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In this episode of Conversations with a Shaman; 
We discuss the meaning of four more. I mention that when I am practicing my hand-drill fire-making, there is a point where I think I have an ember, or I feel like I’m too tired to continue. When I stop, I never have the ember, but when I tell myself no and give myself four more runs with everything I have. With a hundred percent accuracy, I have always gotten an ember and fire. To me, this concept of giving four more is simply telling myself not to give up when I want to. I ask Coyote Thunder Hawk how important is this example of four more, or as you put it, “I am going to live no matter what!”

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