(0:03) MEGAN: This is Pretty Psych, the podcast where we discuss and deconstruct the impact of evangelical Christianity and cultural phenomena on the psyche, the deep and sometimes uncharted territory of the mind. We venture into raw, rough, and sometimes triggering moments, but we know that through this what we will find will be pretty fascinating, amazing, and pretty intelligent. My name is Megan Owen. I'm a pastoral trauma counselor, and I have spent decades studying the science of human behavior. I draw parallels between therapy and connection to God, self, and others. I love what I do, and I will walk hand in hand with you through the fire to help you find healing and rest. Most importantly, I want to bring you home to yourself. 

(1:10) MEGAN: Hi, it's Megan Owen here from Mountain City Christian Counseling. Welcome to Pretty Psych. I am so excited to have Karri Cammack as a guest. She is a coach, a new coach with Mountain City Counseling. She grew up in Florida and then spent 24 years in Alaska before settling into a new life here in Colorado. So I get to see Karri sometimes. She is here in my area. She's a psychiatric registered nurse with a bachelor's degree in psychology and a master's degree in professional communication. So becoming a certified coach for Coach Karri has been a lifelong dream of hers, and she has expressed so much excitement for the opportunity to walk alongside other women and share their journeys on the road to healing. Coach Karri, welcome. I'm so glad to have you here.

(2:01) COACH KARRI: Thank you. I'm so excited to be here. 

(2:03) MEGAN: Ah, you're such a gem, and we are lucky to have you as our newest member of Mountain City's team. So tell us a little bit about yourself and what drew you to coaching. 

(2:14) COACH KARRI: Well, first, I'm just really excited to be on the program today and talking with you and becoming a part of Mountain City Christian Counseling. I believe in the mission and in the work, and so I'm very excited to be starting my journey with you. So what brought me into the program is that I had always wanted to be a therapist from the time I was in college, and then when I moved to Alaska, that changed a little bit due to schools and availability of programs and those types of things. So I went for a different master's at the time and ultimately ended up going into nursing and gravitating naturally towards psychiatric nursing since that was my background. I've always loved my job in psychiatric nursing. I've always enjoyed being able to be there for clients when they really need someone at their most vulnerable. My goal as a nurse has always been to hold those most vulnerable moments in my hands and let people know that they're safe leaving them with me. It's just going to be a moment in time that they shared with me and that hopefully they were able to get some relief out of this situation because of our being able to talk. So that was always my goal. The pastoral counseling appealed to me because I love the concept of shepherding someone, of being coming alongside of them and letting them realize that the strength that they need is truly located inside of themselves, that God provides that for them, and that they are strong in themselves even when they don't realize it. So finding someone to come alongside you and show them or point out their strengths to them as they walk with you through their difficult journey is something that I'm honored to do as a coach and it's something that gives me a lot of joy and gives me a lot of hope for people who are trying to heal and people who have been so broken emotionally through various things in their lives.

(4:27) MEGAN: Oh my goodness, see that your tender heart just shows through, shines through with everything that you're saying. I have had the privilege of seeing firsthand how beautifully you handle somebody's vulnerabilities. So within this program, the pastoral coaching program that we have at Mountain City, we do live practicums where the coaches practice on each other and I remember in one of the practicums that you did that the other coach was just amazed. She said she really actually did help me with this problem and I watched her feel that safety with you. That is one of your strengths for sure and you're good in a crisis. Nothing is too big for you. Nothing is overwhelming to you. You've seen, you know, we think we've seen it all but we really haven't but it feels like you've seen it all. So before we move on beyond the certification because you did just complete that which congratulations by the way, it's very exciting. You did a lot of hard work, very studious, you love the work, you love studying and you love learning. What was maybe your favorite part of the certification? You can choose a unit or you can choose just an aspect of it. 

