Welcome back to Fierce Calling! In this episode, host Doris sits down with Melissa McLaughlin, an author, teacher, and speaker, who writes to uplift and inspire followers of Christ.. Melissa opens up about her faith journey, including her unexpected bout with debilitating health issues that led her to an unexpected and unplanned early retirement from her teaching career. What could have been a season of loss became a time of deep spiritual renewal, as Melissa rediscovered her identity in Christ and found new ways to connect with God through scripture-based prayer.

Out of her darkest moments came her first book, In Dark of Night When Words Fail, Voice of Jesus, Pray for Me, designed to help those who struggle with prayer find their voice again through scripture. Melissa also shares how her second book, The Whole Bible Devotional: Seeing Jesus in Every Book of the Bible, was inspired by her own challenges with reading the Bible all the way through, and her desire to help others see the big-picture story of Jesus woven throughout all the books of the Bible.

Join us for an encouraging conversation about hope, identity, and the power of God, Who creates beauty from ashes. Whether you’re in a season of uncertainty, desire to deepen your prayer life, or looking for fresh ways to engage with Scripture, Melissa’s story and resources will inspire you to keep seeking God’s purpose—no matter what twists and turns life may bring.

1. Introduction to Melissa McLaughlin

2. Melissa’s Personal Faith Journey

3. The Impact of Health Challenges

4. Rediscovering Identity in Christ

5. Losing and Regaining the Voice to Pray

6. The Birth of Her First Book

7. Transitioning from Teaching to New Ministry

8. Encouragement for Listeners Facing Unexpected Change

9. Struggles and Strategies in Reading the Bible

10. Creation of the Second Book: The Whole Bible Devotional

11. Teaching as a Calling Beyond the Classroom

12. Practical Guidance for Bible Reading and Study

13. Process and Discernment in Selecting Devotional Scriptures

14. The Transformational Power of the Project

15. Central Themes of Her Devotional

16. The Need for a High View of Scripture and Christ

17. Addressing Modern Misconceptions About Jesus

18. Encouragement for Listeners in Difficult Seasons

19. Resources and Ways to Connect with Melissa

20. Closing Thoughts and Exhortation

You can connect with Melissa at melissamclaughlin.org

Email – melissa.melissamclaughlin.org
X/Twitter – https://x.com/MMcLaughlinsong
Facebook – https://www.facebook.com/melissa.mclaughlin.7906/
Instagram – https://www.instagram.com/melissamclaughlinwriter/
Pinterest – https://www.pinterest.com/MelissaMcLaughlinTruthfulGrace/
Amazon link to The Whole Bible Devotional – https://a.co/d/cPXLDlU
Amazon link to Whisker, Wags, and Woofs – https://a.co/d/4D3jF1B
Amazon link to In Dark of Night When Words Fail – https://a.co/d/iunv6Hr

Melissa McLaughlin is a writer, teacher, and speaker. She loves encouraging others through her faith and words. Having retired from her career as a public school teacher, she now writes and speaks about her passion, Jesus Christ. She holds Bachelor’s Degrees in Elementary Education and Special Education, as well as a Master’s degree as a Reading Specialist. In addition, she earned a Certificate in Foundations of Biblical Studies, which complements her teaching degrees as she writes to uplift and inspire followers of Christ.

Melissa co-hosted a Writer’s Workshop and numerous Bible studies and prayer groups at her local church. She is currently hosting a summer Zoom Bible study with people from many locations.

During the darkest seasons of her life, Melissa lost her voice to pray. God led Melissa to use Scriptures to articulate her prayers. Melissa’s voice was restored, and her faith was reignited. Melissa’s powerful prayer strategies are included in her first book, In Dark of Night When Words Fail, Voice of Jesus Pray for Me.

God inspired Melissa to write her second book, The Whole Bible Devotional: Seeing Jesus in Every Book of the Bible, after struggling to read through the Bible with her family. Her goal with this book is to help others with today’s busy lifestyles grasp the Bible’s main message and see Jesus throughout the Scriptures.

Melissa has won several awards, including the Selah Award for her essay in the compilation, Whiskers, Wags, and Woofs: Poems and Heartfelt Essays for Dog and Cat Lovers; the Silver Selah for her article in Refresh Bible Study Magazine; the Christlist Award for The Whole Bible Devotional.

Melissa enjoys walks in nature, soaking in the sights and sounds of God’s wonderful creation. One of her greatest delights is spending time with her husband, young adult children, and family. Melissa and her husband have two cats who fill their days with laughter and cuddles.

Check out Surrender the Joy Stealers: Rediscover the Jesus Joy in You 6-week Bible study rooted in John 15. You can find more info at https://dorisswift.com/book/

Find my free resources including Fear Fighting Bible Verses, Simple Tips for Sharing Your Faith, Surrender the Joy Stealers, Step Out of Your Doubt and Into Your Calling ebook, and more on my dorisswift.com homepage!

Did you know that following, rating, and leaving a review over at Podchaser or Apple Podcasts helps others discover the show too? I would so appreciate it, friend!

Check out my speaking page, grab my flyer, and let’s talk about me speaking at your next women’s event…

I hope this episode encouraged, inspired, and challenged you to cultivate community, live and walk in the value, purpose, and worth God gave you, and take action where your passion, compassion, and conviction intersect.

If you’re looking for a speaker for your next women’s conference, retreat, luncheon, or workshop, reach out and connect with me on my speaker page at https://www.womenspeakers.com/florida/edgewater/speaker/doris-swift

Let’s have a chat about your next event!

Stay tuned for more amazing content and remember to check the show notes for all the links mentioned.

Thank you for being a part of our community. We are grateful for your continued support and encourage you to embrace the unique gifts that make you magnificently you.

I hope you’ll join me next time when I talk with another guest who is taking action where her passion, compassion, and conviction intersect …

Until then friend, have a blessed week, and I’ll talk to you soon.

With love and joy,

Doris

P.S. Don’t forget to follow us on social media for bite-sized wisdom and inspiration from Doris and our incredible guests!

Doris [00:01:43]:
Welcome back to the show. I am excited today to introduce you to my friend, Melissa McLaughlin. She is a teacher, a writer, a wife, mom, speaker, prayer leader and an overcomer. I love that so much. She’s an author and her passion is pursuing Christ with biblical truth, spirit filled grace and fervent prayer which we so need. And I would love to tell you a little bit about her books she’s written. During a dark season in her life, which Melissa may share some about, she lost her voice to pray. So God led her to write this book so she could articulate prayers through scripture and it’s helping others to do the same.

Doris [00:02:41]:
It’s called in dark of Night when words fail, Voice of Jesus, pray for me. So. So in dark of night when words fail, voice of Jesus, pray for me. That’s beautiful. And also God inspired Melissa to write her second book, the Whole Bible Devotional Seeing Jesus in every book of the Bible, which is amazing because she had struggled with, you know, reading the Bible and getting through it and, and she is going to share all about that too. And now she’s helping others to be able to read scripture and be able to get through the Bible and have a new and fresh perspective and understanding of what they are read, reading in the word of God. So I am excited about this conversation today. Welcome to the show, Melissa.

Melissa McLaughlin [00:03:25]:
Thank you, Doris. Thank you for having me. I’m so excited to be here.

Doris [00:03:29]:
I am excited to have you on and talk about not only your books, but however the Lord leads. I would love if you would share a little bit about your story and how you’re currently taking action, where your passion, compassion and conviction intersect, your fierce calling.

Melissa McLaughlin [00:03:48]:
I love that. I, I just love your podcast. I love the theme of it and just how you’re pulling together all these elements of our lives and how God uses all these parts of us, you know, in powerful ways. So just to give a tiny little bit about my story. I was blessed to grow up in a Christian home, thank God, and gave my life to Christ as a young teenage and about in the college years. That’s when I really, I felt like I, my faith became my own. I took hold of it to a new level. I became a teacher, was married my husband.

Melissa McLaughlin [00:04:25]:
We have three children grown now on their own. Wonderful kids. Blessings. And it was during my teaching career I thought that I would be a teacher to the last day. I loved teaching, loved the kids. I still love learning. So just the whole process of learning and growing and stretching and learning new things, I just loved being A part of that as the teacher. But when I was about 50 years old, I had had back problems all my life.

Melissa McLaughlin [00:04:58]:
And when I was about 50 years old, I had a setback with my health that was totally debilitating. I was not able to drive or sit or do much of anything. Even basic living tasks were really difficult. And so I was, I was forced to take an unexpected and unwanted early retirement from my teaching career. And I really, really struggled with that. Wondering, like, just God, why aren’t you healing me? You know, what are you doing with us? I felt like I had been really gifted by God to be a teacher. So I didn’t understand why I was being taken from this place where I thought I was using my gifts and my talents. So I just was really struggling with a lot of things and just the physical pain as well.

Melissa McLaughlin [00:05:48]:
But it was really in God’s mercy because in that time I felt like I had lost so many things. I had lost my health, I had lost my job, you know, with the early retirement and I. And in the course of that I realized that I really felt like I lost my identity. And God in his mercy was actually like peeling back these layers of things that I, I was clinging to as my identity that really weren’t true. And so when everything else was gone and I was left with the Lord, I, I realized like he is my identity. You know, I’m a, I’m a child of God, you know, I’m a blood bought daughter of the King and that’s who I am. And my identity is based on Jesus and his finished work, not on my work, you know. And so it, you know, it became my faith just took on a new beautiful color and hue and facet in, in those moments of pain.

Melissa McLaughlin [00:06:50]:
But I’m not going to say that that happened overnight. That was a long process because in those, those dark moments, that’s when I really, I didn’t lose my faith by the grace of God, but I did lose my voice to pray. I felt like I had prayed everything that, that I could say and there was just nothing left. And so the Lord very gently, really just led me back to the Scriptures. And first I began praying the scriptures, reading them out loud as my prayer. And then I began taking portions of the scripture and re rewriting them in my own words as a prayer, in a prayer format. And it was like God restored my voice. And for the first time ever, I felt my, my prayers were so empowered because God’s words were coming through my words, you know, as I was praying back to him.

Melissa McLaughlin [00:07:39]:
And so he just did a beautiful work in my life through all of that. And it was in, at that point then that I was thinking, gee, I wonder if there’s someone else who’s going through a really hard time, maybe is struggling to pray because they’re going through so much pain. I wonder if this would be a help to them. So that’s where God took my passion for teaching, my gifts and talents for teaching, the compassion, which was, you know, coming from a place of really hurting and then putting that together to try to help someone else. So that’s my, my first book came out of that really low valley point in my life and a whole change in my life because I could never, I. I thought I was going to teach to the end. So I never, ever saw anywhere on my radar that I would be writing or that I would have a Christian blog or that I would have written, written books or be part of a compilation. It just, I couldn’t have imagined that.

Melissa McLaughlin [00:08:37]:
So God did something totally different with my life than I expected. And all of that came. It was the beauty from the ashes, really. Yeah. But yes, that was that first book, which is called In Dark of Night, When Words Fail, Voice of Jesus, Pray for Me. So that was that first book that was, that I first wrote from that time. And it’s really just a prayer guidebook for how to incorporate scriptures into your prayers. And it could be because you’re struggling to find the voice to pray, or it may also be because you would like to refresh your prayers or real reignite your prayers, you know, or.

Melissa McLaughlin [00:09:17]:
Or empower your prayers with God’s word. So it can be a blessing to many different people. I believe so. But that’s really how God took different parts of my life to use for his glory and also for my good. You know, I couldn’t have said that at the time, but I can say that now, you know.

Doris [00:09:38]:
Yeah, that is really beautiful. And you know, sharing about how this all kind of unfolded and it’s still unfolding because we just never know what God’s going to do next. But I love the things that you brought out and how you said that your early retirement was unexpected. And to encourage our listeners, we can see now how Melissa’s story began unfolding in different ways that she never could even have thought or imagined or asked, you know, and that’s what God does exceedingly, abundantly above what we ask or think. And so when you had mentioned that, the thought came to mind, you know, to just the encouragement that nothing is Unexpected for God, like he knows what’s going on. He knows what’s going to happen. So it wasn’t unexpected for God, even though it was unexpected for you. And I know we’ve all had things in our life that we just never expected would happen.

Doris [00:10:40]:
Good things and not so good things, but it’s never a surprise to God. So I love that. And how you brought out the fact that sometimes when we do something for so long, we can really get that confused, that it’s part of who we are. I mean, it’s part of what we do, but it’s not our identity. And so we have to be really careful because when those things leave or go, whether we walk away or something happens where it’s, you know, beyond our control or things like in your case that happened with your health and all that, we aren’t kind of putting our foundation in that. You know, it’s kind of like the wise man built his house upon the rock and not upon the sand. And so. So it was great that you brought that out.

Doris [00:11:32]:
I think that’s going to encourage someone right now because we. We can really look and see how God’s faithfulness has brought us through, but also, we just never know what he’s going to do. And. And it’s important for us to share our stories because time and again you hear so many stories, and especially, like, people who think, wow, maybe I’m of a certain age, and it’s like, that’s it for me. But that could just be the whole beginning of something brand new, you know, because there’s nothing new under the sun. But then God makes all things new, so it’s kind of cool. So I. I love that so much and how you help people to use scripture to pray.

Doris [00:12:12]:
But then you came upon this other struggle that you had as far as, like, reading through the Bible. And you love the Word of God, but even we love the word of God. Sometimes it can be challenging. So if you could share a little bit about how that came into play in your life and how now you are helping others to do what you have learned to do through the Lord’s leading.

Melissa McLaughlin [00:12:38]:
Yes, absolutely. So with my second book, it was another example of God working in these valley moments of my life. So I’m just backtracking a little bit. When I was about 16 years old, that’s when I first read through the Bible myself. I had heard that if you read three chapters a day, you could read through the Bible in a year. And I did. I didn’t, you know, there were days when I missed and I just picked up where I left off and kept on going. And there I didn’t understand all the big words.

Melissa McLaughlin [00:13:09]:
I didn’t understand all the theology, but I did draw closer to the Lord. I. I felt like I just felt more closer to him through doing that. And I continued reading the Bible, you know, reading it through or reading Bible studies or portions of it all through my adult years. So when my kids became teens, about that same time frame, I thought, oh, this would be great. I would love for them to have that same experience reading through the Bible from beginning to end. So I said the same thing. I said, hey, let’s read through together.

Melissa McLaughlin [00:13:45]:
We’ll do three chapters a day. We’ll all have a great time. And they were on board, they were excited. And we jumped right in and we started and then sputtered out and started again and tried to pick up where we left off, but eventually we just lost all momentum and gave up. We gave up. And I just. I felt so disappointed by that. I felt like I had let my kids down, I had let myself down, and I let the Lord down by not helping them experience that reading through the Bible, but in that place.

Melissa McLaughlin [00:14:22]:
I feel like in that place of sorrow, God planted this little seed of hope, you know, and that hope was that he could take even that and use this to help me help others who might be in a similar situation. So it wasn’t until after, actually several years after my first book was published and I was included in a compilation of other book of other stories that I was finally able to write my second book. And that’s the book that has recently been published, which is called the Whole Bible Devotional. Seeing Jesus in every book of the Bible. And what I did, that still came from where my heart was, still back in that place where. And it doesn’t have to be a young person. It could be someone of any age where maybe they don’t have the time or just are not in a place where they can pick up, you know, a heavy theological manual or they’re just not able to read from beginning to end. Or maybe there’s plenty of people who have actually read through the whole Bible from Genesis to Revelation, but they get to the end and they can’t put the pieces together.

Melissa McLaughlin [00:15:33]:
They can’t see how this whole thing connects because it doesn’t. You know, it’s hard to see how those pieces connect. So. So God had just used that time in my life, and then I had, when I was at this new place in my life I was able to work on this and he again was using this whole teaching background that I have. This book consists of three main parts. The first part of the book, it is a non academic overview of the Bible so that people can get that big picture view and they can also see in that overview how Jesus is woven through every book of the Bible. The second component of the book is that I took excerpts from each book of the Bible. There’s 66 books in the Bible, so there’s 60, 66 excerpts, scripture readings, and they are representative texts.

Melissa McLaughlin [00:16:28]:
So you can, so each reader will get some important themes and topics and scriptures from each book of the Bible as they read through. Then going along the third piece of it, going along with those scripture excerpts, I have written a prayer and in that prayer I really try to highlight how Jesus is a part of this scripture passage that was just read. So in the course of 66 days people can read portions of the whole Bible and get that whole Bible view, see how Jesus is woven throughout and, and, and just get to experience God’s word in a fresh way that is not overwhelming, that is accessible, that is doable, and that helps to make it all come together and make it make sense from beginning to end.

Doris [00:17:19]:
So yeah, that’s amazing. And ti. I just also want to emphasize the teacher part because you know, you were trained to be a teacher. You went to school to be a teacher and you were a teacher for many years in a certain capacity. You taught different grade levels and really loved that. You love doing that. And then when you had to leave that, you, you felt like you were losing it. But God had other plans.

Doris [00:17:48]:
He’s like, you’re still a teacher, Melissa, you can still teach. It just may not look like what you thought it was going to look like. And, and I love that. And it kind of reminds me too because I thought I was going to be a teacher. I always wanted to be a teacher and I just wound up going in a different direction. But I still get to teach. So it looks different than what I thought it would look like. And so I think too, by your story, it’s, it’s a, like just something encouraging that we can look at how things are unfolding in our lives but not limit it.

Doris [00:18:28]:
Because God is limitless. Right? So when we limit what God can do in our lives or you know, just by our own mind, I mean we can’t fathom. I mean God’s ways are higher, his thoughts are higher. You know, we can’t really fathom some of what God has in store. But, but he does and we can trust him. And you writing this book where you’re helping to get people to connect the dots of the big picture story of Jesus and how, how it all points to him, you know, I think that’s so powerful and I think too it will encourage others to have a newfound enjoyment and love for reading scriptures, you know, reading the Bible, you know, digging in and actually studying the Bible because it’s a little different when we read through it and there’s a time for study and there’s a time for reading through because if we’re trying to read through, because that’s kind of where I would get hung up. Okay, so I start and I’m like, oh, that’s fascinating. I’m going to study this part and I’m going to look this up and I’m going to get this, you know, different resource and that resource and kind of figure out, oh, I wonder what that means in the Hebrew, I wonder what that means in the Greek, you know, and then I get kind of stuck on that passage.

Doris [00:19:48]:
And when it’s really, if I’m reading through the Bible, it’s really like having a plan is great because then you have a plan so that you can actually read through it. So there’s a time for reading through it and taking it in as kind of like one big meal and then there’s a time for studying where you can take bite size pieces whereas not taking things out of context and just being able to focus on the entire what’s happening, you know, where is this taking place, who’s the audience and all that. So I wonder how. Well, I’m sure it was the Holy Spirit, but, but how you kind of nailed down the 66 scriptures, you know, parts of scripture that you were going to put in this.

Melissa McLaughlin [00:20:40]:
Well, this took, this book, took about five years, okay, to write. And so part of it was when I said I had this book in mind and I, I set out to do. I, I actually, my husband and I read through the Bible almost every year like a one straight through. In addition to just devotional readings and other things like you’re saying those bite size readings where you’re savoring, you know, one scripture, really meditating on it. But I had set out to start this book, I set out to do a slow reading of the Bible. So I read one chapter a day rather than three chapters a day. I read one chapter a day and at the end of that chapter I would pray and just ask God, please highlight for me, you know, through the Holy Spirit. Highlight for me what is the main theme or the main verse that you feel like I should take away? What would be your takeaway? God.

Melissa McLaughlin [00:21:36]:
And so then I kept that in a journal. But when, then when. So I did that for each chapter. Then when I got to the end of that book, I would take all of these that I had collected. And now I had to pray and say which one or one or two God have me use for that entire book to represent that book. So that was a very slow process. Then when I collected all of those for each of the 66 books of the Bible, I also then compared them with study Bibles that had, you know, main topics and important scriptures. I compared them with other biblical sources, reference books, so that I could see what other, you know, people that had a, you know, certainly have more Bible foundation than I do.

Melissa McLaughlin [00:22:20]:
I want to see what, what God laid on their hearts. So when those, sometimes they matched up with what, what the Lord brought out for me, but sometimes they did not. And so in that case I would just pray about it, you know, God, what would you have me to include here? So it just really was a lot of Bible reading and studying and prayer to select the, the verses. But I was certainly, I did certainly have that idea for looking for the verses that would really help illustrate or highlight how Christ is a part of this book of the Bible. So of course that was always my, that’s the overarching theme, you know, of the Bible, obviously the overarching theme of my book. So I definitely was looking for the Scriptures that would help highlight that.

Doris [00:23:06]:
Yeah. Wow. Well, that was great. And the way that you did that over the course of five years. So when we think about it, it’s like, well, patience is a fruit of the spirit. So we don’t want to rush things that are not meant to be rushed. I think in this world. I’m thinking of Rebecca George.

Doris [00:23:27]:
I just had her on the show and she wrote that book, you’re not too late. She talks about a hurry up world. You know, we feel like we have to always hurry up, like we’re behind or it’s too late for us, we missed the boat, you know, that kind of thing. But it’s, it’s not. And so for you taking this time to also is administering to your soul too when you’re going through this. This was transformational, wasn’t it?

Melissa McLaughlin [00:23:54]:
Yes, truly. It truly was. Yeah.

Doris [00:23:57]:
So when you started doing that were you had, you already had that book in that you knew you were going to do the book, right? Or was it that you did this and then it became a book?

Melissa McLaughlin [00:24:11]:
No, I really had in mind that I wanted to write something that would help people. So I really had the book in mind. I didn’t know all the elements yet, but I knew that I wanted to find representative scripture excerpts from each book of the Bible to make it more doable so that you could read through in 66 days, almost like you would read through a devotional. But instead of reading my words, you’re going to be reading God’s Word, you know, so that was my idea from the beginning. And then the prayer, I used the. I wanted that to add the prayers so that it wouldn’t just be an intellectual activity, also be an opportunity to really connect with God in His Word and through prayers. So the prayers were a really key element, and I knew that that was also going to be part of it. But it was.

Melissa McLaughlin [00:24:59]:
I think it was actually my husband was saying, well, you. One of the ways you could pull it out is make sure in your prayer you’re bringing out how Jesus is a part of that passage. So really made that my goal. But yes, I really had this in mind. I think it was that teacher side of me that wanted to help if someone else may be struggling either to put the pieces of the whole Bible together. Yeah, maybe they would like to read the whole Bible, but, you know, they’re not. They just don’t have the time, you know. Yeah.

Melissa McLaughlin [00:25:29]:
So. Or, or, or they’re just not in a place for that right now. So I felt like this was just. I wanted to create something that would make it doable for people to get that big picture view of the Bible, Read excerpts from every single book and pray about it. Pray, connect with the Lord and then again, really see how Jesus is woven through that. He’s not just part of the New Testament, but he is like the beginning of John says, you know, in the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, the Word was God. So we get to see, really take a closer look at how. How he really was God from the beginning and see that.

Melissa McLaughlin [00:26:08]:
That beautiful golden thread woven through from Genesis to Revelation. So I really did have that in mind when I set out to work on that book.

Doris [00:26:18]:
That’s beautiful. Yeah. And the fact being that in the beginning was the Word. And so that beginning is different than we think of our beginning, you know, or what does beginning actually mean? It’s like beginning was always. Jesus was always there. You know, the Trinity, Father, Son and Holy Spirit were always there. Even from the beginning in Genesis, we read that. And so, and, and I also love to.

Doris [00:26:40]:
The fact being that God had equipped you to be a teacher and teachers write lesson plans, you know, so you had that mind of a teacher going into it of how you had the pieces and trying to see how to put it together. And I know he helped you a lot with that because the Holy Spirit was there to help and remind us of all the things that Jesus has said and to bring him out. But the fact being that people can really then realize and read and things that they hadn’t really thought about before, that maybe they’ve only studied Jesus when he became flesh, the incarnation, you know, that was the only time maybe that they’ve really, really felt like they were learning about or knowing Jesus, whereas it, it was way before that. So that’s, I really love that. And the fact being that you are doing all this through a scripture, through a biblical lens, a scripture view instead of some. And I’ll have to say there are some teachers out there that are getting away from the Bible, you know, like actually encouraging people to read their Bible and go to the Bible. And there’s so many, you know, different teachings now that uses the right kind of terminology, but it’s not really like scriptural, biblical, you know, it’s like not referring back to the Word. I mean, we need the Word.

Doris [00:28:12]:
We need the scriptures, you know, God, you know, the Word. So anyway, so that’s really powerful and I love that you do that and help people to get a newfound love or even hunger, because I know we can also pray for that. Right, Melissa? Hunger for the Word.

Melissa McLaughlin [00:28:30]:
Yes, absolutely.

Doris [00:28:32]:
Yeah.

Melissa McLaughlin [00:28:33]:
So important, so important that. To pray for that. Yeah. And I appreciate what you said too, because we really want to make sure that anything we’re hearing, whether it’s a teacher or a preacher or something on the Internet or social media, we really have to go back to, to the Bible and filter it through God’s Word because His Word is eternal and it is the final authority. I mean, he’s the author.

Doris [00:29:00]:
Yes.

Melissa McLaughlin [00:29:01]:
Of our, of our lives. He’s the author of history, he’s the author of eternity. And so he is the authority. And so that’s why scripture has authority. And so we want to take any question, question or something we hear someone teaching, we’ve got to take it back and filter it through and say, where is this in the Bible and what does the Bible truly say? And even people’s understanding of Jesus himself, which is another thing I was trying to get at in the Book was to really understand Jesus in the fullness of Scripture, the fullness of who he is. So he’s. Yes, he is the little baby. He came in flesh like the little baby, but he.

Melissa McLaughlin [00:29:42]:
He grew to a man and took on our sins on the cross. But that’s not the end of the story. He rose up in all power and authority and dominion and victory. But also he is not only our Savior, he is also our Lord. And he is the righteous ruler, he is the righteous judge. And at the end, the Bible says at the end of our lives, we will stand before him and give an accounting. And so people kind of like this all we’ve, I mean, and I’m, I, I’m guilty of this too, so I don’t want to blame anyone else. We all would rather have the Jesus.

Melissa McLaughlin [00:30:15]:
We just want the mercy. Yes, we just want giveness, but we forget that his righteousness and his justice, His Lordship, his holiness, like everything about him, is what makes him who he is. And actually, when we understand his holiness, his power and justice, his perfection, that’s when we understand the depths of the sacrifice that was made for our sin. So it’s like if we have a very low view of Jesus, we’re really missing out on the greatness of his love for us, the greatness of his sacrifice, and yes, indeed, the greatness of his lordship, you know. Yeah. That he is, he is the eternal and living God. And you know, the Bible says the fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom. And that’s the kind of thing that in, in our modern ears, it, it, we feel like that’s, that’s not right, but that’s what God’s word says.

Melissa McLaughlin [00:31:18]:
And that’s like a fear, that’s like a reverence and an awe and a recognition that only God is God. And so just having that high view of God. Yeah. Having that view of Jesus, like you’re saying Father, Son, Holy Spirit, having the high view of Scripture, it helps us really not only see God and Jesus and the Holy Spirit in, in all his glory and majesty, but it also helps us again see the, the magnificence of his love for us. I mean, the God of the universe has created us in his image and has poured out his the blood of Heaven, you know, to pay the penalty for our sins, so that by faith we can receive that gift of salvation for free. He’s done it all. He’s paid the price. I mean, it’s just incredible.

Melissa McLaughlin [00:32:13]:
I mean, the more we gaze at His Majesty, the more we understand that that Term of amazing grace. Yeah. How sweet the sound that saved a wretch like me.

Doris [00:32:24]:
You know, so precious.

Melissa McLaughlin [00:32:26]:
Yeah, so. So again, I. Part of my goal was that I would be able to help people see Jesus in the fullness of who he is throughout all of the scriptures.

Doris [00:32:36]:
Yeah, yeah. And I, I really love how you brought that out, you know, that really where to be awestruck, you know, with the majesty of God and worshiping him. And yes, the fear of the Lord and a reverent fear, as you were talking. Because sometimes the messages we hear are very, very leaning toward just all grace, grace and love and God is love. But there is also the repentance and the turning from sin and have in our sins are washed white as snow. But Jesus is the only way for that. And so that’s very confusing too. There’s a lot of mixed messages out there, you know, that there’s many ways, you know, to God.

Doris [00:33:33]:
And that really is not the truth of the gospel. The gospel says that Jesus, I am the way, the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father, but, you know, by me. So Jesus said that himself. And so if we are going to worship him as king, even though he came as a humble baby, but he is King of kings and Lord of lords and what you brought out, that he is not only our Savior, but he is our Lord. And so that is powerful. And it. There’s a difference between those.

Melissa McLaughlin [00:34:08]:
There is a difference. And I really, like I was saying, I think the more we understand the fullness of who he is as Lord, the more we can cherish that he would humble himself to become our Savior.

Doris [00:34:22]:
Yeah, it’s just so humbling. And really, when we think about it, it just is really mind blowing to think about it, you know, in that way. What the truth is, you know, that we, we’re children of God, you know, and this is, this is part of our story. Like this is our heritage. This, we are daughters of the King. We are, we are God’s children. I mean, that is so powerful. And so I just love that your ministry is one that your heart is to help people to see that in the big picture story and see how we fit into that story.

Doris [00:35:05]:
You know, we’re part of that story. So that’s really precious. So, Melissa, this has been amazing and I wondered if you could share maybe one last bit of encouragement. I know you’ve had a lot of things in your life, beautiful things that have happened, and you also have had a beautiful experience of having a special needs brother growing up and So I just, you know, I can’t help but think that your books too are going to help families with, you know, maybe they have a child who has special needs. You know, these kind of resources can really help them to see Jesus, you know, and to understand. And so if you have maybe a little bit of encouragement you want to share before I have you, share where the listener can connect with you and any resources you might have to offer.

Melissa McLaughlin [00:35:55]:
Absolutely, yes, absolutely. I just would first like to say if anybody is listening and you’re in a painful place, whether it’s physical pain or emotional pain or maybe relational pain, whatever the case may be, I just want to say I’m sorry for what you’re going through. And I just encourage you to lean on the Lord. Lean on the Lord. He collects our tears in a bottle. He is with us, he sees us. He loves us more than anyone else. And that just to remember that he can still take those broken places and use it for his.

Melissa McLaughlin [00:36:32]:
For his glory and for our eternal good and in ways then that can minister to others. And I feel like the ways that he has used my life in the broken places is an example of that. And he doesn’t use everyone’s broken places in the same way. But I just encourage you to lean on the Lord, receive His love and wait on him and have hope because he’s not finished with us yet.

Doris [00:36:57]:
Amen. That’s very encouraging, actually. So wonderful. Well, thank you for sharing that. And what was on your heart to share with someone who’s listening today that really needed to hear that encouragement. And if you could also share, Melissa, where the listener can find you, how, how they can connect with you and find your books and whatever else you have, resource wise. And you also have your blog posts that they can read, you know, also. So how do they do that?

Melissa McLaughlin [00:37:26]:
Yes, absolutely. So the first place to find me is at my website or my blog, which is melissa mclaughlin.org and if you’d like to subscribe, which is totally free, one of the little giveaways is that you’ll get an excerpt from my first book as a free gift and it has a free sample scripture prayer. And so I just encourage you, meet me there. And all of my blog posts, I have devotionals and prayer articles on prayer articles on Bible studies and also poetry thrown in there too. So all of it is free. You’re welcome to read through for any post that may minister to you. I’d love to have you subscribe. There’s a contact page there.

Melissa McLaughlin [00:38:09]:
You can email me if you have specific prayer needs. I’d be happy to pray for you. You can also find my books there. My books are also available on Amazon and all of the major retailers as well. So. Yeah. And I can. And they can also hit find me on social media.

Melissa McLaughlin [00:38:27]:
I’m on X slash Twitter. Used to be Twitter. I’m on Facebook, Instagram, and also on Pinterest. So I’d love to meet anyone who’s listening. And may we just keep encouraging each other in our walk with the Lord. Great.

Doris [00:38:42]:
Amen to that. Yeah, we want to encourage one another and lift each other up. I think I quote 1st Thessalonians 5:11 in every show because it’s so important, you know, for us to do that. And so I love that so much. So thank you so much for being on the show. It’s just been a pleasure having you. And I hope if you’re listening right now, that you will check out the show notes, because I’ll have those links for you in the show notes so you can find Melissa and find her books and her resources and everything. And I hope to have you back on again sometime.

Doris [00:39:13]:
This was fun.

Melissa McLaughlin [00:39:15]:
Thank you so much, Doris. I would love to be on again. Thank you for your min.

Doris [00:39:19]:
Thank you for yours. And I know you have more to come. God is doing a mighty work. So also be encouraged if you’re listening today, that like Melissa said, God is not done with us. And you may think that you’re hitting the end of the road of something. Something might be coming to an end. But when we look at something as an ending, we can also look that there is a beginning that can start right after. So it’s just kind of maybe a segue into something new.

Doris [00:39:47]:
It doesn’t necessarily mean something ending. It’s like you’re still going to be able to use your gifts and talents and how God has equipped you all along. And you might have been doing things for something else, he was actually equipping you for down the road for such a time as this, as it says in Esther, so fierce friends, thank you so much for listening. And I hope that you will join me next time when I talk with another woman who’s taking action where her passion, compassion, and conviction intersect. Until then, friends, have a blessed week, and I’ll talk to you soon.

Welcome back to Fierce Calling! In today’s episode, I welcome a very special duo: mother-daughter team Donna and Charity Amidon. Donna—an accomplished author, speaker, and Bible teacher—returns to the show to talk about her impactful book, Tracing His Promise: Understanding the Bigger Story of Jesus and What That Means for Us. But this time, there’s a creative twist: Donna’s daughter, Charity, an exceptional artist and illustrator, joins the conversation to share her unique role in bringing this project to life.

Together, Donna and Charity reveal how a simple Advent family tradition grew into a beloved Bible study—one that seamlessly connects Old Testament Scriptures to the promises fulfilled in Jesus. We’ll hear behind-the-scenes stories about how illustrations that started as small doodles at the kitchen table grew into the artwork that now graces the pages of Donna’s book, as well as full-color Christmas ornaments, inviting families to create meaningful Advent traditions.

You’ll also get practical ideas for using the book at home, in small groups, or as part of your church community, plus inspiration on how to use your own gifts to impact others for Christ.

Whether you’re looking for hope in God’s timing, new ways to engage with Scripture, or encouragement to pursue your calling, this episode is sure to uplift you. Let’s dive into this heartwarming conversation about faith, creativity, advent, and God’s faithfulness across generations!

00:00 “Book Discussion with Charity”

07:31 Divine Preparation and Small Beginnings

11:46 Art, Passion, and Impact

14:00 Mother-Daughter Art Collaboration

18:04 “Illustrations Enhanced with Color PDF”

20:51 Bible Study Book’s Progression

23:19 Exploring the Old Testament Together

27:10 “Fulfilled Prophecies: Hidden Treasures”

30:17 Empowering Youth Through Faith Sharing

34:37 “Passover’s Symbolic Link to Jesus”

37:49 Faith’s Universality Through Art

40:24 Trusting God’s Perfect Timing

43:19 Trust God’s Timing

47:30 Gratitude and Future Invitations

You can connect with Donna at donnaamidon.org, where you’ll find out more about the book, her blog, and speaking.

Follow & connect on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/donnaamidon_/

Follow & connect on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/ignitetheheart/

A graduate of Southern Evangelical Seminary, Donna is an author, speaker, musician, and lover of all things Bible. For over two decades, Donna has been helping women engage with the rich truths of Scripture and apply them to everyday life.
 

With a heart for the local church, Donna has served as a Bible teacher, worship leader, radio broadcaster, small groups director, and pastor’s wife. Donna brings Scripture to life with clarity, heart, and just the right touch of humor, leaving her audience both challenged and refreshed.
 

Donna regularly shares at women’s conferences, retreats, and church gatherings. She also serves as a Spiritual Fitness Coach with Back to the Bible, where she hosts short video messages to encourage Christians in their spiritual journey.
 

Her first book, Tracing His Promise, invites readers to see Jesus throughout the Old Testament and discover God’s faithfulness from creation to the cradle.

Donna and her husband, Ryan, live in Virginia with their adult daughter and teenage son.

You can connect with Charity and find her amazing art at https://www.luckydogart.com/

Follow & connect on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/amidonartstudio/

Follow & connect on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/luckydogart/

https://www.donnaamidon.org/tracinghispromise

You can find the downloadable PDFs with the ornaments at the back of the book (pg. 297) via a special QR code!

“Tracing His Promise is a powerful, biblically grounded study that reveals profound connections between Old Testament Scripture and the coming Messiah who was born in Bethlehem and is undeniably Jesus. Throughout the study, Amidon illuminates for the reader the significance of events, prophecies, and people of Old Testament times, and not only how they connect directly to Jesus’s birth, but also how Jesus was present from the beginning of it all. Amidon engages readers through thought-provoking questions, impactful illustrations, and deep insight. She invites families to incorporate the Jesse Tree into their Christmas traditions and provides creative ideas and downloadable ornaments to help them assemble their own Jesse Tree. Amidon’s passion is evident at every turn of the page, while she helps her readers make golden-nugget connections hidden in plain sight. This study is unique and impactful! Don’t miss it!” —Doris Swift, host of the Fierce Calling Podcast and author of Surrender the Joy Stealers: Rediscover the Jesus Joy in You

Check out Surrender the Joy Stealers: Rediscover the Jesus Joy in You 6-week Bible study rooted in John 15. You can find more info at https://dorisswift.com/book/

Find my free resources including Fear Fighting Bible Verses, Simple Tips for Sharing Your Faith, Surrender the Joy Stealers, Step Out of Your Doubt and Into Your Calling ebook, and more on my dorisswift.com homepage!

Did you know that following, rating, and leaving a review over at Podchaser or Apple Podcasts helps others discover the show too? I would so appreciate it, friend!

Check out my speaking page, grab my flyer, and let’s talk about me speaking at your next women’s event…

I hope this episode encouraged, inspired, and challenged you to cultivate community, live and walk in the value, purpose, and worth God gave you, and take action where your passion, compassion, and conviction intersect.

If you’re looking for a speaker for your next women’s conference, retreat, luncheon, or workshop, reach out and connect with me on my speaker page at https://www.womenspeakers.com/florida/edgewater/speaker/doris-swift

Let’s have a chat about your next event!

Stay tuned for more amazing content and remember to check the show notes for all the links mentioned.

Thank you for being a part of our community. We are grateful for your continued support and encourage you to embrace the unique gifts that make you magnificently you.

I hope you’ll join me next time when I talk with another guest who is taking action where her passion, compassion, and conviction intersect …

Until then friend, have a blessed week, and I’ll talk to you soon.

With love and joy,

Doris

P.S. Don’t forget to follow us on social media for bite-sized wisdom and inspiration from Doris and our incredible guests! 📲

Doris [00:01:53]:
Welcome back to the show. Today. I’m excited to have a return guest, which this is Donna’s, I think, third time on the show. And I’m excited to have her back. Donna Amadon. And she is an author, a speaker, a Bible teacher, and just amazing author. And we’re going to talk about one of her books today. And we also have an amazing other guest with us, Charity Amadon, and she is Donna’s daughter.

Doris [00:02:21]:
So we are so excited and blessed to have both of them here together because there’s a special connection that they’re going to share about this book. And the book I have behind me here is amazing. It’s called Tracing His Promise, Understanding the Bigger Story of Jesus and what that means for us. And we’re going to be talking about this among other things. So I’m excited to get started. Welcome to the show. It’s great to have you both.

Donna Amidon [00:02:49]:
Thank you.

Charity Amidon [00:02:50]:
Hey, thank you.

Doris [00:02:51]:
All right, well, we’ve talked a little bit about the book before on, you know, the past episode, but there’s a special twist that we did not have before, and that was also inviting Charity into the conversation and how she was connected with this book. So how, however the Lord leads, if you want to, you know, Donna, if you want to kind of lean in first and then bring Charity into how this all connected, because this book is powerful. And I’ll tell you, I’m actually also going to lead this book as a Bible study at our church in the fall, and we’re going to talk more about that. But I can’t wait to help, ladies, to read through it and just dig in to what this means for us. Exactly, as the subtitle says. So. So yeah, Donna, if you could share a little bit more about that. And of course, this is how you’re taking action, where your passion, compassion, and conviction intersect.

Doris [00:03:48]:
Oh, and also, I wanted to also mention, too, that Charity is an amazing artist and illustrator. So that gives you a little hint about what we’re going to talk about. So go ahead, Donna. Sorry, I didn’t mean to interrupt you sure?

Donna Amidon [00:04:05]:
Well, it’s just funny how God orchestrates things and how he sees the whole picture of your life in mind. And we get so kind of trapped in one day at a time, but he just has a bigger plan all the time. And we really saw this happen with how this book kind of blossomed. And it really started about eight years ago. I was leading a Bible study at a church, and it was fall about this time of year. And I’m praying, God, what do I teach these precious ladies. And I had picked out a book that I kind of liked, but was a little hesitant and just didn’t have that feeling in my spirit, like, this was the book. And then one morning, Charity, my daughter and I, who’s here with me, she was about 10 years old at the time, and we were talking at the kitchen island.

