Have you ever struggled to get buy in from senior leadership? Never in your entire life, right?

Well I've faced it. A lot. And I wanted to get in the mind of a super seasoned CMO to truly understand what makes them tick. What they care about. What they DON'T care about.

Who better than Kelly Hopping, CMO at Demandbase. And y'all, this one is CHOCK FULL of amazing insights from her to better understand how to communicate what you're doing to senior leadership.

This was the first episode I listened to twice, just to make sure I got everything down.

We got into:

- How to translate OKRs into what you do in experimentation / product (to help you actually get buy in)

- What CMOs (and senior leadership) ACTUALLY cares about (and what you're messaging to them is irrelevant to them)

- AMAZING career advice from her on how to pivot in your career appropriately

- Why leadership challenges A/B testing

Go follow Kelly on LinkedIn:⁠

https://www.linkedin.com/in/kellyhopping/

Go check out her podcast "NextGen CMO":

https://www.demandbase.com/podcasts/nexgen-cmo/

Also go follow Shiva Manjunath on LinkedIn:

⁠⁠⁠https://www.linkedin.com/in/shiva-manjunath/⁠⁠⁠

Subscribe to our newsletter for more memes, clips, and awesome content!

⁠⁠https://fromatob.beehiiv.com/

Finding clients is hard enough - finding GOOD ones? Feels damn near impossible.

I enlisted the help of Tas Bober to help navigate this complex field of getting client work, and explored topics related to CRO/client work as well!

We got into:

- Bringing confidence to the client relationship (you don’t always have to cave in to EVERY little freaking thing they want you to do)

- Running from bad clients when they don’t pass the vibe check (and how to find shitty clients BEFORE they pay you)

- How to talk to clients (and stakeholders) appropriately without talking DOWN at them (hint: treat them like they’re children. It works.)

Timestamps:

00:00 Episode Start

4:12 Detecting Client Red Flags BEFORE Signing A Contract With Them

8:46 What To Do When A Client Gives You The ‘Ick’

16:07 Importance of Setting (And Enforcing) Boundaries

20:30 Setting Success Metrics for Engagement Upfront

29:46 When “Leading With Data” Doesn’t Make Make Sense…?

46:20 Tas’ BIGGEST Pro Tip (Don’t Just Skip To This Timestamp Ya Leetches)

Go follow Tas Bober on LinkedIn:⁠

https://www.linkedin.com/in/tasbober/ ⁠

Go check out her podcast "Notorious B2B":

https://www.linkedin.com/company/notorious-b2b/posts/⁠

Also go follow Shiva Manjunath on LinkedIn:

⁠⁠⁠https://www.linkedin.com/in/shiva-manjunath/⁠⁠⁠

Subscribe to our newsletter for more memes, clips, and awesome content!

⁠⁠https://fromatob.beehiiv.com/

People are finding websites more and more manipulative. And we don't mean this word lightly.

Why is this the case? In large part, it's because of the shitty tactics people are using on sites. But really, it's because websites care far more about short term sales and metrics instead of focusing on LTV. And that leads to hacks, not long term gains.

Made With Intent released a REALLY great report which went into detail on this, and I had the man, myth, and legend David "Zedd" Mannheim on the pod to chop it up to discuss that report (among other things).

We got into:

- Why People Feel Like Websites are Manipulative

- How Popular 'Best Practice' Tactics Are Probably Hurting You Way More Than Helping

- Tips and Tricks on Maximizing Your Popups (WITH DATA)

Timestamps:

00:00 Episode Start

5:05  People Feel Websites Are Too Manipulative

11:12 Websites Seem to Prefer Sales Over CX

14:40 What Are Pop Ups Getting Wrong

19:02 Marketers Are More Focused On Numbers Than Humans

26:56 Does Social Proof Still Work In 2025

31:18 Scarcity Messaging

35:55 Discounting Isn’t A Strategy

42:02 Segmentation Is One Of The Most Important Things To Focus On

Go follow David Mannheim on LinkedIn:

https://www.linkedin.com/in/davidleemannheim/

Download the full report here (it's a REALLY good read):

https://www.madewithintent.ai/the-intent-gap-report

Also go follow Shiva Manjunath on LinkedIn: ⁠⁠https://www.linkedin.com/in/shiva-manjunath/⁠⁠

Subscribe to our newsletter for more memes, clips, and awesome content!

