Hope for Estranged Parents

Episode Summary

Some of the strongest people we know are performing perfectly in public while perishing in private. John Mabry, a self-described comeback extraordinaire, tells his story: a car wreck that took a friend and his leg, a brother lost to an overdose, and an addiction that cost him his marriage and his children’s trust. He shares what brought him back and how he helps others do the same.

About John Mabry

John Clint Mabry, is a self-described comeback extraordinaire, a speaker and coach who works with high-influence, high-profile people who are performing perfectly in public while perishing in private. Born and raised in a Christian family in Texas, John graduated from Baylor University, where he was a communications major on an athletic scholarship.

A car wreck during his senior year took the life of a friend and led to the amputation of his leg below the knee. John went on to earn a graduate degree in counseling in San Diego, work for the Challenged Athletes Foundation, and serve as a technical consultant and “stump double” on the first TV show about the war in Iraq. His screen credits include Superbad and NCIS.

Years of addiction followed, and he lost his marriage, his job, and, for a time, the trust of his three children. Through Celebrate Recovery and a Christ-centered twelve-step group, John found sobriety and rebuilt those relationships. Today he coaches clients through his ninety-day Hero Initiation. You can find him at JohnMabryConnects.com and on Instagram at JohnMabryConnects.

Full Episode Summary

Meeting John (0:58)

Estranged parents carry sadness and depression that stretch over years. So today we cross-train with someone who has lived through his own long road back. John calls himself a comeback extraordinaire, and he starts with a Texas childhood, a grandfather who was a pastor, and a life that looked perfect through his senior year at Baylor.

Seven Seconds (4:14)

On the way home from a cruise with friends, a tire blew out and the car rolled. John crawled out, went back in to help, and watched a friend die. He describes the terror, being forgotten on the roadside, and two and a half hours without pain medicine. I connect that moment to the violence many of us feel when a relationship is suddenly severed.

The First Comeback (10:48)

After fourteen procedures, John chose amputation. Talking with other amputees gave him the confidence to do it, and he walked at graduation six weeks later. Then came San Diego, a counseling degree, and a double life of pills and drinking behind a polished public image.

Performing in Public, Perishing in Private (13:55)

John worked for the Challenged Athletes Foundation, which has been a blessing to my own family through my son Zion’s Paralympic journey. He also worked in Hollywood as a technical consultant and body double. The facade held until it didn’t.

Losing Everything (20:09)

John found his brother dead from an overdose, a man who never shared the silence that was killing him. Later John lost his home, wife, kids, and job. A twelve-year-old son who smelled alcohol on his breath and called his mother changed everything. Seeing himself through his child’s eyes sent him to recovery.

Rebuilding Trust (26:06)

A Navy SEAL friend told John to start with a shower. From there came Celebrate Recovery, a year in a room with nine other men, and doing exactly what the court required. John had to accept that his children were right to draw boundaries, and he leaned on accountability partners instead of walking it alone. He says he had to rebuild trust with himself first.

Recovery Groups and Shame (31:24)

I share what circles like Celebrate Recovery, Samson Society, and Adult Children of Alcoholics and Dysfunctional Families have meant to me. John explains how saying his moral inventory out loud to a stranger loosened shame’s grip. Shame likes the dark, and it keeps coming back like soap scum in the shower.

The Hero Initiation (38:06)

John closes with his ninety-day program built on four daily practices: a little honesty, exercise, rest, and openness. It begins with a seven-minute daily check-in.

Closing Prayer (42:00)

After ten seconds of stillness, John prays for estranged families and for anyone who needs to hear that a comeback is possible.

Resources Mentioned

• JohnMabryConnects.com and JohnMabryConnects on Instagram, Facebook, and TikTok
• John Clint Mabry on IMDb
• “Footloose,” Baylor Magazine (2006), a profile of John’s story, published under the name Clint Mabry
• Celebrate Recovery, a Christ-centered twelve-step program for any hurt, habit, or hang-up
• Samson Society, a recovery fellowship for men
• Adult Children of Alcoholics and Dysfunctional Families
• Challenged Athletes Foundation
• Soberlink, the remote breathalyzer service John used during court-ordered monitoring

Singer-songwriter and pastor Steve Camp talks about “He Covers Me,” the 1986 song that has been a part of my faith journey since coming to Christ in 1984. Steve explains how the song grew out of Romans 5 and the truth that grace abounds more than sin. He unpacks what sanctification is and how it works day by day, tells the story of his divorce, his nine-year wait, and his marriage to Cindy, and shares the song “Head of a Broken Home.” He closes with candid thoughts on parenting adult children (forgiveness, repentance, and an open door at home), then prays for estranged families.

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About Steve Camp

Steve Camp was born April 13, 1955, in Wheaton, Illinois, to Christian parents, and professed faith in Jesus by about age five. As a young believer, he was befriended by Larry Norman, who advised him on singing and songwriting, and was encouraged by Keith Green to commit more fully to ministry through music. He studied musical composition and theory at Roosevelt University and business law and music at the College of DuPage.

Steve’s recording career began in the 1970s. He signed with Myrrh Records in 1977 and released his debut album, Sayin’ It with Love, in 1978. He was also known for causes beyond the stage. In 1985, he organized CAUSE, a project of about 90 Christian artists, to record “Do Something Now,” with proceeds going to Compassion International. The effort earned him the NARAS President’s Merit Award in 1986. He wrote “Martin,” a tribute to Martin Luther King Jr. that was performed by Shirley Caesar and won a Grammy. 

