watching them having conversations with people they've never met and would never meet and, and go away taking whatever it is they've taken from the conference". 

A full transcript is below.

Links

Today’s guest was Dr Paul Brand

https://www.linkedin.com/in/drpaulbrand/

[email protected] 

https://risksol.co.uk/ 

Today’s subject

The Facilitate 2024 Conference

https://www.eventbrite.co.uk/e/facilitate2024-growingtogether-tickets-733547288687?aff=oddtdtcreator 

To find out more about the IAF and the England and Wales Chapter

https://www.iaf-world.org/site/chapters/england-wales 

The Facilitation Stories Team

Helene Jewell: https://www.linkedin.com/in/helenejewell/ 

Nikki Wilson:  https://www.linkedin.com/in/nicolawilson2/ 

Transcript

Hello and welcome to facilitation stories brought to you by the England and Wales chapter of the International association of Facilitators, also known as IAF. My name is Helene Jewell and today I'm talking to Paul Brand,a management consultant whose work focuses on public policy.

He often works on long term engagements across entire sectors for multi organisation communities, and uses facilitation extensively in his work.

He's also an IAF England Wales board member, certified professional facilitator and a member of the conference planning team. Welcome, Paul. Good morning.

It is morning. It is morning. Good.

It is morning. It is morning. So my first question is just to ask you, really to tell us a little bit more about you as a facilitator and your involvement in the IAF.

So I came into facilitation like a lot of people, not quite realizing I was doing it, doing a lot of public policy consulting things, and needing somebody who would lead groups of people through discussions. And then that became a better understanding of what facilitation as a profession was all about. And that grew and grew over the years.

I did a long piece of work in the about 2011 2012, working with a very senior IAF board member. We did a lot of events together, and during that time I understood what the IAF was about and realized I needed to actually make my facilitation skills part of my professional development formally. So I did the IAF certified professional facilitator thing in 2012, which was quite a developmental experience in itself, and I keep that up to this day.

And then over the last four or five years, I've become more and more involved in the workings of IAF, in England and Wales particularly, and have also had the privilege of attending a couple of the european conferences in Paris and Milan, finding out how our colleagues across the channel do it. So it's been an arc of development. Yeah, an arc of development slowly, slowly coming further and further in.

And obviously we're here today to talk about the about conference. So let's start off with the kind of, the basic stuff. So IAF England and Wales conference in April, I guess.

What do we need to know? The dates, where it is, what is it all about? So it is Friday and Saturday, the 26th and 27 April. And for quite a few years now, we've done this Friday Saturday mix seems to balance that. Some of the people, depending on their work and professional lives, some of them can, you know, share those two days, rather than it being two days out mid week or two days at a weekend.

It is in Birmingham it is at a venue called the Priory rooms, which is quite close to the middle of Birmingham. It's very easy to get to, and it's two full days, the Friday and the Saturday. It is quite broadly based.

We had about 70 people last year. As of yesterday, we've got 100 people coming this year, and we're going to have to cap it at 120 for venue reasons, which is a really nice, really nice set of challenges to have. That is.

That is. So there are a few more tickets. We are recording this a little bit before the conference, obviously, but there are, at the moment, a few tickets left.

It's about 20 whole two day tickets left. We have to stop it at 120 because just moving that many people around the venue, because of the safe of it, becomes a limit on that. You can book single day tickets.

So even after full tickets closed, there might be some one day tickets left. There's about ten or 15 people coming on one day or the other, but most people are there for the two days. Fantastic.

And so obviously, a lot of work goes into organizing the conference. I know that we worked quite closely together doing the hybrid conference of years ago. Tell us a little bit about the organizing team.

Who's on it? What do they do? How have you kind of made things work from behind the scenes? So the conference team is all volunteers. Obviously, everything in this group is. It is so two thirds people who are also on the England and Wales leadership group.

So they have wider interest in the if group and some people who just do the conference. The core of it, of course, is the people who put the program together, which is a team of three or four people. And so this year, with this sort of numbers, we're running four parallel tracks during most of those two days.

And there are four very, very broad sort of types of session. They're all interactive sessions. There's no big lectures at this conference, but there's a thread which is learning facilitation tools, techniques, skills, that kind of thing.