(5:43) COACH KARRI: If I were to choose a unit, it would be the listening unit. The unit that talked about the difference between hearing someone and giving knowledge versus truly listening and being a part of their journey and their difficult moments and just sharing those emotions and that time together. I call it a connection when I can truly come together and find that common ground with someone and I think it's what so many people are looking for and they just can't seem to find it. Looking for it with their spouses, looking for it with their family members, looking for it with their friends and so my goal is just to continue to learn how to open up and be a better listener and really hear what people are saying not just through their words but through their facial expressions and their non-verbal cues and even some of those non-word but verbal cues that we make like uh-huh and things like that. So that is something that I just want to continue to keep learning. Another part of the learning process that was really important to me was seeing that I could do this. Just like when you told me that someone that I had worked with, another colleague, said that I had actually helped her with something. That was a big factor in helping me feel like I was making a difference and that I was capable of making a difference in the future as a coach. So those were the two things that really stood out to me the most and one thing I loved about that particular person that you were talking about is that we continued to talk outside of that session about the same thing that we had talked about in the session and so I really got to see kind of the come full circle and see the whole thing resolve itself as much as it possibly could at that moment. So I was super grateful and honored to be part of her story and for her to have let me in and let me know about it.

(8:00) MEGAN: Well, I didn't know that. So that does this instructor's supervisor-heart a lot of good to know that there is such a beautiful community of coaches. I love our coaching community. I think it's really, really unusual and supportive and I love that. So I got to watch you as supervisor. I got to watch you step into this role. I think you were confident because you've, you know, you're so intelligent. You're so good with people but there was a little trepidation but then you stepped into it and just took off. It was so natural for you. What did it feel like for you to be working with pro bono clients, which that's what our coaches do, and to watch those aha moments or to see them grow and change and get what they needed? What was that like for you? 

(8:54) COACH KARRI: It was humbling. I felt like my part in being a coach wasn't necessarily to give the best advice in the world or to provide platitudes to different people. Instead, it was more of a journey. Every time that I met with someone, I would hear part of the story and think, okay, let's talk about that. I might write something down. Then as the conversation continued with the client, it changed. I realized, okay, so that's an important point that maybe we'll go back to but let's talk about this other piece first. It was really just a matter of being in the moment. That is super humbling because following someone and listening to someone and knowing where they're at and what they need is not always the easiest thing to do. If you can follow people as they speak to you and truly stay in line with what they're saying, you can really reach them at a deeper level than you ever thought possible. Not because of what is coming out of my mouth, but because of what maybe we're reflecting back to them or showing them that they are capable or giving them the strength that's already inside themselves that they don't know they have. Again, that was just a very humbling experience because I had to go in every time with an open mind, with no background or thought of what I was going to say because I knew that no matter if I planned something or not, it would change.

(10:37) MEGAN: Right. Okay. And it was such a gift to watch you stretch your arms out into that role. And it's a little counterintuitive to start thinking, oh, I don't actually have to give somebody advice. They have everything they need inside of them. And that's something that I often say to clients, I don't need to insert anything into you. I do not hold some sort of magical key or remedy for what you're going through, but I promise you you're not alone in this and we will talk about it and we will work through it and you will give me the answers. And I actually remember you doing this in the practicum. I remember you saying to one of your clients something like you just answered your own question, right? 

(11:22) COACH KARRI: Yes. And I love that. I love when I let them talk and continue to work through something as they're talking. And then I say, that's it. You just found your answer and you found it yourself. It gives people so much strength to realize that they found it themselves rather than someone giving them an idea of how to find it themselves. 

(11:49) MEGAN: Right. And with abuse survivors, especially, which that is what you worked with, right? Primarily you work with abuse survivors. Abuse survivors are very used to being told how to think, told what they want, told how they're supposed to be. And so sometimes it's very tempting as a pastoral trauma coach to just answer because we know what helped us. And so it's hard to not just say, well, what I think you should do is, and to allow that person to discover that they do have what they need because they've been disconnected from who they are. 

(12:27) COACH KARRI: They don't yeah, they don't believe in their own gut feelings anymore because they've been told for so long what to do. 

(12:37) MEGAN: Yeah. Yeah. And I think that the best coaches and the best therapists are ones who know what it's like to feel that way or to feel the trauma. I think the best ones are the ones who've gone through it and are dealing with it and doing the healing work or have done the healing work or continue to do the healing work. And at Mountain City, we're not necessarily afraid to share that, but of course we have learned how to share that, right? 