On Reformation Day, October 31, 1998, he issued his own 107 Theses, modeled on Martin Luther’s Ninety-five Theses, calling for reform in the Christian music and publishing industries. The same year, at the invitation of Dr. John MacArthur, he became an associate pastor at Grace Community Church.

Today, Steve pastors a church in Florida and continues to produce music.

Learn more at RealSteveCamp.com.

The Story Behind “He Covers Me”

Steve says most of his songs begin with a portion of Scripture, and this one came from the closing verses of Romans 5, where, as Paul puts it, where sin abounded, grace superabounded. He recalls a saying shared by Reformation-era and Puritan heroes that he and Cindy admire: we are great sinners, but Jesus is a far greater Savior. Grace does not only save us. Romans 5:2 says we stand in grace, and 2 Timothy 2:1 shows Paul urging a frightened Timothy to be empowered by grace from a Roman prison, shortly before his own execution.

What Sanctification Means

Sanctification carries three senses in Scripture, and each means “set apart.” He walks through them:

• Set apart at salvation. Citing 1 Peter 1:2 and 1 Thessalonians 4, he says we are set apart from lawlessness to righteousness and from death to life. We have died once to the penalty of sin.
• Set apart day by day. In real-life terms, we die daily to the power of sin. Citing John 17:17, he says that as we take in Scripture, it molds us after Christ, and the Lord shapes us into His image with His nail-scarred hands.
• Set apart in glory. Citing 1 Thessalonians 5 and 1 Corinthians 13, he says being fully sanctified “in soul, mind, and body” is not this life. It is glorification, when we see Him and are like Him.

When trials, tragedy, or tribulation come, Steve says one of the first responses should be to come before the Lord in brokenness and say that He has allowed this trial to touch a part of our lives in order to conform us further to Christ. He points to Joseph, who endured and trusted God through the process: what they meant for evil, God meant for good.

“Head of a Broken Home”

Mark introduces another song about the family side of divorce and remarriage. It comes from Steve’s record dedicated to John Piper and his work on the chief end of man, which is to glorify God by enjoying Him forever, and it was not supposed to be on the record. Steve tells the story: at midnight, he was mixing the final mix of an independent project with his engineer, Terry Christian. Terry, not a believer at the time, who knew Steve’s former wife, heard the new song, got through the first verse with tears in his eyes, and set up a microphone and piano so Steve could play it live. Then he said, “That’s going on this record.” The song is called “Head of a Broken Home.”

Trusting a Sovereign God

Mark says these stories reflect the core ideas behind his online work and his book. First, we must trust a sovereign God, whose plan is perfect, including His plan for reconciliation, whether on this earth or in eternity. Second, God loves our children infinitely more than we do, and loves us as parents too.

Songs Mentioned in This Episode

1. “He Covers Me” by Steve Camp, from the album One on One (Sparrow, 1986). Written by Steve Camp, Rob Frazier, and John Rosasco. This is the episode’s anchor song.
2. “Head of a Broken Home” by Steve Camp, from the project dedicated to John Piper (Desiring God, 2002). The song was recorded live on piano during the final mix of the independent project.
3. “God Bless the Broken Road” by Rascal Flatts. The song Steve and Cindy chose for the walk down the aisle at their wedding.

Steve Camp Timeline

• 1978: Debut album Sayin’ It with Love (Myrrh Records).
• 1980: Start Believin’ (Myrrh).
• 1981: For Every Man (Myrrh).
• 1983: Myrrh releases the compilation Only the Very Best. Steve signs with Sparrow Records and releases Fire and Ice, which reaches No. 14 on the Billboard Top Inspirational Albums chart. The single “Love’s Not a Feeling” peaks at No. 4 on the CCM chart.
• 1984: It’s a Dying World (Myrrh). Grammy nomination for Best Gospel Performance by a Duo or Group for “Love’s Not a Feeling,” with Michele Pillar.
• 1985: Shake Me to Wake Me, with charting singles including “Stranger to Holiness” (No. 5). Steve organizes CAUSE, a project of about 90 Christian artists, to record “Do Something Now,” with proceeds going to Compassion International.
• 1986: Receives the NARAS President’s Merit Award for “Do Something Now.” Writes “Martin,” a Grammy-winning tribute to Martin Luther King Jr. performed by Shirley Caesar. Performs at the GMA Dove Awards, releases One on One (Sparrow), and appears on the November cover of CCM Magazine.
• 1987: After God’s Own Heart (Sparrow), with three Top 10 singles: “Whatever You Ask” (No. 1), “Come to the Lord” (No. 5), and the title track (No. 3).
• 1988: Dove Award nomination for Rock Album for After God’s Own Heart. Releases the compilation Compact Favorites and his tenth studio album, Justice, which includes a track featuring BeBe Winans.
• 1990: The compilation Doing My Best.
• 1991: Appears on the September cover of CCM Magazine. Releases Consider the Cost and Doing My Best: Volume 2.
• 1993: Taking Heaven by Storm (Warner Alliance), with No. 1 hits including a contemporary version of “The Lord’s Prayer.” Three songs from the album land on a list of the Top 100 Christian AC Hits of 1993.
• 1994: Mercy in the Wilderness (Warner Alliance).
• 1995: The Steve Camp Collection (Sparrow). From 1995 to 1997, Steve hosts the radio talk show No Compromise with Steve Camp.
• 1997: Publishes The 107 Theses, a call for reform in the Contemporary Christian Music industry.
• 1999: Abandoned to God (Ministry Music/Diamante).
• 2002: Desiring God (AudienceOne/Diamante).
• 2005: Launches the Camponthis blog.
• 2007: Steve also releases The Definitive Collection (Word).
• 2009: Ordained as senior pastor of The Cross Church in Palm City, Florida.
• 2024: Releases Neighbors in an Age of Rage.