Donna Amidon [00:04:52]:
Do you remember that?

Charity Amidon [00:04:53]:
Yeah.

Donna Amidon [00:04:53]:
And I said, charity, I said, do you think that you want to do the Jesse Tree study when you are a grownup? And do you remember your response?

Charity Amidon [00:05:05]:
It was a yes.

Donna Amidon [00:05:05]:
It was a yes. Her little eyes lit up, and she was so excited. And to give you a little backstory, Jesse Tree, if you’re not familiar with it, is this Advent tradition where you put ornaments on the tree every day of December. And rather than it be the Grinch or Santa Claus on the tree, they are ornaments that represent different stories in the Old Testament that tell about the coming Christ. And we had done this with the kids for many years. And when I saw Cherry’s enthusiasm about doing that when she was older, I thought, wow, this is a gift to our family. And what if I just started dreaming? What if this could be a gift that we give to so many families at our local church? And so that fall, I just started typing out a Bible study very, very quickly. And we went through the Old Testament stories of that point to Jesus.

Donna Amidon [00:05:57]:
And what ended up happening was amazing. I don’t know. You might experience this, Doris. Sometimes when you lead Bible studies, people are excited at first, but then the attendance kind of wanes as time goes. But with this particular study, something completely different happened. They started coming, and they came. And within about three years, we had a hundred ladies go through this particular study. And I just knew it was a gift to the body of Christ.

Donna Amidon [00:06:21]:
So I started pursuing publication. But the question is, how did Charity come into the picture?

Charity Amidon [00:06:27]:
Yeah, so the seed form of that was when she would. She would kind of just print out the Bible study for. To hand out to the ladies that were at the Bible study. And I would just draw, like. She would like, do you want to just draw, like, a tiny picture of, like, the Ten Commandments or, like, grapes for Joshua and Caleb? And I’d be like, oh, yeah. And I was like, how old? Like, 13.

Donna Amidon [00:06:50]:
Very young.

Charity Amidon [00:06:51]:
I just did, like, a little something.

Donna Amidon [00:06:52]:
I would say, tyri, can you draw a sheaf of wheat? Can you draw a little manger? And she would just draw this cute little picture.

Charity Amidon [00:06:57]:
Yeah. So that was really fun. I really enjoyed doing that and thinking of things to Do. So that’s how it started. And I never thought that it would, like, go more than that. But, yeah, I went to those. I was able to go to those Bible studies too, because at the time I was doing a co op, so I was at home during the, like, the mornings. So, yeah, it was really fun to be a part of it and just hear all those rich Old Testament stories at such a young age and just, like, have it ingrained into my mind.

Charity Amidon [00:07:25]:
And I think that was, like, a great foundation of where that would take me when she would actually write the book.

Doris [00:07:31]:
Yeah, it’s amazing to see how the Lord had been preparing all of this way before you even had any idea what was going to happen. And, you know, that’s how it is with him when we trust him and we just surrender our lives and we just say yes to him and we’re obedient to whatever his call is and what he leads us into doing. And just. It’s just so precious that this kind of began. You know how the word says not to despise the small beginnings and, you know, and so that you were small and this was like a small beginning of where it was going to lead with this bigger picture story, which is really what. What the book is about, which is exciting. And, you know, of course, I’m not surprised at all of how the study just continued to grow and grow and grow, because as we were kind of talking a little bit before we started recording that sometimes the Old Testament can be a little intimidating, or sometimes it’s hard for people to read it and really see what kind of connection it is or what really they’re supposed to get out of it. But it’s God’s word and how you tie it together with the prophecy of the coming Messiah and how that all really is knitted together, and it’s just.

Doris [00:08:47]:
It’s just fantastic. And so, Charity, when did you really start with your drawing and your artistry? Because I want to. I would just want to pull up. Bring up here this, what you did. I won a contest that Donna was running and you could get. Because Charity does pet portraits, she’ll probably share a little bit about that. But you could send a picture if you were the winner, and Charity would create a drawing from it. And this is such a likeness of the actual photo.

Doris [00:09:17]:
It’s beautiful. I love it. And it’s going to go in a very more beautiful frame. I’m not going to just keep it out like that forever, but I just. It’s just such a gift because not Everybody has the patience to do all those fine details. So when did that kind of start to kind of birth in you? When did God bring that through?

Charity Amidon [00:09:36]:
Yeah, I don’t even remember when it first started, but from what I’ve heard, and when I was like two or three, was that how old I was?

Donna Amidon [00:09:45]:
You were three.

Charity Amidon [00:09:46]:
Three years old. I had an appendectomy, so my appendix had ruptured. And I was in the hospital for a long time. And it was really scary because I also had pneumonia at the same time. And they didn’t know whether to put me under surgery because they didn’t know if I’d wake back up since because of all the complications. So I was just in the hospital for a very long time and just sitting there on the bed, I just started to draw. And I would draw these pictures of like, dogs and. And like humans and princesses and horses and all this, like, random stuff.

Charity Amidon [00:10:20]:
But my parents were like, dang, like, she’s pretty good for a three year old. And so I just kept on doing it and I. I just always loved drawing and. And I would, like. As I grew older, I found different ways to do art. Like I would make these puppets out of brown paper bags. It was so fun. Like, I still have them in my closet.

Charity Amidon [00:10:39]:
Like, I just loved art. And as I grew up, people would start to be like, oh, can you draw me this? Can you draw me that? And I was like, sure. I’ and then when I was 15, I think I started a business so that people could commission. I started with dogs, their dogs, and I could paint their dogs for them. So I’ve been doing that business ever since. And it’s called Lucky Dog Art Studio. So I only did drawings at first, actually didn’t like painting. But I started doing paintings and it was growing and it was really great and really fun.

Charity Amidon [00:11:11]:
I loved it. So I’m continuing to do that. And like I did for you, Doris. I also do. I’m branching out. I’m doing people. And for Mom’s book, I did illustrations. And that was a huge jump because those are digital.

Charity Amidon [00:11:24]:
Those aren’t like on a piece of paper. So that was a whole learning curve too. But I’ve always just loved it and I’ve found it, like, super amazing to not just do art of like God’s creation, which is beautiful, like dogs and people, but like to actually make them, like very biblically grounded drawings and really think about biblical principles and how to combine them using art.

Doris [00:11:46]:
So, wow, that’s really powerful too, you know, because everybody can relate to art and the beauty of it and how it’s reflecting God’s creations in such a beautiful way. And I’m so glad that you’re continuing to do that and using your gifts and sharing your gifts, you know, because I love that. With Fierce Calling, I always love to say that the podcast is to encourage women to take action where their passion, compassion, and conviction intersect and to use their gifts to impact the world for Christ. So this is really amazing. And I know that you are in school, so there’s a lot going on. And I remember, too, with the pet portraits, there was. There was quite a long waiting list. So you have a lot of interest.

Charity Amidon [00:12:28]:
They’re grateful. But, yeah, there’s a. There’s a waiting list, so that’s awesome.

Doris [00:12:32]:
That’s great. So, yeah. So how did that come about in coming into the book? Like, how did that begin, if you want to share?

Donna Amidon [00:12:43]:
Well, I had received the contract with my publisher and was just writing, writing, writing, writing. And, you know, things sometimes just drop in your spirit, and you’re thinking, wow, that’s. That’s a really good idea. And.

Charity Amidon [00:12:58]:
And we.

Donna Amidon [00:12:58]:
And it’s a God idea. And so I was writing, and I thought of those little. I thought back to those little illustrations that I had Charity drew years ago, the Little Sheaf of Wheat, the Little Manger. And I thought, what if she did a little illustration at the beginning of each chapter at the book? She’s done it before. And I thought, this is a great idea. So I presented to the publisher, and they were a little hesitant at first, didn’t really jump on it. And I thought, I cannot let this go. You know, sometimes you just let things go sometimes, you know, no, I’ve got to.

Donna Amidon [00:13:31]:
I’ve got to make this. I’ve got to at least take another step and see what happens. So I said, charity, why don’t you draw just a couple pictures, and we can send them to the publisher and see what they think. So you drew the dove. I think he drew Joseph’s coat of many colors in black and white.

Charity Amidon [00:13:46]:
Yeah, that was the challenge.

Doris [00:13:48]:
Yeah.

Charity Amidon [00:13:49]:
And I think it was the grapes and the shepherd.

Donna Amidon [00:13:52]:
Yes, and the shepherd. And they wrote back with an immediate, yes, we would love to have these illustrations in the book. So that’s how it came to be.

Doris [00:14:00]:
Amazing. And, you know, it was such wisdom from the Lord to say, hey, let’s send some in. Because, you know, everybody thinks their kids talented. I mean, let’s just face it, okay? And this is a publishing company, and they’re like, well, that’s really nice that your daughter is an artist, but, you know, but then actually seeing it and going, wow, this, this is going to be powerful for the book and add to it and the fact being that it’s a mother daughter team just makes it sweeter, you know, because there’s a lot of illustrators that are amazing out there. But when it’s your own child especially too, to have that talent. My, both my kids are talented with art. I mean, my, my son and my daughter in love actually even have an art business that they do. You know, they go to like the, the different festivals and things like that and they have the booth and, and all of that.

Doris [00:14:53]:
But I, I was never, I did like paint by number. I, you know, I was more writing or like a writer than artist, I think, because I didn’t have the patience. I wanted to like, finish it. You know, I want, I didn’t want to like work on little strokes and. But I do also love, you know, when you can go on YouTube and you can follow people that kind of take you along as you create a, you know, a painting or something. And I’ve done that with some of my grandkids and stuff, so that’s fun. But really the true artistry of being able to bring something to life on the paper or the canvas or to be able to do it from your thought, from your, you know, memory or how you envision vision that it should look. So.

Doris [00:15:43]:
Because I, you know, some of us are great at copying things, but to come out with it in that creative flow, you know, that is really a gift.

Charity Amidon [00:15:52]:
So, yeah, that was definitely a challenge for me to think of it and then draw it because I’m very much of like, I’ll just replicate the photo.

Doris [00:16:01]:
Yeah, yeah. Because you were taking the imagery that was described in, in the Bible and, and creating that from that, you know, versus copying like a beautiful flower or something like that. So, so I’m so glad the publisher said yes because it really, it’s really exciting. And so if you could share also a little bit more about how the listeners would use these in a special way that you have to do. Like, I’m, I’m just gonna thumb through here and you know, like at the beginning of the chapters, there’s the, you know, you see the artwork right there and that’s really powerful and it’s a good, hefty book. I mean, it is chock full. I wrote a, an endorsement for it because it just, it was powerful and so it’s chock full of Scripture and truth. So share a little bit about what.

Doris [00:16:59]:
How else that the listener. Because sometimes people. I don’t know if they really have grown up with. With Advent in their churches, you know, sometimes, and they might not really connect. How do I bring this into my family? What do I do? So how. How would you share that?

Charity Amidon [00:17:19]:
So when they did the Bible study at our home church, it was kind of like, make your own ornament for the Advent study. And this book can still go along with the advent study. It’s 25 chapters, so that means like, 25 stories, 25 ornaments. So they would just do, like, for Jacob’s ladder, they would just have like a little ladder made out of sticks or something like that. Something cute. So what we thought of to do was use the illustrations that I was able to do and put color to them and make them so that you can print them out yourself and make little ornaments so that you can use it for when you do it with your family. Yeah, during the Christmas season.

Donna Amidon [00:18:04]:
And this is really just another kind of step in the progress of the book because she had done the black and white illustrations. And then another thought, I’m like, wow, Charity, if you put color to these, because she’d done all 25, actually, there’s more. There are other illustrations peppered throughout the book. But I thought Charity, if you just add some color, easier said than done to these illustrations, we could make a printable download in the back of the book that people could. A PDF that people could print off and make their own ornaments out of it. And so Charity was so kind to comply and say that she would be willing to do that. And that took a lot of work, too. And so what ended up happening is that we have the black and white illustrations throughout the book, but in the appendix of the book, there’s a QR code that you can can down or you can go to that website, and it is a free PDF download of all 25 of these gorgeous illustrations.

Donna Amidon [00:19:03]:
And for those watching, they can see just a little picture of what they’ll get. There’ll be three sheets, and you’ll just see these gorgeous, gorgeous pictures that she did in full color. You see even there, Jesus with the three men. Oh, sorry. And.

Doris [00:19:19]:
Oh, wow.

Donna Amidon [00:19:20]:
Yes.

Doris [00:19:20]:
Yeah.

Donna Amidon [00:19:21]:
So it just adds so much value to the book. Not only do you get the book, but you get this very practical tool of how do I even do this with my family? How do I even start this tradition of remembering the coming Christ during Advent, those 25 days? Well, you have these 25 ornaments that correspond to the 25 lessons that you walk through as you read tracing his promise. So it’s just an incredible gift that Charity did and really adds value to us as we read it, because we get to not only read it once, but we get to recall the stories every Christmas as we see these ornaments on our tree.

Doris [00:19:58]:
Yeah, that’s beautiful, too, because it’s not also for your book. It’s not a book you just read once. You continually take it out and review it and go through it and share and. And how it’s a way to memorize and remember things better when you’re using the visual and reading it and hearing it, you know, and so that really kind of drives it home for us because we. I mean, we really need help in remembering things, and these are tangible things that can help us to remember. So. So I love that so much. And there’s just so many ideas that can be done with it.

Doris [00:20:37]:
You know, like homeschool groups can do this together, or Bible studies, like you were saying. I don’t know if you want to share, maybe, Donna, if you want to share a little bit about how would someone go about in leading this as a Bible study.

Donna Amidon [00:20:51]:
Yeah, it’s set up for that. And in fact, as far as the story of how the book unfolded, I originally wrote the book as a Bible study, and when I presented it to the publisher, they said, we don’t want a Bible study. We want a trade book. So my heart, and you will hear this as you read the book, is truly for Bible study and that type of setting. But I have written it in a way that it’s very conducive for small groups at a church or Sunday school. Basically, there are 25 days of. Or 25 stories that you go through, and then you can just break up those 25 stories however you want. You can meet weekly and go over two stories or three stories just based off how many weeks that you have in your particular group go through the stories.

Donna Amidon [00:21:33]:
And at the end of each chapter or end of each lesson are discussion questions that you can do. And so I’ve had the joy, the extreme joy of visiting many Bible studies that have used this just locally. And just what faith it spurs in the listener’s ear as they read is just so encouraging. You know, as you mentioned, we sometimes we just push off the Old Testament as antiquated or not relevant to my life. But Romans 15:5 says that these stories were written for our instruction so that we can have hope. And how many of us need hope? And so I have written this book. Yes, we can understand, but yes, we can also be more importantly, transformed. And we can have our faith spurred just to greater levels because we see the faithfulness of God.

Donna Amidon [00:22:24]:
And I’ve had women just say, wow, these stories spoke exactly to where I was that particular week. I just see the Lord’s hand. It’s not by me. It’s God’s grace completely. It’s his spirit working and moving in the hearts of men and women. But yes, this book is really been a very powerful tool in many small groups that I’m getting the joy of seeing it firsthand. So I don’t know if I just answered your question or just got really excited about that.

Doris [00:22:52]:
You did, you did. Yeah.

Donna Amidon [00:22:55]:
But yeah, just it’s, it’s very, it’s very conducive for small group study. I think that’s probably the best way to do it. Of course you can do it on your own, but it is very much a community, a community experience. Even in the subtitle and a subtitle it says what that means for us. It’s not just what that means for you. What’s what, what does that mean for us as God’s daughters and as his sons.

Doris [00:23:19]:
Yeah. Wow. I love how you explained all that. It’s beautifully said. And I, and I do love that you say us because sometimes there’s books that speak directly to the reader only, which, you know, if you read it on your own, it certainly does. But to think of it as, this is the story of us, you know, God and us. And so I think that that’s pretty powerful and how it opens our eyes to the Old Testament because I love how you said, when you were kind of explaining that how women are really like getting into the Old Testament and then seeing how it all connects and, and you’re able to see the fruit of all of this happening because there are a lot of teachings going on and I don’t think it’s really anything new, but it is false teachings trying to almost wipe out, you know, the Old Testament or kind of not put a lot of emphasis on the Old Testament, because there’s a lot in the Old Testament that might seem kind of like, whoa, that was a lot that God did. But it was all purposeful and powerful to learn those things.

Doris [00:24:31]:
And yes, Jesus came to fulfill. He fulfilled all the prophecies that were given about him. And so how would you speak and encourage to look at this as one big story?

Donna Amidon [00:24:46]:
I often think of the Bible as a two act play or a two Part movie. The Old Testament is Act one. The New Testament is Act Two. And if you’ve ever gone into a movie halfway through, or if you’ve ever had a friend join you for the movie halfway through, they start asking you all these questions like, what is that person? What is that mean? What does that mean? Because they’ve missed the first half of the movie. But if you go back sometimes, if you’ve only watched the second half of the movie and go back and watch a movie from the beginning, your mind lights up like a Christmas tree because you’re like, oh, I knew who that person was. And, oh, that makes sense why that happened. And you just kind of see how everything in the first part of a movie builds and climaxes to that point. That in the movie that you’re just where the music swells and we’re all just getting excited.

Donna Amidon [00:25:35]:
And if we think of the Bible in that way, we can think of the climactic point of the Bible being when Jesus was born and his life and his death and burial and resurrection. That is the. That is the climax of the. The story. And so that first act, or the Old Testament is really the. The part that gives us the anticipation and hints hundreds of times to millions of people. And so when we see the Old Testament, we see a prophecy of Jesus spoken hundreds of times over thousands of years to millions of people. And we see this over and over again.

Donna Amidon [00:26:13]:
And. And it builds with it, culminates with Jesus. And so if we’re throwing out the Old Testament, if we’re saying it’s not important, then we’re dismissing the part of the story that anticipates and gives reason and shows the brilliance of our salvation. So, yeah, it’s overwhelming. It’s. I get it. It’s intimidating. There are parts that I certainly don’t understand.

Donna Amidon [00:26:34]:
But tracing his promise gives us just that big picture view. And it helps us see how all the pieces. We went to New York City not long ago, we saw many icons, and then we went up to the Empire State Building the last day. And when we did that, it kind of made Manhattan island make sense. Like, there’s the Statue of Liberty, there’s the 911 Museum, because we were looking at it from a different vantage point. And I feel like that’s what happens. Tracing his promise, we kind of go up to another level and we see all these stories and we see how they all come together and point, point to the person of Jesus.

Doris [00:27:10]:
Yeah, I love that because, you know, as we said earlier, he didn’t come to Abolish the law. He came to fulfill it and he fulfilled all those prophecies about him. And that some of the things, because you bring out in the book some of the things that we may not have noticed. I think, I think in my endorsement I said something like Golden Nuggets in Plain Sight or something like the Hidden Treasures and In Plain sight or something because it’s right there. But so that, that’s amazing and, and kind of helping us, us to go through it because sometimes we just need a little help with, okay, how does this all connect and where does this fit? And throughout the book you could just feel the excitement of the author and also the illustrator. You know, how this was just really powerful and, and how you love to share. But Charity, I was going to ask too for your generation because this is an important book for even like students, you know, to, to go through. And it’s written in a way that is, you know, very easy to understand and make the connection.

Doris [00:28:14]:
So how have you found that as far as speaking from someone from, you know, a younger generation, how this book can impact some of your friends and even those that are even younger than you?

Charity Amidon [00:28:28]:
Yeah, my mom wrote the book so it’s very conversational and it’s easy to read lots of stories and like that, very good explanations of really complicated things. And we’re actually just this morning we did this Bible study with a group of girls at our church. They’re like 8th, 9th, 10th grade. And they just, they just love it. They’re just so into it. They. I love seeing their faces when things click. Like you can just hear.

Charity Amidon [00:28:53]:
They’re like, oh. Like whoa. Like I didn’t even realize that. And I think those are the moments where it’s just like, oh, this is so incredible and this is so rich. And one thing that my mom always says that I love when she tells the girls is that take these principles and the things that you’re learning in this awe inspiring experience that you feel when you learn about the scriptures and how everything connects into your worship. And so since we all go to the same church, we can worship together and we’re all worshiping together. And it’s just so encouraging when my mom says, like, take what you’ve learned from this study and think about that while you’re worshiping and think about, wow, like by your like blood that we are saved and we are healed. We can think of the Passover and just all these different things.

Charity Amidon [00:29:39]:
Just, it enhances your worship in a way rather than just not even thinking about the Words, but instead like thinking about them more than even the. The song like portrays like. And just like all the stories behind it just like enhances worship even more. And I think it’s been great to see the younger generation learn about all these things because I think a lot of times they can just not think it’s important or just walk right past the incredible richness of the Bible because there’s, it’s. There’s just a lots of e easier things to do. But I’m just so glad that we’re able to do with those girls because it’s been such a great thing.

Doris [00:30:17]:
Yeah, that’s really precious too that you, you’re doing that with younger girls. And I, and I hope some of the listeners might lead, you know, they might volunteer in youth, they might lead groups and that’s really for, for boys or girls. You know, it doesn’t have to be just girls, but. But it’s just powerful to be able to. Because God entrusted us with His Word and so that young, the younger generations can see that they’re also entrusted with His Word and His truth and how they can also share it and so these exciting ways that they can better understand. And like you said, charity enhancement, the worship, it enhances worship when you have these things that are uncovered and it’s not like something new because there’s nothing new under the sun. It’s just, it’s been in His Word but just uncovering and bringing it to the forefront and kind of shining a light on certain things that may not have stood out before and how it connects in a. And I just love that about that.

Doris [00:31:22]:
And plus. And Donna. And you’re a musician, right? Are you. Are. Do you. Is your whole family musical or.

Charity Amidon [00:31:28]:
I love singing. Yeah.

Donna Amidon [00:31:30]:
Yeah, we have a lot of music going on in the house for sure.

Doris [00:31:32]:
Yeah. That’s precious too. I love that. So what are the plans coming up for the book or what Is there anything in the future that you’re. You’re thinking about doing differently or what. What are some plans that you have coming up?

Donna Amidon [00:31:49]:
That’s a great question. Something that just happened that I’d love to mention is the book is also out on audiobook. So that’s been a really neat. Just another level of people that can be able to hear about the promise of Christ. I would love to maybe one day down the road make a devotional for families that also cover the 25 stories of the book. So you just have it in bite sized form but so that you can use it. Yeah, you can use it with your families. I mean, you can use it now, but just maybe using Charity’s illustrations do that down the road.

Donna Amidon [00:32:23]:
But apart from that, right now, I’m just really enjoying going to women’s events, sharing and talking about the book and seeing more and more ladies and men be impacted by what they hear.

Doris [00:32:37]:
Yeah. And you’re such a lovely and eloquent speaker and how you share the Bible and how you’re excited about it, you know, and so you can’t help but be excited about it, too, you know, if you’re listening to when you’re speaking. So. And then it comes out in the book as well. And you also do videos. You. You’re part of another organization that is for Bible literacy. Right.

Doris [00:33:01]:
What. Can you share a little bit about that, Donna? Sure.

Donna Amidon [00:33:04]:
Yes. I am a content creator for Back to the Bible. It. It has been. Back to the Bible has been around, I’m thinking at least 80 years on the radio. In 2020, it transformed. Transformed to a online ministry. But if you go to Back the Bible, they have a YouTube channel.

Donna Amidon [00:33:22]:
And you can find me teaching. You can find just a whole host of other great teachers. And really, Back to the Bible is going back to the Bible to find truth so that we can live out our faith and walk out our faith and put it in motion. So it’s been a joy to be a part of that ministry on and off for about 10 years now.

Doris [00:33:40]:
I love that. And Charity, you’re in school, right? So what has God laid on your heart as far as. Do you have kind of like an idea of a direction, how you might want to go in your walk with him?

Charity Amidon [00:33:54]:
Yeah. One thing that the doing the illustrations for this book has sparked is just like, how you can present the Bible with using art and how powerful that is and how it can just stick in your brain. Like a picture is a thousand words. And I just. I get really excited about showing people the art and being able to explain really complex things with it and kind of combining them. And if that’s okay, could I do that really quick with one of them?

Doris [00:34:24]:
Oh, yeah, yeah.

Charity Amidon [00:34:25]:
Could I bring one?

Donna Amidon [00:34:25]:
Sure.

Doris [00:34:26]:
One.

Charity Amidon [00:34:27]:
Okay. There’s a couple, but one of my favorites. And, like, I would get it as a tattoo. Like, some people are like, it’s another conversation.

Donna Amidon [00:34:36]:
Was it this?

Charity Amidon [00:34:37]:
No, but I can do that one. If you look in the book for the people who are just listening and not watching, there’s a. There’s a picture for the Passover. And the really cool thing about the Passover, and I won’t spoil it, but I kind of will is. Is that when they put the blood on the door frame to spare them from the tenth plague, the Israelites, it was a picture of Jesus and how his blood is how we are saved and not by good works or anything like that. And so did you find it? I really enjoy doing that one where I kind of combined like, the doorpost and the cross together and just how the bloods on the door frames also just like it’s the same like, innocent blood of a lamb that saves us. Like the lamb of God and also the lamb here. Yeah.

Charity Amidon [00:35:28]:
So doing things like that is. Is very exciting for me too. And I’ve. I’m trying to think of more cool ways that you can put the truth of Scripture into art. And it’s truly not to. To boost me up at all. It’s truly just to have people understand who God is and get excited about it and be able to remember it because. Because the Lord, I mean, he gave me this talent that’s not of my own abilities, and I just want to honor him fully in that.

Charity Amidon [00:36:01]:
And so I think explaining the truths of the Bible through art is something that I love to do and hope to continue to be able to do.

Donna Amidon [00:36:10]:
Yeah. And what makes me so excited is people will read a chapter of the book and they’ll forget most of it by the next day. But when they all look at that picture, pictures can just stay with you. And to have each chapter with a. A picture that really captures the heart of that chapter is such an incredible gift. So thank you for charity for doing that. And I just love how pictures just burn in our mind and we can remember it over and over.

Doris [00:36:37]:
Yeah. Yeah, that is so true. And, and too, how different things speak to different people. You know, like you were talking about the audiobook version. Maybe that’s something that people, you know, when they’re hearing it, it’s easier for them to grasp or understand or when they’re seeing it visually in these. In these pictures and then reading it themselves and, or having someone else read it to them. You know, so there’s. There’s so many different ways that people learn and experience what, you know, God wants us to learn and know and, and grow and just a beautiful tool for discipleship, too, and especially for the writing and also for the drawing and the art, because it’s an open door to conversation.

Doris [00:37:23]:
You know, you can just. You can have some of these illustrations on. You probably thought of this already, but, you know, have them on T shirts or something to where people can say, wow, that’s really cool. What, what is that about? You know, tell me about that. And it just is like an open door of divine appointments where you can share. So that’s really powerful. And I love that you’re using your gifts for that. And of course, you, you’ve been raised in a wonderful godly family and not everybody has been.

Doris [00:37:49]:
So I think too, that’s another thing to consider, the fact being that some have come to faith, but maybe had a rough childhood or maybe didn’t, you know, had a great childhood, but their family was not Christian or, you know, knew Jesus and now there’s like a whole new world opening up to people who are hearing about him, maybe hearing the word for the first time or when you have a language barrier because, you know, you don’t have to speak the same language as someone, but someone can look at a picture, you know, a piece of art, and they can understand what the message is from it. So I think that’s another powerful thing because it can be international, you know, with, with the art part of it too. So I think that’s really great. And ways to just share the gospel with, with others. And of course him as coming king too, you know, that he’s. He’s going to return and that the hope that. And that’s the message too. Throughout the book, it’s like this continual hope and God’s faithfulness and truth that everything that was said came to pass and there’s even more to come that we can be excited about.

Doris [00:38:58]:
So I love that so much. And if there is something, I’ll give you each an opportunity, maybe one last thing you’d want to leave the listener with before we can maybe have you share how they can connect with and, and reach out to you all.

Donna Amidon [00:39:12]:
You know, we live our lives so much, and it’s not until we’ve lived something and we look back, we can see how God’s hand was in it the whole time. I remember when I first did this for the ladies of the church eight years ago. I thought, this needs to be a book. And I begged and I pleaded and I stormed the gates of heaven and, and asked God, make this a book. Make this a book. And it didn’t happen. And it didn’t happen. And so I had to pray and wait, wait and pray and wait and pray and wait.

Donna Amidon [00:39:41]:
And it wasn’t until like five years or six years later after the book was ready, that I even got an agent and got a publisher. And then the book happened. But yet I look back Now. And I think if God would have said yes when I wanted him to say yes, I would have written the book, but there would be no illustrations because Charity was so young and had not developed as an artist. But yet I’m praying God do this so hard. But yet God would say, wait, my daughter. I’m working on something even better that’s going to blow you away. And then seven years later, Charity’s able.

Donna Amidon [00:40:24]:
I write, I get the contract, and Charity is able to be the illustrator. And what a lesson for me in the book, and what a lesson for me in life. And what a lesson for all of us listening is that we can truly trust God’s timing. And when he says no or when he says wait, it’s often because he has something else in mind. Because we must remember he has a perspective we don’t have. He has wisdom beyond anything we can even begin to have. And so it’s just beautiful how God’s timing is truly perfect and that he wants us to wait and trust in his faithfulness and his goodness and his loving kindness even when things don’t make sense. So I love how that was a huge lesson for me as I wrote the book.

Charity Amidon [00:41:09]:
And even in that waiting, like. Like one of the stories in the book is about Abraham and how he had to wait 25 or so years for a promise of a son that God had promised. And he was just like, where is it? And he tried to fulfill it in his own strength, but it was so that when it happened, and it would have been the. Like, it would have been so impossible for Abraham to do it in himself. That, like, to have a kid at 100 that, like, they knew that it was God that did it. And I think there’s just so many stories in the book that show that, like, through the hard times, you can trust the Lord. And Jesus has always been there. He’s not just a backup plan.

Charity Amidon [00:41:52]:
Like Genesis 3:15, like, that’s the first mention of the gospel. The first time that. That God was like, I’m going to save you guys, was like, Genesis, the first book. So it’s just really encouraging to know that God, the same God that is in Genesis, the same God that part of the Red Sea. And it was with Abraham and Joseph and all these characters that we read about, like, those are very real people. And that’s the same God that we pray to today. And just understanding that just really, really helps you just appreciate what Jesus did and all that the Lord has gone through and his people have gone through, and it’s Encouragement to us to just look at the story as a whole, I think.

Doris [00:42:37]:
Yeah. Wow. I. This is a great note to kind of end the show on, because this really relates to everyone, you know, and it will encourage someone listening today day who’s been waiting. Maybe there’s a prayer that they’re waiting, they’re waiting on, and they’re just not seeing anything or someone that. That is serving, serving, serving, but just not seeing any fruit and wondering, is it time to quit? You know, should I. Should I quit? And maybe there are some times where God is changing direction and maybe leading you into something new. But oftentimes it’s in our own strength that we think we should do things or we try to make things happen on our own and that it.

Doris [00:43:19]:
It’s not the right timing. It’s not God’ timing in. And I think it’s really great that you share this story about how it would not have worked out as well had it gone your way. Donna when we thought, you know, we wanted this to happen now, you know, and then when it happens later, seeing that it’s so much better than we could ask or think, you know, it’s like just that scripture in Ephesians, but just knowing that God has it under control, like he knows. He knows what’s going to happen, so we just can trust him in that and, and, and just show up, basically. So I think that’s going to encourage a lot of people listening today who, who just feel like maybe they don’t want to show up anymore, but just keep showing up and, you know, just, just keep trusting God and in whatever it is, you know, that’s happening. And we have challenge, we have seasons in our life, we have things that happen. Life happens as, as the saying goes, but that we can always trust our God is faithful.

Doris [00:44:18]:
And this, this book is. Is encouraging because it’s kind of showing that over and over and over. And you know, as. As you brought out Charity that time time again, we see it throughout the pages and how all of it connects together. So, wow. This, this has been really amazing and I loved that you were both able to be on together, which is really cool. And I would also love if you would share with the listener how they can connect with you and where they can find the book and all things that Charity is doing and all of that.

Charity Amidon [00:44:51]:
So I am on Facebook, Instagram, and then I have a website. A website is www.luckydogart.com. and then Facebook is the same Lucky dog Art on Instagram, it’s amadon art. So that’s a M I D O n art. And you’ll find me, hopefully. And if you message me, I will write you back. I’m not the not that, like, popular, so I’ll write you back. And I would love to do really any thing for you that you would like to get commissioned as a drawing or a painting or just an idea.

Charity Amidon [00:45:23]:
I’d love to hear from you on that.

Donna Amidon [00:45:26]:
Yeah, well, you can find [email protected] and as charity said, I am not Beth Moore or Priscilla Schwarr. I will write you back. I will write you back personally. So I’d love to hear from you. And you can get Tracey as promised. Really? Anywhere books are sold. Barnes and noble, Amazon, christianbook distributor.com. it’s also available on Audible and audiobook.

Donna Amidon [00:45:51]:
So I think it’s at a really low price right now. So it’s a great gift. It’s a great Bible study tool. So I encourage your listeners to check it out, check out the reviews, see if it’s something that they would enjoy.

Doris [00:46:02]:
Yeah. Thank you so much for sharing all of that. And it’s just been such a pleasure having you both on the show. And I think it really brings home just how impactful this, this book is. And knowing a little bit about the backstory is kind of cool because then as people are going through, they can go, oh, yeah, I remember when they were talking about this, you know, or whatever on the show. So I’ll put those links in the show notes so people can find you. And if. If anybody is interested in doing it as a Bible study at their church, in groups, youth groups, homeschool groups, women’s groups, groups, men’s groups, you know, all the things.

Doris [00:46:39]:
It’s just fantastic. And what a great time of the year to really get this book. It’s. It’s kind of an evergreen because it’s like something that you can do every year, you know, it just is. And then you can do the ornaments and all of that. So it’s just. It’s just great because it incorporates a lot. It could be done as a workshop, which would be really super fun too, you know, and incorporating the art into it and all of that.

Doris [00:47:01]:
So. So thanks again, ladies, for joining me. It’s been great having you on. I appreciate that.

Charity Amidon [00:47:06]:
Thank you.

Donna Amidon [00:47:07]:
Thank you, Doris, and God bless you and your ministry. I love your heart. I love your gracious spirit. I will just. You bought some of my son’s coffee years ago. You. You wanted to support charity as well and have been so kind to write the endorsement. So God bless you and your listeners and the friends listening.

Donna Amidon [00:47:24]:
You have a beautiful heart and a beautiful ministry and so God’s richest blessings on all that you do.

Doris [00:47:30]:
Oh, thank you so much. That is, that is so sweet and I, I appreciate that. Such a blessing and you know how God puts us all together and I’d love to have you both back on the show sometime. We’ll be here together or separate, you know, however God leads. So that will be fun. And friends, thank you again for listening in and I hope you were blessed, I know you were by the conversation and what Donna and Charity had shared today. And I hope you join me next time time when I talk with another woman or women who are taking action where their passion, compassion and conviction intersect. Until then, friends, have a blessed week and I’ll talk to you soon.

Welcome back to Fierce Calling! In today’s episode, host Doris Swift sits down with Kate Battistelli—author, speaker, and one of the hosts of the popular Mom to Mom Podcast. Kate shares her powerful story of stepping from a career in theater and the New York Broadway scene into an unexpected life of faith, family, and purpose after coming to know Christ at the age of 29.

Together, Doris and Kate explore what it means to step into unknown seasons—such as the empty nest—and discover new meaning and purpose beyond motherhood. Kate reflects on her journey, from being a Broadway understudy to embracing roles as a mother to the award-winning Christian music artist, Francesca Battistelli, grandmother to 7, wife, and writer, all while encouraging women to boldly obey God’s call, even if it means venturing outside their comfort zones.

We’re talking about her career in theater opposite a well-known actor, how she met her hubby, their sweet salvation story, and how God has amazing plans and a powerful purpose for each of our lives.

You’ll also hear practical tips for navigating life transitions, building strong marriages, mentoring the next generation, and saying “yes” to unexpected challenges—whether it’s writing a book, starting a podcast, or simply volunteering.

Stick around until the end for a special offer from Kate, and get ready to be inspired to step out where your passion, compassion, and conviction intersect!

00:00 “Writer, Podcaster, Former Actress”

04:20 Exciting Stories and New Offers

10:25 From Understudy to Leading Role

12:45 “Unexpected Encounter at Holiness Church”

14:35 “Life-Changing Divine Calling”

20:30 Faithful Obedience and Calling

22:12 Redefining Life After Parenting

25:44 “Preparing for Future Goals”

28:20 Prioritize Relationship Over Parenting

31:31 Finding Purpose Beyond Motherhood

34:32 Pray for Prodigal Children’s Return

38:02 Impact Through Obedience

42:06 “Join, Share, and Connect”

You can connect with Kate at katebattistelli.com where you’ll find her books, social media links, podcast, blog, and even some amazing recipes!

Plus, If you’d like to read the introduction and the first chapter of The Afterparty of the Empty Nest for free, just text: afterparty (all one word with no spaces), to 44144. And you’ll get a couple of other fun goodies as well!

Kate Battistelli is the author of The After Party of the Empty Nest: Mom is Not Your Only Name, the bestseller, The God Dare: Will You Choose to Believe the Impossible, and Growing Great Kids: Partner with God to Cultivate His Purpose in Your Child’s Life. She is a contributing writer to the (in)courage Bible for Women and The Spirit-Led Woman’s Bible, and her writing has appeared in Guideposts, The Joyful Life magazine, The Better Mom, Mici magazine, and more. She is one-third of the popular
Mom to Mom Podcast. In addition, she is an honoree with She Leads Tennessee.

As a young actress in New York City, Kate had a life-changing experience, going from understudy to starring as Anna in the
Broadway National Tour of The King and I opposite Yul Brynner for more than 1,000 performances. Kate and her husband laid down their careers in the Broadway theatre in answer to their first “God Dare,” moving out of New York City and into a life of homeschooling and home business. She lives in Franklin, TN, near her daughter, contemporary Christian recording artist Francesca Battistelli, and seven precious grandchildren. Kate serves women by encouraging them to step out of their safe space and into His irresistible future.

She’s a Jersey girl living in Franklin, TN, with her husband Mike. They’ve been married for 40 plus years and are the parents of GRAMMY Award-winning Christian recording artist Francesca Battistelli Goodwin. She and her husband, Matt, have given us 7 beautiful grandchildren, and they are the delight of our lives!

Check out Surrender the Joy Stealers: Rediscover the Jesus Joy in You 6-week Bible study rooted in John 15. You can find more info at https://dorisswift.com/book/

Find my free resources including Fear Fighting Bible Verses, Simple Tips for Sharing Your Faith, Surrender the Joy Stealers, Step Out of Your Doubt and Into Your Calling ebook, and more on my dorisswift.com homepage!

Did you know that following, rating, and leaving a review over at Podchaser or Apple Podcasts helps others discover the show too? I would so appreciate it, friend!

Check out my speaking page, grab my flyer, and let’s talk about me speaking at your next women’s event…

I hope this episode encouraged, inspired, and challenged you to cultivate community, live and walk in the value, purpose, and worth God gave you, and take action where your passion, compassion, and conviction intersect.

If you’re looking for a speaker for your next women’s conference, retreat, luncheon, or workshop, reach out and connect with me on my speaker page at https://www.womenspeakers.com/florida/edgewater/speaker/doris-swift

Let’s have a chat about your next event!

Stay tuned for more amazing content and remember to check the show notes for all the links mentioned.

Thank you for being a part of our community. We are grateful for your continued support and encourage you to embrace the unique gifts that make you magnificently you.

I hope you’ll join me next time when I talk with another guest who is taking action where her passion, compassion, and conviction intersect …

Until then friend, have a blessed week, and I’ll talk to you soon.

With love and joy,

Doris

P.S. Don’t forget to follow us on social media for bite-sized wisdom and inspiration from Doris and our incredible guests! 📲

Doris [00:00:52]:
What is threatening to steal your joy? What is it that feels so heavy right now that you could barely stand? God has a plan and his plan is to surrender it. Surrender it to him. It might be a prodigal, it might be a relationship, a marriage, something with your job. So many things. We have so many amazing blessings, but there are so many things in our life that threaten to steal our joy. I’m Doris Swift, author of the award winning six week Bible study, Surrender the Joy. Rediscover the Jesus joy in you. And it helps women rediscover the overflowing, ever present Jesus joy within that fills, empowers and ripens the fruit that God produces in our lives.

Doris [00:02:32]:
Using personal and biblical stories, I share how you can identify your joy stealers. Surrender them to God. Reawaken the joy within and share the joy with others. You can do it on your own or with a group. Check it out, friends. Surrender the joy stealers. Rediscover the Jesus joy in you. It’s available on all the online retailers. It’s time to take your joy back.

Doris [00:02:57]:
Welcome back to the show today. I am so excited to introduce to you my friend, Kate Battistelli. I’ve been looking forward to this interview with her. She is the author of The After Party of the Empty Nest. Mom is Not Your Only Name. Amen. And she’s also the author of the bestseller The God Dare, Will you choose to believe the impossible? And Growing Great Kids Partner with God to Cultivate His Purpose in Your Child’s Life.