There's a thread which are sessions which are about growing and personal development and reflection. There's a thread which is about work and business, professional development, everything from how to run a business, because quite a lot of people are freelancers in this thing, as opposed to working in house. And what the differences are there, even down to, you know, how do we think about charging for our time, depending on the context? And then we've got a fourth thread this year, which is actually on the whole area of diversity, inclusivity, lived experience, and what do we need to learn as facilitators in this generation about how we handle those issues, even if that's not the topic of the discussion.

You might be doing a session on something very engineering or very management based, but how are you managing diversity, inclusion and dealing with people's lived experience in different areas? So there's quite a variety of stuff. There's four parallel tracks. There's no big lectures.

There's some opening and closing sessions and any sense of how many. You probably do know this, I expect it's written down somewhere. But how many different sessions are there altogether? 30 ish, because we're running, apart from the opening and closing each day, we're running four tracks all the time from, like, from when we set off on the Friday morning until Saturday afternoon.

And there's a closing plenary, so there's about 30 dishes to take from the buffet and you can go to about a quarter of those. If you. If you went to a session in every slot, you could go to about a quarter of that number.

But then there'll be other ways of accessing some of that material and talking to other people and stuff. So it is a bit like a buffet and having taste of this and a taste of that. That sounds like there's so much to choose from and that's the important thing, isn't it? You're not sort of channeled in a particular direction.

You can choose what you want to suit you. I would say what's quite interesting, because I was at a session this morning talking with some of the session leaders. We've got quite a few people who are not only coming for the conference for the first time, but they're jumping in the deep end and are doing a session and this is their first contact with IAF.

So that's quite exciting and quite brave of them. It is. I was going to ask, actually, how many people doing sort of offering sessions have not done it before? Because some people do offer sessions sort of fairly regularly at the IAF conferences.

We counted it up last year and we reckoned it split about a third. A third? A third. A third of the people were, you know, connected into IAF.

They were probably members, they were involved in something, that kind of thing. There was about a third who we might count as IAF friends. They.

This wasn't their first IAF event experience. They. Maybe they come to meetups or they'd been to a previous conference or they knew somebody.

And about a third of the people last year, they had just heard of this conference, they just heard of IAF and they came along, and that was their first baptism of fire, if you like. So I don't know if the balance is the same yesterday, but there's certainly, there's that breadth coming that's really nice and really good that there's sort of some, I guess, old hands, if you like, that are sort of really familiar with. Very politely put, helen, very experienced facilitators who are coming back to share their wisdom again and some new faces.

My really strong memory last year was a young woman who came from another country. We'll talk about that in a minute. She contacted us very hesitant, said, I'm not from the UK.

I studied in the UK. I want to come over and see my university friends. I want to come to the conference.

What do you think about me doing a session? Would it be okay? I'm not that experienced as a facilitator, and I'm really new to IAF, so we encouraged her to come over and go for it. She was really quite frightened when she turned up on the day. She was brilliant.

It was a lovely session. It was really, really good, because one of the things that happens is everybody coming to this conference in the past, they realize that they've been on the other side of this. So there's a willingness to explore new ground with someone who's been trying to facilitate something and encourage them and go along with their process and their game or whatever it is.

So it becomes a very positive place even to try something completely new, even if you're very nervous. And I'm sure that will happen again this year. We'll have someone doing that.

And I know I've always felt, when I've gone to the conferences before, really felt that actually, that it's quite, the phrase is a little bit overused, safe space to actually explore and experiment and have a go. And it's a really supportive community, isn't it? So, you know, nobody's going to turn around and go, oh, no, I didn't like that. You know, there may be some reflective comments and all the rest of it, but it's all very, very supportive.

So, yeah, if you are jumping in for the first time, and that's an intentional sort of cultural feel of the conference that I think we've tried to maintain certainly since, I mean, the first one I went to was 2019, and that feeling was already there, you know, and when you've got people who are everything from, you know, the kind of work I do in the public sector with being industry clients, but we've got people who are deeply involved in social. Social interaction, you know, social issues of mental health, all those kind of areas, or they're working with people in deprivation. You've got people working in the private sector, and there's an openness to say this is interesting.

It's not the kind of work I do, but I really found what you did there really thoughtful, and maybe I can translate that back into my world. That's one of the things I love most about these two days. And I guess that's facilitation in general, isn't it, though? It's such a broad array of different, you know, there's so many different ways to look at it, different takes on it.