Timeline adapted from RealSteveCamp.com.

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Mark Whitlock talks with Nashville guitarist and worship leader Rex Paul Schnelle about his new album, Psalms, Hymns, and Spiritual Songs, and its two Psalm 139 songs. They explore God’s inescapable presence, honest prayer, church as a place of healing for estranged parents, and Rex’s two-minute daily devotionals, then close in prayer.

Because God relentlessly pursues us and our estranged children, Psalm 139’s honest prayer, “Search me, O God,” turns brokenness into sacred space where healing and reconciliation can begin.

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About Rex

Rex Paul Schnelle is a Nashville guitarist, producer and songwriter with more than 30 years in Music City, including studio work for Jim Brickman, Trace Adkins and Kelsey Ballerini, a Sony ATV writer/artist deal, and the acclaimed rock album Illumination with Phil Keaggy. A veteran of Philip Sandifer’s band and the CCM group Rushca, he is now worship leader and elder at Crossroads of the Nations Church in Cool Springs, Tennessee, and the artist behind Psalms, Hymns, and Spiritual Songs (2026).

Find Rex’s Sacred Space Devotionals every day at facebook.com/rexpaul.

Summary

Mark Whitlock welcomes longtime friend Rex Paul Schnelle, a Nashville guitarist, songwriter, producer, and worship leader, to talk about his new album, Psalms, Hymns, and Spiritual Songs, featuring Eric Johnson and Phil Keaggy. The project grew out of a crisis of purpose. Moved by the hymn “Take My Life,” he decided to create exclusively for God, repurposed his social media, and joined the staff of Crossroads of the Nations, a multicultural church in Cool Springs, Tennessee, as worship leader and elder. Writing hymns for his congregation, and setting new music to old lyrics such as “Jesus, Lover of My Soul,” became the seed of the record. Mark urges estranged parents to stay plugged into a church, since everyone there has blown it.

A demo from Mike Sayers, reworked with Phil Keaggy, became the album’s opening song, followed by his own “Search Me, Lord, and Know My Heart.” Mark applies the psalm to estranged parents: God pursues us, and he also pursues our adult children wherever they are, even when parents cannot call, text or visit. Rex adds that crying out for help is itself a sign God is at work, and he urges parents to make the Lord their portion, where peace and healing fuel reconciliation.

They also look at the psalm’s sudden turn from anger to “search me.” Drawing on Tim Keller, Rex explains that the gospel holds justice and mercy together, freeing believers to be ambassadors of reconciliation without being responsible for the response. Rex then describes his two-minute daily devotionals, posted six days a week since April 2024 without a miss, built on a short Scripture, a brief prayer and the idea of sacred space. He closes by praying Psalm 139’s final verses over estranged families.

Scripture References

• Psalm 139
• 2 Corinthians 3:17–18 (Rex’s life verse: “with unveiled face, beholding the glory of the Lord, are being transformed”)
• Acts 26 (Paul before Festus: “not only you, but everyone who hears me… except for these chains”)
• Psalm 88 (a psalm that does not resolve) and Psalm 145 (where that thought is finished)
• The Lord’s Prayer (the pattern for Rex’s devotional prayers)

Quoted

• Psalm 16:11 (”fullness of joy… at your right hand are pleasures evermore”)
• Psalm 22:3 (God inhabits the praises of his people, the “sacred space” idea)
• John 14:15–23 (”if you love me, you will obey me… we will come and make our home with you”; the Helper)
• 1 Corinthians 12:3 (no one can say “Jesus is Lord” except by the Holy Spirit)
• Ephesians 2:1 (dead in trespasses and sins)
• 1 Peter 5:7 (casting our cares on him because he cares for us)
• 2 Corinthians 5:20 (ambassadors of reconciliation)
• Romans 6:23 (the wages of sin is death; the gift of God is eternal life)
• Psalm 147:3 or Isaiah 61:1 (he binds the brokenhearted)
• John 7:38 (rivers of living water flowing from within)
• Psalm 51:10 (”create within us clean hearts, renew within us steadfast spirits”)
• Romans 8 (”nothing will separate us”; life to our mortal bodies)

Other Works Mentioned

• Psalms, Hymns, and Spiritual Songs, Rex Paul’s new album (2026), with Eric Johnson and Phil Keaggy
• Illumination, Rex Paul and Phil Keaggy (about 2019)
• Randy Stonehill tribute record, There’s a Rainbow Somewhere (Rex and Phil Keaggy played on a track; title not given)
• “Search Me, Lord” (Rex’s song from Psalm 139)
• “Cathedral of the Heart” (album track)
• Psalm 139
• “Jesus, Lover of My Soul”
• Rex’s two-minute daily devotionals
• Crossroads of the Nations Church and its free English-language classes, Cool Springs, Tennessee
• Mark’s Substack, where the devotions, prayers, readings, and movie and music reviews live.

Episode Summary

How do you build empathy for a child who has cut you off? Kyle Turner is a licensed professional counselor who has spent more than 20 years working with estranged parents and estranged adult children. He joins Mark Whitlock to look at what may be going on in the hearts of our beloved strangers. Kyle walks through five self-examination questions drawn from The Anatomy of Peace. He explains why validation isn't the same as agreement and shows the difference between a healthy boundary and an ultimatum. He also shares what estranged children have told him in counseling, and he offers hope to parents who are still waiting, along with permission to grieve.