(13:07) COACH KARRI: Yes. At appropriate times. 

(13:09) MEGAN: At appropriate times when it's helpful to the client, right? A lot of schools of thought say, no, you need to be a blank sheet of paper. You need to, to not have any sort of response at all to not express but that doesn't help empower our client, does it? We need to sometimes show them that what they went through was horrifying because they've been gaslit, right? 

(13:31) COACH KARRI: Yes. Yes, for sure. Interestingly, another piece of the puzzle that was really eye-opening for me was that people's personal metronome in terms of healing is very different. So I had one client who wanted to move forward quickly with making decisions. And then one that was a lot more introverted in her thought process, but that didn't mean she didn't want answers. It just meant that she needed more time to process in between sessions and learning that about those two wonderful and amazingly just strong women was really interesting for me as a coach and really helped me understand something that I might not have known at the beginning that helped kind of turn things for me to help me be more patient and to walk alongside someone with that love of, hey, your situation was different or your situation might've been different from mine or anything that was appropriate at the time, but just knowing, hey, I'm here and we will walk this together. We will get through this together and we will provide that. 

(14:50) MEGAN: That is so beautiful. Karri, that just goes to what a beautiful coach you are. I like the word metronome. That's a nice word for the tempo of healing. And, and you recognized that in their space for that, that wasn't something you judged. It's just something that you noticed. And as a coach, you had thoughts, you altered, you recognized that pretty quickly. And that's how you moved forward with one client who was ready to make decisions and one that was more contemplative, which is kind of a perfect little combination there for learning. But I just love that that's where you went with that. Now, I remember a moment where you said, oh my gosh, Megan, I understand why you love this so much. Do you remember that?  What, what sparked that comment? 

(15:45) COACH KARRI: When I would finish a session with someone, I would be energized, not in the sense that I was excited about someone's hurting journey or painful journey, but energized in that I was able to provide some sense of hope in that short amount of time that we were together, which I know 50 minutes sounds like a long time, but really when you're meeting with someone, 50 minutes can, can really go very quickly. And I felt like meeting with these women and them saying to me, thank you so much, or anything that was indicative of them feeling like they have seen something more profoundly or discovered something inside themselves made me feel like I was doing the work that needed to be done so desperately. So many people are so desperately in need of help. So at the end of those sessions, I, I would feel energized that there was a hope and a peace in the world that I could offer to folks who needed it. 

(16:57) MEGAN: Absolutely. And I mean, what that said to me that day, when you said that was okay, she is truly pursuing her passion and purpose because trauma coaching, that is not for the faint of heart. That's not for everybody. People often ask me, how do you see six to eight clients a day without carrying that into your life? Because I was made for this. That's, I mean, that's the short answer. There are a lot of other answers as to how we manage compassion fatigue and, and how we are able to recognize that we can't fix, that we are here to companion, it takes the pressure off, you know, all of those things. But the short answer is because I was made for this. And when you said that to me, I thought, that's it. She's made for this. She is made for this. And I was really excited to invite you as part of our team here, because I know what you're capable of doing. It's beautiful. Coach Karri, what are you hoping for in the future with coaching?
(18:03) COACH KARRI: I'd like to build a clientele base. I'd like to build a trust and camaraderie with both my clients and then also with my colleagues as I work so that I can learn, continue to learn more so that I can continue to give more to the clients.

I still work full time as a psychiatric nurse. I'm hoping that this will make me even better at that as well. But ultimately, I'm looking to take on clients on a part time basis.

And maybe someday it will be full time. But right now just getting a practice started and working alongside people that I respect and taking more classes. I'm set to take a DBT class, which is Dialectical Behavioral Therapy. I'm excited about getting started with that. And with each one of those classes under my belt, then I hope to be able to provide even more guidance through each session and understanding. 