⁠https://fromatob.beehiiv.com/

We back out here with the amazing Emma Travis to dig into 'quality vs. quantity' when it comes to experimentation programs. The conversation Ben Labay keeps trying to force, but a bit more nuance to it.

There is a time and place for quality. But there is a time and place for velocity and scaling your program up in terms of number of tests run. How do you know when to do it? And what are triggers to get you .... ahem.... From A to B.

Emma "Biscuits and Gravy" Travis joined me on this episode to go DEEP into this topic.

Emma was sick and still trooped through this episode - give her all the flowers!!!

We got into:

- When to focus on velocity vs. when to focus on ‘quality’ of experiment

- Tips on auditing your program to know if you’re too focused on quality vs. quantity

- Smart ways to focus on research when resources are limited

Timestamps:

00:00 Episode Start

3:57 Is Velocity Appropriate In Tracking Metric For Experimentation Maturity?

9:23  Velocity Increase Doesn't Always Mean A Decline In Quality

11:51  Experimentation Velocity Is Like Flying A Plane

19:19 When To Scale Velocity Vs. When To Focus On Quality

24:33 Run A Heuristic Audit Of Your Cro Program (*Bonus Points For Doing It In Miro)

28:00 What Defines "Quality" In A Test?

36:35 How Do You Communicate A Decline In Velocity Knowing You're Increasing Quality?

40:35 Good Ways To Use Ai To Help You Speed Up Research

Go follow Emma Travis on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/emma-travis/

Also go follow Shiva Manjunath on LinkedIn: ⁠https://www.linkedin.com/in/shiva-manjunath/⁠

Subscribe to our newsletter for more memes, clips, and awesome content!

https://fromatob.beehiiv.com/

How many of you have seen a website teardown and thought “Dude you literally have 0 data, this is just a vibes analysis?”

I have that thought regularly. And it got me thinking about heuristic audits as a whole, and trying to understand what makes a good heuristic audit good, and a bad heuristic audit bad. I enlisted the help of my mortal enemy Rishi Rawat to explore this. 

Vibes were immaculate, and he actually said some smart things in this episode (shocker - I know).

We got into:

- The critical missing ingredients to take your heuristic from ‘shit’ to not only trustworthy, BUT valuable

- Where many heuristic audits fail to be meaningfully impactful (despite being positioned as such)

- An exploration of “expert” vs “non-expert” heuristic audits (and why both are incredibly valuable)

Timestamps:

00:00 Episode Start

2:08 What Is a Heuristic Audit (With Help from Ryan Thomas)

8:53 Good Heuristic Audits Are Systematic in Nature

12:22 The "Goal" of the Heuristic Audit May Be More Important Than the Process

16:20 The Importance Of Data to Informing The Heuristic Audit

22:01 Rishi Actually Says Something Smart

27:07 Heuristic Audits Should Highlight BOTH The Good AND The Bad

35:29 Many Heuristic Audits Don't Simulate Emotion (Yet They Should....)

Go follow Rishi Rawat on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/rawatrishi/

Go check out the homie Ryan Thomas:

https://www.linkedin.com/in/ryancharlesthomas/

Also go follow Shiva Manjunath on LinkedIn: ⁠https://www.linkedin.com/in/shiva-manjunath/⁠

Subscribe to our newsletter for more memes, clips, and awesome content!

https://fromatob.beehiiv.com/

And go get your free ticket for the Women in Experimentation - you might even be entered to win some From A to B merch! : https://tinyurl.com/FromAtoB-WIE

Problematic stakeholders could be convinced if they... just got data. Right?

Nope. Sometimes it's deeper than that. You gotta understand what makes them tick. Is it data? Is it optics? Maybe you should be running heuristic audits on your stakeholders instead of your website...

