This is our 14th episode of the Brain Brew Whisk(e)y Academy. We will discuss why going deep makes better spirits - Classic Rocks. This podcast episode features Whiskey Maker - Doug Hall and Whiskey Drinker - Tripp Babbitt.

Show Notes

[00:00:04] Brain Brew Whisk(e)y Academy Podcast

[00:00:26] Topic- Great Companies, Great Distilleries - Go Deep

[00:00:57] Once You Set the Mission - Go Deep

[00:01:24] 70% of the Flavor in Whisk(e)y Comes from the Wood

[00:05:44] Scarcity of Wood = Limited Editions

[00:08:18] The Classic Rock's Serve

[00:11:01] 7 Minutes Optimal Time for Whisk(e)y on Ice

 

 

Transcript

Tripp: [00:00:04] This is the Brain Brew Whisk(e)y Academy podcast where we're going to take you behind the scenes on what it takes to build a whisk(e)y distillery business. The Eureka ranch team led by Doug Hall are creating a craft whisky company like has never been done before

 

Tripp: [00:00:26] The topic here. Great companies great distilleries go deep and you say they have a great company. You need to go deep on something will you. This is kind of your theme that you've talked about here overall and your January 24th newsletter. You've spoken you've spoken about going dead people the need for people to go deeper. So how is this playing out in this distillery.

 

Doug: [00:00:52] Well it's not dissimilar to last weeks when we when we talked about mission.

 

Doug: [00:00:57] You know you've got that mission now let's do the work you know get in on something and in the case of you know a whisk(e)y distillery is what's going to make you mining fleet. OK. So you got this mission but what's gonna be your defining point difference What are you gonna really do this different. And in our case what we came to when we thought about enabling people with different whisk(e)y is we thought OK this different things we could do we could distill it differently we could use different grains.

 

Doug: [00:01:24] Ok. We could do some great. We could do really weird grains and buckwheat things that aren't normally done or heritage grains or organic grains and we could do those but when we looked at it you know 70 percent of the flavor of a whisk(e)y comes from the wood it is the wood in the interaction of the lignans in the wood with the spirit that creates the thing that we know is a whisk(e)y the color and the flavor.

 

Doug: [00:01:49] And so we decided that we were gonna go deep on wood we were gonna know wood like nobody in the world knows what now part of this came from my background I'd spent over over 20 years working with Eddington that makes the Macallan who are masters of wood with regards to and particularly European Sherry oak.

 

Doug: [00:02:10] Which is why Macallan has this incredible luxury you know just like nothing else. It's also the most expensive whisk(e)y in the world because of that and so I I had understood the value of wood from that.

 

Doug: [00:02:22] And so we just went into wood and so we built our systems so that we could test as quick and fast as possible so whether it's using old oak new oak Japanese oak European oak Canadian oak whether it's using maple or cherry or chestnut or walnut generally hardwoods is what you use whether it's toasting it in different ways from a light toast to a char.

 

Doug: [00:02:54] And I said we just need know we'd better day by us in the world needs wood and we could do it very rapidly with time compression. So we ran over 2000 experiments ran over 500 consumer taste tests to deepen our learning so I mean that's called going deep. You know we went all in on the wonder of wood and so I mean we get it we get it.

 

Doug: [00:03:15] We decided to not just still but to buy raw spirit. I mean we could distill but you know I just looked at the math I saw the value add that you make if I make it you know other than which grain you use which is maybe 25 percent of it maybe five percent of it is do you run you're still cool. I mean it's like I said before it's not making beer. It's new experience where it's the whisk(e)y maker who puts the barrels together that really creates the flavors that we know is whisk(e)y. And so you know that's what we did is we went deep on wood and wood is the way and the different treatments of wood whether it's old world or new world that's our means to deliver on customizing your whisk(e)y because you basically become a wood master when you do our stuff because you can be a distiller and you can be a fancy distiller but that's not going to have an impact on what you get in the glass. I understand people love distilling and I'm cool with that if that's your thing. Rock on for us.

