Get Comfortable Being Uncomfortable with Erika Hall

Let’s be real: writing is hard. We’ve written and rewritten this intro seven times. Taking on _any_ new challenge or project that requires deep thought, passion, and creativity, can push us outside of our comfort zones. It can make us feel anxious about succeeding—but it can also force us to grow and take on _new_ challenges.

In this episode, Erika Hall talks with us about starting a design agency, the power of empathy in everything we do, and her brand-new book.

> People are actually terrified of asking questions — and especially people who end up in positions of leadership. To say, “Oh, we don’t know this and we have to find something out, and I don’t have the answer” is really scary, and that’s nothing that we’ve been rewarded for our entire lives. And if you want to have a research mindset or just use evidence to make decisions, you have to be in a constant state of admitting that you don’t have all the answers.

>

> _—Erika Hall, Mule Design_

Here’s what we get into—and of course, there’s a full transcript, too.

## Show Notes

First, Katel shares a secret: when she started working for A Book Apart, she’d never worked on a book before. But neither had the first author she worked with! And it all worked out ok. We discuss getting used to big new challenges, and how to decide when it’s time to take the leap and write a book—and then give the middle finger to imposter syndrome.

### Interview: Erika Hall

Designer, author, and all-around smarty [Erika Hall](https://twitter.com/mulegirl) fills us in on how she spent the last year: writing a book (and getting stuck, and writing some more), teaching people how to make better design decisions, and taking on gender bias in the workplace. We talk about:

- How she started [Mule Design](https://muledesign.com/) and how the agency—and their work—has changed since 2001.

- Being outspoken online and fighting the trolls who live in our review systems.

- Why it’s critical to bring empathy into our working relationships as well as our personal ones—and how feeling comfortable being uncomfortable can be the most powerful thing you can do.

Why we won’t solve gender bias with education alone; we have to change our own habits and help others learn to do the same.

- Her new book, [_Conversational Design_](https://abookapart.com/products/conversational-design), all about how to use conversation as a model for designing interactive digital products and services that are less robotic and more real.

- The joys and horrors of writing: making it through 2017, surviving the myth that your second book will be easier than your first, overcoming a health setback—but getting through it all to launch a book.

- Finding inspiration IRL—no, really, sometimes stepping away from our screens and talking to our neighbors is the best way to rediscover the good in the world. And listening to Oprah. And Ru Paul.

### Fuck Yeah of the Week

We end the show with heartfelt appreciation and admiration for [Emma Gon](https://twitter.com/Emma4Change)