In the second time EVER, someone else has changed my mind on something. Leave it to "Kingpin" Finn McKenty, who's apparently gone from Punk Rock MBA to Finn McKenty PhD, to change my mind.

We got into:

- How YouTubers are more data driven than your own CEO (lol)

- Why you should be running heuristic audits not JUST on your website, but on the stakeholders you interact with (and tips to do so effectively)

- Finn gives some general life advice on learning to let go (important when many product and CROs don't have autonomy to actually impact anything)

Timestamps:

00:00 Episode Start

2:46  The analogy of CRO and "Gym" goes so deep

6:25 Even YouTubers are data driven

11:20 People who don’t buy into “experimentation” just optimize for different metrics than you

14:28 Psychology of UXers vs. Product/CRO (Finn low key is a psychologist now)

20:01 Running heuristic audits on… stakeholders? (yes - it’s a good idea)

25:07 Optimization sometimes means optimizing for ‘helping people’ (not metrics)

30:16 Sometimes, CROs gotta play the politics game

35:13 Finn offers sage advice in learning how to let go (CROs need to hear this)

49:06 Preach: Samuele Mazzanti

Go follow Finn McKenty on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/finnmckenty/

And go subscribe to his newsletter:

https://finnmckenty.beehiiv.com/

Go check out Samuele Mazzanti's post too:

https://tinyurl.com/FromAtoB-Samuele

Also go follow Shiva Manjunath on LinkedIn: ⁠https://www.linkedin.com/in/shiva-manjunath/⁠

Subscribe to our newsletter for more memes, clips, and awesome content!

https://fromatob.beehiiv.com/

And go get your free ticket for the Women in Experimentation - you might even be entered to win some From A to B merch! : https://tinyurl.com/FromAtoB-WIE

Do you REALLY know what cookies are? Like really, REALLY know? What about GDPR? What about PII?

I know the words. But what do they REALLY mean? I enlisted the help of Eddie "The Techie" Aguilar to help me simplify some of these complex topics, and help me create meaningful next steps on how to address PII concerns and other marketing-related issues in data collection.

We got into:

- Simplified definitions of cookies, data collection, GDPR, etc. (I'm stupid and like hearing things simplified from smart people)

- First vs. Third part cookies (and what it means to your marketing program)

- A/B testing and the importance of NOT collecting PII in your testing tools

Timestamps:

00:00 Episode Start

2:31 What is a Cookie?

7:41 How Cookies Have Been Used Maliciously (Lack of Consent)

9:51 First Party vs. Third Party Data

13:11 Opting Out of Cookies (Explained)

14:45 GDPR

28:20 A/B Testing and Cookies

37:30 PII and A/B testing

Go follow Eddie Aguilar on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/whoiseddie/

Also go follow Shiva Manjunath on LinkedIn: ⁠https://www.linkedin.com/in/shiva-manjunath/⁠

Subscribe to our newsletter for more memes, clips, and awesome content!

https://fromatob.beehiiv.com/

And go get your free ticket for the Women in Experimentation - you might even be entered to win some From A to B merch! : https://tinyurl.com/FromAtoB-WIE

It happens rarely, but somehow Linda was able to change Shiva's mind this podcast. And we got it ON THE RECORD.

What did she change his mind on? Linda "The Winna" Bustos brought some compelling conversation to the fact that company CAN differentiate in 'cookie cutter' websites (e.g. Shopify) in really, really creative ways.

We got into:

- The importance of copy when you're using a generic 'cookie cutter site' (e.g. Shopify templates)

- Letting your brand shine through to help you differentiate (including some hilarious examples of how some brands have accomplished this)

- Cool trends Linda has been seeing in ecom space

Timestamps:

00:00 Episode Start

2:58  Shopify Is Basically A "Paint By Numbers" Website Generator

7:41  Using Shopify When Your Product Truly Is Unique

9:53  Tips On Stand Out From The Crowd On Product Pages

12:40  Mattresses Is An Industry To Keep An Eye On

18:56 Shiva Glazing Liquid Death (For A Good Reason Though)

21:23  Other Creative/Creative Brands Which Have Done Cool Shit

27:44 Make Your Copy Memorable (And Palace Has Amazing Copy)

30:30 How Do Luxury Brands Differentiate?