Reach Mark at hopeforestrangedparents.com

Reach Kyle at kyleturnercounseling.com

We pray for every estranged child and parent. If you would like for us to pray by name, please leave a comment or send a private message at Mark's website.

About Kyle Turner

Kyle Turner has worked as a counselor in the Nashville area for longer than 20 years. He works with individuals dealing with the effects of trauma, couples in crisis, and families struggling to connect.

One of Kyle's favorite parts of his work is watching the tragedies of life become resilience, character, and hope in his clients' lives. He considers it an honor and a privilege to help people find their way out of dark places and toward hope.

His approach

Kyle's approach to counseling is practical and personal. His clients describe his style as conversational rather than clinical, and he agrees. He tries to be himself in sessions and lets his clients be themselves. He provides individual, marital, and family counseling, drawing on Internal Family Systems (IFS), eye movement desensitization and reprocessing (EMDR), and cognitive behavioral therapy (CBT).

Resources Mentioned

• The Anatomy of Peace: Resolving the Heart of Conflict by the Arbinger Institute (Kyle names C. Terry Warner as the main mind behind it). Mark recommends the audiobook.
• John and Julie Gottman's "Four Horsemen" research, plus their videos on YouTube
• Boundaries, by Henry Cloud and John Townsend
• Matthew 7:3–5, the speck and the plank
• Mark's recent devotional on the plank-and-eye principle, "What's in My Eye?"
• Mark's earlier interview with betrayal counselor Kirsten Samuel, "How Children React ot Hard News"
• Hope for Estranged Parents: wmarkwhitlock.substack.com
• Prayer offer: Mark and Heather pray for every parent who shares their story with them.

FULL EPISODE SUMMARY

Start with Your Own Heart
Kyle starts with The Anatomy of Peace from the Arbinger Institute. The book's main idea is that conflict starts in the heart, before any words are spoken. A "heart at war" turns the other person into an object: the jerk, the problem, the ungrateful kid. A "heart at peace" sees them as someone who matters just as much as we do. In estrangement, Kyle says, conflict is a given, so the work begins with us. How is my heart toward my child right now?

Five questions for self-examination
Kyle paraphrases five questions from the book:

1. How are you hurting? What are your struggles?
2. How have I added to that pain?
3. How have I hurt you in the past? (Is there a pattern?)
4. What am I doing now that gets in the way of resolution? How am I "warring" with you?
5. What should I be doing now? Then do it.

If we answer the first four honestly, Kyle says, our hearts should be at or near peace, and the fifth question points to the next step.

Why Looking Inward is so Hard
Mark connects this to Jesus's teaching in Matthew 7 about the speck and the plank, which is also the subject of a recent devotion of his. Kyle explains that our view is limited. We know our own hurt, we dig in on our side of the coin, and above all we want to be heard. When we don't feel heard, we get defensive.

SEE THE DEVOTIONAL, "WHAT'S IN YOUR EYE?"

When You Don't Know What You Did
Many parents tell Mark they have no idea what caused the rift. Kyle suggests asking for outside perspective. Trusted friends and family, or even your child's close friends, may be able to shed light on what you can't see.

When You Feel Falsely Accused
Kyle introduces the "Four Horsemen" from relationship researchers John and Julie Gottman. One of the four is defensiveness, which usually shows up in response to criticism. The antidote is to "own what you can own," even if that isn't the whole thing. He tells the Gottmans' lunch story to show how a gentle "I" statement and a small act of ownership can calm a tense moment. The formula is: "I feel this when you do this, and I'd really like it if…"

Preparing for the Coffee Meeting
If a reconciliation meeting happens, walk in with your heart as close to peace as possible. The goal of a first meeting isn't to settle everything. It's to make the time safe for both of you. Be willing to go first in being vulnerable: "I'm glad we're here. I love you. Let's catch up."

When the Conversation Takes a Hard Turn
Mark describes an email from a father whose son brought a harsh letter listing his accusations. Kyle offers two tools. The first is the "give me a minute" button: say you're overwhelmed and ask to pause or meet again. The second is validation, which he defines carefully: "Validation is not 'I agree with you.' Validation is, 'If I'm looking at things from your perspective, I can see how you'd feel that way.'" People keep repeating themselves until they feel heard.

Boundaries Versus Ultimatums
Kyle defines a boundary as "this is as far as I'm willing to go." Its purpose is to keep a relationship healthy. An ultimatum is built to cut the relationship off. "Please stop calling me names so we can have a different conversation" is a boundary. "If you call me names again, I'm never speaking to you" is an ultimatum. Kyle believes boundaries often get weaponized because walking away is easier than doing the hard work of processing hurt.

When a Boundary Feels Unfair
Kyle shares two stories (details anonymized) of boundaries that felt extreme to the parent but led to reconnection:

• An adult daughter limited contact with her mother to email for six months, then to phone calls with clear rules about name-calling and shaming. Within about a year and a half, they were meeting face to face, and they kept seeing each other regularly until the mother died.
• A daughter wouldn't spend time with her mother while the stepfather was present. The mother accepted that boundary, and they rebuilt the relationship around birthdays and holidays.

He also notes that when there's a history of abuse, and especially when a parent stayed with the abuser, the boundaries tend to be firmer and longer-lasting.