Doris [00:03:26]:
And she is a contributing writer to a lot of different publications and she’s also one third of the popular mom to mom podcast. So you listen to podcasts, so be sure to check that out. And she’s also a former actress, so we’re going to hear a little bit about that. It’s kind of exciting. She currently lives in Franklin, Tennessee and she is near her daughter, who you probably know, she’s the contemporary Christian recording artist Francesca Battistelli and she has seven precious grandchildren. So this is very exciting and a good reason to move to Tennessee. And I love this about Kate, that she serves women by encouraging them to step out of their safe space and into his irresistible future. I’ve never heard it put that way.

Doris [00:04:13]:
So I, I’m really intrigued and I love that so much. Kate, welcome to the show.

Kate [00:04:17]:
Thank you, Doris. I am thrilled to be here.

Doris [00:04:20]:
I am so excited about this because we are going to talk about so many amazing things that are really going to bless the audience, the listener today. So Listener, stay tuned to the end because Kate has something exciting that she wants to offer you. So. So we don’t want to miss out on that. And we are talking about the new book. But there’s so many things, really, that are kind of intertwined in your story, Kate, and from your background and everything, that’s so fascinating. And I just can’t wait for you to share that. So I would love if you would share a little about your story, however the Lord leads you and how you are taking action, where your passion, compassion and conviction intersection.

Kate [00:05:03]:
Yeah, I mean, my story is so quirky. I always tell people, you know, God just. God has a sense of humor because he took me from not knowing him to finding him at 29. So I didn’t grow up in a Christian home. I grew up going to church. But there was never any, you know, any desire to know Jesus, and it was never really talked about. So I left home. I went to four colleges in two years.

Kate [00:05:28]:
I didn’t graduate from any of them. So I like to remind people I’m a college dropout. But that doesn’t matter. You can still do lots of stuff. But I did get on the dean’s list, so there’s that. And my husband has a doctorate, so combined, kind of, you know, works, works, works in my favor. But, yeah, just had an interesting life. Now I’m married.

Kate [00:05:47]:
We’ve been married 42 years this summer. We have seven grandkids. Just one child. God. I wanted a big family. God gave us one, but she’s got seven. And it’s such a blessing, you know, you don’t think about what that’ll be like till you have them. My husband always says, you don’t think your heart can grow bigger, but it really can.

Kate [00:06:07]:
And with each one, it just grows a little bit more. So it’s. It’s a. If you’re blessed to have grandchildren, it’s a wonderful thing. Yeah, we feel just honored, you know, that’s beautiful.

Doris [00:06:19]:
And, you know, having, because you talk about in the book, too, how Francesca was the only child and, you know, all that, but she’s given you seven is a pretty amazing number of grandkids to have. And it’s like a good number. It’s like a God number. It is. Maybe she’ll have more.

Kate [00:06:36]:
It really is.

Doris [00:06:38]:
She’ll have 12. You know, that’s a God number, too.

Kate [00:06:40]:
That’s true. So is eight. They’re all God numbers. Just some are. You don’t want 13, but.

Doris [00:06:46]:
But that. That’s so fun and fantastic. And, you know, I Know that you have a lot of background in theater and that kind of thing. So you have a lot of talent in your family and how this all came about, because I think your husband was involved in Broadway as well. So if you could tell us a little bit about that and share how that went and how God segued you out of that particular season in your life.

Kate [00:07:11]:
Sure, it’s a crazy story, and to me, it’s a really prophetic picture of what God was doing even before I knew him. And I’ll come back to that. But, yeah, I was a young actress in New York just wanting to be famous. I wanted fame. And fortunately, I’d lived in New Jersey like you had, and New York was not that far. So eventually I made my way there in my 20s and I was doing different things. Children’s theater, regional theater, whatever I could do, I would say yes to. Well, one day I got a call from my agent and he says, kate, there’s a big production of the King and I starring Yul Brynner that’s going to be a national tour.

Kate [00:07:49]:
And if some of your audience, they might be too young, they’re like, who? Well, he was a huge star, if you’ve ever seen the Ten Commandments. He played Farrow, and he was back in 1981. He was still a huge star, so he was starring in it. And my agent wanted me to audition for the understudy to the leading lady. And I thought, okay, well, I ended up getting the part. I thought, well, this is great. I’m going to travel, I’m going to actually earn some money. I’ll never go on, because understudies basically are like an insurance policy for the producer.

Kate [00:08:22]:
So especially at that level. And I was. I had experience, but I didn’t have, you know, that kind of experience. I was young to be picked for an understudy, but I was thrilled. But I learned my part. You have to know your part backward and forward. So I knew if ever called on, I’ll be able to do this, thinking I’m never going to get a chance. Well, about two months into the run of the show, I walk into the theater one night and as soon as my foot crosses the threshold, the stage manager runs to me, he grabs me and he says, she’s sick.

Kate [00:08:55]:
You’re on. And I mean, your life flashes before your eyes. Because I don’t know if people realize the King and I has probably the biggest role for a female in all of musical theater. It’s a three hour show and I sang seven songs I’m on stage almost the whole time. I mean, it’s just a huge show. So the thought of. And I got in at 7:15 for an 8 o’ clock show because I didn’t have much to do in the chorus, you know, it didn’t take much to get ready. But for that, you know, the hoop skirts, the hats I’d never handled the props I’d never worn the costumes, I’d never done a scene with Yul Brynner.

Kate [00:09:30]:
So the thought of, the thought of all of it was terrifying. But as I’m standing in the wings about to go on, the thought occurred to me. And I told this to my daughter many times, I said, sometimes you just have to do it afraid. There are those times in life where you can’t back up. It’s like having a baby, you know, you can’t. When it starts, you can’t get out of it. And this is, this was that same thing. This is what I was getting paid for.

Kate [00:09:53]:
Well, I did the show. I didn’t die because I thought I might, but I didn’t. Ended up going on for the leading lady for two weeks because she had pneumonia. But she got well, came back to the show. I went back to the chorus because that’s how it works. And I thought that was great, you know, great credit for my resume. But that’s not the end of the story. The crazy part is about a month later I get a call from one of the producers and he says, Kate, Mr.

Kate [00:10:18]:
Brenner has sent the leading lady back to New York. He’s paid off her two year contract and he wants you in the role.

Doris [00:10:24]:
Wow.

Kate [00:10:25]:
I mean, that never happens. They’re not going to put an understudy in a leading role like that. They’re always going to bring in somebody from New York. But I really look at it as a God thing, the way he will reach down and pull you out of obscurity to dance with him. Because if you know the king and I, toward the end, there’s that big shall we dance scene, which I get chills just talking about. It was an amazing, just an amazing thing to be a part of. I ended up doing the show almost three years, about a thousand performances, so all over the place. But the best part is this cute guy joined the tour named Mike Battistelli.

Kate [00:11:01]:
He was the associate conductor and we’ve always played gigantic theater. So I could see, you could see the orchestra and I could see, who’s that cute guy. He joined as the associate conductor so he had to learn the score so he’s flipping the pages and I’m seeing him and thinking, he’s really cute. I gotta get the scoop on him. So a couple of my friends, I said, I’m find out, you know, what’s the deal with him? Find out if he’s married, whatever. Well, he wasn’t. We literally fell in love across the footlight because I could see him, he could see me. He said, when I first saw you, I thought you were a much older British actress.

Kate [00:11:33]:
But then I found out you were a girl from New Jersey with a good English accent. So he will still tell that story. But we met, we fell in love. When I left the show in 1983, we ended up getting married in July. And, well, if you want, I’ll tell you our salvation story, because it’s just as crazy as this whole thing.

Doris [00:11:51]:
Let’s hear it. Okay.

Kate [00:11:53]:
Well, we had a little side business because we were both then unemployed. And we started this business and there was an older woman that was mentoring us. She was just helping us figure it out. Well, if we found out she was a born again Jewish woman, a messianic Jew, and she was a typical New Yorker, she was relentless. She kept inviting us to church, and she would not stop inviting us. And we kept saying, no, we’re good, you know, we don’t need to go to church was our thought. But she kept inviting us. So Mike and I just looked at each other one day and said, if she invites us one more time, let’s just get this over with.

Kate [00:12:28]:
Because eventually it’s rude to say no one more time. You kind of have to say yes. I always tell people, don’t stop inviting. They eventually have to say yes. But she invites us to church. And, you know, New York, we get on the F train. The last stop in the F train in Jamaica, Queens. And we lived in the Village.

Kate [00:12:45]:
So this is a long subway ride. And we’re like thinking, oh, Lord, what are we getting? What have we gotten ourselves into? Well, we get out of the subway, and the church is about two blocks away. And the church was in a big old movie theater. So we’re walking to the church, and you could almost sense the building pulsating, like something was going on. Now, they were having a big gospel choir that night, so that was part of it. But also the Holy Spirit. You know, when you don’t know what the Holy Spirit or who he is, it’s very intimidating. But we walk into this church, we find out it’s an all black holiness church, which, if you know, that’s the men sit on one side, the women on the other.

Kate [00:13:27]:
The women wear dresses, they don’t wear makeup, they don’t wear jewelry. It’s a very strict sect, I guess, of Christianity, I don’t know. Well, denomination, wonderful people, but just different. I mean, I was raised Episcopalian. I didn’t know any of this. And the other thing is in the lobby, there are crutches hanging on the wall of people that have been healed, empty wheelchairs. We’re thinking, what farm planet did we just get dropped on because we just had no experience with this. Well, she seats us in the front row.

Kate [00:14:00]:
We’re the only three white faces in an all black church. Mike sitting on one side because the men and women are separated. Our friend June and I were on the other side. And the pastor just gave this fiery salvation message because I’m pretty sure she said to him, they need to get saved. So, you know, put it all on because they need, they need salvation. Well, at the end with his, you know, his altar call, Mike’s hand went up on his side, mine went up. We didn’t know each other, were saying yes to Jesus. We went forward, gave our hearts to the Lord, and that was it.

Kate [00:14:35]:
You know, we were, we’ve never turned back from that, but we were still living in New York, still, you know, that was night, that was March 31, 1984. A year after that we had our daughter Francesca. And a year after that, we’re still living in New York. Mike’s conducting on Broadway and Radio City. I’m just doing all kinds of different off Broadway things. And we start getting this sense, both of us, that something’s not right here. And we knew the Lord was saying to us, this is not the life that I’ve planned for you. I want you to lay this down kind of like Abraham, you know, walk away from everything, you know, go to a land that I’ll show you, I won’t tell you.

Kate [00:15:16]:
And we didn’t know what to do. We ended up moving back to New Jersey for a while, had our home business started, homeschooling. Way before it was cool, you know, way before. It’s the thing we, everybody does before there were computers. It’s really fun to not have computers, but yeah, I mean, it was just crazy. And we, we ended up down in Florida when Franny was about, gosh, I guess about seven. But it was just such a. Interesting twist and turn.

Kate [00:15:43]:
I like to call it 90 degree turns. You know, you’re going one way with the Lord and then he says, no, I want you to go this completely different way that you were never expecting. And he’ll do that. But if we’re open to hearing his voice, you know, and if we decide to say yes, because we could have said no, we could have stayed in New York and, you know, could have gotten my Tony maybe, I don’t know. But I’m. I don’t look back with any regret. I would not go back to that for a million years, you know, but it was a crazy season.

Doris [00:16:14]:
Yeah. Wow. That’s a powerful story, you know, and talking about when you arrived at this church and it was just so far out of your comfort zone with what way far out? And it’s like, what is this about? Hello. But, but thank you so much for the encouragement of saying don’t give up asking. Because I know sometimes, I mean, we all have been guilty of. We just give up too soon. Like, nevermind, they’re not going to do that, you know, or we just don’t really consider what God can do and you know, like if we keep going with what he leads us to do and not to give up, you know, and so I love that.

Kate [00:16:53]:
Definitely.

Doris [00:16:54]:
That was. That’s great. So I love that and how you both work called or feeling that almost like conviction.

Kate [00:17:02]:
Yeah, it was conviction. Yeah. We’re just both sensing at the same time. We both knew and it was hard. You know, people think you’re crazy when you’ve reached a certain level. My husband has a doctorate. Like I said, he worked his whole life to get to where he got. And then God says, walk away.

Kate [00:17:20]:
And you’re just like, all right. But obedience always has. It always has good at the end. If you’re going to obey, there’s. There’s a price to obey, but there’s also a reward. That’s what I found.

Doris [00:17:32]:
Yes. Well, that’s really encouraging for someone to hear because, you know, there might be someone listening right now who’s kind of struggling with a decision and they feel like, do I just give this all up? And what would that look like? And I think it kind of segues. I love your story that you share. I’m pretty sure it’s in the newest book when you share the story about how you. You really were never planning to be an author and then never, you know, and then the first book kind of came out of nowhere when you were going to speak, I think, with your husband. Right.

Kate [00:18:06]:
So, yeah, God dared me to write that book. He really literally dared me. And I had no interest. I knew I could write like I Knew I was a good writer, but the thought of being an author, I thought, no, God, I don’t want to do that. You know how God is. He can make you do what you don’t want to do. So for me, that’s what I call. My second book was called the God Dare because.

Kate [00:18:29]:
Because of the way I see it all through scripture, how all these different Bible heroes take these amazing steps with the Lord. It’s. It’s God’s call on them. But I call it a God dare because they. They could say no. But by. Because they did it, they changed the world. And it’s just all through scripture.

Kate [00:18:47]:
And that’s what he did to us. I mean, seems crazy, but it felt like that, you know, that he’s just daring you to go a completely different direction. It’s like, okay, Lord, this is you, not me.

Doris [00:19:00]:
Yeah. And so absolutely true that, you know, we can say no. And what if we said no, and then we look back and go, wow, I’m glad I didn’t say no.

Kate [00:19:11]:
Well, we can. We can choose to be chosen. We can choose to be chosen to change the world, or we can say no, and God will find somebody else. Do you know who Reinhard Bonnke was? Do you remember who he was? He was like the Billy Graham of Africa. Huge ministry. Millions came into the kingdom. Well, when he was at the height of his ministry, God told him. He said, you were not my first choice.

Kate [00:19:34]:
You were my third choice. So imagine how humbling that is. But imagine those two other guys, you know, they get to heaven, and God says, look what you turned down. And that. That strikes terror into my heart. I’m like, God, I. I didn’t meet you till I was 29, so I’ve already missed a lot. I don’t want to miss anything else.

Kate [00:19:52]:
I don’t want to go to heaven and see, there’s all these blank pages. This was yours, you know, And I think for so many of us, fear will stop us. Comfort zone. So if anybody’s listening that’s struggling, just pray. Ask the Lord for confirmation. He will show you. Get some Christians that you know that have a strong walk with the Lord to pray for you. Because it may well be God saying, step into something crazy.

Kate [00:20:17]:
Step into something scary, because it usually is, you know, I mean, you know, writing a book is scary. It’s not easy. You’re putting yourself out there, hoping somebody’s gonna actually read it and get something from it.

Doris [00:20:30]:
Yeah, it definitely is. And it’s just kind of reminder of, this is God. This is your calling. And I’m not gonna make it about me. You know, like, well, what if I fail? Or what if this isn’t good? Or I don’t sell enough copies? Or, you know, and so just like you were saying earlier, the obedience is the important step to take. And step out in faith and obedience, and then he does the rest. But I also love how you brought out that point, which was really golden, about how if we’re not going to say yes to something, someone else will. And sometimes we’re that someone else.

Doris [00:21:06]:
You know, we might be the third person God is calling to do something, and so we don’t have to, like, take offense for third place. It’s just like that, that’s what we were supposed to do. And I love that. I love that. That’s really cool. And just talking about your book because so many women can relate to all your books, actually. And I love the God dare, because we all can relate to that for sure. And you were talking about that after party because I know you kind of think about on Broadway right when the show’s over.

Doris [00:21:39]:
Is that kind of. Yeah, I heard you talk about that.

Kate [00:21:41]:
Yeah, there’s an after party and, you know, it’s a time for everybody to get together, kind of look at what they did, realize it was good, congratulate themselves. But then, okay, what’s the next audition? What’s the next thing I’m going to do? But it’s a good time to examine what you did and to look back in Pride. And I find that’s the same with motherhood. You know, it’s. It’s an after party is a good time. It’s not. You’re not sitting there dissecting everything and what was wrong and how terrible it is. It’s a joyful time.

Kate [00:22:12]:
And so many women get to the empty nest and they’re just miserable. You know, they’re just stuck in that. I don’t know who I am. I don’t know what to do with my life, which is nothing wrong with that, but God is laying out a whole new future for you. You know, raising kids was a season amazing, important. You change the world in that as you raise your children. But once they’re gone, what are you going to do with the next 40, 50, 60 years? We have to think that way. You know, what’s that thing? We’re not going to sit in bed and watch Netflix and eat Cheetos.

Kate [00:22:46]:
There’s a purpose for us. You know, we’re put on this planet for a reason. Especially think about that you were saved till now. You know, I believe we’re in the end times. And the fact that God could have put us on this planet anytime in the last however many 6,000 years, he chose the end. He chose. He saved us till now. When you think about that, that’s pretty mind blowing that he has us here because of what he wants us to do.

Kate [00:23:14]:
Each of us has an assignment to build the kingdom. But we have to say yes. Like with Reinhard Bonnke, you know, somebody has to say yes. And if you look at it that way and ask the Lord, what is my place in this? You know what, in the grand scheme of this, of salvation and of getting as many people in the boat as we can, what’s my part? It can be huge. It can be. There is no huge, big or small. I don’t think in the kingdom. I think it’s just a matter of obedience.

Kate [00:23:41]:
You either are obeying or you’re not. You know, so true that it to me. Yeah.

Doris [00:23:47]:
And you know, I like how you just was. You were talking about how to be prepared, you know, for like when I liken that to. Okay, like when you walked in to that stage door that day and it’s like, you’re on Kate, this is it. And you know, so. But you were prepared for it ahead of time. You know, it’s not like you didn’t know the lines or you weren’t. You hadn’t been practicing. You were diligent in doing that and said yes to that role.

Doris [00:24:15]:
But then I also love how you just then brought out the fact that thinking about empty nest is not just a. For the woman who’s already there at the empty nest season.

Kate [00:24:26]:
Right.

Doris [00:24:27]:
We can prepare ahead. And I know you talk about that in your book, the things that women can do now, you know, maybe young moms even can do now and just have that mindset that we are raising our children to follow Jesus and discipling them. So if you could share a little bit about that, because I think that’s encouraging.

Kate [00:24:45]:
Yeah. We have to remember we’re raising them to go. That’s the whole point. And every day they’re getting a little bit closer to that. But if you’ve still got kids at home and you know this is looming, maybe in the next couple of years, now’s the time to start thinking about it. And that was my mistake. I just never. It just never occurred to me because we were.

Kate [00:25:04]:
Since she was an only child, we were very involved in helping navigate the whole Nashville music, all that stuff until she finally left home just to kind of help her pave the way. And whatever was happening, we wanted to be part of it just to protect her. But once she was gone, then it really hit me like a ton of bricks. And I just thought, what do I do now? Because that was every. I was a stay at home mom and, and the thought of now I’ve got all this time to fill, which actually is a wonderful thing. But at the time it just felt like this weight on me and it was really hard. So what I did, I started volunteering, which really helped. And I always recommend women to do that.

Kate [00:25:44]:
But if you’re, if you’ve still got kids at home, you’re not quite at that point, start thinking about, start praying about it, start preparing about for it if you know what you’re going to do. If you know, like I know the Lord’s told me to say open a business or go back to college. What can you start doing now to start preparing for that? If he’s calling you to go back to college, well, can you take one class a year or one semester at a time? You don’t have to do the whole thing, but how much closer you’ll be to your goal. Or if you want to start a business, well, go work for somebody that has a small business or go online and see what all is involved. Because there’s a lot. If you’re going to have a business, there’s a lot to that all. Or maybe you want to go into politics. I mean, there’s a million things.

Kate [00:26:29]:
Or write a book, whatever that is. Start praying more than anything is pray to know that you’re on the right track. But also start using the resources. I mean, we didn’t have YouTube when I was growing up. There was no Facebook. You know, when we, even when she was, I think Frannie was 18 when Facebook came out. So for me to do any of this writing or anything, there were really no resources, but now there’s so many. So if you’re a woman with kids still at home or they’re going this fall or whatever, and it’s just looming and terrifying, you don’t let it, don’t let it terrify you.

Kate [00:27:03]:
It’s a really great season. The best thing, even though the kids are gone and you’re looking across that dinner table and they’re not there, there’s all this freedom. All of a sudden you actually do have freedom to do the stuff you want. Maybe you’d like more than 20 minutes of Bible study in the morning. You know, you can spend two hours. You know what I mean? There’s so much more you can do. You can go out to lunch with friends or go out to dinner with your husband. We took our grandkids recently to Chick Fil a.

Kate [00:27:33]:
It was $100, more than 100, to take these kids for lunch. And I thought, man, if you’re a mom, that finally they’re gone, there’s some extra cash, you and your husband can have a nice dinner. And that’s another thing keep pouring into your marriage now. Don’t let things get to where the kids are gone and you’re looking at each other going, I don’t even know you. There’s this very sad phenomenon called gray divorce. I don’t know if your listeners have heard of that, but it’s becoming more and more common, even among Christian couples, that the kids go. They have nothing in common anymore, and they get divorced. So I talk a lot about maintaining that intimacy with your husband, because we know God is first, but he’s next.

Kate [00:28:20]:
He comes before the kids, which is hard when they’re really little. I mean, you’re 247 when they’re little. But still, there’s a way to have a date night do something where you can maintain that relationship because it’s not hard for it to. Not hard for couples to split up because the kids are that buffer. And if there were issues simmering under the surface, it’s easy to kind of just push them to the side. But once the kids are gone, you’re looking at each other and it’s become a real problem. So spend that time now to make that a priority.

Doris [00:28:55]:
Yeah, great advice. And yeah. Because you don’t want to look at each other after the kids are gone and go, I don’t even know who you are.

Kate [00:29:03]:
Who are you? I don’t even know if I still like you. And you may not, but you have to plan. It’s like you don’t plan for retirement when you’re retired. Right. You plan years before. Well, same with your marriage, especially if you’ve got younger ones. Just do what you can to pour into it. I have like 20 date night ideas in the book just to make it.

Kate [00:29:23]:
To make people give them an idea that this is not as hard as you think. You know, you don’t. Doesn’t have to be going out and spending a hundred dollars on a meal. There’s a ton of other things you can do to just maintain that closeness. Because he’s gonna be there when the kids and the Legos and the mess is gone, you know, so that, that’s probably one of the most important things to do before. For your nest is empty.

Doris [00:29:46]:
Yeah. Wow, that is so good. And I love in the book how you do share those things and for people because sometimes they’re like, I don’t know what to do. So they can just get your book and then they’ll know. And so I love that. And how in the book too that you share different stories from different women and you know, their experiences and how you’ve, you broke down that you have these like types of moms based on these three birds. Yes. Could you share a little bit about that? That was so fun.

Kate [00:30:19]:
Sure. Oh sure. Well, you’re thinking nest. It kind of makes birds make sense. Well, I see it as three types of mama birds. There’s the swallow, who’s the one that’s kind of looking forward to the emptiness. Not everybody is sad and scared about. There’s some that, look, I know where I’m going when you kids are gone.

Kate [00:30:37]:
Love you, but bye. I mean, they may still have some sad, you know, mourning and stuff, but they’re ready to go. And then there’s the mourning dove. And we know, you know, they’re sad little coos that they make and they just sound so sad. And that’s the mom who just kind of gets stuck. She’s in that and she can’t really see a purpose other than being mom. And once that purpose is gone, she’s very sad and confused and can sometimes sit in that for a while. And then there’s the robin mom.

Kate [00:31:06]:
It’s kind of a combo of both. She wants to move on, but she’s also kind of stuck. And that’s what I was, I was more that combo mom that saw that, yeah, there has to be more. But this is really hard. You know, we can get into self pity. We can, we can just get stuck there. I, I talked to a mom recently who’s, you know, it’s been three years since my kids left. I’m like, three years, you need to get on this.

Kate [00:31:31]:
You know, it’s time to move out of that because there is so much more. And I think a lot of women think that was it being a mom, that was my call, my purpose. I have nothing now unless they have kids and I’m a grandma. That is not true. God has ordained something for you from before the foundation of the world and that it’s up to us to find out what that is through prayer, through getting other people to pray, you know, through step out that’s why I say step out and volunteer. Because if nothing else, you may find your calling in that. And if nothing else, find a younger mom you can mentor because you know more than she does. Right.

Kate [00:32:11]:
You’ve been through it. You can help her. And there’s tons of younger moms, you know, they’re going to Instagram for their information, for their mothering tips, and you’re not going to get it on Instagram or a podcast of all young moms. They need the older voices that. To the tightest two women to speak into them and say, you can get through it. Let me help you. You know, here’s what I can do and here’s how I can advise you. We really need that.

Kate [00:32:35]:
So if nothing else, at least do that. Yeah, I think that’ll help a lot of other women, you know.

Doris [00:32:40]:
Sure.

Doris [00:32:41]:
Yeah.

Doris [00:32:41]:
And I love it. It is so biblical, you know, for the Titus 2 woman to mentor other women and young women. And we can learn a lot from each other, too. But also, you know, sharing what we know with. There are many young women out there who have not had a mother figure in their life. You know, that has been many. And so they need a mother figure that is a follower of Jesus, you know, that is a believer and looks at things through a biblical perspective and a godly lens and can impart those beautiful things on to whatever it is they share, you know, with them. And mentorship is so precious.

Doris [00:33:27]:
So. And I very much. And you know, of course we have your beautiful daughter. She is talented and she is serving the Lord in her song and with, you know, all that she does and that, that is really a blessing to see that come to pass, you know, when your child and but you talk about prodigals in your book too, because there’s a lot of moms who are struggling because their child has walked away from the faith, but to just keep encouraging them in that. And so I love how you.

Kate [00:34:01]:
Yeah. And I mean, really, the only answer to that is prayer and intercession because I like to remind them that God Jesus leaves the 99 and he goes for the 1, and your child is the one. There are lots of kids that have walked away from the. From the church because this world just sucks them in, you know, all the crazy in this world. But he knows better than you do. He loves them more than you do, and he’s going after him. But just pray, pray, pray. And if there’s any communication, keep that open.

Kate [00:34:32]:
Sometimes there’s not. Sometimes kids just cut their parents off. But, you know, the prodigal son did come back. He got to that point where he realized this is not working, and pray that, you know, the one thing I always pray, because I have family members, most of them are not saved, but I pray, Lord, send an ambassador into their lives that can. That they’ll listen to, because they’re not going to listen to me, but they’re going to listen to somebody else. And that’s a powerful thing. I think if you’re a mom of prodigal, pray for that person to just come in and hit them with the Holy Spirit, you know, that can. That can help.

Doris [00:35:08]:
Amen.

Doris [00:35:09]:
Yeah.

Doris [00:35:09]:
And when we were talking earlier about how saying yes to whatever God is calling us to do, our yes might be an answer to somebody’s prayer, some mom’s prayer for their child who needs to hear, you know, a truth from someone like you say outside the family that they’ll be open to listen to. And, you know, sometimes we’re the water, sometimes we plant the seeds. And. But, you know, that’s the beauty of all of that. And.

Kate [00:35:35]:
Right.

Doris [00:35:36]:
Yeah. So that is. That is so encouraging for a mom who’s listening right now. You know, and even if you’re not a mom listening right now, there might be someone in your family who you have a burden for because they’re lost. And. And just to surrender that, you know, surrender it to God and just trust him. And like, you said prayer, which is why, too, I love in your book, how at the end of each chapter, which I also love, your chapters aren’t hugely long, so that. Yeah, so it’s.

Doris [00:36:05]:
It’s great. And you can get through it. And then at the end, you have the discussion questions, and then you go into, like, scripture verses that are encouraging for, you know, applicable for that. And then you have prayer. So sometimes we need a little help with the prompt, you know, with the prayer. So that is. That is so important. And.

Doris [00:36:26]:
Yeah, so this has been so amazing. And I. I was just going to ask if is there anything else that you feel led to share to someone who’s listening to Dave? Because I know, like, really, when we can think about you and I in different seasons, even, like, I was a banker for 29 years, and I didn’t even start doing podcasting or writing books and speaking and all that until after I was 50. I went back to school at 55, graduated at 59. You know, so, yeah, so it’s like you’re not. It’s not. You’re not done. So, like you said, don’t, like, just Sit in the grandma waiting room.

Kate [00:37:03]:
You know, like, because you may not be a grandma, you know, your kids may not have, they may not get married. And if you’re waiting for that, don’t get, don’t fall into that trap. But I think, you know, I tell women all the time. If you told me 15 years ago, Kate, in 15 years you’ll have written four books. Really? Because I have a devotional companion that just came out to the book. So you’ve written four books, you’ll be part of a successful podcast, you’ll speak around the country. I’d have said, you’re crazy. That’s not me.

Kate [00:37:32]:
But God said, that is you. And for everybody listening, God has something else for you. He has another name. Like I can call myself an author, you know, it makes no sense that I can even say that, but because I was bold enough to step out and do what God was calling me to do, now I have this whole other life. And that’s what the empty nest is. It’s this whole other life. It’s going back to college, it’s starting to step out and start a podcast. That’s not an easy thing.

Kate [00:38:02]:
But you stepped out. Now you’re impacting women all over the place and what a, what a world changing thing that is, you know, and we’re not all going to start podcasts, but whatever it is, maybe God’s saying, hey, I want you to volunteer at the Alzheimer’s unit in your hospital because of the people you’re going to impact, the families. You know what I mean? It doesn’t, it doesn’t always have. We think it has to be something big, and it really doesn’t. It, it’s all big in God’s eyes. If we’re obeying, you know, it comes really comes down to obedience. You can say no if you want, but please don’t, Please step in and do that thing. It may seem crazy, and it usually is if it’s God, but do it anyway.

Doris [00:38:38]:
Yeah, do it anyway and do it afraid if you need to. But I love how kind of that’s been. The theme through our conversation is like, just say yes. Obedience brings the blessing. It may not look like what we think, but it definitely is worth it to say yes to God and, you know, to encourage others in their walk. And like you said, we don’t have to start something. We can become part of something already happening. And, you know, you just never know.

Doris [00:39:09]:
Or like in your case, going back to the theater, you. You never even realized that you were going to step into the lead role in that. But it was all part of God’s plan and how he worked all of that in your past. And so that was really. That’s really cool. I love that story so much. And so, you know, this book is great. I love how you remind us that mom is not our only name.

Doris [00:39:33]:
And that can also go for any other role that we try to just tie our entire identity into. Because then when we. But we’re still, I mean, moms after they leave the nest, but it’s in a different capacity. And so reminding women, like you just said, I can call myself an author. You know, he. He kind of. He names us, but then he can rename us in different ways that we never would even fathom. Like, you know, he does that exceedingly, abundantly above.

Kate [00:40:04]:
He does. He really does.

Doris [00:40:06]:
Yeah.

Doris [00:40:06]:
It’s amazing.

Doris [00:40:07]:
Well, I love this, Kate. This has been so encouraging. I’m so glad we got to finally do this. And, and I really enjoyed talking to you too, because we really only met in person, I think once it was at a conference and I think we just passed each other at the food table or something. I want to say it was like one of the spark conferences or something. And probably.

Kate [00:40:25]:
Yeah, yeah.

Doris [00:40:26]:
And it’s just, you know, you get so busy, you don’t get to really talk with people. So I really love this opportunity to chat with you and to hear a lot of the. The wisdom that God has given you to share. And I would love if you would share how the listener can connect with you and resources that you have to offer and how they can find you.

Kate [00:40:44]:
Sure. Well, they can find me @KateBattistelli.com and on all social media. I’m just Kate Battistelli. So I’d love to connect with any of your listeners that, you know, follow me and we’ll just chat, whatever. But I do have a special offer. If you’d like to read the introduction and the first chapter of the book for free. All you do is text afterparty, all one word, like no spaces to 44144. And you’ll get that and then a couple other fun goodies that we like to send out.

Kate [00:41:14]:
So yeah, it’s a way to at least see is this something that I want to dive deeper into? And like I said, there’s the book and now, now there’s the Devotional Companion, which is a journal. It’s a 31 day devotional. So it takes you a little bit deeper into all of this with some space for writing out your own prayers. And all of that. So that’s fun.

Doris [00:41:34]:
Nice. And I’ll have all that in the show notes so people can find you the links and everything. And I just want to mention, too, I really thought it was so precious how in. In the book, you do an invitation to the mom to the after party. Like, we’re invited to the after party. And, you know, it’s like, we don’t rsvp. We don’t have a choice for that.

Kate [00:41:55]:
Attendance is mandatory.

Doris [00:41:57]:
Attendance is mandatory. That’s fantastic. So thank you so much for being on, and I hope to have you back on again. This was so fun.

Kate [00:42:05]:
Thanks, Doris. I’d love to come back.

Doris [00:42:06]:
Yeah, it’d be so good. And, friends, thank you so much for listening today. I know what Kate shared really encouraged you, and if you could share this episode, I would love it so much. And I hope you join me next time when I talk with another woman who’s taking action where her passion, compassion, and conviction intersect. Until then, friends, have a blessed week, and I’ll talk to you soon.

On today’s episode of Fierce Calling, I’m talking with Hadassah Treu, an award-winning international author, poet, and blogger, who is passionate about encouraging the brokenhearted and helping others find hope in difficult seasons. Hadassah encourages us to discover the blessings and purposes in the painful seasons of our lives.

From Bulgaria to Austria and back, Hadassah shared how her most painful experiences have become the birthplace of blessings, and how surrendering our struggles to God can transform our journey.

If you’re ready to rediscover lasting joy and resilience through faith, this episode is packed with wisdom and practical encouragement to help you keep moving forward, no matter what you’re facing. I know what Hadassah shares will encourage, inspire, and challenge you, so listen in while I have a chat with Hadassah Treu.

00:00 Surrender to Rediscover Joy

06:32 From Illusions to Spiritual Growth

09:46 Faith Journey Through Writing

13:01 Spiritual Journeys in Christian Europe

17:37 “Finding Growth Through Pain”

21:47 Faith and God’s Definition of Good

24:53 Facing Failure: Losses and Gains

28:39 Pursuing Spiritual Maturity and Growth

30:58 Reflecting on God’s Work Through Journaling

34:02 Prophetic Poetry of Eternal Hope

37:16 “New Creations in Christ”

40:14 Inspiring Interview with Hadassah

You can connect with Hadassah at onthewaybg.com where you’ll find her blog posts, books, social media links, and helpful resources.

Hadassah Treu is an award-winning international author, blogger, poet, speaker, and spiritual growth mentor. She is the Encouraging Blogger Award Winner for 2020, the Literature Award Winner of the Municipality of Pazardzhik, Bulgaria for 2024, and a winner of the National Literary Translation Award “Stoyan Bakardzhiev”, Bulgaria for 2025.  Hadassah loves to encourage and motivate people to stand firm in the faith, and grow spiritually by applying biblical truths in their lives. She loves diving deeper into the Word of God and finding hidden treasures. Her blog is on the Top 100 Faith Blogs (spot 19) on the web by Feedspot in 2025.

Hadassah is a regular contributor to several faith-based platforms like Devotable, Koinonia, COMPEL Pro Proverbs 31 Ministries Blog,  COMPEL Pro Training Freelancing Group leader, and Blogger Voices Network contributor. She has been featured on The Upper Room, (In)Courage, Proverbs 31 Ministries, Her View From Home, Living by Design Ministries, Thoughts About God, Aletheia Today, Today’s Christian Living,   The Way Back to Ourselves, and other popular sites.

Hadassah is also a contributing author to 14 devotional and poetry anthologies. She is also the author of 2 poetry books in Bulgarian: “A Guarantee for Another Life” and “Memories Keeper.”

Her first solo book “Draw Near: How Painful Experiences Become a Birthplace of Blessings” with Calla Press Publishing was released on March 15,  2024. Order HERE!

Hadassah is no stranger to suffering and losses. From the platform of her greatest pains equipped with lessons gathered on the way, she delivers a powerful message of comfort and hope, found in God’s Word.

Check out Surrender the Joy Stealers: Rediscover the Jesus Joy in You 6-week Bible study rooted in John 15. You can find more info at https://dorisswift.com/book/

Find my free resources including Fear Fighting Bible Verses, Simple Tips for Sharing Your Faith, Surrender the Joy Stealers, Step Out of Your Doubt and Into Your Calling ebook, and more on my dorisswift.com homepage!

Did you know that following, rating, and leaving a review over at Podchaser or Apple Podcasts helps others discover the show too? I would so appreciate it, friend!

Check out my speaking page, grab my flyer, and let’s talk about me speaking at your next women’s event…

I hope this episode encouraged, inspired, and challenged you to cultivate community, live and walk in the value, purpose, and worth God gave you, and take action where your passion, compassion, and conviction intersect.

If you’re looking for a speaker for your next women’s conference, retreat, luncheon, or workshop, reach out and connect with me on my speaker page at https://www.womenspeakers.com/florida/edgewater/speaker/doris-swift

Let’s have a chat about your next event!

Stay tuned for more amazing content and remember to check the show notes for all the links mentioned.

Thank you for being a part of our community. We are grateful for your continued support and encourage you to embrace the unique gifts that make you magnificently you.

I hope you’ll join me next time when I talk with another guest who is taking action where her passion, compassion, and conviction intersect …

Until then friend, have a blessed week, and I’ll talk to you soon.

With love and joy,

Doris

P.S. Don’t forget to follow us on social media for bite-sized wisdom and inspiration from Doris and our incredible guests! 📲

Doris Swift [00:01:40]:
What is threatening to steal your joy? What is it that feels so heavy right now that you could barely stand? God has a plan and his plan is to surrender it. Surrender it to him. It might be a prodigal, it might be a relationship, a marriage, something with your job. So many things. We have so many amazing blessings, but there are so many things in our life that threaten to steal our joy. I’m Doris Swift, author of the award winning six week Bible study, Surrender the Joy. Rediscover the Jesus joy in you. And it helps women rediscover the overflowing, ever present Jesus joy within that fills, empowers and ripens the fruit that God produces in our lives.

Doris Swift [00:02:31]:
Using personal and biblical stories, I share how you can identify your joy stealers. Surrender them to God. Reawaken the joy within and share the joy with others. You can do it on your own or with a group. Check it out, friends. Surrender the joy stealers. Rediscover the Jesus joy in you. It’s available on all the online retailers.

Doris Swift [00:02:56]:
It’s time to take your joy back. Welcome back to the show. Today I’m excited to welcome my friend, Hadassah Troy. She is an award winning international authority poet. She’s a popular blogger and speaker and she loves motivating people to grow in faith and keep a hopeful outlook, which I love that so much because right now we just need hope. We need to share hope. We need to allow people to know the hope of Christ and bring that to the forefront and share the gospel. So I love that Hadassah is doing that and we are going to also be talking about her book, Draw near how painful experiences, experiences become the birthplace of blessings.

Doris Swift [00:03:44]:
And that alone should keep you listening throughout this whole episode. Thank you for being on the show. Welcome Hadassah.

Hadassah Treu [00:03:54]:
So much stories. I love your podcast. I love the topic Fierce Calling. This is really amazing. And I love the word fears.

Doris Swift [00:04:02]:
All right.

Hadassah Treu [00:04:04]:
Really? Because. Because we need this. We need this as followers of Christ and as you said, in this dark world when chaos and frustration and everything is growing, so to say, in negative sense, we need to stay fierce. We need to stay brave. We need to start to stay resilient and keep following the Lord wherever he leads and keep making disciples because this is our greatest mission.

Doris Swift [00:04:33]:
Amen. Amen. And you are coming to us from Bulgaria, which is amazing and I would love if you would share a little bit about your story, about your background, how you came to know Jesus and how you’re taking action, where your passion, compassion and conviction intersect.

Hadassah Treu [00:04:54]:
Yes, gladly. I’m coming from Bulgaria. I’m actually a Bulgarian and currently living in Bulgaria. It was not like this my whole life. And when I came to Christ, Bulgaria was still a communist country. So it was quite a wonder and miracle that I came to Christ as a teenager. Then for first time, I prayed to God, whom I didn’t know, and placed like an ultimatum to the universe because I wanted that my life to find some meaning. I wanted simply meaning and purpose in my life.

Hadassah Treu [00:05:33]:
And I felt this void, I felt this emptiness as a teenager. I guess a lot of teenagers are going through this phase, this is normal. But for me it was even heavier because I came from a family with difficult history and difficult relationships. And yeah, I needed God. So through arranging miraculous meetings and yeah, how only how God can do things, I came here, the gospel for the first time. And I immediately responded by faith. And this is how it all started. And then in my 30s, I met my future husband, the love of my life, so to say.

Hadassah Treu [00:06:32]:
And he however, was not a Bulgarian, he was an Austrian. And we married and I lived for 15 years in Austria. This is really a beautiful country, so I highly recommend to visit. And then actually in my 30s, it all started. And by all I mean the painful losing of my illusions and the painful gaining of reality. So it all started with facing a lot of struggles like infertility, anxiety disorders, panic attacks, marriage problems and a lot of other painful experiences. But this was actually the, the deep phases of spiritual formation and spiritual growth. And five years ago I got another blow, so to say the heaviest in my life up to now.