So it's really nice that there's that appetite to kind of bring that huge range together in one place. Nice. Okay.

And are you able to. I know you're doing a session, aren't you? I was just going to say, could you maybe give us one or two, a flavor of one or two of the sessions you think are coming up? Tell us about your session, maybe from the four tracks. I know there are people coming and teaching particular skills.

I think we've got someone doing some of the ICA facilitation technique stuff and demonstrating some of that. There are people. There's one.

One. Someone's going to do something on the thinking organization, which I'm pretty sure is based on the work of Nancy Klein. Go Google, Nancy Klein thinking organization.

We're going to do one myself and one of my fellow resolutions, Helen and Amelia Wakeford, who's also in the IAF group, we have found as a little trio that a lot of what we're doing now could be put under the very, very broad umbrella of systems thinking. It's thinking about how different parts of an organization fit together to do something, getting people out of siloed organizations in local government or central government or charity, whatever. And it's a big focus in the public sector now, particularly from the chief scientific advisors.

So we're going to do a session that looks at the breadth of what falls under that umbrella of system thinking, everything from rich pictures right the way through to people who actually put numbers and money and things into them. We'll have a little go and we'll probably go into the area of what if the system is complex, or we'll talk about wicked problems and stuff like that. How far can you go with this, especially? Maybe you've got limited time and energy and money and actually start to deal with the complexity in systems rather than simplifying it out and then ignoring it and then wondering why it doesn't work.

Well, it's because you took all the complexity out of it. So that'll be a fun hands on session, and it's something we do a lot of. Brilliant.

I think I quite like the look of your session, actually. The program is coming out for the conference very, very soon. It's being formed up now, so very soon it'll be on social media and everybody will be able to see what's going on.

Great. Okay. What specifically are you looking forward to? I think you sort of mentioned a couple of minutes ago that, you know, that the whole sort of diversity of different, you know, seeing lots of different people doing different types of facilitation.

But what else are you looking forward to from the conference? Probably don't say it being over and you not having to organize it anymore. No, that's not really a big thing. Everybody's tired on the Saturday night.

Yes. Content side. I like the fact that over the weekend I can go to something intentionally that I think I know nothing about what they're going to do.

It's going to be completely alien. Let's go and see. Let's go and play.

Let's go and explore that. And whenever I do that, something completely different to what I do, I always come away with maybe two or three bullets. And I'm thinking, that's really interesting.

I can use that in what I do. The second thing, and I'm going to give you three. Good to have threes.

Second thing is I love watching other people do it. I know people at the conference, but then you go and watch them do a session, and there's always something to learn about it could be the style they do it, the way they talk about it. It could be the method.

It could be this way. I love watching other people facilitate because we don't always get to do that. You know, so often you have to do your stuff and do your way, and watching anybody doing it the way they do it gives you some interesting things to learn.

And then the last thing is, because of the nature of the conference that we've talked about, I'm just really enthused over two days to watch people eating and drinking, if you like. I don't mean the food, I mean the content of the process, the energy we put into organizing it. There is a lot of energy in putting the content together.

But what really makes me happy about the whole thing, and inspired by it, is watching people enter into it and throw themselves into it. Watching them having conversations with people they've never met and would never meet and, and go away taking whatever it is they've taken from the conference. We will never know all the things, but I've really enjoyed over the three or four I've been involved in, watching the people go in, eat effectively, eat and drink the context of the experience, and then go away full and enthused.

And then you watch the communications in the weeks afterwards on social media, on LinkedIn or whatever, you're in contact with them and how the buzz carries on. And, you know, last year we had 70 people. This year we've got 100.

We haven't even announced the program yet. That is word of mouth. A lot of it is people who came last year or the year before and have said they're coming and have told somebody else, and now they're coming, too, which I think is brilliant.

And that says quite a lot about us as a community. I think about how we kind of interact with each other and how we talk about all this stuff. And I do remember thinking about that, your sort of third thing you're looking forward to last year, certainly feeling that energy, and you're right, that buzz afterwards.

And it is a very energizing and, you know, slightly exhausting as well. But there's always two sides of the same thing, but that sort of real energy, feeling very energized. And then, as you say, yeah, just talking about it for ages afterwards and meeting some amazing people, it's a really great space to do that.

