Joel first met Phil Sanders, Founder & CEO of Multiply, after hearing him speak at a conference—and instantly knew they were wired the same way.

In this episode of Making the Brand, Phil gets real about what entrepreneurship actually looks like (and what it definitely doesn’t). No fluff. Just honest, hard-earned insights on building, scaling, and staying sane along the way.

Tune in for an unfiltered conversation about leadership, growth, and the mindset it takes to build something that lasts.