Repentance, Reciprocity, and What Estranged Children Feel
Reconciliation goes both ways. When both sides own their part, there's a path forward. When either side refuses, things stay stuck. Kyle says that, in his experience, estranged children almost always long to connect with their parents, even those who were badly hurt. Some may not have the tools yet. Others are holding on to a "heart at war" that will have to soften first.

Stay Hopeful, and Let Yourself Grieve
Kyle closes with hope. He has seen children come back, sometimes decades later. If that doesn't happen, he encourages parents to sit with their grief, because grief honors who you know your child to be.

Three Core Principles
Mark restates the show's foundations:

1. God is sovereign and at work in our children's lives.
2. God loves our kids far more than we can, and He loves us, too.
3. We never stop being parents, and the most important thing we can do is pray.

Closing Prayer

When the road is long, and the silence is heavy, we need someone to put an arm around our shoulders. Pastor, author, and ministry leader Bob Reccord has walked through a runaway child and his wife’s cancer. On this episode, he walks with us down the road of estrangement using the Scriptures as signposts along the way. He helps us see that silence does not mean God is absent. And, he offers us two questions that can shape what’s ahead.

About Bob Reccord

Dr. Bob Reccord and his wife, Cheryl, founded and lead Total Life Impact. Bob is a frequent speaker at men’s conferences, marriage conferences, and wild game dinners. He was tapped by Bill McCartney to give the evangelistic presentation at all of the Promise Keepers events in 2006. He is a past president of Hope for the Heart, the Plano, Texas, ministry featuring the work of June Hunt.

Many of us know Bob as the founding president of the Southern Baptist Convention’s North American Mission Board. Under his leadership, the volunteer base grew by thousands, and millions more dollars flowed to disaster relief.

Bob’s own story began with hardship. His mother died when he was eleven months old, and his alcoholic father did not want him or his brothers. He was passed from home to home before being adopted. Above all, Bob is an encourager, the kind of person you leave feeling a couple of inches taller.

Bob and Cheryl are available for speaking and ministry opportunities. Contact them at Total Life Impact’s website.

Bob’s Resources

Ending the Cycle of Father Wounds
Bob Reccord with Rick Fowler

Even unintentional Father Wounds can follow us from one season of life to the next. Bob Reccord carried them himself and is determined to end the cycle. Whether you’re a father, stepfather, or grandfather, discover practical steps to identify, heal, and prevent these wounds.

Available here

Made to Count
Bob Reccord and Randy Singer

We all long to leave the world and the people in it better than we found them. Made to Count confronts the fear that our lives won't matter. Reccord and Singer share eight biblical principles and true stories to help you discover His specific plan for you. The book uses the DiSC inventory methodology to assist the process.

Available here

Episode Summary

Dr. Bob Reccord puts his arm around our shoulders and shepherds us down the road. He reminds us there is real hope.

He walks us through Isaiah 43:1–3. God calls us by name, holds us in His hand, and promises to be with us in deep water and fire.

I asked Bob about the labels we carry, the hurtful ones that stick to our hearts. He pointed us to Psalm 139. Only the Lord sees us for who we really are, and there is nowhere we can go that He isn’t already there.

I confessed that as estranged parents, we often want to give up. Bob shows us our fears in John the Baptist’s story. When John was sitting in prison, he sent word to Jesus asking whether He was really the Messiah. Jesus didn’t rebuke him. He pointed to the evidence and said that the one who does not fall away is blessed. God is still trustworthy when the circumstances don’t meet our timetable.

Bob pulls back the curtain on the story of his estranged child. And then he walks us through his wife’s cancer diagnosis.

With his child, he had a choice: set the record straight and be right, or pursue a relationship that needed restoring. Today they have a “fabulous” relationship.

Bob said most “why” questions won’t be answered this side of eternity. Two “what” questions are essential: Lord, what do You want me to learn in this? and What do You need to change in me through this? I’ve found that those questions are where healing starts for parents like us.

Bob pointed us to David and Absalom in Psalms 3 and 55, and to Jeremiah 33:3, where God invites us to call on Him in our hurt. He also took us to Psalm 19, which shows what Scripture does for a hurting soul. His last passage was Philippians 4:6–7, written by a man in prison.

Bob closed by praying for parents, grandparents, and siblings. Silent does not mean absent.

Scripture Passages

• Psalm 3
• Psalm 19:7–11
• Psalm 55
• Psalm 139
• Proverbs 22:6
• Isaiah 43:1–3
• Jeremiah 33:3
• Matthew 11
• Luke 15
• Philippians 4:6–7

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Therapist and estrangement coach Roberta Wasserman joins Mark Whitlock to talk about her workbook, Living in the Land of Estrangement: 12 Step Workbook for Estranged Parents and Grandparents. She adapts the classic Twelve Steps for parents and grandparents living with an emotional cutoff from their adult children. They discuss grief as the path to acceptance, how to take an honest parental inventory, who to trust with it, and what “making amends” means when contact isn’t possible.

About Our Guest

Roberta Wasserman, LCSW-C, is a trauma-informed therapist, coach, and consultant with more than two decades of clinical experience. She focuses on family estrangement, grief, trauma, and couples work. She was among the first family estrangement coaches certified by Dr. Joshua Coleman. She is also a certified grief educator trained with David Kessler and is fully trained in the Gottman Method. She draws on both personal and professional experience in her work.

