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How TikTok Is Changing America’s Gen Z
A Chinese platform that sounds like a children's game has become the platform Gen Z can't live without. We grilled a longtime devotee to find out how and why, exactly.
Tom Kagy (00:00)
Hello, this is Tom Kagy for Unconventional Wisdom. Today we have Kelli Liu, who is an expert on TikTok. I think she's a serious TikToker and probably knows just about everything that we could want to know about TikTok. Hi Kelli, how are you?
Kelli Luu (00:16)
Hi, thanks. Thank you for speaking with me.
Tom Kagy (00:18)
What I want to find out is why TikTok has essentially taken over the social media scene. It sounds like not just in the US, but pretty much around the world. Okay, so is this a phenomenon that's limited to people like you? By that I mean Gen Z, or is this something that is bigger than that?
Kelli Luu (00:29)
Yeah, it definitely has.
I definitely think it's targeted towards Gen Z, a Gen Z audience. I think our attention span is definitely a lot shorter. So the TikTok gives us a quick peek into the video rather than, whereas on YouTube, there's a much longer, people who are watching on YouTube, they have a much longer attention span. a lot of people, millennials, they grew up with YouTube and…
They grew up watching these longer videos, but as time shifted, a lot of the newer generation is kind of hopping onto TikTok, because you can just learn things really fast. In a minute, you can learn the whole recipe, or in 30 seconds, you can learn a whole recipe. So I definitely think it's targeted definitely more towards Gen Z.
Tom Kagy (01:26)
So my impression of TikTok based on my very limited contact with it is that it's mainly like people doing goofy dances and animals, you know, doing cute things or people caught in very awkward situations, things like that.
But you're suggesting that there's actually a lot of how-to.
Kelli Luu (01:44)
Oh yeah, I think TikTok is a really good way to learn pretty much almost anything. Chef course, you can go and do a Google search on how to do it, but you're have to find the right article. You're gonna have to read through how to exactly do it. But if you just go on TikTok and you search up how to cook rice, if you were trying to just learn how to make some rice, then you could easily do it and there's a visual.
the video's not going to be that long. on TikTok, longer videos actually do worse than shorter, faster clips. with these how-to videos, they're like super fast. They're 30 seconds or a minute, and you can learn basically whatever task it is you need to learn within that time.
Tom Kagy (02:26)
So is there pretty much the same kind of content as YouTube or is there kind of a difference in the focus of the content?
Kelli Luu (02:34)
Yeah, I would say it's pretty much like the same content like on YouTube there's makeup tutorials. There's prank videos. There's a story time stuff like that, but on tik-tok it's kind of just shortened a lot because it's a lot easier to hop on to tik-tok on your phone and watch a video than it is to hop on your phone and watch YouTube I feel like so you definitely are going to be able to just
learn something really fast on TikTok, whereas on YouTube it'll be like a 10 minute video.
Tom Kagy (03:03)
but there's no real difference in the kind of content that both platforms have.
Kelli Luu (03:08)
I wouldn't say as for the topic. I think the topics are all pretty similar. It's really like the length of how detailed you want it to be in. Or I think it also depends on the person's niche. So the uploader's niche, whatever. If they have a fan base that really likes to follow what they like to do every day or somebody who is a gym influencer and they're trying to show off their entire workout routine.
Sometimes maybe you can't show all the tips and tricks in a TikTok video, so they'll move their platform, they'll move videos onto YouTube so they have more time to really sit down and explain everything that they're doing.
Tom Kagy (03:45)
Okay, so there is an overlap between TikTok and YouTube.
Kelli Luu (03:49)
Oh yeah, think if you have a pretty good fan base on TikTok, I think it's a lot easier to switch over to YouTube after gaining a fan base on TikTok, yeah.
Tom Kagy (03:59)
Is that a common strategy to try to develop a new fan base on TikTok and then shift to YouTube?
Kelli Luu (04:06)
yeah, for sure. Because once you have a fan base on TikTok, you have these people who are really interested in what you're doing. And so they want to see more of you. And those people who want to see more of you, they're going to go check out your YouTube and see the longer videos.
Tom Kagy (04:21)
But why can't you just stay on TikTok and have longer videos on TikTok?
Kelli Luu (04:25)
the attention span of the users on TikTok. So when somebody is planning on going on TikTok, they're planning on watching a quick video. They're not planning on watching a five to 10 minute video about anything. That's what people go to YouTube for. So a lot of people, it's like a joke to, they need to watch something when they are eating their meal. So people will use YouTube to, they're not really gonna go on TikTok because you have to scroll on TikTok. These videos are really short, so you have to keep scrolling, but.