Hadassah Treu [00:07:43]:
I lost my husband unexpectedly. And yeah, this was followed by a lot of life altering changes. So I moved back to Bulgaria again, where I’m living here since four and a half years. And this is in short, my life story. But of course this life story has birthed this fierce calling. And I love the definition of how you define this fierce calling, this intersection of passion, compassion and conviction. I think this is one of the best definitions I’ve ever came to, to the word calling. Ms.

Hadassah Treu [00:08:26]:
So really wonderful. And my, my calling currently in this phase of my life is to encourage the broken hearted to trust God in the darkness of pain and adversity so they can keep their faith and so they can endure. And the passion is clear. The passion is really this to encourage, to motivate, to help. The compassion goes really to the hurting, to the wounded, to the brokenhearted and to the weary, to the spiritual weary, to the emotional weary, to the ones who simply are facing an intense emotional and spiritual pain and they are on the edge to give up or to bail or to give in to discouragement and despair. So this is where my, my compassion goes the most and my conviction. And I hope I will keep this conviction through, through my whole life till the end of my earthly life. My conviction is to keep moving forward, upward, Godward, to keep trusting God.

Hadassah Treu [00:09:46]:
Especially when things don’t make sense, especially when we can’t find any explanation, any meaning, any reasons, and when we can’t find the answers of our wise, so to say, to continue, trust in God, to continue following God, to continue following the Lord and respond, always respond to his call and invitation to move on the way of love and on the way of faith upward and upward and upward. And this calling has found its expression in my writing and speaking, which I started approximately eight years ago. The active phase, the preparation started earlier. Of course, the Lord has prepared me for this earlier. But eight years ago I started with my blog on the waybg.com which is now in the top 100 blogs actually on spot 19 feed spot for 225. And currently all this has led to three books. One of this is drawn here that you already mentioned, two poetry books. I’m also a co author of 14 other books, so anthologies and devotions and yeah, I’ve been writing on a lot of faith centered books platforms, freelancing and speaking on conferences and on my YouTube channel.

Hadassah Treu [00:11:27]:
And actually I’m using really the doors and the channels God is opening for me to spread this message and really to live my fierce calling.

Doris Swift [00:11:40]:
Beautiful. And thank you for taking each piece of the fierce calling definition and just sharing how God is using you and moving in your life in each of those three categories that intersect and have brought you forth in this fierce calling that you have. And it’s just a beautiful thing. And I love to your name I’ll have to mention because that is also biblically speaking, Queen Esther’s Hebrew name. Right. So. And that is just precious. And so when you were talking about how you came to Christ as a teenager and then after that, you know, you found your husband, you had a lot of heartbreaking struggles.

Doris Swift [00:12:28]:
And I, and I am very sorry about the loss of your husband and all that you were going through. You went back to your home country, Bulgaria, and you know, all the things you mentioned, there’s so much to unpack there. But I was wondering what is the temperature in Bulgaria and where you are as far as Christianity and in your family?

Hadassah Treu [00:12:53]:
How.

Doris Swift [00:12:54]:
How is that in your family? Do you do you have other family members become believers or.

Hadassah Treu [00:13:01]:
Bulgaria and also Austria. They are Christian countries. In Austria the main religion is the Catholic, so the Catholics are prevailing while Bulgaria is Orthodox, the Orthodox Christianity. However, I. I’m a member of Evangelical Pentecostal Church church and interestingly this was the church where I actually was brought for first time and where I believed more than 30 years ago. Yes. And now when I came back I went to the same church and yeah, it was really like come back. And regarding my family, the only one who is, let’s say a devout, a Christian follower in my family is my sister who also believed at the same age nearly when, when I came to Christ.

Hadassah Treu [00:13:59]:
And I also do believe that my father who died one and a half years ago near his death, also found the way to Christ. This is my, my firm conviction. And as for the rest of my family, I’m keeping them in my prayers and I firmly believe that, that God will answer these prayers because this is really the most important thing. Our salvation and getting to know him and the life he has for us.

Doris Swift [00:14:37]:
Amen and thank you for sharing all of that and how beautiful it is that you have this message of hope and you have been going forth and speaking boldly about Jesus and in your book draw near how painful experiences become the birthplace of blessings. If you could expand a little bit about how you share these things in your book and are there maybe a couple of takeaways you’d really want the listener to know and overall what you want your readers to take away from your book.

Hadassah Treu [00:15:17]:
Yes, the idea of the concept of this book was born really in the first one and a half years after I lost my husband. And I need to say that this time was really, really the most painful time in my life. I’ve really been through a lot and I always thought, oh, it can get worse. So I, I now have lived through so much the. But. But this was really the worst. I. I barely survived day, but I live day by day simply.

Hadassah Treu [00:15:50]:
And the worst was not simply the, the loss itself and all the other losses that it induces, but it was the struggle with God. It, it was the struggle of keeping my faith alive and keeping my trust in God alive, especially when there were no answers and there were only questions. And that’s why I needed urgently to have, for me, for myself to have a right theology of suffering, so to say, and to. To start to train my mind to think through, through how God sees things and through the biblical perspective about suffering. Because if it’s only pain, pain, pain, what is actually the good in it? Yes, we will give to many losses, but surely God will give us a lot of blessings too, and a lot of gains. So my question was, okay, these are the losses, but what are the gains? Of course, the gains are mainly spiritual. But surely this is not in vain what we are going through as believers. And the Lord has prepared a lot of good things in stuff for us.

Hadassah Treu [00:17:07]:
Of course I need to say here, good. The definition of good, the good. How God defines good is quite different from how we define good in many, many cases. This I need to say because they simply two main reasons for this and, and one reason is, are temporal. We are finite beings. We see things only from this temporal perspective. God is infinite, he is eternal. And he sees things that we even can’t forone and imagine.

Hadassah Treu [00:17:37]:
So as he beautifully says, my ways are not your ways and my thoughts are not your thoughts. And I think this is one of the the biggest lessons for me are to experience first the full weight of the pain of this realization that his ways are not my ways and his thoughts are not my thoughts. But then also to experience the comfort of this, of this statement. And this is of course the process of growth. So then this, this book was born. And I wanted through this book, through going through 13 painful experiences which I chose like betrayal, anxiety, rejection, grief, pain, depression, hopelessness, simply to share personal stories, biblical teaching, and simply what God has taught me in this. And then really then to practically help the reader to see the concrete losses in each of these experiences, to name it, to identify it, but also to see the list of the all the gains that the Lord has prepared for us in each of these experiences if only we press in and press up and don’t turn our backs to him, but really submit ourselves to this painful process. So this is the idea, it is still the idea of my book.

Hadassah Treu [00:19:09]:
And I hope that the people who read it are really getting this value out of it. As far as I’m reading reviews and feedbacks, what the most people say that this is a book which they can have constantly on their nightstand and refer in time and time again, especially if they are going through specific trauma or specific painful experience.

Doris Swift [00:19:41]:
And that is so encouraging and also just affirmation the Lord has given you that this is a message that you were called to write about and to share your personal experiences. And you know, sometimes we have to be very vulnerable and share experiences when the Lord leads and as he leads us to do so because it encourages others. And that is such a biblical truth that he has brought forth that, you know, we go through these things. So then we can in turn comfort others who are also going through it. And we’re actually comforting because we’re the hands and feet of Jesus. And I love how you said press in and press up because that, that really is a powerful phrase right there. Press in and press up. Because how you were saying, you know, there’s times in our lives where we don’t have answers, we just have questions.

Doris Swift [00:20:40]:
And yes, just seeing what God is doing in the big picture because there, this world is broken. We’re going to, like you say, go through suffering and heartbreak and heartache, which was never meant to be our life. It was never meant to be what God, you know, created us to go through. We were meant for, you know, Eden. So it’s like, you know, going through this but, but just so many things. I, I like how you were talking about gaining the right theology regarding suffering because when we go through suffering in our lives, there’s two directions we can go. We could either John near to God and we can take the perspective of the way that you have been presenting it and how you present it in your book or walk away. But I really feel like a lot of times when people do walk away, you know, God is still pursuing.

Doris Swift [00:21:47]:
So, you know, they, they would hopefully return at some time with even stronger faith. But you know, that’s not everybody’s story, but we would hope that it would be. And so does God, you know, he would not want anyone to perish. So as you encourage people with your book and share your story, I love the perspective that you’ve taken in the book where you show, well, what is the blessings and gain and the fact being that you were, which is an excellent point and I’m so glad you brought it up, is that our definition of good and even the world’s definition of good is not necessarily God’s definition of good. And so can you share maybe some of the blessings and gain? Because it’s not like the world would say gain like we want, like we’re just self focused and want to, you know, for our own personal gain. But it’s gain is something that God blesses us but also glorifies him. So what are some examples of that, Hadassah, of some gains and blessings.

Hadassah Treu [00:22:58]:
We’ll open my book and maybe read some concrete blessings. But I won’t say that the, the overall, of course the overall blessing which we find nearly in all painful experiences is exactly this possibility to lose our illusions. And by illusions I mean beliefs and Miscon. Mis. They’re not necessarily even misconceptions. Sometimes they’re simply immature, immature thinking, immature ideas, immature concepts about God or about ourselves. And this is painful. And then really gain, Gain more of him, more maturely, know him more maturely, know ourselves.

Hadassah Treu [00:23:38]:
And I think, and this is of course the growth and transformation. And this is the, the absolute greatest blessing, I think that that can, that we can experience on this earth because this is the preparation, really God’s training, God’s preparation for eternity, for sharing in his glory. And we know that this is what God wants for us. And we know that he’s preparing us for this. And we can’t stay children if we have to enter in his glory. And if we are and to share with him this. On the throne with him, to sit on the throne with him, then we can stay children. And, and this is I think, the greatest blessing that we need to see from this perspective.

Hadassah Treu [00:24:23]:
But let me open the book and simply read some of the gains in a concrete experience. For example, I here have the chapter the Gifts Hidden in Failure. Example. Let’s take this and I will open to the list at the end.

Doris Swift [00:24:47]:
Yeah. Because even the word failure has different meanings the way we look at it.

Hadassah Treu [00:24:53]:
Yes, yes, yes. And for example, here in my list is. But perhaps I will first read the couple of losses so we can make the contrast. What are the losses? What, what are the gains by failure? So the, the losses, the loss of self confidence and self validation, the loss of self respect, the lot of. The loss of satisfaction and contentment, the loss of motivation, enthusiasm and the willingness to go up, move forward. The law, the loss of other people’s respect, approval and admiration, the loss of a relationship. These are all possible potential losses, not only potential people actually experience, but maybe not all of them in, in all cases of failure. And then the gains when we draw near to God, because this is the important part, when we throw near to God, the gain of spiritual growth and maturity, the gain of experiencing and trusting God’s unconditional love and acceptance in Christ, the gain of humility and dying to self.

Hadassah Treu [00:26:01]:
The gain of learning to depend on God and both in him, the gain of repentance and accepting God’s forgiveness. I think this, this one is especially, especially important because when, when we struggle with failure, we often struggle with feeling that we can’t forgive ourselves or can’t accept the failure. And this can happen often. And this requires humility to, to accept forgiveness from God and then also forgive ourselves, so to say, and, and let go. The gain of finding God’s strength in my weakness or in our weaknesses. The gain of findings, self validation and realization in God alone. The gain of experiencing God’s willingness to forgive, heal and restore. The gain of tested and purified motivation.

Hadassah Treu [00:26:55]:
This one is one of the most important because failure can really help us a lot to purify our motivations and to expose the right motivations if we have some. The gain of growing in perseverance, self discipline and patience. Again, very, very important one. The gain of becoming stronger and more resilient. The gain of aligning our concepts for success with what the word of God says about success.

Doris Swift [00:27:26]:
Yes. Wow, that is amazing. I love all of the things that you talked about there and so encouraging. And I feel like everybody can relate to that. I mean, that’s going to encourage someone listening right now. Because when we look at it from a biblical worldview, from a godly worldview, when we see it through a lens of the Bible and what the Bible teaches and the actual true gospel, because there’s a lot of false gospels out there and there’s a big gospel of self going on right now where people, you know, are focusing on self, self help, self, everything. So I love that you brought that out and, and to how you mentioned humility and dying to self, you know, but also humility to forgive ourselves. Because I think you hit it right there.

Doris Swift [00:28:25]:
There’s so many, and even those who are listening right now who have found it very difficult to forgive themselves, you know, they may not even have any issues forgiving others for wrongs that have been done.

Hadassah Treu [00:28:39]:
Yes.

Doris Swift [00:28:39]:
But for themselves, you know, they can’t. And, but we, but we need to get to that place and how, you know, because sometimes when we think about it, it’s like, well, what does it mean to grow in faith? What does spiritual maturity mean? Like, what does that look like? You know, it’s not like you. I mean, you can get a degree in different biblical things, but what does it actually look like? You know, it has to have some fruit. You know, it’s gotta be. And not just a little fruit. I mean, in John 15, you know, Jesus talks about abundant fruit. And that doesn’t mean like personally prospering from the world’s standards of what prospering looks like. But, but to prosper in what the Lord is doing, you know, in, in the kingdom work that we have been given here on earth.

Doris Swift [00:29:26]:
So that is really very practical, which I love about it is it’s practical and people can like take that and look at it and say, oh yeah, well, that is applicable to my life because you know how sometimes there’s things in the Bible that are descriptive, you know, which isn’t necessarily something applicable to us as far as a specific thing that God is just sharing about and wanting us to know. But then prescriptive. This applies to my life, you know, and how that can. So that is so precious and I love that.

Hadassah Treu [00:30:01]:
And I, I just want to add that there are also reflection questions, prayer. So scripture guided prayer personalized for each painful experience and also what I really love and I think readers also love at the end. So like three, four to five declarations or takeaways that each one can take for himself or herself and just, I don’t know, just write it somewhere or pray with them or whatever because I think I find this for me personally very helpful for my quiet time with the Lord, for my devotional time with Him. I like so writing personal prayers, personal decorate, I mean declarations that also biblical, but I make them my personal declarations. And I think this has power because this helps us to internalize the Word of God. And this is powerful.

Doris Swift [00:30:58]:
Yes, very powerful. And you know, just the fact being too that when we write things down, we can later look and see what God has done. Like I was just telling my husband today, like I was out in, in our room where we have some storage and stuff and we have, we, we’ve gone through a couple of house floods because you know, we live in Florida and there’s hurricanes here. So I have to get a new bookshelf because I’ve got lots of books, of course I love books. And so I, I but I found an old like journal and it had had prayers from years back, you know, I’m, I’m going back a ways, you know, and even prayer requests and things and it’s just, it’s precious to look back and see what God has done because he may not have necessarily answered that prayer in the way that I was praying for an answer, but in a different way because as you said earlier, his ways are higher, you know, his thoughts are higher. And so to just draw near to him and to find his word and what his promises as an encouragement and hope because we do have the hope of Christ, you know, and that is ultimately the greatest hope we could have. And so that is, wow, such a blessing. And I love your blog on the way and that you are also a poet.

Doris Swift [00:32:28]:
So did that start when you were young? Like have you always loved?

Hadassah Treu [00:32:32]:
Yes, loved that actually I started, I could read at 4, at 4 years old. I mean, long before school and at 6 or 7, I already wrote my first poems or stories in rhyme. And I love writing poetry. I think this is simply my language. I wrote a lot in school and unfortunately all my notebooks from this time are gone forever. Doesn’t matter. But then I think someone, when I was 17 or 18 and then moving in adult life and studying and working, I stopped, stopped completely. I buried these gifts of, say, especially the point here.

Hadassah Treu [00:33:18]:
And very, very late in, when I was in my 40s, the Lord spoke specifically about this to me that it’s time to resurrect again this gift. It’s time to use again this gift. And I need to say I was scared. Okay. As a child I didn’t have any fear, but, but as an adult I was scared. And yeah, but I, but I followed, I started so writing again. Poetry and poetry also helped me to process my painful emotions. I need to say, because my first poetry book in Bulgarian, I, I write mainly Bulgarian poetry because this is my mother tongue.

Hadassah Treu [00:34:02]:
I have also some in English, but Bulgarian is my mother tongue. And my first poetry book is this I need to mention because this is how the Lord is working again and his ways are different now. Ways came a couple of days out, was published after the death of my husband. And the thing was that these poems were written in a period of two or three years before his death, so to say. And when I’m reading them and other people in my family, friends and whatever reading these poems, they all say that this is a prophetical book, that this is so sad book and it’s pointing to the eternal hope that we have in Christ, the eternal life. And even the title of my first poetry book is really, I think, symbolic because it’s called A Guarantee for Another Life. Yeah. And I mean when I think about the loss of my husband, so, and I’m referring to the deposit of the Holy Spirit and that he is our guarantee for eternity or for the next life.

Hadassah Treu [00:35:13]:
And then my second poetry book, it came out last year and it was written in this three, four, couple of years after that my husband. And it was really focused mainly on processing my grief. And I hope that with these poems they will also speak to, to other grieving, to other grieving people and express these painful emotions. So. Yeah. And from time to time, but, but I, poetry is a strange thing. I’m not sitting like this and saying, now I will write poetry as I sit to write an article or block. No, it’s strange because sometimes I, I, I call this a heavenly download.

Hadassah Treu [00:36:00]:
Sometimes just. Yeah, just as I’m doing something or in the evening or in the middle of the night or whatever, I’m. And then. So it comes. It starts with the phrase or with the. With the things, and comes, Comes, comes the heavenly download. And it’s not forced. It’s not.

Hadassah Treu [00:36:20]:
I can’t call this even work or whatever. It’s really a strange thing. Yeah. But. But a wonderful gift. Wonderful.

Doris Swift [00:36:28]:
Beautiful. Yeah. And. And so expressive in it, you know, and even if you don’t write poetry, I mean, just reading it, it just, you know, you can just feel the emotion of the poet.

Hadassah Treu [00:36:44]:
Exactly.

Doris Swift [00:36:44]:
And so.

Hadassah Treu [00:36:45]:
Emotion.

Doris Swift [00:36:46]:
Yeah, it comes right out in it. And. And I. And I love that you started when you were younger, but I really think what you shared will encourage someone right now because sometimes people feel like, well, I used to do that and I really loved it, but, you know, I haven’t done that in years, so that’s the end of that. But it can ebb and flow and come back in another season in your life. And. And as you said that we. We have the hope of everlasting life.

Doris Swift [00:37:16]:
And then when we are in Christ, we are new creations and there’s always something fresh and new, like the Word says, you know, that God is doing a new thing and he makes all things new. And so I love that word new and how God really encourages us in that. This has been really a huge blessing to have you on the show. And I know that some of the listeners may have already either read your books or checked out your blog, which you mentioned earlier, maybe have some of the writings that you have shared on Proverbs 31 or on encourage or some of these other very popular sites. But if you could share Hadassah, how can the listser connect with you and find out all about, you know, your. Your blogs and your books and everything so they can connect with you.

Hadassah Treu [00:38:08]:
I would be very happy to connect with your listeners. And the best way to connect is of course, coming on my blog on the way BGCom, and then they can sign in for my newsletter because I think this is really the best way to stay in regular contact. I’m sending my newsletter Keep the Faith with updated contact with helpful resources from other bloggers, writers, speakers with announcements twice in the month. So I don’t want to overwhelm people. So twice in the month. And I’m really enjoying this contact when I’m getting feedback, when I’m getting prayer requests, when I’m getting questions and getting to know people better because, you know, social Media, social media. But I think one of the best ways stay in in email contact. So this is one way.

Hadassah Treu [00:39:01]:
And they can sign in on my website and otherwise, yeah, I’m present on social media with the handle on the way, bgcom on Facebook, Twitter, Pinterest, and with the handle adasatroy on Instagram. I also have a YouTube channel, adasatroy author, where, yeah, I’m also offering this content which I write about in another form and also adding some other stuff too. And yeah, my books on Amazon and also on Goodreads. So I think these are the main places that we can connect with, with people.

Doris Swift [00:39:44]:
Wonderful. Yes. And your last name is pronounced tri, but it’s T, R, E, U, Correct?

Hadassah Treu [00:39:51]:
Troy. Troy, yeah.

Doris Swift [00:39:52]:
Troy.

Hadassah Treu [00:39:55]:
This. Troy is a German word. German. And it has a beautiful meaning. Don’t forget that my husband is an Austrian. Was an Austrian. So Troy means faithful. Faithful, loyal.

Doris Swift [00:40:14]:
Wow. Well, you can’t get a much better last name than that, so that’s amazing. So, wow. Thank you so much again for being on the show and taking time out and just sharing hope and encouragement with those who are listening today. And I know that it’s not by any accident that someone is listening to this today, you know, because there’s something that you shared that they needed to hear. So this has just been a blessing. So thank you for listening and well, Hadassah, thank you for being on the show and I hope to have you back on again soon sometime.

Hadassah Treu [00:40:48]:
Thank you. Thank you, Doris. This was such a joy and pleasure. I really love your podcast and I would be happy to chat again someone in the future. It’s really a pleasure.

Doris Swift [00:40:58]:
I’d be very honored to have you back on this show. And friends, thank you again for listening and I hope you join me next time when I talk with another woman who’s taking action where her passion, compassion, and conviction intersect. Until then, friends, friends, have a blessed week and I’ll talk to you soon.

Welcome back to Fierce Calling! In this episode, host Doris Swift welcomes back her friend and returning guest, Rebecca George—author, speaker, and founder of the Radical Radiance podcast community. Doris and Rebecca dive into themes every woman can relate to, including living in that “in-between-almost-but-not-yet” season, and the struggle of waiting on God’s timing in a world telling us to hurry up, because we’re falling behind.

Rebecca shares insights from her newest book, You’re Not Too Late: Trusting God’s Timing in a Hurry Up World, and opens up about how longing, comparison, and even resentment can creep in, no matter what stage of life you’re in. Together, Doris and Rebecca discuss faith and trusting God with hopes, dreams, and that thing we’re longing for. They also talk about the importance of community, the dangers of the prosperity gospel, and how to cultivate spiritual resiliency in our everyday rhythms of waiting.

Whether you’re waiting for a breakthrough, struggling with unmet desires, or simply looking to find more joy right where you are, this episode promises wisdom, encouragement, and a reminder: it’s not too late for you. Join us as we lean into God’s timing, celebrate kingdom work, and find inspiration for your own fierce calling!

You can connect with Rebecca on Instagram @rebeccageorgeauthor and her website radicalradience.live

Rebecca George is the author of You’re Not Too Late: Trusting God’s Timing in a Hurry Up World, and Do the Thing: Gospel-Centered Goals, Gumption, and Grace for the Go-Getter Girl , and the host of the popular podcast Radical Radiance. Her work has been featured on outlets such as Life Today TV, HomeLife magazine, and Moody Radio. Rebecca and her husband, Dustin, live in East Tennessee.

Check out Surrender the Joy Stealers: Rediscover the Jesus Joy in You 6-week Bible study rooted in John 15. You can find more info at https://dorisswift.com/book/

Find my free resources including Fear Fighting Bible Verses, Simple Tips for Sharing Your Faith, Surrender the Joy Stealers, Step Out of Your Doubt and Into Your Calling ebook, and more on my dorisswift.com homepage!

Did you know that following, rating, and leaving a review over at Podchaser or Apple Podcasts helps others discover the show too? I would so appreciate it, friend!

Check out my speaking page, grab my flyer, and let’s talk about me speaking at your next women’s event…

I hope this episode encouraged, inspired, and challenged you to cultivate community, live and walk in the value, purpose, and worth God gave you, and take action where your passion, compassion, and conviction intersect.

If you’re looking for a speaker for your next women’s conference, retreat, luncheon, or workshop, reach out and connect with me on my speaker page at https://www.womenspeakers.com/florida/edgewater/speaker/doris-swift

Let’s have a chat about your next event!

Stay tuned for more amazing content and remember to check the show notes for all the links mentioned.

Thank you for being a part of our community. We are grateful for your continued support and encourage you to embrace the unique gifts that make you magnificently you.

I hope you’ll join me next time when I talk with another guest who is taking action where her passion, compassion, and conviction intersect …

Until then friend, have a blessed week, and I’ll talk to you soon.

With love and joy,

Doris

P.S. Don’t forget to follow us on social media for bite-sized wisdom and inspiration from Doris and our incredible guests! 📲

Doris [00:01:40]:
What is threatening to steal your joy? What is it that feels so heavy right now that you could barely stand? God has a plan and his plan is to surrender it. Surrender it to him. It might be a prodigal, it might be a relationship, a marriage, something with your job. So many things. We have so many amazing blessings, but there are so many things in our life that threaten to steal our joy. I’m Doris Swift, author of the award winning six week Bible study, Surrender the Joy. Rediscover the Jesus joy in you. And it helps women rediscover the overflowing, ever present Jesus joy within that fills, empowers and ripens the fruit that God produces in our lives.

Doris [00:02:31]:
Using personal biblical stories, I share how you can identify your joy stealers. Surrender them to God. Reawaken the joy within and share the joy with others. You can do it on your own or with a group. Check it out, friends. Surrender the joy stealers. Rediscover the Jesus joy in you. It’s available on all the online retailers.

Doris [00:02:56]:
It’s time to take your joy back. Welcome back to the show. I am so excited today to welcome back a returned guest, my friend Rebecca George. She is the founder of the podcast community Radical Radiance. She’s a speaker and an author whose greatest joy in life is discipling others to pursue their passions in a way that builds the kingdom, which is amazing and it’s also the heart of fierce calling and I love that so much. She was actually previously on and it was back in 23. That was right before her other book came out, do the Thing, Gospel Centered Goals, Gumption and Grace for the Go Getter Girl, which we love talking about. And that was episode 138.

Doris [00:03:38]:
And I will put that link in the show notes so you can check out that episode. And today we are going to talk about a lot of things, but we are also talking about Rebecca’s newest book, you’re not Too Late. Trusting God’s timing in a Hurry up world. And I just can’t think of a person that that message wouldn’t resonate with. So welcome to the show, Rebecca. It’s so great to have you back.

Rebecca George [00:04:02]:
Oh, Doris, I’m so happy to be with you. Thank you for having me again.

Doris [00:04:05]:
Yeah, I just love that we’re doing this. Well, Rebecca, you’ve been a super busy gal. You have a lot going on. You also have an amazing retreat that we can talk about too. You know what I really like in the back of your book. I love the whole thing about your book Your whole book. But you know the message that says, what does it look like to be faithful in the meanwhile? There was a quote that I really liked and it says the in between almost, but not yet. So the in between almost, but not yet, all like with little hyphens, tension is where we live most of our days.

Doris [00:04:41]:
So the in between almost, but not yet. We live there. We live there a lot. So we can definitely relate to that. And so we’re gonna jump right into this conversation. I would love if you would share a little bit about you, a little bit about your story and then also how you’re currently taking action where your passion, compassion and conviction intersection.

Rebecca George [00:05:01]:
So good. Well, I’m so excited to be with you. And a little about me. You, you did a beautiful job introducing me, but I’ll, I’ll add, and I think you will probably relate to this, Doris. There’s a lot of hats that we wear. Right. And so I’ll tell you kind of a few of mine. I’m a wife to Dustin.

Rebecca George [00:05:16]:
My husband is the lead pastor of our local church here in East Tennessee, where I live. You can’t tell by my accent. You’ll learn that pretty quickly. And so being involved in our local church is a huge part of my life for sure. And as you said, I have authored a couple of books and I’m in the throes of launching You’re Not Too Late: Trusting God’s Timing in a Hurry Up World. I also host a podcast myself called Radical Radiance, which just seeks to have conversations each, each week about what it looks like to radiate the heart of Christ and all that we do, our life, our work, our relationships, all of those things. And also, as you mentioned, host a retreat for people who do the work like you and I do of writing and speaking and podcasting.

Rebecca George [00:05:59]:
And I just absolutely love gathering like minded women in one place, just in a. In an environment that’s free of comparison and competition and a lot of the things that we can experience in our industry and just truly connect with one another and learn from one another. And so wherever I can create conversations, resources, experiences that accomplish that in some way, I feel like I’m, I am doing what you described that you, you, you described it really well of like the intersection of these three different things. And that’s when I feel like I’m in the, the thick of that. If that makes sense.

Doris [00:06:42]:
The sweet spot. Yeah, that’s perfect. And, and your ministry has just grown so wonderfully over the years. God has really Blessed it and brought so many amazing guests to your show. Like, you recently had Annie F. Downs on, and that was really cool. And so just building the Kingdom, you know, doing partnering with God and kingdom work is just so awesome. And.

Doris [00:07:08]:
And how you kind of put these messages out that we really, really can see ourselves in. You know, like, we can actually step into these things and realize, hey, you know, this message is also about me. Like, I. I’m a go getter girl. Sure, some days we might not feel like it, but really, every woman of God has a fierce calling is what I say.

Rebecca George [00:07:34]:
Yeah.

Doris [00:07:35]:
And so that’s what, you know, your messages really speak to as well. And, you know, I love how in the book, there’s just amazing case studies of real, real life women. You know, you share their stories and then you ask us how we kind of feel about that and how we can relate to that and how really each chapter is kind of exploring an opposing mindset or an opposing emotion or something. So if you could explain a little bit about how that came out. And also, and I love, thank you so much; I was so honored to write a piece for the devotional that you had as a giveaway. So that was cool.

Doris [00:08:17]:
And so, yeah, share a little bit more about that because that’s really something we can all relate to for sure.

Rebecca George [00:08:23]:
Totally. Yeah. I loved having you be a part of that, Doris, and so grateful for that. And, yeah, as I started dreaming with the Lord about this book, a little insider that most people don’t know, I thought this might be a singleness book at first, because I’d gotten married later in my 20s, which to some people might still be very young in terms of when they maybe got married or maybe they’re still waiting on their spouse. But I had been through a pretty prolonged season of singleness. I’d been a bridesmaid 12 times when I married my husband. And so I had just spent many years walking alongside other people and really meaningful people in my life, getting to experience the thing that I was longing for.

Rebecca George [00:09:07]:
So I’d really spent a lot of time navigating through that very imperfectly, if I’m honest. And I felt like I had a lot to say to single women walking through a similar journey. But as I started having conversations with important people in my life and just really considering this topic of longing, it felt so much bigger than just my desire to be married. Right. Because as I’m sure you could say about your own life, the day I married my husband was not the day longing ended for Me, it just now looks different, right? And so as I thought about that and prayed through that, there were all of these different areas that I have struggled with, whether it be doubt or like, the despair of like, will this ever happen for me? Comparison, isolation, feeling like I’m the only one that feels this way. The resentment that can build in our hearts when, when we have that prolonged season of waiting. And so I remember just scratching down all of these struggles for a very long time and just kind of wrestling through that with the Lord and then thinking like, okay, but I don’t want to stay stuck there. And I don’t want my reader to stay stuck there either.

Rebecca George [00:10:16]:
And I don’t want to miss the hand of God where I am today. And I feel like that’s happened in the past when I’ve been so focused on the thing that I want. And so I then began thinking like, okay, what if we turn from those struggles to a more gospel centered view of our waiting and of our longing? And that’s where kind of the shift started to happen in the chapter titles where I thought, okay, let’s like talk about what it would look like to go from despair to joy or doubt to hope, isolation to community, and all these different things. So I could have written about a lot more things, but we chose 10. We whittled it down to 10, and that’s what became the book. But yeah, that’s a little bit of the, the behind the scenes journey of that for sure.

Doris [00:10:57]:
Yeah. Nice. You’re right. I mean, there’s a lot that could be expanded upon in this particular arena of waiting and all of that. But I do love how it did transition to something bigger. And was, was that after you had written like a book proposal on it, was it originally for Singleness and then did it change?

Rebecca George [00:11:19]:
Well, what was interesting, you know, I wrote and released do the thing in 2023, as you mentioned a minute ago. That was when I was on the show last. And after the book had been out a few months, you know, I started dreaming about what was next. I was actually in a two book contract for do the Thing. And then what became, you’re not too late. And so naturally the conversation started of, you know, what’s next. Right. And I remember going back to my original book proposal and you know, as any author does who wants to show that they have kind of a vision for their career, I’d had some subsequent ideas that I, you know, might be something one day.

Rebecca George [00:11:55]:
And one of them was actually titled Always a Bridesmaid.

Doris [00:11:59]:
Ah.

Rebecca George [00:11:59]:
And. And I had a little description for it, and I, like, I don’t know, it might be a book I write one day. I don’t know. I have a lot more that probably feel more important to me now and significant to me now, but that was the one that, like, stirred my heart the most. And then I just. Honestly, before I took it to my agent, before I took it to my publisher, I just sat with a lot of people in my life and just said, like, what of my story do you think is kind of a thread here that I could talk about? And that was really where the longing conversation came in. And. And even the titling of this book was.

Rebecca George [00:12:35]:
Was a whole journey in and of itself. You’re Not Too Late was not the original title. And as I walked with this group that I’m in, a mastermind group and told them a little bit about the message, and one of them actually came back and said, I feel like what you’re trying to say is you’re not too late. And that feels like the raw nerve ending that’s kind of underneath what you’re trying to communicate here. And so I took it to my publisher, and they were so excited about it. And so I actually didn’t write a full proposal for this book, which is, I feel, like, really rare, and I’m really grateful I didn’t have to, but it. It actually. And I think this is interesting, like, flew out of me faster than anything I’ve ever written.

Doris [00:13:16]:
Wow.

Rebecca George [00:13:17]:
It was one of the harder books. I mean, of the two, do the Thing was a really fun message to write and a really fun message to talk about. And this was a lot more vulnerable of a message. But I think because it’s such a universal challenge for myself and every woman I know it, there were just many moments where I’d sit down to write and come up for air an hour later, and I’d have half a chapter, you know, because it just. It was so in me. So, yeah, it was a really fun book to. To work on.

Doris [00:13:46]:
Yeah, that’s awesome. And, you know, and I love how when you talk it out with people and that can go for anything, you know, you’re going through a struggle, something going on in your life, and all we need is in the word of God, you know, everything we need is in the word of God, and he gives us community, you know, and that’s a big part of what you talk about, too. I mean, in the book, you even talk about isolation versus community. And. Yeah, you know, that is. It’s so cool how These things come out in community that God gives each of us different gifts and talents and you know, he gives us all wisdom when we ask. And so I, I love how that kind of came about. It was like woo, kind of like a light bulb moment that happened.

Rebecca George [00:14:32]:
Totally.

Doris [00:14:32]:
So, and, and yeah, in the waiting, it’s just like what we said earlier. What does it look like to be faithful in the meanwhile? See, so what have you found to be a common thread, like for women when they’re waiting? Because it can be for a spouse, because it, and it could be any season in life that a woman is waiting. But what are some of the other things that you kind of discovered and learned as you went through your research for the book, talking to women who participated in the book? Does anything like stand out?

Rebecca George [00:15:07]:
Yeah, totally. I think it’s important to kind of zoom out a little bit, right? Because if we are so laser focused on like the earthly thing that we want, which is often a good thing, and I think that’s important to say a desire to be married, a desire to have children, a desire to grow in our careers, to get involved in a ministry, to start a business, to do things with excellence to the glory of God. All of those things are God given desires, but we view them imperfectly because we live in the midst of brokenness and we’re human and all of those things. So if we zoom out a little bit and go, okay, the reality that I’m experiencing now in a broken world is not as God created it to be in the garden. So if we zoom all the way back to the garden, perfect fellowship and communion with God as He designed it to be, that was severed because of sin. Then Jesus came, lived a perfect sinless life, died on the cross, made a way to reconcile our relationship with God. And so we live in this in between of navigating brokenness as we follow Christ and awaiting his return when he. When all things are set back as they should be and restored and redeemed and all of those things.

Rebecca George [00:16:18]:
And we experience glimpses of that here on earth, but we won’t experience it in its fullness until heaven. And so we kind of sit in the middle of that. And I say it’s kind of like we’re sitting between two Edens, right? It’s not as it was or will be. And so obviously our hearts desire things, our hearts long for things. And so many times our desire for that thing is actually just an imperfect reflection ultimately of our desire for that communion with God. That’s that unbroken fellowship. And so I think it’s what we do with those desires and how we view them rightly. I think so many times those things can become an idol.

Rebecca George [00:17:02]:
And I have a whole chapter about that in the book. And I remember turning that one into my editor and I was like, this is a pretty spicy one and I’m not apologizing for it. Like, I can’t write a book about longing and not talk about idolatry. Right. And so many times that good God given desire, we can elevate that thing to a place of prominence that’s meant for God. And then when that is the thing that’s sitting on the throne of our hearts, it’s really easy for us to just miss the hand of God in our current season of life. And I know that’s been true in my own life so many times. And so I think that’s a little bit of what happens in us for sure.

Rebecca George [00:17:41]:
And I think most commonly what we don’t always love to talk about, one being idolatry, the other one that’s kind of a hot button topic for me is resentment. I think so many times when we either experience that prolonged season of waiting or we’re watching everybody else get to experience the thing we desire, it’s just that kind of death by a thousand cuts type of thing in our hearts where that bitterness and resentment can really grow if we are unwilling to, to confront and really take that thing to the Lord of like, I just want to be really honest. Like, I desire to have kids and all my friends are having babies and I’m going to baby shower after baby shower, and yet I still have this longing in my heart. Lord, I just, you know my heart better than I do. And would you just grant me the joy to show up for my friend really well. But then also would you sit with me in the middle of that waiting? Like, if we’re unwilling to have those kinds of conversations, what happens in us is that that continued growth of that bitterness or resentment. And that I think is also really unhelpful. So, yeah, those are some of, I think, the most common ones.

Rebecca George [00:18:51]:
I would be curious to hear what you think. But as I researched and prayed through it, I think that’s oftentimes what happens.

Doris [00:18:57]:
Yeah, well, that was really beautifully said and just so true, you know, and, and I feel like sometimes some of those things Jesus said, he gave us his joy, that our joy would be full, but sometimes these things that get in our way kind of blocks our joy and we kind of can’t see it. It’s like an eclipse that occurs when the sun is, is covered over and it, it’s like, where’s the light? You know. And so I love the things that you touched on because definitely we can relate to those things. And how you talked about earlier comparison and people can say, you know, how many people are going to write about or talk about comparison? It’s like, well, we can’t talk about it enough because we keep struggling with it. So we need to be reminded not to do that. The comparison trap can really happen when, like you said, you, it’s kind of a balance between. You want to be joyful for others, but yet you don’t want to have that resentment and you don’t want to feel like bad because then it makes you feel guilty that you’re feeling bad, you know, about someone else who’s having something joyful happening in their life. And what you said earlier was so perfect because we are yearning for a relationship with God.

Doris [00:20:12]:
He’s the only one that fills that void in our life.

Rebecca George [00:20:15]:
Amen.

Doris [00:20:16]:
And so the struggle between the Eden, that was what we were meant to be like. The Blythe Daniel Agency, we love her agency. It’s our agency. And her brother wrote that book made for Eden. And it’s just, it’s so very true. So, so I love that so much. And another thing too, I wanted to mention that I really also think is powerful and important is you talk about in the book the prosperity gospel. There are so many people right now, even influential people who say they’re Christian and all of that, but have really drifted away from historical Christianity.

Doris [00:20:56]:
They aren’t like reading the Bible much anymore. As far as when they speak, it’s kind of. I don’t know if it moves more toward self help or what I guess Melissa Dougherty talks about like new thought, law of attraction and all of that. So if you could kind of talk a little bit about that and how that came about in your book and why it was so important for you to mention that.

Rebecca George [00:21:18]:
For sure. Totally. Also, you just got some major brownie points with me that you were willing to talk about this one because it was another one that I just felt so strongly that we had to talk about and confront in the book because so often. And you and I both love books. We love our industry, we love the work we get to do. And there are a lot of books filling our shelves today that are kind of this. And this is a Melissa Doherty ism as well. She, she says it’s a lot of this like self help with Jesus as our mascot kind of Thing like he biblical truth is the afterthought, not at the forefront of the message. Right.

Rebecca George [00:21:52]:
And so as I thought about my desires and how I view them rightly, how I view them in light of God’s word, I think so many times the messaging can look like this. Like if you just work a little harder, if you pray a little more, if you wait a little longer, if you hustle yourself a little bit, get up earlier, pull yourself up by your bootstraps, all of those things, it’ll happen for you. Right. And the problem with that equation is that makes it all about us.

Doris [00:22:22]:
Right?

Rebecca George [00:22:22]:
Right. Meaning that it happens in our own strength. We can will it to be in our own strength. And as a follower of Christ and as we look to Scripture, you and I both know that not to be true. And so it felt really significant to point that out because I don’t even think we always know when we’re doing it.

Doris [00:22:41]:
Right.

Rebecca George [00:22:41]:
Right. Especially when it comes to just those, those really significant longings in our hearts. Right. I can remember when I was single and, you know, I’m walking with a lot of other single women in my life. It would be this, like, well, maybe if I lost the weight or maybe if I just got out more, maybe if I just would put myself out there. Like, it was all so inward focused, rather than taking a step back and going like, man, God does not need my help.

Doris [00:23:13]:
Right?