The Twelve Steps for Estranged Parents

1. Naming Reality. We admitted that we are powerless over our adult child’s choices and that our lives have become unmanageable through grief, fear, or obsession with repair.
2. Restoring Hope without Illusion. We came to believe that healing, whether reconciliation occurs or not, is possible through support, truth, and self-examination.
3. Releasing Control. We made a decision to release control over our adult child’s narrative and timing and to place our trust in a process of growth we do not fully command.
4. Courageous Parental Inventory. We made a searching and honest inventory of our parenting: our intentions, our limitations, our wounds, our blind spots, and the impact of our actions.
5. Witnessing Truth. We shared this inventory with a trusted other, taking responsibility for harm without collapsing into shame or self-defense.
6. Readiness to Change. We became ready to release parental behaviors that no longer serve: defensiveness, minimization, entitlement, overfunctioning, or emotional withdrawal.
7. Practiced Humility. We humbly sought to grow beyond our limitations, recognizing that repair requires change, not persuasion.
8. Relational Accountability. We made a list of the ways our actions may have caused harm and became willing to make amends where appropriate and safe to do so.
9. Making Amends without Agenda. We made direct amends when possible, without pressure, self-exoneration, or expectation of reconciliation, except when doing so would cause further harm.
10. Ongoing Self-Reflection. We continued to examine our reactions, especially entitlement, victimhood, or resentment, and took responsibility when we were wrong.
11. Inner Regulation and Wisdom. We sought greater emotional regulation, self-soothing, and discernment through reflection, prayer, therapy, or mindfulness, learning when to act and when to wait.
12. Compassionate Service. Having experienced growth, we offered support to other estranged parents without fueling blame, ideology, or grievance and committed to breaking intergenerational patterns.

From Living in the Land of Estrangement by Roberta Wasserman, LCSW-C. Used by permission.

Links and Resources

Roberta Wasserman

• Living in the Land of Estrangement: 12 Step Workbook for Estranged Parents and Grandparents
• Roberta’s Substack: https://robertawasserman.substack.com/subscribe
• Roberta’s practice: https://www.robertawassermanlcsw-c.com/

Support Organizations

• Parents of Estranged Adult Children International (P.E.A.C.) A free support group with meetings throughout the week. Registration is required to receive meeting links. Roberta speaks monthly on the workbook’s step of the month.
• Alienated Grandparents Anonymous (AGA)
• Alcoholics Anonymous
• Al-Anon Family Groups

People and Resources Mentioned

• Dr. Joshua Coleman, author of Rules of Estrangement (His excellent Substack)
• David Kessler, grief expert
• The Gottman Method
• Elisabeth Kübler-Ross, whose stages of grief Mark and Roberta discuss

Mark Whitlock

• Mark’s Substack (devotions, prayers, reviews, and more for estranged parents)

Thanks for reading Hope for Estranged Christian Parents - W. Mark Whitlock! Subscribe for free to receive new posts and support my work.

Music licensed through Soundstripe. Code: ZKI2EA2KWKSK7WEI

Estranged Parents long for peace. It eludes us, especially in the early morning when the house is quiet or after we turn off the lights at night. Peace is disrupted when objects, photos, songs, or sounds remind us of our beloved strangers.

That’s why peace rises us as a central theme in the forthcoming book, Beloved Strangers: Devotions and Prayers for Estranged Parents.

On this episode of the podcast, Wayne Watson and I talk about:

• Peace
• Fatherhood
• Prayer
• and of course, his music

His 1985 classic, “Peace that Passes Understanding,” will be a core song recommendation in the devotional.

Personal Connection

Wayne Watson loomed large in my LP, and later CD, collection in high school and college. Musically, his vocal power and the chord progressions he built in his songs created powerhouse anthems and contemplative ballads that I could listen to again and again.

In 1987, I traveled to Estes Park, Colorado to attend the Christian Artists Music Seminar. Wayne performed in concert, led worship, and presented a seminar on connecting with an audience. I attended every session he was involved in. During his evening concert, he mentioned that one of his sons was sick in his intro to the song “Watercolour Ponies.” (That album would go on to win the Dove Award for Pop Contemporary Album of the Year.)

The next morning, I found an early seat for the worship service, as did several others. I didn’t realize that Wayne’s family was there. Wayne emerged from the green room chatting with another artist, and then he saw his son. He made a bee line straight toward him, fell to his knees, and spent several minutes with him as if the rest of the world didn’t exist.

The care and attention he gave his son inspired me and I remember thinking, If I ever get to be a dad, I hope I can be as tender as him.

Brief Biography

Wayne has produced 23 #1 singles on Christian radio, including the most played song on Christian radio in 1991. Wayne is a member of The Christian Music Hall of Fame and has memorabilia on display at the Museum of Christian and Gospel Music in Nashville, Tenn.

Wayne has two grown sons and an adopted teenage son plus six grandchildren. He and his wife Meagan live in Texas.

Wayne’s Podcast | Support Wayne’s Work through ACT International

First Wayne Watson Podcast Episodes to Listen to:

Michael Omartian
Still Something to Say
From the Continental Singers to Focus on the Fmaily: Chuck Bolte’s Story

The Story Behind the Song: “Peace that Passes Understanding”

Wayne tells the story behind the moment he felt peace that didn’t make any sense.

Listen at about 9:30 into the interview

Songs Mentioned in the Episode

“Peace that Passes Understanding”
“Watercolour Ponies”
“Somewhere in the World”
“When God’s People Pray”
“Pray”
“Turning into Dad”
“For Such a Time as This”
“Another Time, Another Place” | “Tonight Show” Appearance
“Giants in the Land”

Fatherhood

Wayne was very close to his father.