YouTube, you're expecting a long video, so you're more likely to just to actually watch the whole video on YouTube than you are on TikTok.
Tom Kagy (05:00)
Okay, so you don't have to put your chopsticks down to watch different videos. Okay, so I mean, from what I'm hearing, it sounds like it's mainly a question of length of the videos. Are there other factors that have made TikTok so popular?
Kelli Luu (05:03)
Exactly.
well right now, definitely with TikTok shop booming, I think that is a big thing that has been attracting a lot of people to TikTok shop. It's like basically a shopping app now, or it's basically, I would even say it's almost like a review app where you can go see people's real,
real reactions to a certain product and how much they like it or how people are using it in their everyday life. So I think that kind of draws people into it, the fact that you can shop on it. And then just the relatability on TikTok as well. You have so many people who are posting videos every day and there's so much content that's relatable. Somebody can post a video and they're just ranting about something and it could be something that you completely agree with.
Just seeing that things like that on TikTok, I think really builds kind of like a community. There's a bunch of different communities on TikTok. So that is a big aspect of it too, of why it's so popular.
Tom Kagy (06:11)
Okay, so you touched on two things. One is the relatability, the fact that you have people that are sharing views that are, I guess, more commonly shared by Gen Z, right? And the other is that it's become a shopping platform. Now, on the shopping platform part of it, are we talking about something that rivals Amazon or are we
Kelli Luu (06:22)
Mm-hmm.
Tom Kagy (06:33)
talking about just an occasional TikTokker who happens to have come up with the bright idea to sell a certain product.
Kelli Luu (06:39)
Yeah, I think it definitely is going is rivaling Amazon right now for sure because Anybody could sell on tik-tok so you don't just have to be a tik-tok influencer or creator Brands all brands can sell on tik-tok The most popular a lot of popular brands Maybelline Murad all of these are on tik-tok now too because they're noticing a shift change and the demographic has a lot of
younger girls are being influenced by certain products and they are more likely to purchase if they're watching a video on TikTok than if they were just have to look it up on Amazon. they're drawing this audience that they don't have to leave TikTok to go and look for another platform to shop for this item. So these people, these influencers, they're posting a video of this skincare product and you don't have to
go somewhere else to go look for it. can be linked right there in that video. And it's social media, so people are already just already on the app and it makes it just 10 times easier. I think people really like that idea. And then also just the interaction, think a lot of a big part about TikTok is interacting with your followers and interacting with whoever is commenting on your videos and stuff. So all of that too.
plays a part into the whole TikTok shop thing because people are trying to get their videos seen and social media is the perfect way to get your products seen.
Tom Kagy (08:04)
So let's say you see an influencer post something about a product. So you would just click and then that would take you to TikTok shop. Is that how it's organized?
Kelli Luu (08:15)
Yes, as long as that product is on TikTok Shop, which a lot of products are on TikTok Shop now. So TikTok actually has affiliate programs. So there's a lot of different ways to monetize if you are a creator on TikTok. I'm speaking from a creator standpoint. So you could be a TikTok affiliate, which is…
Tom Kagy (08:21)
Okay.
Kelli Luu (08:37)
you have to have a certain amount of followers and you're able to join a certain program that's directly with TikTok. And that allows you to get connected with different brands that are on TikTok shop and they will send you free samples and you have to in return make a video for them to keep up on your page.
Tom Kagy (08:56)
So what do you get out of it?
Kelli Luu (08:58)
So the creator gets commissioned. So every brand sends you a brief, and the brief will say what your commission rate is. Honestly, the commission rates are very, good on TikTok Shop. So they're around 10 to 30%. I've seen probably even 40 % commission on TikTok Shop. So it just depends on the product and where you're selling, what region you're in.
Tom Kagy (09:24)
Okay, so these, when you get accredited or accepted as an affiliate, you're essentially sort of a sales, you're authorized to be a sales agent for brands that are on TikTok.
Kelli Luu (09:35)
Pretty much, yeah, you have an agreement with them. then once they, either you could apply for samples, so you can even go onto the TikTok shop yourself, and let's say you're a beauty creator and there's this viral mascara that's going around right now. You can apply to have them send that to you, and if they accept your application, then they'll send it to you for free, and all you have to do is just make a video for them.
And then after that, sales you generate from that video, then you receive that commission percentage.
Tom Kagy (10:05)
So is the commission percentage higher for small, no-name brands that are trying to become recognized, or is it just as high for the big brands?
