The Anglican Bishop for HM Prisons, the Right Revd Rachel Treweek, in conversation with John Podmore. In this fifth podcast in the series of 'Holding the Key: Unlocking the door to doing prison differently', John tells us, "We should be locking up people we’re scared of, not mad at."

John was a prison governor and inspector of prisons, and now acts as consultant with a particular interest in human rights and prison anti-corruption.

Bishop Rachel and John discuss potential ways to change the approach to using prisons and sentencing; "We don’t have prison problems, we have community problems."