Be sure to listen to the “pouch story at about 19 minutes into the interview

He wrote this song about his dad in 2000.

Regarding Baseball

Wayne loved baseball and was given a chance to play in college but involved himself in other matters. His son, Mayer, recently got to play in a U12 baseball tournament near the Baseball Hall of Fame in Cooperstown, NY.

Listen at about 4 minutes into the interview.

My father also had baseball ties. For more on that, read this reflection.

Wayne’s Awards

Dove Awards

• 1989 — Song of the Year, “Friend of a Wounded Heart” (co-written with Claire Cloninger)
• 1989 — Male Vocalist of the Year
• 1988 — Pop Contemporary Song of the Year, for Watercolour Ponies
• 1988 — Contemporary Album of the Year, for Watercolour Ponies
• 1992 — Pop/Contemporary Song of the Year, for “Home Free”

Grammys: Wayne has been nominated for two Grammy Awards and won one

• 1988 — Best Male Gospel Performance, for Watercolour Ponies
• 1993 — Best Pop Gospel Album, for A Beautiful Place

He shares a Grammy win as part of the various-artists project Tribute – The Songs of Andraé Crouch (1996).

We talk with author and betrayal coach Kirsten Samuel about what happens to children when a marriage betrayal is disclosed and why those emotions can surface later as distance or estrangement. We wrestle with truth-telling, daily choices to love, and how surrender replaces control when you cannot fix what is broken. 

• Kirsten’s story of discovering her husband's pornography at the 25-year mark. 
• The first steps after disclosure and why “this does not have to be fatal.” 
• Why what you tell your children depends on age, relationship, and unity. 
• Refusing to use honesty as a weapon and avoiding “I’m sorry, but.” 
• Creating stability through vulnerability and ongoing access to questions.
• Recovery as a spiral rather than a straight line.
• A season of estrangement and the discipline of not forcing contact.
• Choosing love as an act of the will while still naming pain. 
• Staying allies as spouses and remembering who the real enemy is. 
• Surrendering control and letting go of image management.

You can schedule a free coaching session on Kirsten's website.

Pastor, author, and broadcaster Bob Lepine reminds us that when Pauls said, “And now I will show you the most excellent way,” he was about to rebuke us.

Please watch this honest, compassionate, and at times, fun conversation with Bob.

Did you skip over the video to keep reading? That’s okay. Just be sure to go back and watch or listen to the entire thing. Below Bob’s bio are my favorite moments from our interview.

Bob Lepine co-hosted and shaped “FamilyLife Today” with Dennis Rainey for nearly 30 years building it to one of the most influential daily radio programs. But away fro the studio, Bob was much more than that: Bible student, content guru, product ideator, Elvis impersonator, and the kind of leader you would follow anywhere.

Since his retirement from his daily radio duties, Bob continues to be a sage within the National Religious Broadcasters, serves as Chairman of the Board of Revive our Hearts (a ministry led by Nancy DeMoss Wolgemuth), hosts mornings on Family Radio, and is the voice who frames and contextualizes for the radio audience the preaching of Alistair Begg on “Truth for Life.”

He and his wife MaryAnn have been married for 47 years and counting and enjoy cheering on their five children and eleven grandchildren.

For me, Bob Lepine is the man—other than my father—who’s had the greatest impact on my life.

Quotes from the Podcast Episode
from Bob Lepine

On the Topic of Estrangement

I’m so glad that you are going deep and tackling this subject and helping parents. As I travel and have the opportunity to speak, this is the question that I get most often from people who are wanting marriage or family issues addressed. They’re telling me about the heartache of children, whether they’re estranged from those children or whether they’re just in a fractured relationship because the kids have gone in a different direction. culturally, theologically, politically, and it’s created a deep divide among parents. And so I know that the the need is great. I’m so glad you’re addressing it.

Anything minus love equals nothing.

C.S. Lewis’ Four Loves

We’re served well by C. S. Lewis, who years ago wrote the book The Four Loves and looked at these four words in the Greek that describe love. And often times in in the context of what we’re talking about, our focus is on storge. It’s that family bonding, that love that God has put in our hearts for those who we are connected to either through biology or through adoption. There is something unique about that kind of bond and that kind of relationship that is transcendent.

And then of course there’s philia, which is the the friendship love that is talked about. where David and Jonathan had a deep bonded love. It was like brotherly love. It was like storge, but it was it in in some ways that kind of philia love can can sometimes go deeper even than storge. But there’s a connectedness in storge that you just can’t find anywhere else. Of course there’s eros, which is romantic love or sexual love, and then agape, which is the love that that Jesus demonstrates for us, which is a sacrificial, self-emptying love that puts the needs of others ahead of our own needs and says, I will sacrifice for your good. That’s the kind of love that’s being talked about in First Corinthians thirteen, the prioritization of others ahead of yourself.

The Numbness of Estrangement

I was thinking when it when there’s an estranged relationship or when there’s a fractured relationship like you’re talking about, it’s a little like a part of your body has become numb, a part of you has become paralyzed, because your kids are a part of you. So in a fully functioning body and relationship, everything works. There are parts of your body that are functioning but you’re not thinking about at the moment. But if a part of your body is paralyzed, there’s just something that you have to learn how to adjust to the new normal and how to make life work with something that you know should be functioning.