(19:04) MEGAN: Yes, yes. I love that. I love that you're always learning and always working on certifications and moving forward. And you all can hear just the kindness in Coach Karri's voice and the gentleness and her approach and her humility and all of the things that make a good coach. If you are interested in working with Coach Karri, you can reach out to [email protected]. The other piece that I do want to sort of lift up and bring forward is that we work together. We do not in any way break any HIPAA regulations. That is very important to Coach Karri, Coach Karen, myself. That doesn't happen. However, we do work together with a measure of supervision so that when you work with Karri, you're also receiving wisdom from other women around her, her colleagues. And so that's important. She's not an island. I'm not an island. Coach Karen's not an island. We're learning together. We're growing together. And I just want people to hear that. And that also, I think, is a big part of why Coach Karri's working with us because she enjoys that.

(20:16) COACH KARRI: Yes, definitely. 

(20:18) MEGAN: So my last question for you, Coach Karri, is what would you say to a potential client that reaches out and says, I'm really hurting, I'm really struggling, or I don't know what to do, or I've experienced trauma, or I'm in the midst of trauma, what would you say to her? 

(20:38) COACH KARRI: One of the first things I would say is, you are loved and you are not alone. That there is help and that it can be provided to you. It may not be with me. It may not be with someone else. It may, wherever you find it, it's available to you and we are here for you and we are here to help you find the right fit. I think one of the biggest things I love to hear from other colleagues and that I love to say to my clients is to just continually remind them that they're not alone because it is so easy to feel alone in today's society with computers and people hiding behind social media and the divisiveness that goes on around us in so many different ways and just having a connection is so, so important. So that is one of the first things I would say. As far as somebody needing help, I would work with them in terms of how often do you feel you need help and if it's every week or money's an issue or, you know, there's always ways to work around that. There are institutions that help pay for certain numbers of sessions and there are ways to do it every other week. There are just ways for us to meet and make it work so that anybody looking for the help that they need can get what they need even if it's not exactly how they wanted it, like every week on Wednesday at six o'clock, you know, there are ways to work around it and that's what we do is we work with people's schedules, we work with their time, we work with what is going on in their life.

Sometimes they need a month of straight sessions and then sometimes they need to take some time off and so that's all part of how we work with and listen to our clients. 

(22:42) MEGAN: Beautiful, beautiful. The other piece that I'm just going to throw out here is every once in a while we talk about what our values are at Mountain City and those are our three C's. We show compassion, we companion, and we're curious and as we hold on to those things you know that what you're getting is just a lot of love when you come to Mountain City and like Karri said we'll make it a good fit for you. Karri also is gifted in holding your story as sacred. She is full of admiration and respect for survivors. We recognize what it takes for you all to ask for help and we recognize the trust that you place in us when you share your stories. That is not taken lightly. We recognize how powerful that is that you feel like you can trust us and Karri you are beyond a doubt one of those humans who is a safe person for people to be vulnerable with. I love that about you. 

(23:50) COACH KARRI: Thank you. 

(23:52) MEGAN: You're welcome.

(23:53) COACH KARRI: Yeah that's my goal. 

(23:55) MEGAN: Well you do it beautifully, you do it beautifully. So all right well Karri thank you so much for coming aboard Mountain City, for being here today for Pretty Psych, for recognizing your calling and jumping on it and going through these difficult 12 weeks of study and practice and completing your certification. I consider you just one of the most amazing compassionate coaches out there in this world and I hope that other people recognize that and see your gifting and come and get some goodness from Coach Karri. Again remember if you're interested you can reach out to [email protected] and ask for Coach Karri. That's Karri with a K. 

(24:48) COACH KARRI: Thank you Megan for having me today. I really appreciate it. 

(24:51) MEGAN: Of course and thank you all, our listeners. Thank you for coming to Pretty Psych. It's pretty amazing, pretty smart. We're so happy that you're listening today. 

(25:04) MEGAN: I hope this conversation has encouraged deep thought as well as helped you draw parallels between therapy and your connection to God, self and others. If you'd like someone on one time with me unpacking some of your most precious life stories to find healing and rest, contact me on mountaincitychristiancounseling.com. To help this podcast reach more people do subscribe and review this podcast and share it with someone who would benefit from healing and rest. My name is Megan Owen and thank you for listening to this episode of Pretty Psych. Catch you next episode and in the meantime do find healing and do find rest.