Rebecca George [00:23:14]:
God does not need my help to orchestrate his plan. I get to praise God. I get to be a part of that and, and get to watch him hold the pen to my life and write the story. And now that I’m on the other side of getting married and I talk a lot about our story in the book, it was a story that I could have never written, you know, and, and that’s what I want to just point back and look back and say to all of our friends listening and even to myself as I look to the future with more longing in my heart is like, man, hand the pin over. You know, like, God will write such a better story than we ever could have.

Doris [00:23:52]:
Amen. Amen to that. Yeah. And you’re right, too. I think you kind of cover this in your book as well. You know, even when we long for something for so long and then it finally comes. Of course, when it does come and it has been something we’ve longed for for a long time, it just makes it so much sweeter in some ways. But then it, you know, but then we still have longings for other things.

Doris [00:24:16]:
And so it, you Know it. Oh, if only I could do this. Oh, if only this happened over. You know, we kind of like can do that, you know, the what ifs, if only and all that stuff. But yeah, it’s true. Like because of that humanness that we have, but yet that longing that we kind of misdirect in the wrong places. So yeah, that’s true. And, and yeah, I love really talking about truth because we don’t have to really be as concerned with the messages that are blatantly not biblical at all.

Doris [00:24:50]:
Like, you know, we can, you know, sense that we can smell that a mile away. Like, but there’s so many subtle things that slip in that all of a sudden something changes, the tide turns or whatever and we don’t, like, like you said earlier, you know, sometimes we don’t even realize when things are happening in our life. So, you know, can you talk a little bit about how that can come into play?

Rebecca George [00:25:16]:
Yeah, totally. Something that I think is really important about that, Doris, is so many times we’ve created this culture with technology that does not warrant us or have the desire for us to wait, right? Like if we want to order something on Amazon, it’s on our doorstep oftentimes by the end of the evening if we, you know, are strapped for time, but we want to make a home cooked meal, we don’t go to the grocery store, we just doordash everything to our house. If we have an early flight, we don’t inconvenience a friend, we just call an Uber and we’re there in 15 minutes, right? So we’ve created a world that in the insignificant parts of our lives does not cause us to have to wait or long for anything at all, really. Right. And so if I’m unwilling to do that about groceries and my travel plans, it is no surprise to me that my heart has no resiliency to do it in the things that really matter. And so I’m even finding myself challenging that a lot, right? Like it’s actually good for me to stand in line at the grocery store and there’d be two people in front of me and me actually not grab my phone to entertain myself for five minutes, right? You know, like have a conversation with the person in front of me in line.

Doris [00:26:40]:
Yeah.

Rebecca George [00:26:40]:
Right. Where I get stuck in traffic and like the anxiety kind of starts to swell in my heart and then I go, you know what? I’m not going to get there any faster back then like this, you know, and just kind of confronting those things because I think similar to how when we look at around other people’s lives and compare ourselves. It’s that death by a thousand cuts type of thing that gets us to the resentment. I think the journey out of that is in the same way making those small daily choices towards practicing resiliency and practicing waiting. Because our hearts will then have more patience towards it, more resiliency for it. When we’re talking about, you know, our kids struggling with infertility or our desire to be married, or we’re waiting for the promotion or whatever, our hearts will have just a greater sense of resiliency if we’re doing it in our everyday lives, you know.

Doris [00:27:38]:
Yeah. Wow, that is golden right there. I think that’s the title of your next book, the Holy Resiliency or something like that. The Holy Practice of Resiliency. I mean, even with Amazon prime, like two day delivery, we go, well, can we get it in a day? Because you can also get it in a day or same day. And now they have it even where you could get it in the middle of like the wee hours of the morning or like 4pm and 3am or something ridiculous. Like I was like, what did that start? That is kind of crazy. But yeah, so good because we do not work that muscle of resiliency.

Doris [00:28:13]:
Like, you know, it’s kind of like you wouldn’t expect to just go to the gym one day and then be able to run a 5k. Like you have to.

Rebecca George [00:28:21]:
Yeah.

Doris [00:28:21]:
You know, like work it out, work on it and do it in God’s time. Like, I love that your book talks about God’s timing because time and time again with that word, time, time and time again, we can see and look back and see like, wow, I had a longing for this for that long. But if I would have gotten that answer to prayer or whatever back when I wanted it, it wouldn’t have been as good as sweet. It wouldn’t have been exceedingly, abundantly above.

Rebecca George [00:28:52]:
Yeah.

Doris [00:28:53]:
What we ask or think like that God does in our life. So I love that you talk about writing things out in your book. You have us like write things out. What are some of your favorite parts of the book? Or even was there any parts of the book that came in later that you kind of added because it was needed?

Rebecca George [00:29:13]:
Yeah, I think. Oh man, there’s so much there. The Bench story is my favorite story that I got to write in the whole book. And so I’ll give our friends listening kind of the, the Spark Notes version.

Doris [00:29:24]:
Okay.

Rebecca George [00:29:25]:
As, as I said, you know, I experienced a pretty prolonged season of singleness before I reconnected with my husband. And we actually were in each other’s lives many years before we dated, which I think is so interesting. So many times, you know, if our friends listening are single, like, you may know your spouse, right? Like, who knows? Who knows if you already even, even know your spouse? But separately, God both said, sent us to the same trail in the Smokies, years apart. I was hiking with a friend. He was fishing by himself, and we actually stopped at the same bench on the same trail with the same waterfall in the background and prayed for one another years apart. And both took a picture of that day and discovered that it was the same place where. Where God had sent us to both pray for who we didn’t know at the time was. Was one another.

Rebecca George [00:30:16]:
And that was actually where Dustin proposed to me. And I remember talking with a friend about this book. So this wasn’t actually a late ad. It was probably the first thing I knew I was going to put in the book. I was telling her a little bit more about our story. And she’s a fellow author, Elizabeth Thompson, if you know her. And I, I told her kind of the thread of where I felt like the book was heading. And she said, rebecca, you have to bookend this book with the bench story, right? Like, tell, you know, your version of it at the beginning and, like, tie it in a bow with his at the end.

Rebecca George [00:30:49]:
And I do think it’s just such a powerful remind of how God is working in our lives and writing a story that we don’t always know the fullness of. And I think that’s really important to remember. So that’s been an encouragement for sure to a lot of readers and, and to me, it’s probably the most significant story I’ve been able to write in a book so far in my life. But I think the practical thing I’ll. I’ll leave our listeners with. It’s been helpful to me, is straight out of Scripture, but I talk about it at the end of every chapter. I call it the Search Me God prayer. And it’s straight from Psalm 139, verses 23 and 24, where the Psalmist says, search my heart, O God, try me and know my anxious thoughts.

Rebecca George [00:31:26]:
And if there be a grievous way in me, lead me in the way everlasting. And that has become a. A little bit of a prompt for me as I’m praying through my own seasons of longing, of just God. Would you examine my heart? Would you show me where this is causing me anxiety? Where the way I’m thinking about this is, is contradictory to your word and to your perspective. And would you point me back towards that? And I think that’s one of the most helpful things we can do as we be as we’re really honest before the Lord about what we’re struggling with. So more than anything practical I could give you that is a scripturally based just prompt that has been so helpful for me.

Doris [00:32:05]:
Yeah. So beautiful. We were just talking about that in our staff meeting at the church. You know how sometimes we can use those. I think, you know, we were talking about prayer. You know, like sometimes you just need help, like what to say and how to pray. And sometimes you’re in a place where you can’t even feel like you. You can even pray.

Doris [00:32:26]:
And then these prompts are so helpful, I think. Yeah. Rachel Wojo says they’re like borrowed prayers. So. And I love that you do the scriptures and praying the scripture and affirming, you know, the word of God, you know, and so that is so precious. And the bench story just gives me goosebumps or God bumps or whatever. That’s like.

Rebecca George [00:32:48]:
I know, right?

Doris [00:32:49]:
It’s so sweet, you know, it’s just so precious. And. And if someone is listening right now and that’s a longing that they have, maybe longing for a spouse. Pray for the. Pray for who your spouse is going to be that God will send. Because when we don’t have that resilience, we can make bad choices.

Rebecca George [00:33:07]:
Yeah.

Doris [00:33:08]:
And feel like because your book is. You’re not too late, which is a great message someone that’s listening right now really needs to hear because we tend to make decisions based on our emotions. And you know, it’s like we think we are too late and so we just have to settle. And that’s not what the message is in this book or in the word of God. So. So I encourage you all to pick up this book. It’s so amazing. And this has been a really fantastic conversation and you’ve just shared so many wonderful nuggets of truth and encouragement.

Doris [00:33:49]:
And I would love Rebecca if you would share. Where can the listener connect with you? Find radical radiance and your books and all the things. Rebecca George.

Rebecca George [00:33:59]:
Totally. I’m the most active over on Instagram. My handle is at Rebecca George, author. I’m a CCA Rebecca, so that should be pretty easy to find. And you can grab the book you’re not too late. Trusting God’s timing in a hurry up world. Wherever you like to buy books. Amazon, Barnes and Noble Christian book, all the places.

Rebecca George [00:34:16]:
And yeah, I would love to connect with you. Radical Radiance is the name of my podcast and we just actually walked through. I love it. Doris has the book right behind her.

Doris [00:34:24]:
So good.

Rebecca George [00:34:25]:
We just walked through the book chapter by chapter on the podcast for the last 10 weeks. So if there’s a topic that we talked about in this conversation that felt really tender to your heart or you want to dig into more, There’s a whole 30 to 40 minute conversation about it over on my show, so make sure to check that out.

Doris [00:34:42]:
So cool. And you can get videos that go.

Rebecca George [00:34:44]:
With the book and they are free to the reader. There’s a QR code in the introduction of the book and there’s an 11 session video series where I kind of walk alongside you throughout the book. So if you’re reading it alone and you just want a little extra jolt of encouragement, great. If you’re leading it in a small group and you just want a little 5 to 10 minute kickoff for me at each one of your sessions, I would love for you to use that for sure.

Doris [00:35:07]:
You are so precious and I just. And that is so great because the videos will help your readers really get to know you more on a little bit more personal level. I mean, as personal as we can get when you’re not in the same room. But you never know what God’s going to do. He might have you meet somebody in a bench or whatever. So we never know. God puts divine appointments in our path every single day. So yeah.

Doris [00:35:30]:
So wow, this has been so great. And yeah, I hope to have you on again.

Rebecca George [00:35:35]:
Yes.

Doris [00:35:35]:
Getting to be a thing and I’m loving it. So friends, thank you so much for listening today and I will put all the links in the show notes that Rebecca mentioned and also the link to our previous episode so you can listen to that. And friend, remember that you do have a fierce calling. Every woman of God has a fierce calling. And just be encouraged by that. Be encouraged by the way that God calls us to work with him in kingdom work. And that no matter where you’ve been, what you’ve done, or what’s been done to you, that God can use you. So I hope you’ll join me next time when I talk with another woman who’s taking action.

Doris [00:36:13]:
We’re passion, compassion and conviction intersect. Until then, friends, have a blessed week and I’ll talk to you soon.

Welcome back to Fierce Calling! In today’s episode, host Doris Swift sits down with Jessica Ronne—author, speaker, caregiver advocate, and founder of the Lucas Project—for an inspiring conversation about faith, resilience, and answering God’s call in the midst of life’s biggest challenges. Jessica opens up about her lifelong journey as a caregiver, from growing up as the eldest of twelve siblings to raising a blended family of eight children, including her son Lucas who has profound disabilities.

Jessica shares how her experiences of navigating personal loss, blending families, and caring for a child with special needs have shaped her calling to support caregivers and create real solutions through initiatives like the Lucas Project and her work as an author and documentary producer. Together, they discuss the importance of giving yourself permission to feel all the complex emotions that come with caregiving, the holy and transformative nature of serving others, and practical ways to support families facing these unique challenges.

Whether you’re a caregiver yourself, know someone who is, or simply want to understand what it means to walk in faith and fierce compassion, this episode is packed with encouragement, wisdom, and actionable insights. Get ready to rediscover joy, find community, and learn how God meets us—and uses us—in every season of life.

06:38 Lifelong Caregiver Journey

08:38 “Author’s Journey and Family Life”

10:39 “Blending Families: Grace and Grit”

16:30 Permission to Feel in Caregiving

20:18 “Founding the Lucas Project”

22:31 Divine Design and Support Systems

26:49 Caregiving: Finding Purpose and Support

28:30 Seek Professional Help, Not Spouse

33:05 Simplifying Help for Caregivers

You can connect with Jessica at thelucasproject.org and jessronne.com

Facebook: @jessronneofficial

Instagram: @jessplusthemess

Jessica Ronne is a multi-published author, speaker, host of the Coffee with Caregivers Podcast, producer of UNSEEN and UNCERTAIN,  and caregiver advocate. She offers encouragement and practical tips to her listeners. She is also the founder/executive director of The Lucas Project, a nonprofit providing resources, and respite for special needs caregivers. She and her husband, Ryan, live in Michigan with their eight children, including their son Lucas, who has profound disabilities.

Check out Surrender the Joy Stealers: Rediscover the Jesus Joy in You 6-week Bible study rooted in John 15. You can find more info at https://dorisswift.com/book/

Find my free resources including Fear Fighting Bible Verses, Simple Tips for Sharing Your Faith, Surrender the Joy Stealers, Step Out of Your Doubt and Into Your Calling ebook, and more on my dorisswift.com homepage!

Did you know that following, rating, and leaving a review over at Podchaser or Apple Podcasts helps others discover the show too? I would so appreciate it, friend!

Check out my speaking page, grab my flyer, and let’s talk about me speaking at your next women’s event…

I hope this episode encouraged, inspired, and challenged you to cultivate community, live and walk in the value, purpose, and worth God gave you, and take action where your passion, compassion, and conviction intersect.

If you’re looking for a speaker for your next women’s conference, retreat, luncheon, or workshop, reach out and connect with me on my speaker page at https://www.womenspeakers.com/florida/edgewater/speaker/doris-swift

Let’s have a chat about your next event!

Stay tuned for more amazing content and remember to check the show notes for all the links mentioned.

Thank you for being a part of our community. We are grateful for your continued support and encourage you to embrace the unique gifts that make you magnificently you.

I hope you’ll join me next time when I talk with another guest who is taking action where her passion, compassion, and conviction intersect …

Until then friend, have a blessed week, and I’ll talk to you soon.

With love and joy,

Doris

P.S. Don’t forget to follow us on social media for bite-sized wisdom and inspiration from Doris and our incredible guests! 📲

Doris Swift [00:01:40]:
What is threatening to steal your joy? What is it that feels so heavy right now that you could barely stand? God has a plan. And his plan is to surrender it. Surrender it to him. It might be a prodigal. It might be a relationship, a marriage, something with your job. So many things. We have so many amazing blessings, but there are so many things in our life that threaten to steal our joy. I’m Doris Swift, author of the award winning six week Bible study, Surrender the Joy.

Doris Swift [00:02:18]:
Rediscover the Jesus joy in you. And it helps women rediscover the overflowing, ever present Jesus joy within that fills, empowers and ripens the fruit that God produces in our lives. Using personal biblical stories, I share how you can identify your joist dealers. Surrender them to God, Reawaken the joy within and share the joy with others. You can do it on your own or with a group. Check it out, friends. Surrender the joy stealers. Rediscover the Jesus joy in you. It’s available on all the online retailers. It’s time to take your joy back.

Doris Swift [00:02:53]:
Welcome back to the show today. I am excited to welcome my friend today, Jessica Ronnie. She is an author, a speaker, a podcast, host of the podcast Coffee with Caregivers, associate producer of the unseen documentary, which I would love to hear more about and I know you would too. And she’s a caregiver advocate. She’s the founder and executive director of the Lucas Project, which is a nonprofit dedicated to serving parent caregivers with recognition, respite and resources, which is so, so, so needed. And she is a wife and a mama in a exciting blended family with eight kids.

Doris Swift [00:03:41]:
And we just want to hear more about how God has been working in your life. Welcome to the show.

Jessica Ronne [00:03:48]:
Yeah, thanks for having me. I’m excited to be here.

Doris Swift [00:03:50]:
Yeah, this has been great. And I know there’s so many things that we could go and share about your story that you could encourage the listener with. So I will just ask where you are taking where your passion, compassion and conviction intersect.

Jessica Ronne [00:04:08]:
Jess, Goodness, that’s a big question.

Doris Swift [00:04:12]:
You can break it down.

Jessica Ronne [00:04:13]:
Where am I taking action? I’m taking action in all kinds of different spheres these days. Still very much so in the caregiver advocacy space. I am, like you mentioned, the founder of the Lucas Project, and we are still coming up with programs and different areas to support parent caregivers in that regard. Still writing books, still speaking a lot nationally, and hosting the podcast Coffee with Caregivers and really just kind of trying to simplify my life. Too, since we did end up creating a group home for our son Lucas, and he moved into that group home about a year ago. And I find I have a lot more space on my hands now, a lot more time, because I’m not his primary caregiver anymore. There’s absolutely still a lot of micromanaging that has to be accomplished from afar. But he now has new primary caregivers and I find myself leaning more into this space of helping families create solutions for their loved ones because it is a national crisis.

Jessica Ronne [00:05:17]:
And we are creating a new documentary called Uncertain, which will explore that housing crisis for disabled adults and their families. And I’ve started a coaching service so that I can partner with families to help them create solutions as well.

Doris Swift [00:05:32]:
Wow, that is fantastic and so beautiful and, and very encouraging because that is a challenge for families. I know I have had several guests on the show who have, who, who are or were caregivers. And there are a lot of moms that come on that have special needs children and some of the things that they have concerns about is what happens when I’m no longer here, you know, how, how is this going to play out, you know, because oftentimes other family may not be able to take on that caregiver role. So I love that you have these resources and how God has led you to create this group home and then now freed up time to help others in this journey that they’re on. And you have quite an extensive background. I know, really, God has been preparing you as a caregiver for like I’ve heard you talk about how even growing up you can look back and see that. Can you share a little bit about that?

Jessica Ronne [00:06:38]:
Yeah, it’s interesting, you know, as I’ve had some time to process since I haven’t been Lucas’s full time caregiver anymore, I realized really I’ve been in a caregiving role for about 46 years of life. At 2 years old, my mom had twins and there are, you know, Pictures of little 2 year old Jessica with her arms around her twin brothers helping out, you know, so my mom could probably run to the bathroom or take a shower or whatever. And then I ultimately became the oldest of 12 children. So I’ve been sort of just in this caregiver role, helping with siblings forever. And then going off to college. I became a nanny and when I married my first husband, Jason, we added to our or we decided to start a family very quickly, had Caleb. And then in 2004 we were excited to find out we were pregnant again with our Second child, Lucas, who ended up experiencing a stroke in utero. And we were told there was very little hope.

Jessica Ronne [00:07:34]:
But he did survive and spent two weeks in the nicu, underwent brain surgery at one day old, and is now turning, what is he turning, 21 this August. And he, he has profound disabilities. He requires help in every aspect of life. He’s non verbal, he’s incontinent, he needs help feeding, bathing, moving from one place to another. And so just looking at the scope of my life and then a few years after Lucas was born, Jason, my first husband, was diagnosed with brain cancer. He went on to fight cancer for three years and ultimately received his healing in heaven in 2010. And that’s when I found myself as a 33 year old widow with four young children. And the story doesn’t even really stop there.

Jessica Ronne [00:08:24]:
I went on to marry a widower who had three children, and then we had a child together. And now I’m a mom to eight children. So my whole life has sort of encompassed this idea of caring for other individuals.

Doris Swift [00:08:38]:
Yeah, it is definitely a fierce calling, you know, that you have been walking in and how God has equipped and prepared you and actually continues to equip you as you go. Because as we know, you know, if we were to say we’re, we’re fully equipped for whatever God is calling us to, it’s like, no, not yet, you know, but he can do that as we go along. And, and I, I have your, your memoir, actually, which we’re talking about, the caregiving book that came out more recently. But Sunlight Burning at Midnight is, is an excellent book and it just really touches the heartstrings and so deeply as you are, you know, you, you have a beautiful way of expressing your story and just sharing in your artistry and creativity of writing because you’re also called to be an author. You have, you have a lot going on. But, but yeah, so what, what is the spread of ages with the kids? You know, all eight kids. We know Lucas, he’s gonna be 21, right?

Jessica Ronne [00:09:51]:
Yeah, it’s 22 down to nine. So it’s. And at one point in the year, we have like three sets of twins, is what we say, because one of Ryan’s and one of mine are the same age. So. Yeah, it’s never a dull moment.

Doris Swift [00:10:08]:
Yeah. Also, I’m sure a lot of our listeners today have a blended family. And so it is definitely a unique way that not only the parents can navigate all of that, but the children also, especially when they’re siblings on both sides. And how, how did that look when your family first came together? I know you also, and you can talk a little bit about the book where you share that part of your story as well.

Jessica Ronne [00:10:39]:
I wrote about that and blended with grit and grace. You know, our kids gelled beautifully. They were all young, so we had seven under seven and. And they were just so excited to have all of these built in playmates. And it wasn’t really all that shocking to my system. Having been the oldest of 12, I think my new husband, Ryan struggled more with the sheer number of children that we were now entrusted to care for. And I would say our difficulties really came more in our relationship with one another and navigating what is this going to look like? And really coming to an understanding that it was a marriage between the two of us, not the four of us. And meaning like our late spouses, because initially they were really sort of brought into everything and we had to navigate what that was going to look like and put some clear boundaries in place and even some clear boundaries and what we were willing to share with one another.

Jessica Ronne [00:11:36]:
Because when we met, we really grieved together. We both lost our spouses to brain cancer and kind of used each other as therapists. And I would not suggest doing that. I would suggest finding a therapist for yourself and working through a lot of those emotions with somebody else, not necessarily somebody that you’re newly married to because it’s a really tricky thing to navigate grieving the loss of somebody you loved and were married to while falling in love with another individual. And so we learned a lot. We just celebrated our 14 year anniversary and you know, things aren’t nearly as sensitive or triggering as they once were. But yeah, those early years there was just a lot of issues to navigate that nobody tells you about. Like, you just have no idea how, how triggering it can be to even have your husband bring all these new decorations into your home that you’re like, I don’t really like these decorations.

Jessica Ronne [00:12:41]:
Why are they in my home? So nobody like tells you that these things are going to come up and they’re going to trigger a lot of insecurities and a lot of questions and. But we figured it out and then we wrote a book about.

Doris Swift [00:12:55]:
Yeah, I. That is, that is really great. And I love how you. Well, first of all, I love how when you were saying you had Seven under seven, that just sounds like it could be like the title of a whole nother book probably.

Jessica Ronne [00:13:07]:
Right?

Doris Swift [00:13:08]:
Seven under seven. Right. But thank you also for sharing and being vulnerable about sharing that part of Your story. Because I know in that book you get into, like, the relationship, what does intimacy look like, and how you were talking about, you know, coming out of the other relationships, and then you have the grief and all the history of your, you know, former, like, what you had before, you know, your first marriages and everything, and then just trying to get through, but. But also mentioning, you know, things like you don’t think of too, you know, while. How do we blend our stuff, you know, like. And not that stuff is the main thing, because Jesus is. But, like, thinking about how do you do that, you know, that is really hard.

Doris Swift [00:14:02]:
And I know some people also might run into that situation when they find themselves caregivers for an aging parent who now has to move out of their home. And how. Because we’re kind of navigating that road right now and trying to figure it out. Because my mom, you know, we lost my dad a few years ago to lung cancer, and my mom is living with my sister, but she had her own home with all her own stuff. And so trying to figure all of that out, you know, is really challenging. But I just love that you write about these things so that other people can be encouraged. But not only that, but have some kind of a. Maybe a.

Doris Swift [00:14:48]:
Something where they can establish their own plan, you know, or action or practical things, you know, not just like, this is my story, but you share, like, practical things for people, and that’s what they really need. They. They want to hear stories, but they also want to see, well, how does this relate to my story and how can I implement these kind of action steps? So I would love if you would share a little bit more about the caregiver book that you wrote and what you would want the reader to take away from that book.

Jessica Ronne [00:15:20]:
Yeah, I appreciate you saying that. I think in everything that I write, I try to give the reader permission to say, this is what I’m feeling. And I. And that was my goal in Blended with grit and grace. Loving with grit and grace. Sunlight burning at midnight and now this Caregiving with grit and grace. We all have these emotions. We all have these feelings.

Jessica Ronne [00:15:41]:
And to be able to say, I am feeling this way, there’s something so freeing about that that even opens you up to then be able to explore the tools and the strategies that you can implement. But if you’re not willing to even admit that you are having these feelings, you can’t move into that place of bettering the situation or grieving the situation or whatever that’s going to look like. So I think that Was. And that’s not even intentional. I’m just not a very private person. I often joke, like, I don’t even have blinds on my windows. I’m just like, this is my life. I don’t really understand the point of being so private about things, because I feel like we all go through these things, and the more we would talk about these things, I think it would be healing for other people.

Jessica Ronne [00:16:30]:
And so with the caregiving, with grit and grace, it wasn’t even necessarily intentional that I was giving permission to caregivers to be feel these things, But I kept hearing this feedback from caregivers as they read the book. Thank you for giving me permission to feel anger or to feel this grief or to feel resentment, because I don’t want to do this, you know, for the rest of my life. And so beginning at that place of permission and then I think, leading into a place of trying to bring hope and encouragement in a really challenging scenario, because caregiving is tough. I mean, we are going through these mundane, monotonous tasks that don’t really seem to mean a whole lot in the grand scheme of what is important in life. And that was a hard lesson for me to learn, too, that caregiving is holy work. And it is the holiest work I can do. This side of eternity is caring for someone who cannot care for themselves. And so much so that that’s exactly what Jesus came.

Jessica Ronne [00:17:31]:
Came to earth to do for us, is care for us physically, mentally, emotionally, spiritually. And so in our actions of caregiving, we are becoming more Christlike, and that is ushering in the kingdom of heaven here on earth. And so once I was able to shift that perspective, it was a game changer for how I viewed my caregiving duties. And so I hope that people who reading, who read this, who are either caregivers now or know a caregiver or will be in a giving role at some point, can also learn to shift their perspective, because that is ground zero, I believe. And being able to embrace the calling that the Lord puts on your life for a season of time.

Doris Swift [00:18:17]:
Yeah. Wow. That is a beautiful way that you explain that and how a shift in perspective can really change the trajectory of the whole journey. And how you were talking about caregiving as being holy work. And I think really, for sure that is going to encourage someone listening right now. Because when you’re in the thick of it, sometimes you. You really can’t or don’t have the bandwidth to step back and look at the whole big picture of how. How is God, you know, leading me in this or how can I glorify him and also partner with him in kingdom work as I care for this person or people who have been fearfully and wonderfully made in his image.

Doris Swift [00:19:05]:
And it is a high calling and a holy work. So thank you for sharing about that. And if you could also share a little bit more about the Lucas Project, like, how did that come about? I know it can’t most things come about because there’s a need for these things and to encourage someone because we haven’t had to do this in our family. But I can imagine that trying to seek out additional help when you know that actually it’s the best for everyone. And then, you know, with the group home and that kind of thing. Could you elaborate a little bit about that?

Jessica Ronne [00:19:44]:
Yeah. Just to clarify, the Lucas Project and the group home are two separate entities. The Lucas Project is a nonprofit, and that came about when we were living in rural Tennessee. My current husband Ryan began having numerous panic attacks that resembled heart attacks. And we were rushing him down to Vanderbilt repeatedly because we were so isolated. Lucas was going through puberty. And what that looked like with Lucas was constant screaming, aggression, hurting his siblings, behavioral challenges. And we had nobody who would step in and help us.

Jessica Ronne [00:20:18]:
We did not have a community. And my husband Ryan was having panic attacks all the time. And I thought, if we’re this desperate for a break, other families also must be desperate to have a break from their caregiving duties. And so I just googled how to start a non profit, printed off the paperwork, filled it out, sent it in. That’s just kind of how I operate. I’m very much a problem solver, obviously, if there’s a problem, how are we going to solve it? And a couple weeks later it was. I was the founder of the Lucas Project, so we partnered with a local school that offered us their facility. And we were able to offer families consistent respite opportunities, including our family.

Jessica Ronne [00:20:59]:
And I was the first to say, I’m not going to be here directing this. I’m going to hire a director, and here is my child. We need a break as badly as anyone else. And that has now since blossomed into numerous programs. We are starting an M and M club for individuals ages 13 to 50. This July. We partner with local hospitals and give care packages to parents in NICU with their children. We’ve created the unseen documentary, working on the second documentary, the podcast.

Jessica Ronne [00:21:32]:
We have a support group on Facebook called Caregivers cove with over 2200 caregivers. That’s a completely free resource and then we do have a database of resources on our website as well for caregivers. So. And then the group home too came again. I mean, the thread has always been Lucas and what our family needs. And we needed a future solution for Lucas as he aged. And so we purchased a home and created a group home where he now lives with three other disabled young adults as well. And he’s thriving.

Jessica Ronne [00:22:06]:
You know, I look back now 15 months later and think what 20 year old would want. His mother, you know, feeding him, bathing him. Like he wanted his independence as much as we wanted our independence. And he is just doing remarkably well. It’s about 10 minutes away from our house, so we see him often. And it was just a very, very wonderful thing for our family.

Doris Swift [00:22:31]:
Wow. Praise God. You know, praise the Lord and, and just kind of how special it is how God wires us all differently. Like he wired you to get things done and to start things, but then also with the wisdom to know just because I started doesn’t mean I have to be the director, you know, doesn’t mean I have to be in control of everything. And I think that’s sometimes hard when we really try to keep control of everything. And you know, that’s just not healthy for anyone really to just because, you know, God will lead people to help and come around. You know, like it says in 1st Thessalonians 5:11, that we would encourage each other and lift each other up. And this is, it’s, it’s a support system based on the love of Christ and just, you know, how, how this has all come about and the, the thing about the documentary, where would someone be able to find that? Like probably when you share about how they can connect with you, you’ll have information on your website and everything.

Jessica Ronne [00:23:41]:
So yeah, they can go to my website, jessrani.com or the caregiverdoc.com is the, the unseen documentary and then the latest documentary is uncertain doc.com.

Doris Swift [00:23:54]:
That’s awesome. And what is the M and M club?

Jessica Ronne [00:23:57]:
What is the M and M Club? That is going to be a three hour club for disabled individuals ages 13 to 50. We’ve partnered with a local church here in West Michigan and it’s going to provide respite for their caregiver so they can come and hang out at the club, do activities. We’ll do movies and crafts and activities and sports and their parents or caregivers can take a three hour break and just, you know, exhale for a couple of hours. Our long term goal is to partner with churches nationwide to, to be Able to provide this Eminem club. It’s the meet and Mingle club.

Doris Swift [00:24:33]:
Oh, nice. Okay.

Jessica Ronne [00:24:35]:
Yeah. For disabled individuals and their families throughout the nation.

Doris Swift [00:24:41]:
Wonderful. Meet and mingle. And it’s just. It’s meeting the need of both the caregiver and those who are in the club because they need to meet and mingle.

Jessica Ronne [00:24:51]:
Yeah. They need purpose and meaning and. Right. Fun activities that they can be a part of. And so, yeah, it’s. It’s kind of dual purposed.

Doris Swift [00:25:00]:
I think that’s beautiful. And then, you know, of course, you. You share about the season when you were Lucas’s primary caregiver. And now he is in a place where he’s thriving. And like you said, someone that gets, you know, a little older would probably doesn’t want their mom, you know, to keep doing this. So now you can be his mom, like.

Jessica Ronne [00:25:24]:
Yeah, exactly. And that’s the beauty. You know, I can go. And there isn’t any resentment tied to it anymore. You know, towards those final years of him living at home, there was a lot of resentment because he required so much care as he aged and grew stronger. And I’m getting older as well, and now I can just show up and be his mom and just hang out with him. I don’t, you know, if he. He needs a bath or something.

Jessica Ronne [00:25:48]:
Here you go. He wants a bath.

Doris Swift [00:25:51]:
That is so precious. You know, like, you were talking about how every, you know, every family needs some type of break and can just take a breath and that makes them refreshed more to continue on what they need to do. And just seeing the common threads, even though all the different stories are unique in many ways, there’s common threads in all the stories. And so thank you again for bringing up that it is important to name what it is we’re feeling or what we’re going through. And the fact that the resentment just kind of comes that way. Like it. You don’t purposely want to feel resentful of anything. It’s just how it kind of plays out.

Doris Swift [00:26:39]:
But that it’s okay that you have that feeling. It doesn’t make you a bad person or that you’re not a good caregiver or that you don’t love someone.

Jessica Ronne [00:26:48]:
You.

Doris Swift [00:26:49]:
It’s just challenging. And to be able to say that without because. Because that would be then tied to guilt and that kind of thing. So this is very freeing for a caregiver to search out and explore the resources that you have and read your books and. And it’s cool to read them all. You know, of course so yeah, because it’s, you know, it’s all kind of flows together, you know, the story of how God has unfolded, all of those things. And maybe someone listening right now isn’t called to start a non profit, but maybe they can partner with someone who already has a nonprofit or a project or a program or volunteer, you know, somewhere. And that gives everyone a sense of purpose and love and that they can be a support in some way.

Doris Swift [00:27:48]:
Because sometimes people just don’t know what to do. Do you find that?

Jessica Ronne [00:27:51]:
Oh yeah, absolutely. And I think a lot of that is tied to the thought process of are they going to expect me to stay with the disabled child or the parent with Alzheimer’s? The fear of the unknown. And I would just say to anybody, no, there is no expectation that you necessarily stay with that person or provide respite for that person. But if you could even bring a meal or put some, you know, gift cards in the mailbox or do some yard work or some cleaning, like as caregivers, we have really long to do lists and if you can take a few of those things off of our to do list, that’s extremely helpful.

Doris Swift [00:28:30]:
Great advice and wisdom there. Because sometimes people just don’t know what they can do and then they don’t know what to say. And so just like listen, I think just listening is helpful, right. And have somebody be able to share their heart and listen, give them an opportunity to just talk things out. But I love how earlier in the show you highly recommended that people don’t in the caregiving situation, but also like when there’s loss, things like that, not to expect that your spouse would be a counselor or you know, that you would have to do that, but to seek someone who is trained in that area and someone outside of the situation that can help to bring some encouragement and some clarity to the situation and to give tools and practical steps. So, so I love that you brought that out because oftentimes people don’t even want to go to a counselor because they feel like that is like a weakness or something. But no, I mean, when we’re weak, we’re strong and God leads us to people, you know, godly people who he has trained and has called to, to do that and help people. So, so I love that you brought that up.

Doris Swift [00:29:51]:
And so if you have any last bit of encouragement that you feel like you want to share with whoever’s listening right now, and then if you could share also with the list again how they can connect with you and reach out and find your books and your Resources and your podcast and all the things.

Jessica Ronne [00:30:10]:
Sure. For anyone who’s not a caregiver listening, but you would want to help caregivers. Just going back to, you know, offering something. And I would just say too, don’t even leave it open ended because as caregivers we’re so good at pretending like we’re fine, but we’re really not. So even if you’re going to offer a meal, make it something like, hey, I’m going to bring you a meal on Wednesday night. Do you prefer lasagna or tacos? I’ll leave it on your front door or on your front porch so you don’t even have to answer the door. And that is such a boost to our spirits. And it’s so helpful too just to have some of those daily things taken care of.

Jessica Ronne [00:30:48]:
And then any caregivers who are listening, I would just really encourage you to try to stay present. As caregivers, I think we focus so much on the past and the shame and the guilt. If I, you know, would have done things differently, maybe my child wouldn’t be disabled or my loved one wouldn’t have cancer or we focus on the future and all these what if scenarios. What if my loved one dies? What if there’s never a group home for my child? And in focusing so much energy on the past or the future, we fail to stay present. And that’s the present is where the joy is found and that’s where the Lord is found. It’s only in each and every present moment that we’re blessed to have with our loved ones. So just trying to like recenter when you find yourself spiraling in either the past or the future and coming back to the present and even just saying something like, lord, just help me to stay present because that’s all that truly matters in this life. And then yeah, all the places you can find me, the Lucas Project [email protected] I’[email protected] I’m on Facebook @JessRoni official I’m on Instagram Jess + the mess.

Jessica Ronne [00:32:00]:
And I think that’s about it.

Doris Swift [00:32:03]:
Nice. Well, thank you for sharing all that and especially too when you shared how to go about in helping someone because it could be really applicable in any hard season, you know, where you want to reach out to someone and help if they’re going through something. Maybe they, they have had an illness in the family or maybe they just like in our situation, our house is flooded twice, you know, and things like that, like people are like, what can we Do. But instead of just saying, let me know if you need, blah, blah, blah, because they’re not going to.

Jessica Ronne [00:32:35]:
Nobody’s going to do that. And let me know what you can do too. We’re not going to. We’re not going to let you know. So don’t leave it open ended. Hey, we’re bringing a church crew over Saturday to do some yard work. Can you text me a list of what you want done, we’ll get it done for you type of thing?

Doris Swift [00:32:52]:
Nice.

Jessica Ronne [00:32:52]:
Yeah, it just has to. Don’t leave it open ended. Yeah.

Doris Swift [00:32:58]:
And you know, that’s great in how you said, do you want tacos or lasagna? Like, just give them easy choices.

Jessica Ronne [00:33:04]:
Right.

Doris Swift [00:33:05]:
Because oftentimes people don’t even know what they need. Like, it’s overwhelming just to try to say, like, well, what do you need right now? It’s like, I don’t even know. I don’t know what I need. But if you just say, you know, I want to bring a meal, what do you want? This or this? It’s like, oh, okay, how about that? You know, it makes it a little easier and not overwhelming for the person receiving too. So I love that so much. And so those of you who are listening right now, I know that you have been encouraged. Maybe you are a caregiver or like Jess had said, you might not be right now or you may be facing that in the future. You know, someone that’s going through that and to just point them to Jess’s resources and check it out yourself.

Doris Swift [00:33:51]:
And Jess, thank you so much for being on the show. This has been really just such a rich conversation and so needed because it really, it really touches a lot of lives right now, you know. So thank you so much for being on.

Jessica Ronne [00:34:07]:
Oh, thank you.

Doris Swift [00:34:08]:
And I hope to have you back on because I know you’re gonna do more things and write more books and.

Jessica Ronne [00:34:14]:
Yeah, I have a few. I have a few in the docket.

Doris Swift [00:34:17]:
Oh, wow.

Jessica Ronne [00:34:19]:
Wow.

Doris Swift [00:34:19]:
So that’s really encouraging too, for someone who really feels like their plate is full. But just because you have a full plate doesn’t mean you can’t have a full heart. And God will help carve out time to whatever it is that he’s calling you to do. And there might be things that he calls you to lay down and then things to pick up and it might just change in different seasons that you’re in. And it’s okay. It’s okay to just follow the Lord’s lead. And. And so again, thank you for being on the show.

Doris Swift [00:34:49]:
And friends, when you check out the site, be sure to share it. Be sure to share it. Check out her podcast. You listen to podcasts, so go check that out, because really, it’s something for everyone. Don’t just feel like this is only for a certain niche of people. You know, this is really encouraging for everyone because it can be applicable to all of our lives. So, friends, I hope you’ll join me next time when I talk with another guest who’s taking action, where their passion, compassion and conviction intersect. Until then, friends, have a blessed week and I’ll talk to you soon.

Welcome back to Fierce Calling! In this inspiring episode, host Doris Swift sits down with Robin Gerblick, an award-winning author, biblical life coach, and founder of the Exodus Women’s Retreat. Robin shares her powerful story of redemption, from a painful past marked by abortion and decades of wandering, to finding healing and purpose through Jesus. Together, Doris and Robin discuss the real, raw, and redeemed journey that led Robin to embrace forgiveness, launch a transformative women’s ministry, and write her book, Giving Up Grace: A Spiritual Rebranding of the Soul.

Robin opens up about the challenges she faced, the grace she found after hitting rock bottom, and how God used her story to impact the lives of other women. Whether you’re struggling with regret, searching for healing, or just needing a reminder that it’s never too late to step into your calling, Robin’s testimony will encourage you to trust God’s timing and reclaim your joy.

Plus, discover how Robin’s retreats empower women to encounter God in the wilderness and take the next steps toward spiritual wholeness.

Tune in for an honest, hope-filled conversation about surrender, restoration, and stepping boldly where passion, compassion, and conviction intersect!

00:00 “Surrendering Joy Stealers”

05:17 “Real, Raw, Redeemed Journey”

09:27 Regret Over Missed Adoption Choice

11:53 “Seeking Identity Before Faith”

15:31 “Giving Up Grace Explained”

17:54 “Believing Is Seeing: Trusting God”

22:52 Abortion’s Lasting Impact on Fertility

24:41 Volunteering at Crisis Pregnancy Centers

28:33 “Grace: Healing and Reflection”

31:43 Grace, Stories, and Comfort

36:51 “Faith-Driven Success and Leadership”

39:48 Post-Abortion Support and Encouragement

42:49 Forgiveness Journey and Healing Resources

You can connect with Robin at robingerblick.com where you’ll find her book, social media links, the Exodus Women’s Retreat, and more! She’d love to hear from you and continue the conversation!