 

Doug: [00:04:15] We can't get the differences from the distilling that we can get with wood to give people really different tasting bourbon giving people really different tastings ryes, barleys or wheats or whatever it is that we might be doing.

 

Doug: [00:04:27] I mean that's where and for our mission. Wood was the thing that we went deep on and we've gone deep and and I'll be honest with you we may have gone even further we need to go because we've got compulsive about it and I had to pull the team out and just say ship ship ship now because we are weak we are addicted to knowing more about that would. I mean we the work we do inspecting wood and checking wood and evaluating it is compulsive because our process goes so fast we have to have impeccable quality so we are I mean no one is this fanatical about would as as as we are because wood is where the flavor comes from.

 

Tripp: [00:05:13] So Doug a question that comes up late when I hear you say that is the you know there's only so much wood. Right. I mean you have to find a wood that there is an abundance of to be able to make know consistent whisk(e)y you know over a period of time in other words you if it's a rare wood that's great. You're going to get a taste but you may only have enough to make 50 cases or something like that. Is that.

 

Doug: [00:05:44] Yeah well it's different. It's different things if you're doing it. I mean in the whisk(e)y business one of the things that's great is limited editions. And so there is a virtue when I get some very special wood that a person has or we find is you know like we've got some 200 year old wood in one of our products from an old barn that we that had fallen down and we reclaimed the wood clean the outside and cut it up and charred it. And so we can give an amazing taste with that. And but they can be limited editions.

 

Tripp: [00:06:16] You know it's a real scarcity.

 

Doug: [00:06:18] There's this plenty and it doesn't take much wood to do a bottle of whisk(e)y. It's just it's just not a lot of wood. So there's no real you know it's not like cutting down trees to make barrels. I mean this is it's pretty easy in fact we can use barrels we cut barrels up and do it. I mean we would do that with the with our no below product is we take European share oak and we cut the barrels up and use that.

 

Tripp: [00:06:42] Ok. But but you said that what was the percentage you said 70 percent of the flavor comes from.

 

Doug: [00:06:48] 70 percent. Yeah. That's pretty much what the experts will tell you it's 70 percent is that is the wood and and the skill of the whisk(e)y maker putting the barrels together. And

 

Doug: [00:06:59] If we had barrels at the top of the warehouse versus the bottom of the warehouse they're going to age differently and they'll have it in the center of the building versus the edges of the building. And so the skill to put that together in that would that 70 percent probably 20 25 percent is the grain choice we taste different than Rye which tastes different than corn which tastes different than bourbon which tastes different than barley and probably 5 percent is the distiller. Now that's assuming that the distiller does their job and if they if they do it badly that's that ruins everything. But if you make a dirty spirit that isn't very good then that's a different issue. But assuming that you're competent at what you're doing the value add in whisk(e)y unlike beer it's not the distiller it is the whisk(e)y maker who manages the barrels and puts together the whiskeys.

 

Tripp: [00:07:50] And you mentioned this before but basically you're a whisk(e)y maker then uses the innovation engineering system to go through the cycles of learning and mastery associated with your whiskeys.

 

Doug: [00:08:03] Yeah right yeah. Which is no different than a chef making something and then trying four or five different versions on it to see which one customers like the best. We just happened to do the same thing and we do with quantitative research. So it's the same thing. It's a never ending learning how can I make the product better.

 

Tripp: [00:08:18] Ok good. All right well let's talk about the classic rock's serve. You threw a little bit of a curveball at me here. I'm usually looking for the next drink. This is not really about that per se it's it's about whisk(e)y and putting ice and water in it.

 

Doug: [00:08:40] Yes. So you know only about 20 percent of people drink whisk(e)y drink it neat despite all the noise on it they make a lot of noise 80 percent. They add ice water or mixers with it. So most whisk(e)y over 80 percent of whisk(e)y is consumed with something in it. I happen to like it with ice. And so this week while we're talking about going deep and talking about wood I said this was the week when we had to not do anything to get in the way of the whisk(e)y.