Okay. And thinking about the people then that are coming. I think this year we've also got quite a few people, or some people at least, who are coming from outside the UK, quite a long way outside the UK as well.

We're, of course, immensely privileged in running a conference in English as our home language. And never forget that english people, how privileged you are about to have that in that. That means other people, if they've got English as a second language, can come and join in, which is more challenging.

I would be really challenged this week at the conference in Italy because that's going to be in Italian. So we often had people, I remember people coming from Holland last year with Belgium and one of the others. This has been very interesting.

There's someone coming from, if Italy, Tanzania, South Africa, Hong Kong. And we might have somebody coming from one of the Middle east chapters. We're not quite sure.

These are people who've got to get visas to come to the UK. They can't just jump on a plane and come. Those are the four or five.

I know about. There might be others because I haven't seen the full ticketing list. And these are people who want to come and get some of what we've been talking about before and take it home.

So I talked to people last year from one or two other countries. One of their objectives of coming was to say, we've heard about the way this conference runs. We'd like to come and experience it and then maybe take a bit of that back and do that where we are.

And one country particularly, I don't think it had a conference for some years, and this year in May, they're doing one day as a start, but they're going to do that. Another, they don't know they're doing conferences in their country, and they've taken bits of what we've done and said, oh, yeah, we could do a bit like that as well, mold it to their own culture and their own local needs. So that's a real privilege to have people coming in for those reasons.

That's amazing and really good that those people and other people presumably see it, see this conference and see, you know, what's been happening over the last few years when we've been doing conferences as something that is, I don't know, maybe inspirational, maybe, you know, it's something that other people can take something from, as you say, which is really exciting. So it's not just the day or two days. It's got legs.

It's, you know, reaching out a lot further. I went whatever year it was, I went to the european IAF conference, all the european chapters in Milan. And so because it was a european conference, they did it in English, not in Italian.

Normally they do it in Italian, and it had a very similar feel in some ways. They were obviously tapping into some of the same things that we're seeing as valuable in terms of their choice of venue and the way they ran it and stuff. This very, very open approach to conference for facilitation, I think has some real payoffs, real benefits.

And so I think this is about maybe the 7th or so England and Wales conference that we have put on, because I remember quite a few years ago there being sort of large meetups that have slowly, over the years, morphed into actual big conferences like this. And I know there have also been several IAF european conferences as you just sort of talked about. Obviously, they've grown.

They've become, you know, it sounds like they've become definitely more of a, you know, people know about them a lot more. You know, what do you attribute this success to. Why do you think the, if England and Wales conferences are successful, have become successful, hopefully continue to be successful? There's probably a few things.

One is it's easier to do this if you've got a single common language and a big pool you can draw on. So that's easy. There's been a series of leaders in IAF, England and Wales since way before my time, who have started to foster this idea of the conference.

It's only one of the things IAF does, does the podcast and meetups, and this kind of thing being something that the local chapter in the country sees not as a gathering just for the members. It's not a club meeting. It's part of the expression of the IAF aim of promoting the power of facilitation and promoting professional development for facilitators.

And so it's become very intentionally IAF England and Wales, and friends, and the friends are as important as the members in this, in terms of their contribution to the event. So it's a community, it's based around the IAF England and Wales chapter, but it's got a large open tent at the sides. The comparison I did, someone said a little, it's like going to a music festival.

Go to Glastonbury, there's the people who are in the tent. If you go to the big tents of Glastonbury, there's always another 4000 people just around the tent, and they're enjoying the concert and taking part in it as well. And they're just as much a part of it, even though theyre not, or not yet perhaps members in that sense.

But weve got people deeply involved in the conference programme who are not IAF members, but theyre deeply committed to the if England and Wales and friends community. And thats been an intentional principle, at least back to 2017, 1819, somewhere around there. And so its done from an attitude of generosity and giving, you know, as the eye of England and Wales, not as a, a club, and you must be a member.

And all this kind of thing, which we love people becoming members, we love people using the professional development in IAF. I do it all, but it's a possession then to give, not to hold it all tight. So makes it a little bit messier, a little bit untidy, and I think all the better for it.

But if we avoided all the messiness and untidiness, we'd never do anything. We'd have an association that was, you know, constantly trying to work out where its next ten members came from. And I think that always.