Is it amputation or is it paralysis? It’s not amputation, because you don’t lose a child when you’re estranged from a child. But there is a paralyzed relationship and it doesn’t function the way it should, and you long for that to be restored because there’s a storge in your heart.

Love is What?

You could be in a room with a hundred people, and if you said, “I want you to fill in the blank: love is what?” And invite your audience to fill in the blank with whatever they want to fill in the blank with. I would guess that out of a hundred people you’d get zero, maybe one, who would say first thing, love is patient.

And yet that’s where the Apostle Paul starts on his list. And if you’ve got a King James (translation), you know that patient is just a word that we have prettied up from the original, which means love is long suffering. Love suffereth long. Now, who in their right mind thinks when I think of love, I think of suffering for a long time? But for parents of estranged kids? That’s perfect explanation, perfect illustration. Yeah.

This interview with Bob Lepine is too rich not to share. Who do you know who needs to hear it?

On Boundarie

An adult child says, “Don’t call me.” That’s that’s a boundary. “Don’t text me.” That’s a boundary.

If you say, “Well, I’m gonna keep texting you,” what you’re saying instead is “I’m gonna ignore what you’re asking me to do.” And that’s gonna be problematic. They’re gonna block you more. They’re gonna do whatever they can so that you have to respect what they’re asking you to do.

So, I think we have to pull back and say, “Okay, how can I manifest my love for my estranged child? How can I be patient, persevere in love, respect what they’re looking for, but still demonstrate that the love is there? How can I not become rude, not become angry, not become bitter, not become self-seeking, not insisting on your my way or keeping a record of wrongs?”

All of these things that are listed here in First Corinthians 13 are things we have to go through and say, “If I’m gonna demonstrate real love to my estranged child, I have to make sure that I’m not guilty of keeping a record of wrongs. I have to make sure that I’m not guilty of being rude or inconsiderate, those kinds of things.”

What “Keeping a Record of Wrongs” Actually Means
When we forgive one another, this is a part of what keeping not keeping a record of wrongs means. It means that we are going to either overlook an offense, pour grace on it. “It’s a man’s glory to overlook an offense” (Proverbs 19:11). “Love covers a multitude of sins” (1 Peter 4:8).

And so in some cases, these offenses of the past, we’re going to pour grace on those and we’re going to release them. We’re not going to bring them up again. We’re not going to—even for clarification purposes. We’re going to say, “Think of what God does with our sin?”

God says, “I have put your sin as far as the east is from the west” (Psalm 103:12). “I’ve put it behind my back where I can’t see it” (Isaiah 38:17). “I put it at the bottom of the sea where you can’t go get it” (Micah 7:19). The omniscient God says, “I will remember your sin no more” (Jeremiah 31:34) And so when we forgive a sin, we’re saying, “I’m not going to bring this up again.”

Now you you may say, “Well, there’s a need for clarification. There’s a need for confrontation or for healing.”

My definition of forgiveness is “giving up the right to punish another person.” We’re releasing that right. I have no right to punish you. But sometimes in rebuilding trust, which is different than forgiveness, for forgiveness can happen, but trust needs to be real rebuilt over a period of time. “I don’t hold the sin against you, but I don’t fully trust you because of past behavior,” right? So how do we rebuild trust? You rebuild trust with consistent behavior over time. And sometimes in the rebuilding of trust, you have to go in and you have to you have to talk about things from the past. So that’s got to be able to be talked about in a context where the person who has been forgiven understands. I don’t hold this against you anymore. I’m not bringing this up as a weapon, but keep in mind anytime you bring it up, you’re you’re touching an old scar, an old wound.

You’ve gotta approach those things carefully. You may have to ask permission. “I’d like to revisit this event from the past to try to bring some closure to it.” But you may that may be too raw for you. you tell me whether we can revisit that. It’s it’s getting that kind of permission to go there.

Can I Still Love My Child?
When you say, “I just don’t have it in me to love this child,” my my friend Dave Wilson always liked to say in the context of marriage, he would say, “If there’s a problem here (horizontal), there’s a problem here (vertical). So if there’s a problem in a horizontal relationship, you need to fix the vertical relationship. You need God to pour his love into you and then let his love be the outflow in your love to your child.

Estrangement can turn a living child into a “beloved stranger,” and few accusations cut deeper than “You’re a hypocrite.” We sit down with Pastor Matt Mason from the Church of Brook Hills to open Mark 7:1-13 and let Jesus’ hard words do their honest work, not to crush us, but to bring us back to a faith that is real on the inside, not just polished on the outside.

We walk through the Pharisees, the traditions that replaced God’s commands, and the Corban example where spiritual language becomes a loophole for neglect. Matt helps us name a kind of hypocrisy that can hide in plain sight: lives that look right while our hearts drift from delight in God, dependence on God, and love for God. That leads to a question we never outgrow as Christians and as parents: Have we lost our first love, and are we confusing helpful wisdom with divine imperatives we force on ourselves and our families?

From there, the conversation gets personal and pastoral. We talk about the trial-and-error of parenting, the grace of apologizing, and the sobering truth that sometimes the best move we have is to pray when we cannot coach, correct, or control. We also spend time on grief, especially the unique grief of estrangement, and why the Psalms can feel like a warm blanket when Bible words stop landing. We close with prayer from Psalm 3, asking God to shield anxious minds, lift heavy heads, and do the reconciliation only He can do.

If you’re an estranged parent looking for biblical encouragement, Christian parenting clarity, and hope for reconciliation, listen through to the end, then subscribe, share with a friend who needs it, and leave a review so more families can find these conversations.