 

Doug: [00:09:08] Now that said I'd still put some ice in filla  Glass about half full. Put some use our Noble Oak product that I've been talking about a Noble Oak bourbon you know double gold in San Francisco ninety five score ultimate challenge and and just you know put some ice and stir it you know a dozen times or so and just sip and savor that thing and you're gonna get you've got the new American oak the bourbon than the European Sherry oak. So it's this kind of wonderful depth. So sometimes bourbons can be kind of shrill they can be kind of one dimensional and very corny as in the flavor corn here you're gonna get just a richness and a character. Some people have said to me it's got I'm stereotyping which is not fair because their products are not but bourbons oftentimes are kind of one dimensional scotches are oftentimes richer in flavor. But the scotches can also be somewhat dirtier. There can be some smoke and from the peat and there can be also the barley can be a bit gnarly as we say. And at the same time the you know it'll be a lot cleaner with the bourbon. And so what we're trying to do is we do clean but rich so a way to think of this is by mixing these two Woods we're getting a fusion of the cleanness of a bourbon but with a richness without the nastiness of a Scotch it's not really because it is still a bourbon but the double wood here really puts a depth of character in the sherry oak wood which you know those barrels cost like 50 times more than the regular bourbon barrels do X bourbon barrels.

 

Tripp: [00:11:01] Okay. And what was that like. I think that one of the previous Brain Brew Whisk(e)y Academy segment she talked about the pool you put the ice in for seven minutes and that's kind of the optimal time. I don't know if you were just messing with me or that was a real thing.

 

Doug: [00:11:20] Yeah. No. No. So. So what happened is is we we put I I like it with ice and its craft distilleries so craft people make choices and you make what you love and then you take it to the world. That's that's how we do it. We do the testing to optimize but if we don't like it if we don't put it into a test it's that's because of the way it is we're doing it.

 

Doug: [00:11:42] And so what we ended up with is we added a little over 20 percent more square inches of wood per bottle so if you look at a barrel so many square inches of wood divided by the number of bottles of spirit are inside. And we took it up a little bit and then we adjusted the compression that we did and we made it such that oftentimes with with whiskeys in particular bourbon sometimes and scotches some of them will they'll fall apart if you add ice to it the flavor drops off real quick just throw it off a cliff. And we wanted it to have with ice. And so we made it with extra wood and so the result is you taste it and it's good but it gets better over about seven minutes and then it starts down the other side. And so the second sip is better than the first and the third will be better than the second it's general it's a little bar trick that we do with people within I try it. Now wait a little bit and I'll try it again and it actually gets better with ice and that. That's that's designed into the product that's there for a reason.

 

Tripp: [00:12:51] We did that on purpose huh. That's interesting. Well this this episode is going is prior to your distillery opening this weekend. So the next time we talk in your newsletter will you'll be able to talk to the opening of your distillery this weekend. Is there anything you want to say about the opening night.

 

Doug: [00:13:17] Actually I'd rather not talk about that. OK. Because I may or may not be officially opening we may be running an R&D experiment. Oh maybe a quiet eye opening.

 

Tripp: [00:13:28] Ok I got you I got you. Remember one of our segments was about patients right. That's right. OK. All right. Well go deep play everybody takes that to heart.

 

Doug: [00:13:42] I mean it's OK to have convenience but if you're gonna to use the convenience and it frees you up what's it gonna free you up to then go do you know you ever. You know all these people spend this time to free you up so they freed you up. Now what are you going to do with it. Because of that. What are you gonna do with your life. Get up get out get going. That's what I'm telling you to do.

 

Tripp: [00:14:02] All right. Very good. Well thank you Doug. Look forward to your next newsletter.

 

Doug: [00:14:08] Excellent.

 

Tripp: [00:14:16] Have you ever thought about owning your own craft whisk(e)y business. Well subscribe to the brain brew whisk(e)y Academy because in the early 2019 we'll be offering opportunities to start your own business. Whether you are an aspiring entrepreneur curious about innovation or just like a good story the brain brew whisk(e)y Academy podcast will take you behind the scenes to learn the good bad and the ugly about what it takes to create whisk(e)y and the craft space. Which is growing at a crazy rate. Lessons learned can be applied. Broadly.