Check out Surrender the Joy Stealers: Rediscover the Jesus Joy in You 6-week Bible study rooted in John 15. You can find more info at https://dorisswift.com/book/

Find my free resources including Fear Fighting Bible Verses, Simple Tips for Sharing Your Faith, Surrender the Joy Stealers, Step Out of Your Doubt and Into Your Calling ebook, and more on my dorisswift.com homepage!

Did you know that following, rating, and leaving a review over at Podchaser or Apple Podcasts helps others discover the show too? I would so appreciate it, friend!

Check out my speaking page, grab my flyer, and let’s talk about me speaking at your next women’s event…

I hope this episode encouraged, inspired, and challenged you to cultivate community, live and walk in the value and worth God gave you, and take action where your passion, compassion, and conviction intersect.

If you’re looking for a speaker for your next women’s conference, retreat, luncheon, or workshop, reach out and connect with me on my speaker page at https://www.womenspeakers.com/florida/edgewater/speaker/doris-swift

Let’s have a chat about your next event!

Stay tuned for more amazing content and remember to check the show notes for all the links mentioned.

Thank you for being a part of our community. We are grateful for your continued support and encourage you to embrace the unique gifts that make you magnificently you.

I hope you’ll join me next time when I talk with another guest who is taking action where her passion, compassion, and conviction intersect …

Until then friend, have a blessed week, and I’ll talk to you soon.

With love and joy,

Doris

P.S. Don’t forget to follow us on social media for bite-sized wisdom and inspiration from Doris and our incredible guests! 📲

Doris Swift [00:01:53]:
What is threatening to steal your joy? What is it that feels so heavy right now that you could barely stand? God has a plan, and his plan is to surrender it. Surrender it to him. It might be a prodigal. It might be a relationship, a marriage, something with your job. So many things. We have so many amazing blessings, but there are so many things in our life that threaten to steal our joy. I’m Dora Swift, author of the award winning six week bible study, Surrender the Joy Stealers Rediscover the Jesus Joy in You, And it helps women rediscover the overflowing, ever present Jesus joy within that fills, empowers, and ripens the fruit that God produces in our lives. Using personal and biblical stories, I share how you can identify your joy stealers, surrender them to God, reawaken the joy within, and share the joy with others.

Doris Swift [00:02:56]:
You can do it on your own or with a group. Check it out, friends. Surrender the Joy Stealers. Rediscover the Jesus joy in you. It’s available on all the online retailers. It’s time to take your joy back. Welcome back to the show. Today, I’m excited to introduce to you my friend, Robin Gerblick.

Doris Swift [00:03:17]:
She is an award winning author. She’s a biblical life coach, a certified personal trainer, and Pilates instructor. Hello. I’m impressed with that. I need more of that in my life. And I just love that she’s a lover of life and the living water. That’s amazing. And she has so many things going on, wonderful ministry work that she does.

Doris Swift [00:03:40]:
She has, a retreat, the Exodus Women’s Retreat, and we’re also gonna talk about her book, Giving Up Grace, a Spiritual Rebranding of the Soul. And you’re gonna wanna hear all about that. And I would love if you would share a little bit more about yourself, Robin. Welcome to the show.

Robin Gerblick [00:04:01]:
Thanks so much, Doris. I’ve been looking forward to this. We’ve we’ve had a few schedule changes, and I’m excited excited to be here. So thanks.

Doris Swift [00:04:10]:
Thank you. And, yeah. So you are married to your best friend, which I love, and, and you go between a couple of different states. We were talking earlier, Arizona and Idaho. Right. So those of you who are listening, I know I have some listeners in those states. So, Robin, I would love if you would share a little bit about your story, however the Lord leads you, and how you’re taking action where your passion, compassion, and conviction intersect.

Robin Gerblick [00:04:39]:
Yeah. That’s perfect. As we were talking about about earlier, I I just love that because that’s how how God uses us, and he calls us. And I love the scripture that you that you use, in your notes. It’s I’m gonna remind myself, but I think it’s the Ephesians three twenty. And I just love that because God is able to do so much more than we could ever possibly imagine and all the glory to him. But what I really love is it’s never too late to use your story. You know? God can always use it.

Robin Gerblick [00:05:17]:
And I I think for me, I always felt like I was late to the party. I’m a lot older than people think, and I just I just think it took me so long to well, it took me a really long time to find Jesus, number one, and then to find healing for my, my abortion journey that I had, my inability to have children because of that. It it just took so long that I I felt like like, god, are you ever gonna once I found Jesus, I’m like, are you ever gonna use me? It’s like it just seemed to go on forever. But, yeah, my story is is hard, and, I have these three words that describe it. So there it’s real, raw, and redeemed. And I know my life was just so upside down and hard when I was younger, but that started with an abortion when I was 19. And and I truly thought I was gonna marry that guy and have, you know, the family, the white picket fence, the station wagon, the 2.5 children, but that, it didn’t play out that that way at all. He he didn’t want anything to do with me.

Robin Gerblick [00:06:35]:
And, so that sort of started my what I called my forty year wandering in the desert like the like the Israelites, you know, searching for manna and living water and anything really that would fill the the spot that Jesus was meant to fill. But when you don’t know Jesus, you can go in a lot of a lot of different directions, which is what I did. And, you know, I I I wanna say I don’t have any regrets because God does use every bit of our story for his good and his glory. And if I had it to do over again, I well, there are certain things that I definitely would do differently. But, but what he’s given me now on the end of the redemption side is just so so amazing. And I think that’s where our our passion and compassion and conviction collide.

Doris Swift [00:07:37]:
Yeah. So true. And I love your your words, real raw redeemed. It’s just something that is is a powerful statement, and I know that a lot of us can really relate to that and how you talked about a forty year wandering. So things started to really spiral in your life when you were 19 then, and things didn’t look quite the way you thought they were gonna look, which oftentimes in our life, things happen and it’s not what we would have planned. And we might say, this is not my story, God. What, you know, what is this all about? But what was the circumstance at the time when you, you know, found yourself pregnant and was it something that others in your life were encouraging you to do? Or how how was it back then as a 19 year old girl?

Robin Gerblick [00:08:35]:
Yeah. And back then, when we’re talking, was, like, nineteen seventy three. So that was just when, you know, Roe v Wade was coming on the scene, and I was also on birth control when I got pregnant, which is a big misconception that a lot of people have and that the abortion industry would love to, you know, think have you think otherwise. But but, really, there’s quite a few women that do get pregnant on birth control. So you think you’re doing the right thing and and really you’re not. And I didn’t everyone, including my parents, wanted abortion for me. I didn’t know what I wanted because I was too young, too immature. I I I was just scared.

Robin Gerblick [00:09:27]:
You know? I was really scared. I just saw I was in just started college. I I saw everything going away, you know, all the dreams, all the goals, everything. And, again, you know, I didn’t I didn’t know Jesus, so there was a huge component missing in in all the decision making and and really what my heart would have wanted. And it’s funny because now I call myself this will bug you, but I call myself, pro choice because always have to say because. Right? But because women do have a choice. You know, we can choose to have our babies, or we can choose to give them up for adoption. And so my regret would be that I that I didn’t have my baby and give it up for adoption because today, I would know my child.

Robin Gerblick [00:10:23]:
And so, you know, that is a that is a choice. So women that think, you know, that they don’t have a choice, they really do. And and so I I had no counseling. There was no, well, let’s just say there was no compassion. Right? There was there was no no compassion for anything that I was going through. It was just like you’re gonna you’re gonna do this. This is the way it’s going, and that’s it. And that really was it.

Robin Gerblick [00:10:53]:
Mhmm. So that, excuse me, you know, did start my my forty years of wandering. And, you know, that led really of women in my generation that, you know, we were sort of the free love generation growing up anyway. So it led to a lot of, a lot of failed relationships with men, failed marriages where I felt like sex equated to love and love equated to sex. They were one and the same. And, of course, now today, we know they’re not. Right? But but back then, you know, it was all I could think about. If if a man paid attention to me and wanted to have sex with me, then, okay, that’s good for me.

Robin Gerblick [00:11:39]:
Right? That means he must love me, not understanding the love of my heavenly father and and how he loves me as his daughter. That that didn’t come into the equation back then.

Doris Swift [00:11:53]:
Yeah. And because at that time, because you didn’t know Jesus and you didn’t really know everything that was true really about you, you know, who you really were. Your your true identity, you didn’t really know that at the time. And so, yeah, equating sex to love and just to feel wanted by someone, you know, wanted Yes. In that way, wanted it all, you know, and to just walk the path that just continually brought the destruction of where that was taking you. So when you found Jesus, like, what was going on in your life right before you met him? Because usually there’s something interesting right before we meet Jesus in our life. So what was going on in your life, Robin, when that was

Robin Gerblick [00:12:43]:
Yeah.

Doris Swift [00:12:43]:
Was almost, you know, when you made that that decision?

Robin Gerblick [00:12:48]:
That’s so true. And it, it really was a divine appointment with with God because I was I was in a place of sheer desperation, really. And my grandmother talked about an event. Yes. My grandmother had just passed away. And at the time, I was dating a guy who great guy, but he had custody of his four children. And so me wanting children and not being able to have children, you know, I thought, oh, this is the perfect relationship. But as I was realizing, I I can’t have a perfect relationship until I have a relationship with Jesus first, which is the direction he was leading me, but I just hadn’t recognized it yet.

Robin Gerblick [00:13:32]:
So I had all this stuff, you know, going on in my head and in my heart, and I I just I took a walk down below where I lived, and we have a a beautiful, like, stream or river down there. And I just sat on a rock, and I cried out to god literally. I I I I just said I can’t I can’t do it. I can’t do life like this anymore. It’s just not working for me, and I need help. I need help. So I was crying out to the god that I didn’t know, not knowing that he would answer me, and he did. Wow.

Robin Gerblick [00:14:09]:
And he answered it. Oh, I did. He, you know, he gave me this, lightning bolt experience that was you know, in our in our culture, you know, we believe that seeing is believing. But that day on the river, I found out that believing is truly seeing because he gave me all five senses in in the in the sensory experience that was supernatural, where I could I could see my life laid in front of me. And I could see the the man that I was with and his four children, and god was very, very clear. This is not the one. I’m the one. I’m the one.

Robin Gerblick [00:14:50]:
And until you figure that out, there’s not gonna be the one. It’s gonna be me. And so

Doris Swift [00:14:57]:
have. Yeah.

Robin Gerblick [00:14:58]:
It was it was a huge, a huge thing. I mean, I I ran back up the hill to my house. I called I called that guy, and I said, you’re a great guy. I love you. I’m you’re a a great friend. I love your children, but I can’t be with you. I I mean, like, it ended that quickly. And probably within, you know, like, a few weeks, god brought me the my best friend, the man I’m married to now of thirty two years this year.

Robin Gerblick [00:15:31]:
And, you know, god, he had this all all planned out ahead of time, and all I needed to do was receive. I needed to receive Yeah. His grace. But, there’s if you if you don’t mind, this might go a little off off where we’re talking right now. But but the reason that the book is called what it is is really because it all came back to that moment on the river. And god you know, talk about passion and conviction and all of that, but god gave me the whole vision of the book ten years before I ever actually published it. But but the name giving up grace, people, you know, they ask about that a a lot because they’re like, what do you mean giving up peace? Why would you give up? You know, god you know, they just assume god’s grace, and it is part of god’s grace. But I said, well, sometimes you need to be lost in order to be found.

Robin Gerblick [00:16:39]:
And sometimes, you need to give up the grace that you don’t know in order to get the grace that you really need. And in my case, I gave up my unborn daughter, Grace, in order to receive God’s grace. That was how he he had it planned all all along. Mhmm. And the spiritual rebranding of the soul came it it didn’t, I can say it didn’t come exactly that day because my now husband and I found Jesus together, our relationship with Jesus. Jesus came into my life that that day. But but what happened during that is a spiritual rebranding is what happens to us when we find Jesus. You know, we all of a sudden are a new creation.

Robin Gerblick [00:17:27]:
The old things have passed and the new is here. And that’s what he did to me. He just rebranded my my soul, and I’m a new creation in Christ. And then it’s like once all of that came to be, then my husband, my now husband and I, you know, it was just such a beautiful divine just a divine moment.

Doris Swift [00:17:54]:
Wow. That there is so much to unpack right there, you know, with all that you had just shared. It’s amazing. And I love how you said believing is seeing because that makes so much sense. And just the things how kind of God just put on your heart, the person you weren’t with wasn’t the right person, you know, for you to marry. You know, that wasn’t the one you were meant to be with. And so when we seek the Lord first, we can trust that we’re not gonna miss what he has for us. Like, if we try to do things on our own and we don’t go to him, or maybe we might not know him yet, and maybe someone who’s listening right now is listening because there was something in your story they needed to hear.

Doris Swift [00:18:51]:
And I love the fact that this happened in front, like, sitting by a river. What a beautiful place. You know, when we’re outside and we we just can see all the beautiful things that God created. So we can’t deny there is a creator because of all the beautiful creations and you’re out there and you’re by the water. You know, it didn’t have to happen in some, like, conference or church service. You know, it was something personal between you and the Lord and that you were humble to ask for help. And, really, that’s all it takes, you know, for us to just say, Lord, I need you. And it’s like, you know, he’s probably like, well, it’s about time.

Doris Swift [00:19:37]:
You know, you realized. But but you believed there was a god. Right? So you knew I mean, you weren’t sure who you were talking to, but you always had believed there was a god, or how were you kinda brought up? Was that something that you had always always believed?

Robin Gerblick [00:19:52]:
Right. No. It wasn’t. So I I did not grow up in a Christian home. My parents were wonderful. I had, you know, just a great a great childhood, but we didn’t we didn’t go to church. We were called the CEOs, Christmas and Easter only. And so that was my

Doris Swift [00:20:13]:
Or the creaster.

Robin Gerblick [00:20:14]:
Yeah. There we go. But, yeah, that was my my introduction, I guess, to religion. And when I was in junior high, I did attend, youth group for a while. But but what I saw there and I don’t, you know, I don’t know. This was just my young perception of it, but it seemed so hypocritical at the time where where I’d see people that were that were being Christ like during on Sunday, let’s say. But then during the week, they were completely different and not living what they said they were living on Sunday. And so it I I don’t know.

Robin Gerblick [00:20:56]:
I had a lot of disillusionment there, so I quit going. But but I always believed that there was a god, and and in the book, I talk I talk a lot about that, about growing up and how god was present during all stages of of my life. It’s just that I didn’t recognize it. You know, he has so many characteristics of of his grace that manifested themselves throughout my life. And I just, my eyes weren’t open until the day on the river. And then there were so many incredible incredible supernatural events that that god just, you know, like, you are gonna know that I am who I say I am. Right? I’m I’m gonna show you.

Doris Swift [00:21:47]:
Yeah. And you just and you asked. You were like, please, Lord, you know, help me. Yeah. And you like you said, you were at a point of desperation, and sometimes that’s what it takes to be at that point and to experience that very warm, loving, powerful presence of God. Because there’s so many that might go through life just kind of complacent.

Robin Gerblick [00:22:11]:
Mhmm.

Doris Swift [00:22:12]:
Even believing, you know, knowing Jesus, believing Jesus, but never having, like, some kind of experience like that. And, you know, sometimes it just takes being at the lowest parts of the valley, you know, in the pit, basically, to see, you know, that God is there. And like you said, believing is seeing. And so when you because you were talking talking a lot about what happened after you had had your abortion, so then when did you find out that this caused, a a physical issue with you not being able to have children? That was that was the the cause of that?

Robin Gerblick [00:22:52]:
Mhmm. Yes. And, unfortunately, in the abortion that I had when I was 19, while it was my first, it wasn’t the last. And so I I have been married, three times before with my now husband. And so during those relationships, even though they were not, good, I I call them there were so many spiritual red flags. But, again, prior to that, I didn’t I didn’t know Jesus. And so, all of these things came up, but in my heart, I still wanted to have children. And so as my life progressed with these relationships in, going through infertility treatments and things like that, come to find out that there was just too much damage from the abortion, which is another kind of a a lie that we hear from the abortion industry is that, you know, they’ll say, oh, yeah.

Robin Gerblick [00:23:51]:
You can have multiple abortions and still get pregnant, which is true. But but they’re not telling you the other part is that there are serious consequences, physically, mentally, emotionally, all of that that that take place and may not take place right away afterwards. But Yeah. But as you as you live out your life and you start feeling the the emptiness or the bitterness spirit or spirit of offense or spirit of unforgiveness arising in yourself, you have to ask yourself, what is it that’s manifesting in my life that’s causing all of this? So I I went through all of that, but but through that, I found out that I couldn’t have children. There was just too much, damage done.

Doris Swift [00:24:41]:
Yeah. And as you were talking, because I, you know, I was thinking back, I volunteered several years at a faith based pregnancy center, a crisis pregnancy center, you know, where and it you know, it’s still, a ministry that I support today, and women can come in and get a free pregnancy test and, you know, and and there were a lot and still are, of course, women who come in who come in abortion minded and not really understanding or knowing all the facts and all the information that they really need in order to make, you know, an informed decision about that. And I you know, if and if you go to, you know, planned parenthood or something, they’re not gonna tell you that side of the story at all. And so, and we did have also and it’s still you know, the pregnancy centers do have the abortion recovery because statistically, if you’re in a room with, I don’t know, so many women, I I think it’s one out of every four. It might be one out of every three or two now that have experienced that in their life. And to be able to go forward for with the healing and to know that they can be forgiven and set free. And and part of that program at the end is to name your child. And you talk about your baby girl, Grace.

Doris Swift [00:26:08]:
Right? Yeah. Tell us how you came up with how did that happen with naming her?

Robin Gerblick [00:26:13]:
Yeah. That was, it’s such a good story. This is, you know, fast forward, you know, years later because I’m I’m now married to my wonderful husband, Jim. And and, I was speaking, for a woman’s group in Portland, Oregon, and there was, the director of the crisis pregnancy center was in the in the audience, and she asked if I’d like to come back to her. They just redone or redecorated. And I said, oh, sure. Yeah. I’ll I’ll love to come.

Robin Gerblick [00:26:44]:
Love to see it. So I walk in the door, and on the wall, there’s this chart of baby fetuses and all their stages of development. And I just lost it because I’ve never seen that before because I nobody ever gave me any counseling. I never got I mean, I it just I I literally just lost it in in her office and started crying uncontrollably. And she came and put her arms around me and said, honey, have you not have you not ever addressed your abortion and the grief and the trauma? Because it is trauma, and we have a certain amount of PTSD that that follows that that, you know, people may or may not acknowledge, but I hadn’t acknowledged it until that moment. And she took me in her office, took me under her wing. We were there for over two hours, and she counseled me and walked me through the different, the different stages that that we go through, you know, from from like, first of all, do I even need healing to to relief? Oh, great. I got it done.

Robin Gerblick [00:27:59]:
You know, now I don’t have to worry about it. I can get on with my life to denial. Oh, really wasn’t a baby. It was just a clump of cells, you know, to the anger, to the bitterness, to the forgiveness, all all the stages. And so she’s the one that suggested. She goes, well, have you named your child, your unborn child? And I said, no. That I mean, that would have never occurred to me. But that day, that then and there, I I named her Grace because really no other name would do.

Robin Gerblick [00:28:33]:
And Beautiful. And and then beyond that, when I left, when I at the time, I thought, oh, it was kinda creepy in a way that she gave me a a baby fetus doll of 10 because that was how far along I was when I aborted the first time. And the first time was so different than the second time, but, but she gave me this little doll. And for years, I didn’t know what to do with with the little doll. However, once that healing process started, I took Grace, and I have this beautiful, beautiful box that she’s in. And she lies on a a bed of cotton, And she’s surrounded by all the things that would have saved her life and would have saved my life had I known. There’s my mother’s cross, my grandmother’s cross, letters that I have written to her. There’s a rock in there that you know, heart shaped rock that has her name Grace on it.

Robin Gerblick [00:29:40]:
Just all of these things that, you know, like I said, that would have saved her life and would have saved my life. But interestingly enough, last year, I just started taking Grace with me on speaking engagements. And I want Yeah. Yeah. I want people to see the the evidence of of a redeemed life and that there’s hope no matter no matter what you’ve gone through. And I love there’s a if I can find it. There’s there’s a a quote that I that I just love, and I’ve I’ve come across this fairly recently, but it it’s so it’s so perfect for this. But it’s by, author Tim Timothy Keller, Walking with God through Pain and Suffering.

Robin Gerblick [00:30:33]:
But he says the idea that there is nothing in the human experience that God himself has not suffered even losing a child. I mean, when you when you think about, you know, like, all the things that we’ve gone through and and abortion, obviously, is just one, you know, one teeny thing. But but when we realize that that god and Jesus have walked through, there isn’t anything they haven’t walked through that we walk through or potentially walk through. And how Yes. How beautiful and sustaining is that for us, for our hope, you know, our hope in Jesus and for understanding his grace. That’s that’s his grace. He I mean, he showered me with his grace, which is why I had to write a book, talk about conviction. He said, you’re gonna write your story.

Robin Gerblick [00:31:32]:
Well, I don’t really wanna write my story. Well, guess what? You’re gonna be obedient. You’re gonna write your story. And now my life is like an open book. It is an open book. So

Doris Swift [00:31:43]:
Yeah. Wow. Beautiful. How, you know, the just the the picture in our minds of being showered grace upon grace and then writing that book to give him glory and share your story. Because it’s when the time is right and when God calls us to share our story, it’s it’s vulnerable, you know, for people to do that. But when we see and we know that the the word tells us that we can encourage others and comfort others through things because we have been through them and comforted by the comforter. And someone recently had had said, I think it was Abby McDonald we were talking, and you need comfort because you’ve gone through something. So if you don’t if you don’t go through anything, which life you know, of course, Jesus said in this world, we would have trouble to take heart.

Doris Swift [00:32:41]:
He’s overcome the world. But if we didn’t have a need for a comforter, we would never be comforted and know what that means. And then to be able to use our story of where we’ve been to comfort others and bring that hope to others, which is what you’re doing with your ministry. And and you have this also this retreat. And so how did that come about?

Robin Gerblick [00:33:07]:
Yeah. And that’s that’s totally, a god a god thing too. And back when, I used to be a competitive, bicycle rider, a long distance bicycle rider. And I went to a bike racing camp in in Napa Valley in the hopes of getting a job with this woman that put on these, bike racing retreats, camps, whatever. And that was the reason that I went there. And one of the one of the exercises that we did there was finding your heart’s desire. And prior to that, I have to backtrack on that, we had the first day of riding. It was it was record heat in Napa Valley, and it was, like, a hundred and five.

Robin Gerblick [00:34:02]:
And our first ride was up this ridiculous hill, hill climbing, like, right out of the gate. And I just I just bonked. I mean, literally, I bonked. I had to have the support van come and get me. I had heat stroke. I it was terrible. It was terrible. So I never got to do I never got to do any more riding on the five day five day retreat.

Robin Gerblick [00:34:25]:
But I did go and do her exercise of the heart’s desire, which I found was, kind of a little bit of hocus pocus. You know, it wasn’t it wasn’t my belief system. It was, you know, more of a universal and kind of

Doris Swift [00:34:43]:
Kinda like new age type thing.

Robin Gerblick [00:34:45]:
Kind of yeah. Like new age y thing. And and I just thought, okay. Well, I can I can ignore that part? I can still try to figure out what my heart’s desire is. And through the exercise, I found that my heart’s desire was leading women to Christ in a wilderness place just like the Israelites were in the desert. And and so during that exercise, she came up to me and she says, you know, Robin, she said, I I, I don’t really see you as a fit for our our company. She said, but what I do see is you starting your own retreat organization and leading women, you know, as you see god leading you. And and she said, but you should go home and make a vision board and, you know, have her you do it.

Robin Gerblick [00:35:40]:
You know, pray to your God. And so I’m like, that’s a great idea. So so I did, and and God just showed up big time. And, again, he gave me the name, and he said, you need to call it Exodus. And I’m like, oh, okay. And so, you know, I thought that’s a great name. Second book of the Bible. Okay.

Robin Gerblick [00:36:02]:
I’ll take it. And and so the that started. And in this this year, we celebrate our twentieth year of Exodus women’s retreats. Wow. Twenty years.

Doris Swift [00:36:16]:
That’s awesome.

Robin Gerblick [00:36:17]:
And and it’s

Doris Swift [00:36:18]:
Twenty years. Mhmm.

Robin Gerblick [00:36:20]:
Yeah. It started out, you know, very, very slow, and and I have to say I was, you know, discouraged in the beginning. We weren’t associated with any church. We were just associated with Jesus. And and I thought, oh, this will be a piece of cake. I’ll just go and talk to women’s ministry directors. They’ll love it, and they’ll sign their girls up. Well, that that didn’t happen because they didn’t know me from from Adam, and they didn’t know what my spiritual beliefs and convictions were.

Robin Gerblick [00:36:51]:
And it took me a a few years to understand that. And then once we got a website and started going online and people could find us, it just it really, really took off to where it it’s just in incredible now, and we keep asking ourselves, like like, when are we gonna when are we gonna retire? You know? Because I still have some of the same team members that I started with twenty years ago. But god’s not done with us yet. And I’m telling you, this my team talked about, you know, passion and and the whole conviction thing. And it it like, the first year that we did the retreat, we were super small and nothing like how it is right now. But, but the second year of the retreat, I heard god say loud and clear. Right? He said, how do you expect to be the leader of Exodus if you’ve never read the book of Exodus? Oh, yeah. That was like a you know, when like I said, when he shows up, you know, he he can show up really big and but it was like he was sitting right next to me and saying, you know, how how do you expect to lead when you don’t you don’t really know the story of Exodus? So I took a year off, and I studied the book of Exodus.

Robin Gerblick [00:38:13]:
And then I realized, you know, why God gave me the name for it, you know, because it was our it’s our spiritual journey into our wilderness seasons, and everybody has them. Right? And so what better way to get out of your wilderness season is to be in a physical, beautiful wilderness. So the retreats, they’re always done. We always do them on water, some kind of water. Sometimes we have to count a pool as water, but most of the time, we’re we’re in, very remote places that are hard to get to because, what the Israelites went through wasn’t easy. You know? They’re they’re forty years of of wandering. You know? But but, you know, what Moses did was to get away. You know? He he he went out into the wilderness.

Robin Gerblick [00:39:05]:
He spent three days in the wilderness seeking God and seeking God’s face. And so that’s what we do. It it’s just so cool.

Doris Swift [00:39:14]:
Wow. That is so beautiful. And I love that you took that year off to study Exodus. You know, how God directed you to it. Because it’s like, once you went through that book and you really, really, like, immersed yourself in that, you know, it it just it would seem would bring so much more meaning to what you were doing, you know, and how it all connected and related and how God gave that to you in the in the first place. So wow. That is really fascinating. I’m so glad that we talked about that.

Doris Swift [00:39:48]:
And I would love, Robin, if you would share maybe if you have a last, encouraging thing you wanna share with who is listening today because we might have, you know, someone who is listening that is struggling right now. Maybe they are post abortive and just, you know, things are manifesting in their life, things are happening. Because, oftentimes, I’m going through even counseling, because I do lay counseling and all. Just there are so many things that happen in a woman’s life and she may not realize, because I think you kind of alluded to that too. You may not realize that it’s connected to something in your past, which could have been maybe an experience with abortion or, just, you know, the wilderness as it is. You let like you said, there are seasons of wilderness that people go through. And so, if you could just share a word of encouragement right now, maybe one step forward that they can take, and then how the listener can connect with you and find out all about, you know, your book, your ministry, your your coaching, and this amazing retreat.

Robin Gerblick [00:40:56]:
Well, thank you. Thank you for that opportunity too. But I I think the biggest component, of all of that is is finding forgiveness. Like, we can’t we can’t really move forward until we find forgiveness. And when if you know if you know Jesus, then you know that you’re forgiven by him, but there’s also the component of forgiving ourselves. And so many people, you know, hide under the guilt and shame that, you know, oh, I’m I’m just not good enough. You know, I’m not enough. I hear that all the time.

Robin Gerblick [00:41:34]:
I’m just not enough. Why would Jesus? Why I mean, you know, maybe he can forgive me, but I, you know, I’ve done so many, you know, horrible things, whatever whatever it is. But but there’s another one of my favorite quotes is by is by author Adam Ramsey, and it says, Jesus is not disillusioned with you because he never had any illusions about who you were in the first place. He

Doris Swift [00:42:02]:
Wow. Right.

Robin Gerblick [00:42:03]:
Right? Like, he he created you before before you were even born. He saw you in your mother’s womb. He gets it. He knows you. He knows your heart. And when when I read that, I was like, oh, yeah. Well, why am I putting if Jesus isn’t putting that that kind of thing on me, why am why am I putting it on myself? So, you know, I think whatever whatever it takes for somebody to walk through the the healing of forgiveness, and I’m sure you’ve heard the, you know, the thing is like, unforgiveness is like drinking poison and expecting, you know, the other person to die, but you’re the one drinking the poison. You’re the one that’s poisoning yourself.

Robin Gerblick [00:42:49]:
And so, you know, I went through and that may be something for another another time, but my whole forgiveness journey is is huge. But, I think women need to know that back when I had my abortion, there there were not the resources out there today that or then that are, available today. And there’s just there’s so many things. You know? Even even our our church, you know, does a a which I’m actually leading right now, a post abortive trauma healing class. And, you know, so I think, you know, church is a great place to to start. You know, there’s a whole Christian counseling network out there where you can find, you know, Christian counselors that that deal with, you know, all kinds of wilderness experiences. And and then just seeking God’s word, you know, because his word is the is the ultimate, you know, the ultimate saving piece of our of our life. And and it allows us to understand the character and the nature of God through his grace and his word.

Doris Swift [00:43:58]:
Amen. Thank you. That is so encouraging. And I’m sure that someone listening right now really needed to hear that today. And I would love, Robin, if you could share with the listener how they can connect with you, may maybe any resources that you have that you’d love to to share about?

Robin Gerblick [00:44:15]:
No. I think if they just go to my website, which is, easy. It’s just robingerblick.com. And on the website, the the the book is there. There’s a link that goes to our Exodus Women’s Retreat page. There’s also a resources page, for different organizations that I that I feature, like, each month. So it’s kind of a one stop shopping kinda thing. So that that’s probably the best way to connect.

Robin Gerblick [00:44:48]:
And if you need prayer, there’s you know, you can just drop me a note, and I’ll be happy to pray for you or whatever your situation is.

Doris Swift [00:44:58]:
That’s amazing. And I’ll put that in the show notes so the listener can find you. And like you said, it’s easy. Just your name, Robin Gerblig. Yeah. And it’s easy to it’s it’s spelled just how it sounds, so that’s easy. And I would I I really enjoyed our conversation today. It was so great to have you on, and I would love to have you back on sometime because I think there are some things that we could really continue to talk about, and that would be really great.

Doris Swift [00:45:26]:
Yeah. I would love that.

Robin Gerblick [00:45:28]:
Yeah. Thank you so much, Doris, for the opportunity. It was my pleasure. I loved it.

Doris Swift [00:45:33]:
Thank you. And and thank you, friends, for listening today, and I hope you’ll join me next time when I talk with another woman who’s taking action where her passion, compassion, and conviction intersect. Until then, friends, have a blessed week, and I’ll talk to you soon.

Welcome back to Fierce Calling! In today’s episode, host Doris Swift welcomes friend Erin Harrigan—a Christian wife, empty nest mom, sought-after speaker, business coach, and host of the award-winning podcast “Redefining Hustle: Pursuing Success as a Christian Woman.” Erin is also the author of Pursuing Success God’s Way: A Practical Guide to Hustle with Heart, and she’s here to share her journey from achieving worldly success in business to discovering what it truly means to find fulfillment and impact by letting Jesus lead.

Listen in as Erin opens up about her radical transformation after giving her life to Christ at age 46, the traps of new age thinking, and how true success is rooted in obedience, stewardship, and joy in the Lord, not in hustle or comparison. Doris and Erin dig deep into what it means to pursue God’s assignments in every season, whether you’re working in the corporate world, beginning a new adventure at home, or stepping out into something new.

You’ll walk away encouraged to seek God first in every venture, redefine success by His standards, and take practical steps toward living abundantly (not in a prosperity gospel kind of way, but God’s way) and making kingdom impact—right where you are.

Get ready for a powerful conversation that will inspire you to surrender your joy stealers, cultivate your God-given gifts, and step into your unique calling with wholehearted faith!

00:00 “Surrender Your Joy Stealers”

05:40 From New Age to Christian Faith

10:06 Pursuing Success God’s Way

11:52 “Success: A Divine Perspective”

16:00 Avoiding Distraction: Focus on Purpose

19:18 Sin, Success, and Spiritual Guidance

21:44 Walking in Faith, Not Prosperity

25:40 Embracing Change and Identity

30:39 Listening to God’s Guidance

You can connect with Erin at erinharrigan.com, where you’ll find her books, podcast, coaching info, social media links, and more about Erin. She’d love to hear from you and continue the conversation!

Check out Surrender the Joy Stealers: Rediscover the Jesus Joy in You 6-week Bible study rooted in John 15. You can find more info at https://dorisswift.com/book/

Find my free resources including Fear Fighting Bible Verses, Simple Tips for Sharing Your Faith, Surrender the Joy Stealers, Step Out of Your Doubt and Into Your Calling ebook, and more on my dorisswift.com homepage!

Did you know that following, rating, and leaving a review over at Podchaser or Apple Podcasts helps others discover the show too? I would so appreciate it, friend!

Check out my speaking page, grab my flyer, and let’s talk about me speaking at your next women’s event…

I hope this episode encouraged, inspired, and challenged you to cultivate community, live and walk in the value and worth God gave you, and take action where your passion, compassion, and conviction intersect.

If you’re looking for a speaker for your next women’s conference, retreat, luncheon, or workshop, reach out and connect with me on my speaker page at https://www.womenspeakers.com/florida/edgewater/speaker/doris-swift

Let’s have a chat about your next event!

Stay tuned for more amazing content and remember to check the show notes for all the links mentioned.

Thank you for being a part of our community. We are grateful for your continued support and encourage you to embrace the unique gifts that make you magnificently you.

I hope you’ll join me next time when I talk with another guest who is taking action where her passion, compassion, and conviction intersect …

Until then friend, have a blessed week, and I’ll talk to you soon.

With love and joy,

Doris

P.S. Don’t forget to follow us on social media for bite-sized wisdom and inspiration from Doris and our incredible guests! 📲

Doris [00:01:53]:
What is threatening to steal your joy? What is it that feels so heavy right now that you could barely stand? God has a plan, and his plan is to surrender it. Surrender it to him. It might be a prodigal. It might be a relationship, a marriage, something with your job. So many things. We have so many amazing blessings, but there are so many things in our life that threaten to steal our joy. I’m Dora Swift, author of the award winning six week bible study, Surrender the Joy Stealers Rediscover the Jesus Joy in You, And it helps women rediscover the overflowing, ever present Jesus joy within that fills, empowers, and ripens the fruit that God produces in our lives. Using personal and biblical stories, I share how you can identify your joy stealers, surrender them to God, reawaken the joy within, and share the joy with others.

Doris [00:02:56]:
You can do it on your own or with a group. Check it out, friends. Surrender the joy stealers. Rediscover the Jesus joy in you. It’s available on all the online retailers. It’s time to take your joy back.

Welcome back to the show. Today, I am very excited to welcome my friend, Erin Harrigan.

Doris [00:03:18]:
She is a Christian wife, mom, and I’ll have to mention empty nest mom, which I love because that’s what I am too, and I know some of you listening are. She is a speaker and a business coach and the host of the award winning Pursuing Success as a Christian Woman. And she wrote an amazing book we’re gonna talk about today among other things called Pursuing Success God’s Way, A Practical Guide to Hustle with Heart. And this is for women I mean, Erin coaches, entrepreneurial women, you know, women in business, but this goes for any woman who is listening right now because there is probably something in your heart or on your heart that God wants to do in and through you. Maybe it’s something new. Maybe it’s to refresh or revitalize something that you’re already doing. So we’re gonna talk about that today, and it’s so great to have you, Erin. Welcome to the show.

Erin Harrigan [00:04:16]:
Thank you, Doris. It’s such an honor to be here on your show. I know I’ve been following you for a while, and, it’s exciting to have these conversations that the Lord appoints the time. Right? So here we are today.

Doris [00:04:28]:
Here we are today. Yes. Yes. I’m so thankful that you’re on. And I just love how you talk about hustle with heart because hustle from the world’s definition can really burn us out, and I think you have some good words of wisdom to speak into that. So I would love if you would share a little bit about your story and how you’re currently taking action, where your passion, compassion, and conviction intersect.

Erin Harrigan [00:04:57]:
So I came to Jesus later in life. I gave my life to Christ at age 46 in October of twenty fourteen. I knew of the Lord growing up, but I never had a personal relationship. Right? We we so often talk about it’s not about religion, it’s about relationship. And I came to saving grace in Jesus because of a mentor of mine who I had reached out to in my, at the time, multilevel marketing business, and I just said something is not working. I have the success. The numbers look good, but I I just don’t feel like I got it where it’s supposed to be. And she said, that’s because you don’t know who you are or whose you are.

Erin Harrigan [00:05:40]:
And she asked me if I knew Jesus. Now at the time, Doris, I was very influenced by a lot of new age thinking in the company that I was in. There was a lot of talk about universe and law of attraction and manifestation. And so I had talked a good game of that, but she I call her the velvet hammer with the grace and truth, hold me out of that and led me to Jesus that day. So what then began to happen, as we all know, is once you give your life to Christ, that changes everything. And over the years, the the next four years or so, he just began to shift the way I view business, the way I do business, how I viewed success, how I viewed achievement. And then he began to bring me sisters in Christ who were walking a very similar journey, asking me to coach them. And so that’s what I started doing.

Erin Harrigan [00:06:35]:
And then in 2019, he had me start my podcast and then take that content and begin to shape what became the book that I published in 2020. So that’s the backstory. The the ongoing story is every single day asking him, where where are you taking me today and who do I need to serve? And so doing that through coaching, of course, but also opportunities like this to be a guest on a podcast or writing. I see so much power, holy spirit power, in his daughters that we either shrink back from because we think we’re not equipped and qualified or, we overachieve in. And so he’s positioned me at this place of biblical truth and business acumen to to help them understand that life at his best is letting Jesus lead. So how do we actually do that?

Doris [00:07:35]:
Yeah. That is awesome. I love how you kinda laid that out so smoothly, and the things that you brought out were really important, nuggets there. Like, for example, when you were talking about being in a multilevel company and you were you were very successful by the world standards, but there was a new age kinda ideology or mentality that you were just kind of living out. And it’s funny because sometimes we’ll hear those messages and not really identify that it is something that is not biblical. It’s new kind of a new age type thinking, very focused inward on self and Yeah. You know, success and making things happen, like, that we can think things into existence and, you know, those kind of things. Yeah.

Doris [00:08:30]:
So I’m glad that you brought that out, and I’m glad well, of course, God had that plan to send you the velvet hammer. That’s

Erin Harrigan [00:08:38]:
right. So that’s You know, I think that the the piece about the new age, Doris, I just wanna bring out a little bit is, you know, the enemy is so skilled at and he did it to Jesus. Let’s let’s not overlook the fact that he even did it to Jesus At taking the word and twisting it and fashioning it in a way that makes sense, if if we’re not solid and anchored Yeah. In in the truth. And and so even today, as I see some of these words thrown around and and I’ve even had a couple of clients who say, well, I was listening to this, and they said this. And and I and I, of course, seek holy spirit guidance, but I’m like, hold on. Let let’s look at the truth of Scripture because we can be easily deceived.

Doris [00:09:26]:
We really can. And we can think that we remember, like, you know, sometimes it’s like, well, I don’t need to be in my Bible all the time. You know, I read that already. But then sometimes, you know, the enemy could really, like, make us remember things not exactly how written how it was written. We kinda, like, tend to paraphrase or put our own add our own words to it. And so it’s so important to stay in the word and hide our the word in our heart. And, of course, as the word says so that we don’t sin against thee, but also, you know, we wanna put on our armor and we wanna be aware of the enemy.

Doris [00:10:06]:
You know, he is very cunning, like you said, and he would love nothing more than for us to, like, forget he even exists, you know, because then he can just kind of, like, get us where we’re vulnerable and, you know, so I I think it’s so important what you are doing where you are not taking out the word success because sometimes that could have like negative connotations because it kind of sometimes we really relate it to, like, striving or trying to be on top or who do we have to step on to get there and those kind of things, you know, of the world. But so what does pursuing success god God’s way look like? Like, when someone comes to you and they want help, maybe they’re coming from a corporate background or maybe they’re, you know, maybe have been a stay at home mom for years, and now their their kids are grown and they wanna pursue some new interests that they haven’t started. How would you help women that are in those situations?

Erin Harrigan [00:11:12]:
First, it’s understanding that the Lord gives each of us specific assignments. One of an author that I’ve read, Cara Stott, says that he gives us commissions. Right? We have the great commission. Mhmm. But he gives us assignments through which we show up and make an impact in the kingdom. We reflect Jesus’s light. And so number one, it’s important to realize that he does assign us. Whether we feel equipped or qualified, you may have a yearning in your heart that you know is from the Lord because you keep checking in with him about it.