It does feel like that's always been. Ever since I've been part of IAF, certainly the England and Wales chapter, there's always been quite an inclusive way of doing things. So all the meetups, you know, invite other people, you know, it's never been an only member's sort of way of doing things.

And I think it's really nice because also, facilitation is huge, isn't it? It's got, as you say, where's the tent stop? That concept reflects the nature of the job we do in facilitation as well. And, you know, some of those people, if you think of it like an onion, people come in, some people come into the edge of it and come to a conference and they go away. We never see them again, or they come to a meetup.

And some people get much closer in. Some people are very embedded in the if England and Wales and friends community, and some of those people become members. We also get people who become members of IAF and come to the community through that door.

And one thing I always say to people about membership is come to receive and to learn, but come to give. If you look at the IAF competencies and principles, quite a few, quite a bit of it is about what you're giving to the profession of facilitation and encouraging other people, particularly, obviously, as you go on and perhaps gain more experience. And you never have a bigger shovel, as they say, when you start giving to a thing like this, you always get back more than you shuffled in.

Definitely. No, it sounds really exciting. I'm really looking forward to coming, and I'm really looking forward to meeting some people I know and chatting about stuff that, you know, we know about.

And also, I think, more importantly, meeting people that I don't know, hearing new stuff, hearing about new ways of doing things. I think it's great that there's, you know, there's four different tracks and four different options. I am going to struggle to decide what to put on my buffet plate because I always do.

But, yeah, really looking forward to it. Thank you so much, Paul, for talking to me today. Any last plugs? Anything else we need to know about the conference before, before we wrap up? I think the big question we're having at the moment in the conference group is, what on earth do we do if more than 120 people want to come next year, what would we do? But that's a problem.

For further down the line, the program is pretty much done. We're now getting into the stage of there's a list of small things that need to be done, like what do we need to print and all that kind of thing. But it's just been wonderful to see the people booking in and the variety of people.

It's one of my most enjoyable weekends of the year. Yay. I'm really excited.

Well, I look forward to seeing you there. Thank you so much. Thank you, Helen.

Good to talk to.

In epsode Bogdan tells us about himself as a facilitator and trainer, what it means to be a playful facilitator and his journey into facilitation. 

He tells Nikki and Helene about how IAF Romania and how it all began, from joining IAF in 2018 to getting intouch with other facilitatrors in Romania. With the start of the pandemic 2 years later and everyone had more time he found out what was needed to start a chapter, and started IAF Romania with Bogdan as the Chair. 

Since 2020 the chaoter has grown to 27 members, with more facilitators wanting to be a part of the community. The growth has happened in terms of quality of events as well as numbers. 

Facilitation is not well known in Romania and not well known in organisations. 

Bogdan talks about engaging new people to the world of facilitation, organising events and enabling people to make connections and talks in more detail about some of the events they have hosted for example Open Space in HR. 

They also have a group mentoring programme and how that works.

They have two types of approaches - one for the community and one for the IAF Romania members. Most events are co-facilitated so there is a lot of learning. 

Some examples of the events are:

Training about having impact in online facilitation - Nelson from Portugal.

Pop up sharing around a particular topic.

Facilitators Studio - where someone can bring a new design to try out.

Facilitator Lab - helping two facilitators to create something together. An example of this is AI and facilitation. 

The core members of 10/12 come up with the ideas for all the events and build the ideas together.

They plan to have their first in person event - a facilitation festival in the autumn. 

Bogdan talks about collaborations with other IAF Chapters and explains how these have worked:

Twin Chapters with IAF Italy

Facilitation Lightening Talks, some of which were with IAF Ireland and IAF Italy

He talks extensively about the collaboration with IAF Japan and the 9 or 10 meetings that were needed to set this up and the cultural learning points. 

Helene asks Bogdan to talk about his role in IAF Europe and Middle East as part of the share and learn team and the benefits of bringing together different cultures and facilitation experience. 

Bogdan talks about what next for IAF Romania - elections, continued focus on mentoring, sending chapters from the Power of Facilitation book out in their newsletter which they have translated into Romanian. 

Bogdan lastly talks about his hope for the future and the facilitation festival. 