36:01  Product Finders Can Be A Differentiator

41:03 Do Better Competitor Comparison Charts

Go follow Linda on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/lindabustos/

And check out her website Ecom Ideas: https://ecomideas.com/

Also go follow Shiva on LinkedIn: ⁠https://www.linkedin.com/in/shiva-manjunath/⁠Subscribe to our newsletter for more memes, clips, and awesome content!

https://fromatob.beehiiv.com/

If you have listener questions, submit them at https://tinyurl.com/askfromatob for a chance to be featured too!

Do product/CRO people REALLY know well? There may be some Dunning Kruger happening, and maybe we really don't get why they keep complaining about our initiatives.

Spoiler: Many times, they have a VERY legitimate point!

Who better than the freaking VP of Nielsen Norman Group "Checkmate" Kate Moran to come dish all the things we're getting wrong about UX, and how to better work together.

We got into:

- What product teams/CRO can learn from UX, and vice versa

- Why product teams really need to focus on longer term relationships with the customer (and not chasing short term gains)

- Amazing (and not so amazing) use cases for AI in UX

Timestamps:

00:00 Episode Start

1:52 How Does UX View Experimentation / CRO?

6:51 What Are The Biggest Problems UX Faces As An Industry?

13:03 What Can CROs/Product Learn from UX (And Vice Versa)

17:22 UX/Product Share This In Common: No One Knows What The Fuck We Do

20:55 AI in UX - DON’T (!!!) Blindly Trust It

26:56 What Is “Google Gullibility”?

30:51 Context Matters in UX

38:05 Shiva Is Kinda Agegist (My Bad lol)

Go follow Kate on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kate-m-moran/

And check out Nielsen Norman's new live online courses!

https://www.nngroup.com/training/live-courses/

Also go follow Shiva on LinkedIn: ⁠⁠https://www.linkedin.com/in/shiva-manjunath/⁠Subscribe to our newsletter for more memes, clips, and awesome content!

https://fromatob.beehiiv.com/

If you have listener questions, submit them at https://tinyurl.com/askfromatob for a chance to be featured too!

How many of y'all feel a bit nervous about going to in-person conferences / networking events? André Morys and I have been there before. Would you believe that "Sensei" André is actually an introvert?! Could've fooled me 👀

I wanted to get feedback from someone who RUNS conferences to figure out what tips and tricks we can utilize to get the most out of in-person events, ESPECIALLY coming from two people who are actually pretty introverted (if you can believe it...)

We got into:

- Tips for introverts to "get out of your own head" at conferences / in-person events

- Feeling imposter syndrome at conferences (and how to break the nasty mental hold it has on you)

- Being curious about everyone and everything is probably the BIGGEST tip you can take away

Timestamps:

00:00 Episode Start

3:32 Rules for Conferences (NOT Tips - obey these always)

 9:01 How to Be Your Authentic Self At Conferences

12:54 Tips for Introverts at In-Person Events / Conferences

18:24 Feeling Imposter Syndrome at Conferences

27:05 Don't Overthink - Just Be Curious (When Interacting With Humans lol)

29:32 More Tips for Introverts (And Extroverts - It’s Your Job to Help Introverts)

37:40 How Do You Shut People Up Who Just Keep Flexing / Selling

50:00 Pace Yourself - The Value of Conferences Happens AFTER The Talks

Go follow André on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/andre-morys/

And if you're interested in signing up for the GMS conference (using the promo code André shared in the episode, which to remind y'all I get 0 kickbacks or dollars from lol) - go buy a discounted ticket! https://www.growthmindedsuperheroes.com/home

Subscribe to our newsletter for more memes, clips, and awesome content!

https://fromatob.beehiiv.com/

Also go follow Shiva on LinkedIn: ⁠⁠⁠https://www.linkedin.com/in/shiva-manjunath/⁠If you have listener questions, submit them at https://tinyurl.com/askfromatob for a chance to be featured too!