This podcast includes two interviews/discussions, one with Jakob Hafele of the Zoe Institute for Future-Fit Economies and the other with Lars Münter of the Nordic Health 2030 Coalition. Both of their organisations are members of the global Wellbeing Economy Alliance, but have come to it from different angles. Jakob talks about his work on the EU level to help enable the economy to function independently of economic growth, and his reading of the current situation in the EU and worldwide, while Lars argues that health and environmental advocates need to make more precise use of the language of money along with other measurements, such as environmental and satisfaction indicators, in order to better communicate the potential of their work. Both discussions take place with Caroline Whyte.