In the late ’80s to early 2000s, the NSA transitioned from being a hardware-first organization - that is, creating and operating physical spying devices - to software-first: excelling in hacking networks, tracking people online, etc. That transition was by no means easy: the NSA, by that point, was a huge organization - and big organizations are notorious for being very resistant to change. Jeff Man, our guest today, was one of the first people at the NSA to make the transition from hardware to software, and he shares with us his experiences from that period.