Erin Harrigan [00:11:52]:
Make no mistake, he uses each of us and our gifts. But we’ve gotta look at success and understand what it means from God’s perspective. When I wrote my book, one of the books, the the authors that I was reading, was the incredible Charles Stanley. And he wrote a lot about what success meant to the Lord and this idea of sort of whole person prosperity that the Lord’s main goal for us is always to be deeply connected in relationship with him. So success to the Lord is not about the boxes we check or the the money we make or the clients that we have or the followers, etcetera. It’s really about how we’re living out our relationship with him. That said, he wants us to be good stewards of the gifts he’s given us, the talents, the assignments. Right? And so to be successful in any of those assignments is really about seeking him first and being willing to listen, but not just stop at listening.

Erin Harrigan [00:12:59]:
We’ve gotta be obedient. We have to take action. It’s also riding the fine line, Doris, of God gave me this action and not multiplying it. So I’m really good at that. Right? And he knows he knows. He’ll give me one thing to do, and I’ll say, but if I double that, I’ll have even more impact. And he he always reels me back in. So defining success from that perspective of your relationship with the Lord.

Erin Harrigan [00:13:25]:
And are you listening? Are you seeking? And then are you being obedient in it? I think the hard part for us is that the world is so loud about what success needs to look like, whether you’re on a corporate ladder or a nonprofit leader or a business owner. It’s very loud that we have to go after it and make it happen, and we have to hustle harder. And so as everything else with the enemy involved, the world has really taken some of these definitions out of context of how the Lord would define them. And so I I I love to help women redefine it so that not by our definition, but by his definition. And so pursuing success his way is really about letting him lead you in all of that.

Doris [00:14:13]:
Yeah. When we were talking about how you continually wanna oh, but I can do then I can do this and I can do that. Because we sometimes get ahead of not only ourselves, but of God’s plan of what he wants us to do. And it just reminds me of that scripture. I believe it’s in Zechariah four about not to despise small beginnings. And I think it’s kind of we can also relate that to smaller steps no matter what part of our journey we’re in because, you know, sometimes we feel like the farther along we are, the farther along we should be. And that’s not really true, is it, Erin? What would you say about that kind of thought process?

Erin Harrigan [00:14:58]:
Yeah. You know, so often, I think it comes down to two things. One is we think we know where we should be in comparison either to where we were or to where others are. And we’re clear. Right? The Lord told Joshua to not look left and right. He tells us this throughout the word. Like, no. No.

Erin Harrigan [00:15:19]:
No. Don’t pay attention to what don’t be conformed to the world. Right? You have a unique and spirit filled assignment. Pay attention to your assignment. So number one, I think we get caught up looking left and right and thinking we should be further along or, or if we are further along that we should have more or whatever that is. And then secondly, this always comes back to seeking seeking him. The foundational verses for my my business are John fifteen four and five. Right? Because we can do nothing without him, and all of our nourishment comes from the vine.

Erin Harrigan [00:16:00]:
But it can be really easy to wonder why we’re not where we should be or to to hear the noise of, well, you should have a five k month or a 10 k month, and you need to have 10,000 followers, and you need to have a hundred thousand podcast downloads and all of these numbers. And so then that distracts us from focusing on being fully devoted in what he’s given us to do. And so what I would say to women be anyone, but I would say to women who who are in those places where you feel like you’re spiraling and all of that noise is that you’ve gotta go back. You’ve gotta circle back and seek him and make that a consistent practice because you don’t know who he’s gonna cross paths for you today. You you don’t know who you’re going to impact today. And what if that person you impact was a seeker and gets to experience Jesus because of the small supposedly small step you took? I mean, really, that’s what we’re here to do. Right?

Doris [00:17:07]:
Yes. Yeah. Very true. And I love how you use the word impact because sometimes we feel like impact has to be something loud and big and celebratory when, like, you were just kind of explaining that you can make a huge impact on someone even by the smallest mustard seed of faith that you, you know, might even be carrying today or a little seed that you might plant in someone else, you know, that day. So that’s really

Doris [00:17:41]:
important and kind of more of God’s economy than we think of Amen. What we’re taught. And I love how you brought up John 15, the Bible study I wrote, surrender the joy stealers, rediscover the Jesus joy in you is rooted in John 15. So I love that passage of scripture also and how we are the branches and we need the vine. And without him, we you know, apart from him, we cannot do anything. We can do nothing.

Erin Harrigan [00:18:08]:
I think so often. My pastor was talking about this on Sunday for resurrection, how we seek the joy and the peace and the fulfillment in all of the temporal outward things. And and then so then we’re not looking to the vine for that nourishment. We’re looking outside of the vine for that nourishment. And in a new age perspective like we talked about earlier, we’re we’re seeking inside ourselves for that. Right? And so often we can be led off track because not necessarily that we’re discontent, although that’s probably what’s really underneath of it. It’s really the sin of coveting.

Doris [00:18:49]:
Yeah.

Erin Harrigan [00:18:50]:
And so we’ve gotta stay connected to the vine so that all of our nourishment and joy and peace and all of it is coming from him, and we’re not trying to find it outside where it will never measure up.

Doris [00:19:03]:
Yeah. That word covet, we we will do that and not even realize it. Yeah. We will. Sin is sneaky sometimes. You know what I mean? So sneaky. Obviously, there’s things that we know we’re not supposed to do. Like, I’m not gonna steal.

Doris [00:19:18]:
I’m not gonna, you know, do this or that, you know, that are obvious sinful behaviors. But we, in our own humanness, can tend to fall into sin or a pattern of something like that, like coveting. And, I think it’s really interesting and great how you brought out having things to show for it. Like, what you you’ve been doing, like, well, this month you have to do this much more or this much more. And, of course, anyone who’s worked in the corporate world or has maybe been, in a relationship with someone that was in the corporate. You know, there’s always someone on top that is looking down and saying, well, what are you gonna do for me today? You know, yesterday, oh, great. You did this or that, but what about today? And, you know, it’s kind of really refreshing to just follow the lord’s lead and have him direct our steps and not be under that kind of pressure. Because, like you were saying, sometimes what we might equate success to is what have we accumulated.

Doris [00:20:30]:
Like, what awards do we have on our shelf, or how big is our house, or how many cars, or what kind of cars, or, you know, those things kind of and like you were saying, measuring up, we sometimes measure success by those outward, tangible, and, you know, things that will be gone in an instant. You know? Like, we have to we have to store up our treasures in heaven. So

Erin Harrigan [00:20:59]:
Yeah. And, Doris, as you’re saying that, what’s coming up for me, thank you, Holy Spirit, is that somebody may be listening to this and going, but but I I do have numbers that I need to meet, and I do have monthly goals or quarterly goals, or I’m in sales, and I do have to hit these these milestones, etcetera. The math is real. Mhmm. We know this. Yeah. Right? At the same time, if if you are following the Lord, if you are anchored in the Lord and not letting those things define you, he will give you the strength and power to do the work in the right ways that that you will hit those numbers, even exceed those numbers. And please hear me.

Erin Harrigan [00:21:44]:
I am not talking prosperity gospel here. But when we are walking in the center of his will, we have all experienced moments where things have happened or things came together, and we thought, what what the heck happened? Right? I’m standing in the house that the Lord brought us to that we did not see on our radar earlier this year. And so, yes, I acknowledge that the numbers are real and there’s work that we have to do. Right? But it’s seeking him daily to say, what is my part in this? How can I show up and do this work, but do it in a way that glorifies you? And trust that as long as I am diligent to do the work before me, that that you will ensure that whatever I need and whatever this company that you’ve brought me to needs will happen so that we’re not getting caught up in defining ourselves by those worldly measures. Because if those worldly measures change, then who are you?

Doris [00:22:40]:
Yeah. Yes. That is so encouraging, and it it is so spot on and true because God has us in certain places and certain seasons in our lives for certain reasons we don’t even have a clue about, and maybe later on look back and say, oh, okay. Or maybe not. But there are maybe people that he wants us there to, you know, hear his truth, seeing us live out the truth. So that is a wonderful way to live out being a follower of Jesus and living to the Christian values and with integrity because that stands out so much, especially in a competitive world where people might tend to be tempted to take shortcuts in order to achieve something so that it appears like they might have done all the work or you know? And so having integrity. And I and I love that you brought out identity too because I was a banker for almost thirty years.

Erin Harrigan [00:23:52]:
Mhmm.

Doris [00:23:52]:
And that’s like you know, it almost feels like it becomes part of your DNA when you are in something for that long a time. And then when you leave, it’s so strange that you’re not I mean, in the beginning, you’re thinking I’m maybe I’m just on vacation or, you know, but, you know and that can happen in any arena. I mean, it happens when maybe, an empty nest kind of situation. Yep. Or, you know, other maybe you’re a caregiver for someone and then that season ends. So, how do you encourage people in those changes of seasons so that they don’t, for one thing, fall into the identity crisis and also to realize that this is not the end of the as long as I’m breathing, as long as I’m still here on Earth, there’s something God wants, me to partner with him in. So what would you say to encourage him?

Erin Harrigan [00:24:59]:
Well, the first, I it’s so important for us to acknowledge that, you know, we may be sitting in chapter 15 of our story, but the lord is well ahead of us in chapter 20 like, he’s written it. Right? And so number one, trusting that he made you. He knows you. He knows exact scripture. Right? Ephesians we can quote a million things. Ephesians two ten, others, that there is a purpose in what you’re doing. And that each of these seasons, whether it’s the job that you have or being a mom or taking care of aging parents or these are all seasons. These are all assignments.

Erin Harrigan [00:25:40]:
Right? And that those seasons are going to change, and they often don’t change the way we want or when we want. I mean, you know, let’s look at the reality right now. There are federal workers who have been in roles for decades. The challenge is, do we only define ourselves? Is our sole identity that role? And I know as a mom, it’s hard because we define ourselves as being a mom. But if we can if we can understand that seasons change and that the Lord is going to use us in season in the best ways that glorify him, that impact the kingdom, that he works all things together for our good, even if it doesn’t look the way we think it should, then we can untie ourselves, untether ourselves from what’s changing around us and be tethered to I am his. He made me. He gave me the gifts and talents. And therefore, Lord, what what’s what’s the next assignment that you have for me? Or maybe we wanna change in an assignment, and he’s going, no.

Erin Harrigan [00:26:49]:
No. No. You have to stay where you are because there’s more work for you. There I have more for you here. When Jesus said, I came to give them life and life abundantly, again, another word that we take out of context, you know, we think, oh, abundantly, overflow, the dollars and the success and, you know, all of the things. But abundant life in Jesus is, again, about the relationship. It’s about the overflow of peace and joy and contentment no matter what season we’re in. All of that takes deepening your relationship with him and being consistent in growing that relationship with him and finding our identity right there.

Erin Harrigan [00:27:32]:
Right there. Because when our kids leave the house, right, like, that’s hard. But they’re supposed to leave the house. You know what I mean? All of these are things and situations and opportunities for us to steward, but not for us to hold a tight grip on.

Doris [00:27:53]:
Yeah. Very good word there. Yes. For us to steward, but also be willing to open our hands. And like you said, you know, sometimes God does have us somewhere, and we we think we’re ready to leave, or we think it’s time to move on. And God’s like, not yet. And it it’s also maybe because it’s setting up the next season, and the timing is not our timing. So it has to be God’s timing, which is perfect.

Doris [00:28:29]:
Sometimes it’s hard to wait on. But Right. But so that’s really encouraging for someone who is listening right now who may be about to change seasons or has just entered a new one. And I know we always equate these things to seasons, and I think it it is cool that we can do that. And Yeah. You know, and then we also can use the the farming and the sowing and the

Erin Harrigan [00:28:56]:
reaping and you know? Well, he is a god of agriculture, and that means he’s a god of multiplication.

Doris [00:29:03]:
Yes.

Erin Harrigan [00:29:03]:
You know, you don’t plant one seed and get one plant, generally.

Doris [00:29:06]:
Yeah.

Erin Harrigan [00:29:07]:
Right? And so it is seasons, and he does plant us and does give us multiple outlets to steward things. You know, we’re so blessed that he invites us to co labor. And whatever that is, as a parent, as a as a sister, as a, you know, in our work, It it but there but there are seasons. And, yes, it can be hard to wait on his perfect time. Yeah.

Doris [00:29:33]:
You’re right.

Erin Harrigan [00:29:33]:
But he already knows. He does.

Doris [00:29:35]:
He already knows, and we don’t need to know everything. Because if we did we would be like, oh.

Erin Harrigan [00:29:42]:
Look, we don’t need to.

Doris [00:29:43]:
Sometimes it’s better for us not to know right now.

Erin Harrigan [00:29:46]:
Exactly. Down the pike.

Doris [00:29:49]:
So I think that’s amazing. But so when you talk with women, maybe during coaching and or even just mentoring and ministering and speaking because you also do a lot of speaking in different arenas in both probably secular companies and, you know, Christian companies or or Christian women’s events. What are maybe if you could think of is there one step that stands out that could encourage someone today that they might do? Like, some type of action that they could take and it you know, it doesn’t have to be anything, like you said, huge. But is there is there some kind of action that they might take today just as, like, a first step?

Erin Harrigan [00:30:39]:
Yeah. So often, I will work with women who will say, well, I don’t know about this or that or and and I always this is the the action. What did God tell you? What did God tell you? What did God tell you about that? Right? So then the action is to go back and ask him. Right? Now sometimes when I say that, women will go, mhmm. I know what he told me, and I didn’t do it. Right? But it’s the reminder to all of us that he’s just waiting for us to come to him. He’s waiting for us to come to him. And sometimes we use that as an excuse because we’ll say, oh, but I’m waiting on God.

Erin Harrigan [00:31:22]:
And and and God’s like, no. No. No. I already empowered you. It’s time to step. I the action is take it back to him. Go back to him. Seek him.

Erin Harrigan [00:31:30]:
Seek him. Seek him. To me, that’s always the action, and he will show you what’s next or remind you of what he told you to do that you didn’t do. And in his loving and and patient way that he does, That is the action that I would encourage anyone.

Doris [00:31:49]:
Yeah. That’s perfect because you know, not every step is gonna be the same for every person.

Erin Harrigan [00:31:55]:
That’s right.

Doris [00:31:56]:
That step should be the same for every person.

Erin Harrigan [00:32:00]:
Yeah.

Doris [00:32:00]:
Yeah. It should always be the first first step that we take. And sometimes we just forget. You know? We just, like, try to figure out

Erin Harrigan [00:32:08]:
You know what, Doris? I think in some ways, he made us to forget because it’s so beautiful when we’re reminded, and we come back to him. And he has to remind us because if he didn’t, then we might go, oh, I got everything I need, so why do I need Jesus?

Doris [00:32:25]:
Yeah. Very true. Yeah. And the whole thing about comparison, how it can be unhealthy, but healthy comparison is, well, I tried to do this on my own. But let me look at how it worked out when I instead put my trust in god and followed Yes. What he was calling me to or not calling me to at this moment in time, which is very important to remember. So Yeah. Yeah.

Doris [00:32:51]:
So, I love that. Do you have any, like, maybe last words or maybe something that you’ve experienced in your life that you might wanna share before, you share how the listener can connect with you?

Erin Harrigan [00:33:04]:
Yeah. So at the end of every one of my podcasts, and and I say this a lot, that god made you ambitious, but he didn’t make you to do it the world’s way, or he didn’t make you to do business as usual. Whatever role you’re in, he didn’t make you to do it, a, without him and b, the way that the unbelieving world would tell you to do it. When I say God made you ambitious, for some women, that that seems a little too much. Well, I’m not ambitious. I don’t consider myself ambitious. You know the roles in your life that are so important to you that you have such passion for. And that’s what I mean that he made that made you that way, but he didn’t made you make you to go about it the way the rest of the world does.

Erin Harrigan [00:33:51]:
And if you take nothing else away, if that kind of stops you today and then then leads you to say, you know what? Let me go seek the Lord and understand what those areas are and how he wants me to operate in them. That that will move forward whatever whatever work or role you’re in, in such a glorious kingdom way.

Doris [00:34:16]:
Yeah. Beautiful. So refreshing too. You know? It’s, like, good for our souls. It

Erin Harrigan [00:34:24]:
is. It’s soul care. That’s right.

Doris [00:34:27]:
It’s really good. So and I I loved our conversation today. I think it it just so encouraging, and and I know someone listening right now really needed to hear this today. And it wasn’t by any accident that they heard it today on this particular day because they can listen to this any day.

Erin Harrigan [00:34:47]:
You know?

Doris [00:34:48]:
That’s right. Amen. That they really, really needed today as we trust that God has prepared hearts, you know, who will listen to this message. So, I would love if you would share how the listener can connect with you and continue this and find out more about what you’re able to do, to help them and to encourage them.

Erin Harrigan [00:35:10]:
Yeah. So go to my website. It’s aaronharrigan.com. You can get to know what I do and my story and find my books and my podcast and everything right there in that hub. If you are on social media, I’m mostly on LinkedIn Mhmm. Just as my first and last name, and on Instagram as Erin d Harrigan. But I’d love to hear from you. Tell me how this resonated with you and how I can pray for you.

Doris [00:35:37]:
Yes. That is amazing. So, friend, if you’re listening today, please reach out to Erin and check out her website, and I will have the links in the show notes for you so you can connect with her. And this has been such a blessing today, and I know that, you know, God puts people together and, you know, at certain times or as, you know, in Esther, it says at such a time as this. And it is important for kingdom work, especially in the culture. I know culture has always been a difficult thing, but right now, it just seems like there’s so many multiple challenges in our culture today that even you know, I mean, weren’t there just even a few years ago. So it is so important for us to be able to know who we are in Christ and children of light. So, friend, again, I just thank you for listening today.

Doris [00:36:33]:
And, Erin, thank you so much for being on the show. It’s been really a pleasure to have you on today. Thank you. It’s my honor. Awesome. And I hope to have you back on again because that would be that would be great. So, friend, thank you so much again for listening, and I hope you’ll join me next time when I talk with another guest who’s taking action where their passion, compassion, and conviction intersect. Until then, friends, have a blessed week, and I’ll talk to you soon.

Welcome to another episode of Fierce Calling! Today, host Doris Swift sits down with the inspiring Stephanie Alton—literary agent, marketing expert, wife, and mom, who shares how profound moments happen when we listen to God. Stephanie encourages us with her remarkable journey, including unexpected steps and small beginnings that God used to lead her right where she’s meant to be. Through stories of divine timing, open doors, and the willingness to say “yes,” Stephanie offers practical advice, reminding us that every big dream starts with small, faithful steps.

Whether you’re looking to step into your calling, start writing, or need encouragement in a difficult season, this conversation will remind you that God’s purpose unfolds in ways we never expect. So grab your coffee or tea, get comfortable, and get ready to be inspired by the story of how ordinary obedience can lead to extraordinary impact.

00:00 “Surrender Your Joy Stealers”

05:18 “Divine Path to Literary Agent”

10:57 Embracing Opportunities in Publishing

12:15 “Journey to Becoming a Gatekeeper”

18:33 Undeniable Divine Intervention

20:31 Milestone Moments of Faith

23:05 Understanding Audiences and Unique Voices

29:16 “Building Your Writing Platform”

32:21 Steps Lead to Big Opportunities

35:46 “Know Your Audience’s Expectations”

40:50 Parenting Reflections and Growth

41:53 Cherishing Motherhood and Personal Timing

45:51 Join Our Book Pod Network

49:07 Blessings and Goodbye for Now

You can connect with Stephanie through The Book Pod Review and Interview Network Facebook group, as she mentioned in the show! You can also find out more about her and which conferences she’ll be attending at theblythedanielagency.com, which is in the process of being updated soon.

Stephanie Alton is a wife, mom, literary agent, and marketing expert.

Check out Surrender the Joy Stealers: Rediscover the Jesus Joy in You 6-week Bible study rooted in John 15. You can find more info at https://dorisswift.com/book/

Find my free resources including Fear Fighting Bible Verses, Simple Tips for Sharing Your Faith, Surrender the Joy Stealers, Step Out of Your Doubt and Into Your Calling ebook, and more on my dorisswift.com homepage!

Did you know that following, rating, and leaving a review over at Podchaser or Apple Podcasts helps others discover the show too? I would so appreciate it, friend!

Check out my speaking page, grab my flyer, and let’s talk about me speaking at your next women’s event…

I hope this episode encouraged, inspired, and challenged you to cultivate community, live and walk in the value and worth God gave you, and take action where your passion, compassion, and conviction intersect.

If you’re looking for a speaker for your next women’s conference, retreat, luncheon, or workshop, reach out and connect with me on my speaker page at https://www.womenspeakers.com/florida/edgewater/speaker/doris-swift

Let’s have a chat about your next event!

Stay tuned for more amazing content and remember to check the show notes for all the links mentioned.

Thank you for being a part of our community. We are grateful for your continued support and encourage you to embrace the unique gifts that make you magnificently you.

I hope you’ll join me next time when I talk with another woman who is taking action where her passion, compassion, and conviction intersect …

Until then friend, have a blessed week, and I’ll talk to you soon.

With love and joy,

Doris

P.S. Don’t forget to follow us on social media for bite-sized wisdom and inspiration from Doris and our incredible guests! 📲

Doris [00:01:53]:
What is threatening to steal your joy? What is it that feels so heavy right now that you could barely stand? God has a plan, and his plan is to surrender it. Surrender it to him. It might be a prodigal. It might be a relationship, a marriage, something with your job. So many things. We have so many amazing blessings, but there are so many things in our life that threaten to steal our joy. I’m Dora Swift, author of the award winning six week bible study, Surrender the Joy Stealers Rediscover the Jesus Joy in You, And it helps women rediscover the overflowing, ever present Jesus joy within that fills, empowers, and ripens the fruit that God produces in our lives. Using personal and biblical stories, I share how you can identify your joy stealers, surrender them to God, reawaken the joy within, and share the joy with others.

Doris [00:02:56]:
You can do it on your own or with a group. Check it out, friends. Surrender the Joy Stealers. Rediscover the Jesus joy in you. It’s available on all the online retailers. It’s time to take your joy back. Welcome back to the show. Today, I’m excited to introduce to you my friend, Stephanie Alton.

Doris [00:03:17]:
She is an amazing literary agent and a marketing agent. She’s a mom, a wife, and a million other things that she does. She’s a a busy gal, and she is with the Blythe Daniel agency, which is my literary agency. So, of course, I love them so much. And we’ve connected over the years in a lot of different ways. I used to be a blogger in their blog, network and just kind of connected at conferences. And Stephanie has an amazing story that she wants to share with us. So welcome to this show today.

Doris [00:03:53]:
It’s so great to have you, Stephanie.

Stephanie Alton [00:03:55]:
Thanks for having me, Doris. I love getting to see you, and thank you so much for having me.

Doris [00:04:00]:
Thank you. I I appreciate you being on. And we actually tried this once before, but we kind of chatted all the way through, and

Stephanie Alton [00:04:06]:
we never actually recorded.

Doris [00:04:07]:
But that was fun, and I enjoyed it. And it was meant to be for that day. You know, sometimes we make plans. You know, God directs our steps, and that was what what was meant to happen that day. So this was meant to happen on this day. So I would love it. So I just you know, how he moves in our lives and everything. And and so I would just love if you would share a little bit about your story and how you’re taking action where your passion, compassion, and conviction intersect.

Stephanie Alton [00:04:35]:
Okay. Well, to touch back to what you were saying the last time we tried to connect, I think, a while ago, today, I was sitting there thinking I was like, oh, no. Not again. This time, it’s gonna be tech issues or something. And so I was thinking, there’s probably gotta be something really good that’s gonna come out of our conversation today. The last time we tried, we just went way off course and chatted all of our time away. And then this time, I’m like, I’m probably well into my appointment time, and I still cannot get in there. So, I’m just gonna believe that our time today is anointed and meant to be something important.

Stephanie Alton [00:05:18]:
But, I think the most relatable way that I could share that god has moved through my life is how I became a literary agent. And I think it even started when I felt the calling to become a writer. But I’ll I’ll I’ll fast forward through that part and then get to the good another good part because there’s two really divine interactions that I’ve had with writing specific, but this one led me to my job. And I had met Blythe, Blythe Daniel of the Blythe Daniel agency, at a writer’s conference and, pitched her my project. It was my first writer’s conference, and I made every single rookie mistake you can make. So if anyone’s thinking about writing, you’re you’re in good company, and I come with a humble heart. I have made all the mistakes. And I still make mistakes now, so, there’s that too.

Stephanie Alton [00:06:23]:
I met her. I connected with her. It was, like, right when Facebook was, like, the ultimate thing. It was so cool. And if somebody was your accepted your friend request, it was even cooler. So, after the conference well, she had told me no on my projects politely. She’s like, well, do some work on it and then send it back to me in, like, six months. And I was like, yes.

Stephanie Alton [00:06:46]:
I didn’t get a direct no. So, I took that with, like, a little bit of a dose of excitement. And, I friended her, and she accepted. And I was like, major win. And then, I just kept an eye on her because she would share about different conferences she was going to or little events that she would do in Colorado Springs where where she lives. And, I had fam I still have family there. So I always kinda, like, was watching to see if when I was going to Colorado, if she was doing something, and she always had so much interaction. Like, so many people would respond to anything she posted.

Stephanie Alton [00:07:32]:
And, again, this was years ago over ten years ago when Facebook was, like, so so cool. And one time, she posted that she needed she wanted somebody to review a movie for her, and I thought for sure there would already be, like, dozens of people saying, I’ll do it. I’ll do it. But there was no one there, and it the post had been up for a couple of hours. And so I sheepishly raised my hand and say, I’ll do it. I’ll do it. Thinking she was gonna reply with, no. You you don’t have enough email subscribers or a big enough platform or this, that, and the other.

Stephanie Alton [00:08:08]:
But she said yes. And she not only sent me one movie to review, she sent me two. And so I thought, oh, man. I’ve gotta get this done right away. Like, it’s top priority. And so I I watched the movie and took a bunch of notes, and I I did the review, and I sent it to her. And we were just corresponding about you know, she was like, so have you been working on your project and this, that, and the other. And during this season of communicating with Blythe, we had recently moved to Colorado Springs to be near my husband’s family.

Stephanie Alton [00:08:43]:
And we were living in my sister in law’s basement. It was finished. It’s nice. It’s beautiful and everything, but it’s still basement of your sister-in-law. Mhmm. So, the job that my husband had was paying him probably about 25% of what he was promised, which was a significant sting. We were basically living for free and could not get by. So, I had I had this calling with writing, and I’ve been blogging and doing these different things.

Stephanie Alton [00:09:18]:
And one afternoon, evening time frame, I just I left my bedroom. I was walking out. I just finished doing some writing, and I was like, alright, god. You want me to do this stupid writing thing? I need to get paid for it. And I was thinking I was gonna get an article that I had never written, and it was just gonna happen or something. I don’t know what I was thinking, but I was like, I need to get paid for this. It’s taking too much time, and I need some money. And so I just left the room with my sassy little attitude and went on with the evening, probably cooking dinner and getting my littles in bed and stuff like that.

Stephanie Alton [00:10:00]:
And so the next morning, as my alarm went off, I popped open my email because I had been getting I’ve been in communication with Blythe, and she’d been sending them early in the morning because she’s an early bird. And I was looking to see if there was anything there, and there was. And she was like, this is probably gonna sound so strange, but I feel like God is asking or telling me to ask you to come and work with me, and I about dropped the phone. I was like, nuh-uh. No way. And she was like, I really would love for you to come and help launch this blog network that I want to put together. And she’s like, if this is just too weird or whatever and and you don’t wanna do something like that, I I would still love for you to be a part of it and do reviews and stuff like that. And I was like, I had to, you know, put the phone down, go on with my morning, and keep my cool, and make it look like I wasn’t gonna say yes, like, instantly.

Stephanie Alton [00:10:57]:
Get I had to, like, you know, leave a little bit of time in there. And so, I was like, yes. I would love to do that. And, from there, I I did go on and start helping her with mailing books for publicity campaigns that she was doing and coordinating the blog network and doing, just basic communication, keeping track of things. And then as that got got into a really good rhythm and had a good sense of things, I just started saying yes to anything she was asking me to do, and it evolved into me going with her to writer’s conferences and and seeing from the professional side of things how things how she would respond to pitches and brainstorming with people on the fly. And, it I just really came alive in that. I I just I could hear what people were trying to say, and I would be able to pull that out of them and help them turn it into a message of some degree. And whether it was, like, book worthy or article worthy or something, it it was still being able to hear what people were saying and turn it into something else.

Stephanie Alton [00:12:15]:
And so, from that, I started working more on proposals and then started taking my own pitches and representing my own clients. And then over the last couple of years, I’ve been really over the last year, have been doing publicity campaigns with Blithe as well. So it’s, like, it’s not only been it started so, so small and just little yeses all along the way, and coming up with different ideas and always just interacting with more people and listening to different stories. And, I’ve, in essence, kinda become a gatekeeper of, I I guess that’s what people call publishers and agents and, people on the publishing side as gatekeepers, like, letting the messages in. And I had this moment a couple of weeks ago at bible study. I was just taking notes, listening, and, I had this thought. I was like, like, I, years ago, would say that I always wanted to reach out and have a good connection with new believers and kinda help lead them to the gate. And I was like, in some degrees, a gatekeeper in my personal life and a gatekeeper in my professional life.

Stephanie Alton [00:13:46]:
And so, like, I’m thinking there’s gotta be something in there about the gate that I need to look into more, but I think that’s the the gist of, like, what where God’s moving professionally for me is just, sending me incredible people like you and others to interact with and work with in different degrees and, just maintain relationships, encourage people, help them amplify their messages, and, I guess, just keep showing up in different ways. So I I think in a nutshell is what I’ve been up to and what I do and how god led me there.

Doris [00:14:32]:
Wow. I love that so much. And first of all, I wanna say that it’s very encouraging that god can still take our sassy little attitudes and do something with it. Right? How many times have we, like, said, god, I can’t do this or what do you know, the the the the. Anyway, god, and, you know, god isn’t really interested in our insecurities. He’s interested in our willingness to go. You know, we see this with Moses and, you know, all the people in the bible that, like, what? Me? I can’t do this. And it’s like, well, of course, you can’t.

Doris [00:15:03]:
I’m gonna help you do this. And through me, you are able to do it. And Right. Sweet story that you, so I feel like too that God moves us where we’re meant to be. So, you know, I’m gonna move here because of my husband’s job, but that didn’t really pan out exactly as we would have thought it was supposed to, you know, living in this beautiful basement, but yet, you know, still struggling financially. And, you know, the whole thing with the open doors, but I love to kind of how you remind us that not to despise the small things as the word says. Yeah. You know, you just started by raising your hand and saying, okay.

Doris [00:15:41]:
You know, and that’s what God’s looking for. Like, you know, send me. Right? So, wow, that is so special.

Stephanie Alton [00:15:48]:
Well, just on a side note, my husband did get another job, and we did get our own house. And we we lived in a beautiful home in Colorado for many years, and then we recently well, it’s gone, like, three years now. We’ve lived in Texas down by the Gulf Of America now. And it it’s been a a lovely location to be in as well. Not as majestic, just majestic in a different way. So, he did go get another job, but, it it was just not what we expected. And it was just such a season of it being not what we expected. And the joke at the time was the weather was so unusual for Colorado.

Stephanie Alton [00:16:30]:
So even the weather was unexpected when we went there. So, like, all the small talk things were unexpected. So, yeah, I I and I see that now. Like, even in different events and ministry things. I think people are always waiting for someone to sheepishly face their hands and say, I’ll do it, even though that you have, like, this massive gut wrenching fear of uncertainty or feeling unworthy or not equipped or trained or whatever. So it’s I just I have an unusual background for publishing. I have an unusual story for publishing. Mhmm.

Stephanie Alton [00:17:17]:
I’ve done all the things wrong. I’ve done a lot of things right, but I I’ve I’ve done some things wrong. So

Doris [00:17:25]:
Yeah.

Stephanie Alton [00:17:26]:
It it’s owning your mistakes and adapting and moving forward. So

Doris [00:17:32]:
Yes. And learning. Yeah. And everything that we do wrong, we learn from. So I think we learn more from what we do wrong than what we do right, you know, I think in a in a way. Yeah. And and and to how it’s amazing how God equipped you along the way. Because sometimes women and some of our listeners might discount themselves as being able to do something because they haven’t gone to college for it specifically or they haven’t had any background or experience.

Doris [00:18:01]:
And God, you know, he is a God of on the job training. Would you say that, Stephanie? Right.

Stephanie Alton [00:18:07]:
Absolutely. Absolutely. I’m I’m living proof of that. I’ve always had a fascination with writing and have had some skill in that area. So it’s not a totally far stretched. It’s just, like, unbelievable that, like, something you dreamed of as a child comes to fruition. Mhmm. And it wasn’t necessarily in my own power.

Stephanie Alton [00:18:33]:
It was something that God ordained. And I I can’t deny that. It’s just so undeniable. There’s no way that Blythe had any idea that any of that was going on. There is no possible way that she knew that I prayed that prayer. Nor in that tone, there is no possible way I would have known what she was thinking on the other end. I mean, even if even if you looked back through the email records or whatever, there was no indication of what I was going through or thinking or wishing for and praying for, and there was no indication of what Blythe was needing on her side or what she was thinking about doing. That was just ultimately divine intervention.

Doris [00:19:24]:
Yeah. And and I just love how over and over and time and time again these things happen, and it’s there is no possible way it could be anything else but God. And like you said, she didn’t have any idea what was actually going on, but it didn’t matter about the details. It just matters about being obedient and saying, you know, and how she was like, I really feel like God is telling me to do this, and she did it. Yeah. And so

Stephanie Alton [00:19:50]:
Yeah. Yeah. That’s So we both had that sheepishly raising our hand thing. Like, she was like, this could be really weird. I understand if you don’t want to. And I was like, oh, we’ve got a movie. So, like, had, you know, neither one of us taken those unsure steps forward, we wouldn’t be where we are today. And so, that is one time I’m so grateful I I listened.

Stephanie Alton [00:20:16]:
I mean, not that, like, every other time that I’ve listened has it been rewarding to some degree, but I I feel like that is one of the most profound times that I listened and then something life changing came from it.

Doris [00:20:31]:
Yes. It’s powerful how we have these kind of milestone moments in our lives where we can pinpoint and we just don’t forget it. You know, it’s just something that we can always look back and see God’s faithfulness and, you know, how he actually sees us right where we are. You know, that he does know us personally, that he does see us, and that he does care about our situation and, you know, how he steps right in. And sometimes things happen quickly, like your experience with what? Like, you had just prayed that. I had a similar experience with her. And so she is just an amazing woman of God, and it’s just for her too that she was open to listening to what he had to, you know, tell her and to just step out like you said, and just that you both stepped out in faith and did this. And look what has come from it, the fruit that has come.

Doris [00:21:21]:
Because through you, Stephanie, I mean, you have all so many different clients. I know that you’ll send me you’ll send me pitches, for your clients about, you know, being on the show. And I’m always like, oh, yeah. That sounds like a great fit. And you just have this, like, natural instinct that God has given you to know what is a good idea or what is a good message. So when someone brings you a book proposal, it may not always look like what they think it should look like, but you pull things out of it. So what has been, like, some of your experience with that? How you can pull stories out and help them develop it? And like you said, help them with developing a message that they might not maybe it was a different direction that they even thought they were going.

Stephanie Alton [00:22:07]:
Well, this is probably another odd connection to that. But, naturally, I’m a person who likes to, like, sit in the back of the room so I could slip in unnoticed and leave without notice. But I think it’s because I’m always trying to read people. I’m looking at how the room’s responding. I’m looking at I’m just I’m I’m an analyzer of people, and I think I’ve always grown up that way. I’ve always just, like, walked in and read the room some, and, like, always been very aware of tone and messages and and stuff like that to some degree. And I just found that it it translated into, people’s writing. And sometimes when I meet with people one on one, I can do better listening and hearing what they’re trying to say sometimes better than what I can on paper.

Stephanie Alton [00:23:05]:
And sometimes I’ll see something really good on paper and wanna talk to someone. And I think it’s so that I can get that barrier down on them and then really hear it from them and get a good sense of who their audience is and who comes to them for what. You know, like, what is it that people are coming to them for? And I know I’m not the only agent that looks for that, but I just try to hear what somebody’s trying to say and get a sense of who their audience is to make sure that there’s a match. And then the third element would be is, like, how are they saying this differently than what than how it’s already been said? What are they doing different? And so I think it’s it’s a combination of, like, reading people, looking at their message, looking at their audience, looking at what’s already been done. And then I I think I’m always playing a little bit of a matchmaker. I’m thinking back, okay. Who told me they’re looking for what? Like and sometimes it’s a podcaster or, knowing who likes what. And then sometimes it’s a recent call with an editor or, somebody else.

Stephanie Alton [00:24:17]:
Maybe I know somebody looking for an article or a guest post or something on that topic, and then it’s like my brain’s like, oh, squirrel. This person needed this, and this person has this. Let’s see if we can do some matchmaking here. And so I think my brain always has, like, 37 tabs open or more, and it’s, like, running through all these different things. And then somehow AI is going on in there. And it’s like matchmaker. Matchmaker. Let’s connect them.

Stephanie Alton [00:24:45]:
And so I don’t know. There is no good way. There’s probably, like, a better formula for this, but just with the odd way my brain works and what I do. I I that seems to be my sign the the science behind what I do. Mhmm. And then, of course, there is you know, I’ve I’ve got to factor in who I’m already working with. So if I have a project similar to something that’s being presented to me, I I look at the person and I’m like, is everything they’re gonna turn out gonna be very similar to what I already have, or do I even know anybody who would take this on for anything? And so some of that also gets factored into it too. So there there’s no, like, straightforward answer on that, but that’s kinda how I get there.

Doris [00:25:38]:
Yeah. I love it. It reminds me of, you know, when you’re young and you play the memory game with the cards on the table, and they’re all kinda face down, so we really don’t know what’s under you know, what what the card is. And then you kinda flip them and go, oh, wait. I remember this card is over here in the right top corner.

Stephanie Alton [00:25:56]:
I’m really good at that game. Yeah.

Doris [00:25:58]:
I imagine.

Stephanie Alton [00:25:59]:
That’s interesting that you said that because I’m pretty good at that game. Yeah. And, whenever I would play, my boys had a game like that, I think, for car, when the movie Cars came out Mhmm. With Lightning McQueen and Mater. They had a little game set with all the little cars in there, and I would always win. But then I was like this I can’t I can’t be that kind of mom and just always,

Doris [00:26:23]:
you know, like, not

Stephanie Alton [00:26:24]:
let my kids win. So I I would try to help them too. So it felt like I was winning all the way around. Interesting that you say that. Like, connection point. I’ve always been good at that game.

Doris [00:26:34]:
Yes. Isn’t that funny? Because if we look back, you know, and those of us who can look back, you know, on our life and see, like, where has God actually really equipped us? Like, that we might not connect the dots when we think, oh, we’re not equipped or we can’t do that. But there are certain skill sets and certain gifts that he’s given us, you know, talents that we develop. I mean, there’s certain things that we wanna do, but we just really can’t, it’s not like our calling. It’s not really what we’re wired to do. So we can try and we can try and we can pray and God can help us do it, but it’s not maybe our wheelhouse. And when we find that sweet spot, it’s, like, so amazing. So what would you share with someone listening today who has thought, you know, I really would love to write, and I just don’t know where to start.

Doris [00:27:26]:
What what advice would you give someone listening today? Because this this I can’t say that. Statistically, someone listening today or several listening today will have thought about that. So what would you say, Stephanie?

Stephanie Alton [00:27:40]:
So if I was looking back to when I started out and things that I would do differently and then add that to what I I look for in a writer, I would honestly say some of the best ways to get started is by writing articles and setting up some sort of newsletter. I I say that because platform is a big piece of publishing. So if you want to pursue publishing, it’s really important to know what your message is and who your audience is. And some of the best ways to discover that is through consistent communication with a group of people, and it will start small and it will grow slow until you figure it out, and then something will click and then it will go much faster. And then the reason I suggest writing articles is because it will help you learn how to fit into guidelines. Each publishing plate, like magazine, local newspapers, Those are great places to start. Those local ones start small and build that relationship with them. Keep showing up for them because they’re gonna teach you how to meet deadlines, fit into a certain word count, and be able to learn how to take feedback.

Stephanie Alton [00:29:16]:
And they’re giving you feedback not to hurt your feelings. You get feedback to help you be a better writer and to fit into what they need. And so, that will also start building your platform as well. So you’ll have all those articles under your belt, and you’ll have a consistently growing newsletter under your belt. And if you think about it, you’re gonna spend all this time writing a book and getting it published, and you may not sell as many copies as you hope for, but you may reach more people with those articles that you’re sending out or those newsletters that you’re sending out because eventually, you’re gonna get to an outlet that distributes to thousands of people, and your message that day is gonna reach thousands of people. And who knows? Maybe one day your email newsletter list, email subscribers, we’re hoping for those to be in the thousands. And so over time, this message that you have within you is reaching so many people through these ways that are gonna help you get a book deal, but you’re you’re feeding people all this time and you’re learning your skill, you’re honing your craft, you’re defining your message and getting an understanding of how you can offer what’s in your heart to people in a way that they’ll receive it. So that I think for a beginner would be two of the best ways to start it.