To contact Bogdan:

https://www.linkedin.com/in/bogdangrigore82/

IAF Romania:

https://www.iaf-world.org/site/chapters/romania

https://www.linkedin.com/company/iaf-romania-international-association-of-facilitators-romanian-chapter/?originalSubdomain=ro 

The Power of Facilition:

 https://facpower.org/2021/06/01/what-is-the-power-of-facilitation-and-why-is-it-important/ 

Lightening Talks:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XcOrr9Sj17U

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tluzc03l4sM

Celebrating Diversity with IAF Japan https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FctxQou8F9w

Find Helene on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/helenejewell/

Find Nikki on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nicolawilson2/ 

Listen to our podcasts: https://www.facilitationstories.com/  

Email: [email protected]

In this episode Helene talks to Deborah Deborah Rim Moiso from SessionLab about their recent survey and report.

Deborah shares her experience as a freelance facilitator and discusses her mentoring program with IAF and her passion for facilitating multistakeholder projects on nature conservation, climate change, and youth training.

She talks about how in 2022, the first global survey of facilitators was conducted by Session Lab, gathering data on who facilitators are, where they are, and their age. It was initiated by Session Lab to address the lack of data on facilitators, despite reports existing for other professions like UX design.

This survey looks at Facilitation trends and insights from a global survey. 

Facilitators were surveyed globally, with 1000 responses from diverse regions, including Japan.

The report was well-received, with new questions added to better understand learning pathways to facilitation, and feedback from contributors and experts.

Deborah talks about the role of expert commentators and how they condensed the data and provided insights, asking questions and challenging assumptions to open discussions and conversations.

Deborah describes some of the key findings from the report including Facilitation industry trends and AI adoption.

One standout reflection from the report is the generosity of the facilitation community in providing answers, despite the lengthy survey process.

Deborah discusses some of the other insights from the report including:

• Online vs in-person sessions
• Facilitators delivering shorter sessions
• Representation, professionalisation and diversity
• The facilitation industry and accreditation programs
• The importance of including younger perspectives in the facilitation profession

  To contact Deborah: email [email protected]

  To read the 2024 State of Facilitation Report: https://www.sessionlab.com/state-of-facilitation/?utm_source=IAF-Podcast&utm_medium=referral&utm_campaign=sof

  To help SessionLab promote the project: https://www.sessionlab.com/state-of-facilitation/promo-kit/

  If you have any questions about the report or the data behind it, or want to contribute to the next edition, get in touch with us at [email protected].

Find Helene on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/helenejewell/

Listen to our podcasts: https://www.facilitationstories.com/  

Connect with us on Twitter: @fac_stories 

Email: [email protected] 

In this episode Helene talks to Jamie Colston - father, facilitator, poet and systemic constellations practitioner about his work using Systemic Constellations, both Family Constellations and in organisations. 

He talks about how he got into the work in the first place, the training he has done and the practise he does and some of what he has coming up next.

He shares some examples of how he uses it and in terms of facilitation he suggests it is most akin to Open Space Technology. 

You can find Jamie here: https://www.linkedin.com/in/jamiecolston/ 

Jamie Colston https://www.jamiecolston.com/ 

Centre for Systemic Constellations - https://www.thecsc.net/

The Whole Partnership - https://www.wholepartnership.com/

Today we’re introducing a new quarterly feature “Chapter Chat”. As many listeners know, the England and Wales chapter is just one of the many IAF volunteer-led chapters globally, all working within 6 regions across 65 countries. While all chapters are united under the IAF vision and operate in accordance to the IAF Code of Ethics they are all run in a slightly different way, and reflect the context they’re working within.

So alongside our episodes capturing individual facilitators’ stories, each quarter we’re going to chat to people leading other chapters, about how they see the status of facilitation where they are, and the history, priorities, current projects and aspirations for their chapter.

To kick us off, we have a special episode reflecting on a year of facilitation in the EME region, where Helene and Nikki talk to Tamara Zivadinovic Regional Director of the Europe and Middle East Region of the IAF.

Tamara talks about her own facilitation practise, how she got involved in IAF and her her journey to becoming Regional Director. 

She explains to Helene and Nikki what are your main responsibilities are as regional Director and what has been happening in the Region over the last year.

She talks about celebrating the many IAF volunteers and about her proudest moments as Regional Director.

Tamara shares what is coming up in 2024, her hopes for the region and finishes up with an ask for the members of the region.

You can contact Tamara on: [email protected] or find her on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/tamara-zivadinovic-4975384/