Stephanie Alton [00:31:00]:
The rookie way to do it is to never publish anything, to attempt a book proposal, write this big book, and then it fits nothing. And then you feel devastated when you go try to take it to an agent, and they’re like, no. I’m sorry. And it’s not because they want to crush your dreams or your spirit or anything like that. It’s because the writing doesn’t fit into industry standards. And when they look at your platform, they see that it’s gonna be a challenge to sell a lot of books until you really get an understanding of how some of that works. And so starting small will help you grow bigger down the road.

Doris [00:31:45]:
Thank you. Such great advice. And, you know, how you talked about it helps kind of train you for learning how to write and, like you said, meeting deadlines and word counts and and actually honing in on the craft of writing because it’s a craft. And you can continually learn and grow in it. There’s opportunities for, you know, conferences. You know, if if someone is interested in meeting Stephanie, they can check out where she’s gonna be in different conferences for writers. It’s so important to attend those. But like Stephanie said, start small.

Doris [00:32:21]:
And I think that’s one of the themes that is coming out in this episode, and I think it’s gonna encourage a lot of people because we always wanna jump to the big step when we’re waiting. But the small steps add up to big steps, and we’re Yeah. Been entrusted, you know, with with, with gifts and things. And and God has even I mean, we have stories to tell. We all have a story, and we’ve been entrusted with with it. So, but I love that you have encouraged to write articles. And there there are so many publications that look for it. Where would you say, like, Publishers Weekly, or where is a good place that people can go and find opportunities? I mean, they just kinda come out on social media a lot of times too.

Stephanie Alton [00:33:09]:
Right. Yeah. It depends on your friend group on that too. I see a lot of opportunities through there, but that’s probably my friend connection being in the publishing industry. So I may see a little bit more of that than, others. I honestly think if it’s somebody just starting out or looking somebody looking to add something to their list, I would take a serious look at your free newspaper, the one that you find in the restaurants, the one that, may still get delivered for free, Whatever your local version of that is called, scope them out. See what kind of articles. Do a little bit of research and see what they talk about in those local papers.

Stephanie Alton [00:34:01]:
Mhmm. Because they’re always looking for somebody, and a lot of them will pay you, like, 13¢ a word, 12¢ a word, I think. And, usually, it would be a 500 to 2,000 word article. So it’s not a significant amount of money, but it it’s something. But don’t discard the free ones. Go with the free places. Guest blog on somebody’s site. Sometimes that’s a little more relaxed than a publication, but those local outlets are one of the best places to start.

Stephanie Alton [00:34:35]:
And your first article may not get picked up, but keep trying. If they give you any feedback, apply it to your next article or make a revision to that article and send it back to them if they will allow that. And I think searching through Google or whatever search drive you use, you’ll be able to pull up their their website or you may already know what their website is because it would be on that paper, and then look for the editor and submission guidelines and follow those directions. Mhmm. Because that will go a long way when you can submit something that they’re looking for. And I think something Blythe has taught me is that when we’re sending proposals to editors Mhmm. Our clients will sometimes be frustrated with us because we do so much back and forth before we will send it to an editor for consideration is we try to make the editor’s job as easy as possible. We wanna make sure that they have everything they need.

Stephanie Alton [00:35:46]:
Anything we can think of that they would think of, we wanna include that information. We wanna make sure that the writing is in their style. We we do a lot of thoughtful action steps to make sure that the editor’s job is as easy as possible to take the project and move on with it without having to do a whole lot of, work. And so if you go into submitting your article with that kind of mindset, making sure that your article is gonna need the least amount of revisions or the least amount of edits, and it fits the word count and their style and all their guidelines, you’re gonna make their job easier. And then the next time your article lands in their inbox, they’re gonna be like, yes. Let’s see what they’ve got going on even if it cuts in line of others because they know you’re gonna do a good job. So it’s hard to do a good job if you don’t know what they’re looking for. So take that time to make sure you figure out what it is that they’re looking for and then give it to them.

Doris [00:36:50]:
Yeah. Give it to them. That’s right. Yeah. That’s awesome. Yeah. And and two because there’s so many times that it’s so frustrating that maybe writers will submit something, and they have not read the submission guidelines. And so right away, it’s like, boop.

Doris [00:37:06]:
You know, it’s out. So to do your due diligence. But I love how you recommend looking for the free newspapers and the places that you can write. And even if you do it for free at first, and eventually, you might find, you know, that there’s places that will pay you for it. But also, it’s, you know, it’s building your literary resume and your building experience, which is which is really cool. And, you know, that’s what agents, and publishers look for as well. But, you know, there’s a lot of even secular publications that have a faith section, you know, something that they concentrate on, something faith based, you know, if they wanna promote something going on, like maybe churches in their area and things like that. So so, yeah, there’s so many opportunities.

Doris [00:37:50]:
And, yeah, this has been just such an enjoyable conversation. And I know that the listener has been encouraged because it really can apply to a lot of other areas in our life, not just writing and publishing. It, you know, just starting small. Starting small, stepping out in faith and obedience, and just trusting God to see what he does. Sometimes it’s like, next day happens where he answers a prayer, and sometimes it takes a little bit of a waiting. But I think you’ve shared just an incredible story of how God can really move when we pray and ask for that. So thank you. Is there anything else that you might want to share before we we close, something encouraging that you can say that, you know, might just be an impactful statement or something for somebody that’s listening right now?

Stephanie Alton [00:38:45]:
I would pay attention to what God is telling you because sometimes he tells you the same thing multiple times, and we ignore it. And oftentimes, some of the biggest blessings are in what it is that he’s telling you to do. Even if it feels a little bit uncomfortable, you have a thousand reasons to talk yourself out of it. It’s probably the thing that you’re gonna thrive the most in, especially if you’ve got that message multiple times. Like, I think there’s times we get a nudge and we just, move past it, and we don’t ever hear from God on it again. It’s the times when he is, like, nudging you multiple times. It’s like, okay. Let me let me consider it a little more.

Stephanie Alton [00:39:39]:
Let me take our first step and then and go into it. So, whatever it may be, whether it’s starting a new business or adding a a member to your family or doing something completely different than what you’ve done now, like, that will lead you in the right direction. We just have to be open to doing that and taking that first step.

Doris [00:40:07]:
Yes. That is so encouraging. And I know that someone listening today is it’s something that they really needed to hear. Because sometimes life can be so hard, and we just don’t see what’s happening. Like, there’s nothing happening and or maybe they just don’t have it feel like they have any direction, you know, what is my next step? And and we shouldn’t be anxious about anything as the word says, and to be anxious about what our next step is. But I love that advice you just gave. Be open and just pay attention to what God is telling you and how he’ll repeat it over and over in different ways through different people. And, you know, sometimes he just wants to hit us over the head with, oh, hello.

Stephanie Alton [00:40:50]:
Right. Right. Well and, you know, something I one last thing is, like, I think back to when my my boys were babies, and I just I loved absolutely loved being home with them and doing things with them. But I also felt a little bit disconnected from the world, which I was because I was in my home in rural Missouri, and there wasn’t a lot around me. And so, like, I felt a little bit lost to some degree. But all those times playing memory with my kids and doing different things, it wasn’t lost. It it’s being used in other ways and paying attention to what my children need maybe helped me pay attention to what others need now. And so, like, all of those things where we’re obedient in a season, even though we feel like, oh, this this isn’t all that I can be, but and maybe that’s the case, but it’s not all that you’re meant to be right now.

Stephanie Alton [00:41:53]:
And so, like, the time, I am so glad that I didn’t rush through anything with my kids because I never would have I’ll never be able to get that time back. And I think now as they’re much older, I would really feel lost if I would have thrown that time with them out the window and done for tried to force something else. And, so I’m glad that I was obedient and, enjoyed that blessing of being able to stay home with my kids because I know that’s something that not everybody gets to do. But as they’ve gotten older, my opportunities have expanded, and it it I don’t think that’s a coincidence. I think that’s God’s hand keeping me where I need to be and opening doors as they’re supposed to, but it also kinda coincides as I get freedom from my home responsibilities too. And I I see that there are so many other agents doing so much more than I’m doing and have way more clients than I have and do a million other things that I do. And I I just I think a couple years ago had a major moment, and it’s like, it’s not my time yet. Like, I am doing what I’m supposed to be.

Stephanie Alton [00:43:15]:
I’m my number one job is making sure that my boys turn out okay. And then I I’m also doing something that I very much enjoy, which is in publishing. And so it’s just that that it’s not really a balance. It’s juggling. But I I know that when my season of being a hands on mama is is done, then maybe I’ll be even more hands on with more clients and stuff. So I’ve just had to learn to say no to some things so that I can say yes to the right things. And sometimes my yeses are a little more leaning towards home life than professional life, and that that is just where I’m at right now. And I’m okay with that because I I don’t regret the time I’ve given to my family.

Doris [00:44:07]:
Yeah. Wow. That’s golden right there. Because how you kind of talked about that the the skills and the way that you parented and still parent your child, your children, your boys, your boy mom, it can actually be applicable to other things in your life, and it actually enhances your skills and things that you could do like listening and finding out what needs are and that kind of thing. And and the fact being that we we have different seasons in our life, but it doesn’t necessarily mean that seasons can’t overlap too, you know. Right. And so it’s kind of like Florida. I live in Florida, and, like, one day it could be, like, 30 degrees, and the next day it could be 80 degrees.

Doris [00:44:49]:
So it, like, it’s like winter and summer overlapping or something, or spring or whatever, and it’s not necessarily a cut and dry thing. So that’s really great because, there might be someone listening right now that feels like I am not walking in my purpose. But open your eyes, and as Stephanie has encouraged us to do, see where we are right at the moment and just live in that moment and just do, like, one step at a time. And God opens the doors in the right season and not to fall into the comparison trap because that Right. Yeah. You just covered that. So that’s such an important reminder that we’re all on different, roads, but all of our roads ultimately lead to Jesus, for our heart to, you know, share and, you know, whether it’s being, you know, a mom at home or out in the workforce or whatever we do that we glorify God and just share Jesus with the world and the love of of grace. So well, thank you so much for being on, and I would love if you would share how can the listener connect with you.

Stephanie Alton [00:45:51]:
Well, if you’re a writer, we do have a blog network. Well, it’s evolved into a blog and podcaster network called the Book Pod. So we do have a Facebook group that we’re in when we have opportunities open up, and we’ll send the only emails we send from there when we have opportunities available. So I would love to connect with you there. If you’ve ever had an interest in reviewing new release books or if you’re a podcaster looking for guests, we would love to have you, in our community and be part of that. I also go to play two, maybe three conferences a year, and that’s where I’m in the boat of I can’t do too much. And so I kinda keep it, to a few. I am sometimes on social media.

Stephanie Alton [00:46:53]:
If you remember, I am naturally in the back of the room, so I don’t generally put a lot out on social media. I just am a total hypocrite on that because because it’s such a key piece for, influencers to have, a presence there. And I just I’ve had a really hard time knowing, like, some of the hardships that some of the people in my feet are going through. And then we only tend to post the highlight reels, and I feel like it’s such a rub and then I’ve just had a significant internal conflict.

Doris [00:47:30]:
Mhmm.

Stephanie Alton [00:47:31]:
And I’ve done nothing. And so that’s probably I know it’s something I have to work on, but, so I am on Instagram sometimes.

Doris [00:47:40]:
Okay. Well, thank you for being honest about that because I think a lot of us feel that same way. And there’s times where we we post and not post or whatever. And so I I thank you so much for just being humble about that and to really share your heart on that. And so great. Well, thank you so much for being on the show. And if you are listening today, we are so thankful that you were here. And we know that God had something for you in this episode that you were meant to hear today.

Doris [00:48:06]:
And I’ll have all the links in the show notes and the information that we talked about. And, Stephanie, I hope to have you back on the show sometime.

Stephanie Alton [00:48:15]:
I’d love that. Maybe I’ll come back when you celebrate 300 episodes.

Doris [00:48:19]:
Awesome. Yeah.

Stephanie Alton [00:48:20]:
Yeah. Because you just had you just had your two hundredth episode or released your two hundredth episode. You’re probably well into the two hundreds now. So

Doris [00:48:30]:
Yeah.

Stephanie Alton [00:48:30]:
Come back and celebrate with you.

Doris [00:48:33]:
That sounds amazing and prophetic, no haha. Now I guess I’m gonna do 300 then. Yes. You are. Yes.

Stephanie Alton [00:48:39]:
You are. Okay. I believe it.

Doris [00:48:40]:
Thank you. Thank you so much. Alright, friends. Well, thank you so much again for joining us today on Fierce Calling, and we hope that, you know, this really blessed you. And if it did, we would love if you would share it. And, yeah, and if you would rate and review Fierce Calling, it will help others find the show. And, Stephanie, I look forward to talking with you more and looking forward to also some of the other great guests that you’re gonna send me because it’s just always amazing. And so, Fran, thank you so much.

Doris [00:49:07]:
God bless you, and we will talk soon.

Stephanie Alton [00:49:09]:
You’re welcome. Thank you.

Welcome back to Fierce Calling! In today’s episode, host Doris Swift welcomes back author, coach, and Proverbs 31 Ministries writer Abby McDonald. Abby is here to talk about her brand new book, Surrendering Certainty: Hearing God Today by Letting Go of Tomorrow. With warmth and honesty, Abby opens up about juggling the demands of motherhood, writing, and community, and how God has shifted her focus to finding Him in both the big moments and everyday interruptions.

Together, Doris and Abby dig into what it means to truly surrender our need for control and certainty, and to trust God—especially when life doesn’t go the way we planned. Abby shares insightful stories, biblical wisdom, and practical steps to help you trade fear and frustration for adventurous faith, and to recognize that even life’s distractions can be holy moments of growth and connection with God.

Whether you’re in a season of waiting, feeling weighed down by uncertainty, or looking for encouragement to embrace your calling, this conversation will remind you that you’re not alone. Get ready to be encouraged, challenged, and equipped to rediscover joy and confidence in following God’s lead—one surrendered step at a time.

05:36 Intentional Connections and Community Building

09:32 “Trusting God’s Plan”

13:41 “Surrendering Certainty” Book Endorsement

18:38 Honest Prayer for Clarity

23:07 Chronic Pain and Seeking Comfort

24:06 “Meteor Shower and Divine Assurance”

29:51 “Rejection as a Refining Process”

31:19 Psalm’s Guidance Against Fear

34:49 “Delayed Success is Sweeter”

38:44 Encourage Book Reviews for Abby

You can connect with Abby and find her books, social media links, coaching services, blog, and her 5 Days to Life Unstuck Challenge, and more at abbymcdonald.org

Abby McDonald is a writing coach, speaker, and the author of Surrendering Certainty: Hearing God Today by Letting Go of Tomorrow. and Shift: Changing Our Focus to See the Presence of God. Her mission is to empower women to hear God’s voice in their lives and act on it in faith. Abby writes regularly for Proverb 31 Ministries’ daily devotions team, and her work has been featured in numerous publications. Abby lives with her husband, three children, and black lab in the mountains of western Maryland. Connect with her at abbymcdonald.org.

Check out Surrender the Joy Stealers: Rediscover the Jesus Joy in You 6-week Bible study rooted in John 15. You can find more info at https://dorisswift.com/book/

Find my free resources including Fear Fighting Bible Verses, Simple Tips for Sharing Your Faith, Surrender the Joy Stealers, Step Out of Your Doubt and Into Your Calling ebook, and more on my dorisswift.com homepage!

Did you know that following, rating, and leaving a review over at Podchaser or Apple Podcasts helps others discover the show too? I would so appreciate it, friend!

Check out my speaking page, grab my flyer, and let’s talk about me speaking at your next women’s event…

I hope this episode encouraged, inspired, and challenged you to cultivate community, live and walk in the value and worth God gave you, and take action where your passion, compassion, and conviction intersect.

If you’re looking for a speaker for your next women’s conference, retreat, luncheon, or workshop, reach out and connect with me on my speaker page at https://www.womenspeakers.com/florida/edgewater/speaker/doris-swift

Let’s have a chat about your next event!

Stay tuned for more amazing content and remember to check the show notes for all the links mentioned.

Thank you for being a part of our community. We are grateful for your continued support and encourage you to embrace the unique gifts that make you magnificently you.

I hope you’ll join me next time when I talk with another woman who is taking action where her passion, compassion, and conviction intersect …

Until then friend, have a blessed week, and I’ll talk to you soon.

With love and joy,

Doris

P.S. Don’t forget to follow us on social media for bite-sized wisdom and inspiration from Doris and our incredible guests! 📲

Doris:
What is threatening to steal your joy? What is it that feels so heavy right now that you could barely stand? God has a plan, and his plan is to surrender it. Surrender it to him. It might be a prodigal. It might be a relationship, a marriage, something with your job. So many things. We have so many amazing blessings, but there are so many things in our life that threaten to steal our joy. I’m Dora Swift, author of the award winning six week bible study, Surrender the Joy Stealers Rediscover the Jesus Joy in You, And it helps women rediscover the overflowing, ever present Jesus joy within that fills, empowers, and ripens the fruit that God produces in our lives. Using personal and biblical stories, I share how you can identify your joy stealers, surrender them to God, reawaken the joy within, and share the joy with others.

Doris:
You can do it on your own or with a group. Check it out, friends. Surrender the joy stealers, rediscover the Jesus joy in you. It’s available on all the online retailers. It’s time to take your joy back to the show. Today, I’m excited to welcome back my dear friend, Abby McDonald. We had her on, a time when she had a book came that came out called Shift, and that was amazing. She has a new one coming out called Surrendering Certainty, Hearing God Today by Letting Go of Tomorrow.

Doris:
I was honored to read an advanced copy and endorse this book. It’s fantastic. And we’re gonna talk about that today among many other things, I’m sure. Welcome to the show. It’s great to have you back, Abby.

Abby McDonald:
Thank you, Doris. I’m glad to be here.

Doris:
Thank you. Yeah. This is really exciting for you to have this next book coming out. I know that you’re you’re always working on something. And you’re also you’re you’re an author, you’re a a coach, you’re a mom, and you’re a wife. You have a lot going on, and you’re an editor too. So that’s something that’s, in your wheelhouse that you’ve been doing. So that’s pretty exciting.

Doris:
And I know sometimes people might think, okay. Well, this book comes out here and then this next book comes out. It might be a while in between because it takes a while for books to come out, but it doesn’t mean that God is not moving or doing other things in our life. So we would love to hear, Abby, a little bit about what’s been happening with you and what God’s been doing in and through your life and how you’re currently taking action where your passion, compassion, and conviction intersect.

Abby McDonald:
Absolutely, Doris. Well, a lot of my time is spent with my kids and, getting them from one activity to the next. I have three kids. They are 16, 13, and eight, so they keep me pretty busy with their various activities. Sometimes I just feel like I’m a taxi service getting them from one place to the other, but, my 16 year old is, about to get his driver’s license. He has his permit right now, and so I am gonna be soliciting his health in that area and having him running errands for me. Looking forward to that for sure. But, yeah, I have just the past few years, God has really put a passion in me to really connect in my community, and really focus there.

Abby McDonald:
And, not that I wasn’t connected before, you know, I’ve always had a local church, but, to really just focus more of my efforts and, being intentional, you know, about connecting with people, meeting for coffee, you know, going to a bible study, that sort of thing, and just building those relationships, because I think that online ministry is wonderful, and I I continue to do that. I’m a writer for Proverbs thirty one Ministries, encouragement for today. But I think that where God really moves and where people’s lives are really impacted is in those just everyday moments and in those relationships that we build with the people around us. He’s put us in in the places we are, in the spheres of influence we have for a reason. And I think it’s important for us to realize that and to really, ask him for his guidance and then be intentional about doing where whatever we feel that he’s leading us forward.

Doris:
That you brought that out. That that’s really important to talk about being intentional about, the the people around us, like, right where we are and to see the people. Mhmm. Yeah. I I kind of had that same feeling this past year. It’s kind of been a realization of, you know, we we focus so much on reaching the masses with a message that God has given us, which is so important because even Jesus said, you know, go to the ends of the earth with the gospel. But sometimes we do lose sight, and I kind of called that, like, a farsightedness and versus a nearsightedness, you know, that we we might focus on so many things that are, like, kind of out there versus what’s right in front of us. And so I’m glad that you brought that out.

Doris:
I’m glad because it is it is important.

Abby McDonald:
Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. And, you know, I mean and I hate almost to bring up COVID, but I think that that was part of, you know, what kind of isolated us, you know, and make us, just look more inward, you know, and not necessarily connect to the people around us. And I think it’s taken us a long time to get back to that point, you know, where we’re realizing, I we need people. You know? We need that connection, and it can’t just be online or, you know, on a Zoom call with, well, I love talking to you. You know? It it need we need to have that face to face

Doris:
Yeah.

Abby McDonald:
Interaction. And so, yeah, I feel like God is leading a lot of people toward that realization, you know, that we we need each other.

Doris:
Definitely. And so, you you know, you have a lot of activities going on. Like you said, you’ve got the the kids, and they’re in different, things at school or whatever that you are taking them here and there. Your son’s about to drive, which that is a huge milestone. Right?

Abby McDonald:
For sure. Yeah.

Doris:
Sure. So that keeps you busy, and then you write and you you help other writers. You coach other writers who want to do writing with excellence and encourage them. And so this book, when I read it, it just was something that resonated so much with me because we do tend to wanna know what the next thing’s supposed to be, where we’re supposed to go, you know, all the things. So tell us a little bit about what this new book coming out, Surrendering Certainty, you know, what is it that you want the reader to take away from it, and what is the actual core of the message in the book?

Abby McDonald:
Yeah. Well, the main takeaway I want the reader to to have after reading this book is that we can lay all of our desires and all of our longings to know what’s gonna happen tomorrow on the other side of our obedience, on the other side of our yes to him at Jesus’ feet, and we can know that he is going to lead us, that he is gonna have his loving eye on us, and he’s not gonna forsake us in that. And the reason why we can do that is because he is a perfect God, you know, and He has good plans for what He has called us to do. And, so, the core message that I’m really getting at in the book is that a lot of times when God asks us to do something, you know, and it’s usually, in my experience, it’s a nudge, you know? It’s like a thought that we keep having, you know, that we just can’t escape no matter how often we try to ignore it, you know, or just, like, this burning we feel in our soul, like, you know, I need to do this. But we wanna know, you know, like you said, we wanna know, well, what’s gonna happen? What are people gonna think? Am I gonna be successful? You know, do I have the resources? All of these things. And we end up, in this cycle of of doubt, and we just want more more signs, more affirmation. And this can go on for months or even years, you know, is what I’ve found. And so, the the truth of the matter is that we we can’t know what’s gonna happen tomorrow.

Abby McDonald:
God never promised to tell us that, and, while he I think he does sometimes give us little hints, you know, or he does prepare us for things, he ultimately wants us to trust him. And we we can’t trust him if we’re simultaneously asking him to tell us what’s gonna happen, you know, tomorrow or whether we’re doing that, you know, verbally or just in our head. And so, yeah, the book goes through three things that Jesus, tells the Pharisees in John 10. And what I’m real I’m inviting the reader to make those her foundation instead of this longing to know what’s gonna happen tomorrow. And those truths are my sheep hear my voice, they will come and go and find pasture, and no one will snatch them out of my hand. And so, those are really, I believe, what our hearts truly long for. And when we can really internalize that and believe that, which that that’s the key is believing it, then we can walk forward in confidence, and we can persevere even when things don’t go exactly like we want.

Doris:
Right. Which is a lot of times, you know, when we think about it. You know?

Abby McDonald:
Yeah. Yeah.

Doris:
I love the way that you broke it down, you know, into those main points of the things that we truly do desire. And to be honest, you know, we struggle with, we wanna know what’s gonna happen next. But, honestly, do we really wanna know? Because sometimes if we knew what was gonna happen Yeah. We’d be, like, heading for the hills. You know? Like and, it’s like, I’m sorry.

Abby McDonald:
I’m not on board

Doris:
with this. But, anyway but I would love to read just the, you know, endorsement that I wrote about the book because this was kinda some of my take aways. And I yeah. So I just read in Surrendering Certainty, Abby McDonald helps us discover true contentment in our right now moments through surrendering to god our need for next step certainty. McDonald beautifully weaves engaging personal stories and solid biblical truths through the pages showing us how to release our expectations for the clarity we think we need and embrace the journey of moving forward in faith. Readers will appreciate the simple yet practical steps to walk forward without fear, trade comfort and familiarity with adventurous faith, and consider the possibility that life’s distractions are, as McDonald suggests, holy moments meant to refine us and transform our lives. And I just kinda go on to say I highly recommend, you know, the book and that it’s a message that reminds us our purpose and calling are ultimately rooted in that these life these distractions in our life, sometimes we can get super annoyed about things that distract us or get in our way or kind of like, oh, that wasn’t on my schedule today or that wasn’t part of my plan, but they were actually holy moments. So what kind of, drew you to bring that point out? Because I think that is something that we can all stop and remember, and it would totally change the trajectory of our day, won’t it?

Abby McDonald:
Yeah. Absolutely. Yeah. I mean, I think what what drew me to talk about that, Doris, is my own experience. I mean, I’ve had so many distractions. I mean, we live in a age of distraction. Let’s just be honest. But, sometimes, sometimes those distractions, and I think, you know, more of what that quote is talking about is those things that we perceive as, This is not my plan, you know? This wasn’t part of what I planned, and this isn’t anything other than just a hurdle to keep me from going where I want to go.

Abby McDonald:
But, I mean, god is God is guiding even those distractions, you know, and that what we perceive as a distraction could be something that he placed there to get our attention or, as an opportunity for us to either minister to someone who needs that or to refine us in a way that is gonna help us later, in becoming who he wants us to be. And so which, I mean, who he wants us to be is ultimately more and more like Jesus. And so, I think that how we respond to those moments is just so key, you know, because we can get angry and we can get frustrated and throw up our hands, you know, or we can seek him in the midst of that and just say, you know, god, what is it that you want me to do here? You know, what is it that you’re trying to show me through this so called distraction? And what it can really, like I said, be a holy moment for us. It can be a moment of growth and refinement. And so, yeah, it’s definitely, a process, and I’m, like, no means perfect at it, but I’m learning slowly.

Doris:
I know what you mean because we can look at at distractions as just, like, kind of, like, interruptions, but they if they’re holy moments, they’re holy interruptions. And, you know, maybe that’s what Yeah. We were meant to do. And it kind of reminds me of of your other book that you wrote, which was really cool, and that came out a while ago. But the name of the book is Shift, Changing Our Focus to See the Presence of God, and that book was fantastic. And just kind of it all kinda ties together, changing our perspective, changing, you know, what God is seeing what God is doing in our life versus what we wanna do in our life. And, you know, that things line up with his will and his plan. And and like you said, sometimes, especially when hard things happen, we wanna say, well, I this isn’t part of my story.

Doris:
I don’t want this to be part of my story. I don’t want this to be part of my plan. This can’t possibly be part of your plan for my life, Lord, because this is doesn’t seem good and you’re good. So it kind of it feels like it’s a contradiction. So what would you say to someone that might be struggling with that?

Abby McDonald:
I would say that, first of all, just get get alone with the Lord in in prayer and just be honest with him. I think that a lot of times we just try to put our head down, you know, and we either retreat, you know, or we try to ignore the situation, which that never does any good. But when we just get alone with him and we’re honest with him about what it is that we’re feeling, you know, and we just say, god, whatever it is, you know, I’m frustrated, I’m disappointed, I don’t understand. That can be a moment where god uses that honest confession to, like you said, shift our perspective. And often with those moments, he shows me what he’s already doing, you know. He opens my eyes to the ways he’s already working. Now I’m not saying that happens every single time, but there have definitely been times when he has used that conversation to show me, hey. You know, I’m in this.

Abby McDonald:
I’m moving. I’m working. And while my circumstances may not immediately change, my attitude definitely does. And I can and it’s, I told someone the other day, I was we were talking about a a difficult season I was going through, And, what came out of that was the the comforter can’t comfort us when we don’t need comfort. You know? And that that just really I was like,

Doris:
That’s profound.

Abby McDonald:
But, yeah. I and but it’s true, you know? And most of the time, we just wanna skip over the pain or the struggle or whatever it is, but it’s true. He cannot minister to us and comfort us if we’re just smooth sailing through life. You know? Everything’s good. But when he has that opportunity to just love on us, it just there’s nothing like it.

Doris:
It kind of just even draws us closer because we can see our need. You know, we all we all have that need for a savior. We all have that need. Mhmm. But there are times in our humanness that we might not recognize it as we should until Mhmm. The other shoe drops. And then all of a sudden, like, Jesus, you know, like Peter falling in the water. Jesus, save me.

Doris:
You know? And so, so I love that you brought that out. And also the fact being when we kinda circle back around what you’re talking about community and how important community is. Mhmm. And it you know, when we build relationships, it’s something that we can draw close to God through also, you know. And it it may it may not always be someone that is a believer. I mean, God will lead us to people who don’t know him so we can have faith conversations and share the hope that we have, you know, that, Peter and Peter says, to do that. But also those who do believe and wanna encourage us and pray for us, and we can in turn reciprocate and do that for them as well. And that’s just it’s so important to have a supportive community.

Doris:
And like you said, you know, and there were certain instances, you know, especially around COVID where we might have tended to isolate and not really connected with people physically because we, you know, couldn’t for a while. But what a what a difference in impact now, and it should have really kind of wet our appetite to get back into that and to be with people. And it it’s just very powerful. And I know that your book is gonna be so amazing and and impactful for people to read. Because I know when I read it, I was like, oh, yeah. Me yeah. Me too. I yeah.

Doris:
I do that. And, so I I think trying to know, you know, what god is doing and what he’s wanting to do. And I I think you just really hit it with the title with the word surrender. So, can you think of a time maybe where god has kinda brought you through a situation where it just brought you to having to just do a full surrender, to him with it.

Abby McDonald:
Yeah. Yeah. There well, there’s been more than one time for sure, but, I one of the most recent times that I recall, and it it was the situation where, like I said, he he became the comforter because I I needed that comfort, was, I went through a season a couple of years ago where I was just dealing with chronic back pain. It went on for, it was between six and eight months where, you know, it was just every day, you know, no relief. And, I had been the specialist. You know? I had gotten the MRI and done all these things, and nothing nothing was helping. And I remember one day when I was walking my dog, you know, I just cried out to him, and I was like, I don’t I don’t know how much more of this I can take. You know? I really need relief.

Abby McDonald:
I need to know that you’re with me in the midst of this. And so that night my husband is a dedicated, stargazer, and so he always knows when there’s a major, like, star, you know, lunar event going on, and he knew that night there was gonna be a meteor shower. And so he told me about it, and we made it a point to go out back. And we live in a pretty good stargazing area. We have about two acres, plot of land, and so, you can see lots of stars when the sky is clear and, you know, sure enough it started and it was just like one after the other, you know, just boom boom boom. And so I’m sitting there and I’m watching this, and I’m just in awe because I had never seen anything like it. You know, I’d seen falling stars, but nothing on this scale. And as I was laying down to go to bed that night, I sensed God telling me, you know what? I know that you don’t always understand what it is that you’re going through, but I am putting out fires for you that you don’t even see coming, that you’re never even aware of.

Abby McDonald:
You know? And I’m here. I I’m with you in this in the midst of it. And, that moment to me drew drew the surrender because it was like, you know, I don’t know when I’m gonna get relief from this, but I know that he’s here with me in it and that he cares. You know? I may not understand it. And I think that’s the key is we have to give up our need to understand, because there are a lot of times when we’re never gonna understand. Yeah. You know? And we can see that in in Job, for example, in the bible. I mean, he never understood what happened to him, but he understood who God was.

Abby McDonald:
And that, you know, that was why God chose to honor him. And so, yeah, it, and I and I did eventually get get relief. You know, it’s still kind of an ongoing journey for me, but I’m a lot further along than I was two years ago. So God was faithful.

Doris:
Well, thanks for sharing that. And I love how you kinda brought that out that Yeah. You know, we don’t have to understand everything. We just have to understand who God is and, you know, know his character and Mhmm. Trust trust him in in all things, even in our suffering, and how even in our suffering it draws us closer to Jesus and, you know

Abby McDonald:
Yeah.

Doris:
What he experienced in his suffering. So I think that’s so beautiful and so many great nuggets there and of truth that I know is gonna encourage someone who’s listening today. Because there might be someone listening, who might be dealing with chronic back pain, and it’s very debilitating. And especially if you’re, you know, you Yeah. You’re active and you don’t really have a choice of whether you’re active or not because you have things going on in your life that that have to be done. But, you know, of course, there is that season of rest, and sometimes God will use a lot of different things, even things that we might not choose to cause us to stop and rest and really reflect and surrender. And, you know, and God uses things like meteor showers, you know, to get our attention. And how majestic is that? You know, when you think about the beauty and what God it it just kind of allows us to step back and just see the bigger picture of what really this is all about.

Doris:
Yeah. Sometimes we can lose sight of of the bigger picture. Well, how does that not see the forest for the trees or something like that? So Yeah. That’s pretty powerful. So, but this yeah. So this is so great. And, you know, kind of like I was saying earlier, with with a writing journey, it can be really challenging because it does take a lot of time and Yeah. You do get a lot of no’s before you might get a yes.

Doris:
So that could really be something not only discouraging, but it could cause someone to wanna quit. So how would you encourage someone? Because it not necessarily is in writing because it’s really you know, the publishing world is kind of it it is a difficult thing because you do get a lot of rejections. But how can we go forward in anything that we do? Maybe in a job or, you know, even whatever God has us walking in right now, we might feel rejection. How can we kind of overcome not taking that personally and be able to use it, for something that will teach us something?

Abby McDonald:
Mhmm. Yeah. Yeah. That’s a good question. I have a chapter in my book that kinda speaks to this. It’s called, is it a closed door distraction? And and we kinda talked about distractions earlier, you know, how they can be those holy moments. When it’s a rejection, it feels a lot more personal, though, doesn’t it? Because, you know, it’s not just, you know, our circumstances or, you know, what we think is is a bump in the road. It’s it’s somebody who we think is just out and out saying we’re not good enough, you know, for for whatever it is that we’re pursuing.

Abby McDonald:
And so, yeah, I think that, that those can be refining moments too, you know, and and, obviously, it depends on what type of rejection it is. You know, if it’s if it’s a publisher rejection, then, unfortunately, that is part of the journey. You know? And I hate saying that, but, I can look back on every rejection that I received, and I can see how it really made me a better writer. You know? And, even though it was painful, you know, and it I had to take time to grieve that and allow myself to feel that disappointment, it did end up making me better, and ended up refining me as I worked through that. And so I would just say, you know, continue to to persevere and to fight that good side of faith. You know. If God has called you to write or to do whatever it is, you know, and you may not be a writer, but if he has called you to it, he’s going to make a way, and he’s going to get you through to what through that rejection to the other side. And one of my favorite Psalms is Psalm 23.

Abby McDonald:
And this Psalm has come into my life at at different parts of my journey in a very intentional way, but at one part in that Psalm, he says, the Lord is the light of my salvation, whom shall I fear? The Lord is the stronghold of my life, of whom shall I be afraid? And that just internalizing those words, has helped me so much because who do we have to fear? You know, if God is for us, who do we have to fear? And so I would encourage you to to read through that Psalm. It’s a very popular Psalm, but it is for a reason. And, it has just been such a an encouragement and a light in my life, and has helped me get through some really difficult seasons. Rejection, definitely being a big part of that.

Doris:
Beautiful. And thank you for the reminder of reading the Psalm, you know, that particular Psalm. And I remember, I think it was maybe Lisa TerKeurst maybe said one time that she had to learn to have, tough skin but a but a soft heart.

Abby McDonald:
Yeah. Yeah. I love that. Mhmm.

Doris:
Yeah. And I think, you know, rejection, you being a Proverbs 31 writer, that’s really encouraging and that you share God’s truth and encouragement through your writing that reaches so many people through that ministry. It’s just a fantastic ministry, to God and to his glory. And so as you’re writing these things, is it mainly like you’re sharing experiences that you’ve been through, or do they give you topics to to write about, or do you kind of just submit what God puts on your heart for that particular season? Or how does that work, Abby?

Abby McDonald:
Yeah. Yeah. Well, I’m glad you brought up because that was a a story of rejection too. And and the first time I applied to be on their team, it it wasn’t now. And then that opportunity opened up, a cup again, a couple of years later, and it was a yes. So I just I bring that up to say what seems like a yes, no or excuse me, a no now can be a yes later. So, you know, be encouraged in that. Yeah.

Abby McDonald:
They they do, give us topics with encouragement for today, which is the ministry that I write for, it’s pretty open. You know, they have certain topics that they look for, and that depends, a lot of times on the season, you know. So we’re about to enter Easter, so, of course, anything having to do with that or resurrection, the resurrection of Jesus. But, they are receptive to to what you wanna write about. And, of course, now with me launching a book, a lot of what I’m writing is gonna be about discerning the voice of God and, you know, surrendering that need for certainty. And so they’re very open to that, and, they’ve been a great help in just getting that message out there.

Doris:
So Yeah. And a perfect example. Like you said, it wasn’t you at first, but it wasn’t Yeah. It was, like, not no forget it ever. It was just no not yet, no not now Mhmm. Because it wasn’t the time. Right. And it wasn’t the season.

Doris:
And had you have received a yes Mhmm. From the get go on the first time you applied, it may not have been as sweet as when you were able to do it when you got the yes the second time. So it just it almost, like, even feels sweeter in a way or even something that you could treasure more and know that God had had your back on that and that he was opening the door at the right time. Because I always say, like, if God’s closed the door, don’t try to climb through the window because, you know, we try to make things happen and we try to manufacture our own, like, steps sometimes. And it it doesn’t always work out really well, but even so, god can

Abby McDonald:
Right.

Doris:
God can say, alright. You know, I’ll let this happen. But then we might be missing the exceedingly, abundantly above what we would have asked or hoped or thought. Because how many times have we, like, wanted to do something and it was like, no. Not now, or this isn’t gonna be a door that I’m opening, and it’s like, oh, but I love this door, and I wanna go through this store. And then why can’t I go through this store? You know? And we kind of become like a toddler. Like, our faith becomes like a toddler. And but, you know, we’re supposed to have childlike faith, so I guess that’s not all bad.

Doris:
But, you know, then he’s like, yeah. But look over here, you know, just wait a little while longer and I have this to come. So it kind of comes back to the theme of your book and how we can surrender the certainty

Abby McDonald:
Mhmm.

Doris:
And, you know, not be so stubborn sometimes. Sometimes we’re just a little stubborn and we want we want

Abby McDonald:
That’s true. To

Doris:
think about that. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. But definitely

Abby McDonald:
definitely been there.

Doris:
Yep. And so what are, maybe, like, one thing you would like to leave a listener with right now before, you know, you, can share how the listener can connect with you and grab your book and everything?

Abby McDonald:
Yeah. Absolutely. I would love to assure her that she does have the ability to hear God’s voice. I realize that God can sometimes feel distant or silent, but like I referred to earlier, he says in John 10, my sheep hear my voice. And we do have that ability to hear his voice. So it isn’t reserved for select few. It isn’t reserved for the person behind the pulpit on Sunday morning. It’s for you too.

Abby McDonald:
And so if you feel like you’re discouraged or you’re uncertain about that, then just enter into a conversation, with him and just get alone with him and get real. And I’m praying that he will open your eyes to the way he’s he’s speaking to you.

Doris:
Beautiful. I love that encouragement so much and how you brought out that he he’s speaking to us, so we don’t have to wait till he speaks through someone else, you know, to, you know, what they’re going to share. So I think that’s so powerful, and I love it. And I would love too if you would share how the listener can connect with you, if there’s any resources that you’d love to offer, and how they can grab your book.

Abby McDonald:
Yeah. Absolutely. Well, you can connect with me at abby mcdonald dot org. I do have a free, five day challenge that I send to email subscribers. It’s called five days to life unstuck, that addresses just some of the common hang ups that we have as followers of Jesus and ways that we can get unstuck. And, you’ll find all my book information there as well. The resellers that have it are there, or you can go to Amazon and you can find it. I know that’s a popular choice, so it is available there.

Doris:
Yes. And and when you read the book, and I know you’ll love the book and share about the book, it it will be amazing and a blessing to Abby if you would write a review about the book, and that will help others to find it. And I think, you know, that sometimes we just, you know, we don’t think about doing that, but it’s just such a special way to bless the person who shared a message that really resonated and encouraged us. And so well, well, thank you so much for being back on the show. It’s been a good long time before since you were on last. So, I knew that, you know, this would be a really special time to have you back on again. So I appreciate you so much, Abby. Thank you again, and God bless you.

Doris:
Yeah. God bless in your ministry and what God is doing in and through you. And, if you are listening right now, reach out to Abby, and I’ll have the links in the show notes so you can find her. And, friends, this has been an amazing time, and I hope that you’ll join me next time when I talk with another woman who’s taking action where her passion, compassion, and conviction intersect. Until then, friend, have a blessed week, and I will talk to you soon.