Kelli Luu (10:15)
Um, it's honestly pretty similar. It's, um, big brands give a pretty good commission rate too, I would say. I think it kind of more matters on how much the product costs. So, um, like a $10 item maybe will only be like 20%. So you'd only be getting about $2 from it. Um, but more expensive items, like an ice machine, for example.
you might get 30 % and you're gonna make more money because you're selling a higher priced item.
Tom Kagy (10:50)
Okay, so this is a way to incentivize affiliates to create a lot of content to sell these products.
Kelli Luu (10:56)
Exactly.
Yeah, exactly. So the more more content you create, the more chances that people will see and purchase the product. So whoever buys from you, whoever sees your video and clicks purchase, you will get the commission off.
Tom Kagy (11:08)
Okay, so that is one way to make money off of TikTok. And the other way would be to create your own shop or your own product and place it on TikTok shop.
Kelli Luu (11:19)
Yeah, you could also, brands could just apply to be a part of TikTok Shop and they can open up their own shop. I know somebody who just opened up a new, they created a new candy, like a Chamoy, sour Chamoy candy, and they just launched on TikTok Shop last month and they're just starting off on there. They haven't sold anywhere else yet, just on TikTok Shop.
Tom Kagy (11:41)
Okay, now what kind of cut, is there a cut that TikTok takes for people that set up shop?
Kelli Luu (11:48)
I'm not exactly sure what the commission is for shop owners, but commission, mean, TikTok does take a commission percentage from the brand itself.
Tom Kagy (11:58)
Okay, so they would provide everything. They provide the infrastructure and you just put up a picture of a product and its description. okay. So now I'm starting to understand after you've given me this picture of the financial, the economic aspect of TikTok, I'm starting to understand why there was such a furor among millions of Americans when Trump was talking about kicking TikTok off.
Kelli Luu (12:05)
Yes, exactly.
Tom Kagy (12:23)
the US platform or, you know, unless it agrees to sell it, I guess to an American company.
Kelli Luu (12:29)
Yeah, if TikTok were to not exist anymore in the United States, there would be a lot of angry people because a lot of these TikTok creators, they're making thousands of dollars every week. they are making a lot of money. There's a lot of money to be made on TikTok. And if you're one of those top creators, they're making tons of money. that's a lot of people creating is their full-time job on TikTok.
Tom Kagy (12:42)
Wow. Okay.
Kelli Luu (12:56)
and that's how they are able to pay their bills is through TikTok. without it, I'm not sure how easy it would be for everyone to switch over to YouTube.
Tom Kagy (13:05)
Okay, now I'm starting to understand why Trump has been so lenient and indulgent in continuing to extend the deadline for TikTok to sell itself or sell the US operation. Because I think he probably figures from what you're telling me that if TikTok were to go offline, he would probably lose, or his party rather, his followers would probably lose in the midterm election.
Kelli Luu (13:17)
Yeah.
Yeah, a lot of people would disagree with his decision to do that for sure if he does.
Tom Kagy (13:38)
Do you
have any sense? I mean, I'm not sure if it's possible to glean that from simply visiting TikTok. Do you have any sense what the political leanings are of TikTokers?
Kelli Luu (13:48)
you know, TikTok is just such a big platform. You get a little bit of both, I would say. You definitely see a little bit of both. So with the algorithm on TikTok, it really depends on what you're watching. So if you're left leaning and you're watching a left leaning video and you so happen to agree with it and you like it, then you're more likely to get more left leaning videos put on your for you page.
Tom Kagy (14:11)
Okay.
So would you say that the TikTok algorithm is more sophisticated or more responsive than what we see on YouTube or some of the other social platforms?
Kelli Luu (14:22)
I definitely think it's probably more advanced in like technical terms. I'm not sure like what software, algorithm software they're using, what's the difference and everything, but I think that TikToks is pretty good. Like you can watch just one video about.
something specific like a dog one dog video you've never watched a dog video before and Next thing you know that your for you page will show you dog videos after just watching that singular one Or even looking something up even if you just search for something it'll start showing you Divide videos of that certain product
Tom Kagy (14:57)
Okay, so we're hearing about people being addicted to TikTok and all the ill consequences of young people being addicted to TikTok. Is that something that you think is very pervasive or is it kind of just a scattered phenomenon?
Kelli Luu (15:12)
think it might be scattered. I think it might be a scattered phenomenon.
Tom Kagy (15:16)
Okay, but how much time do you spend a week on TikTok?
Kelli Luu (15:19)
would say I probably spend maybe like 30 minutes to an hour a day scrolling through TikTok just purely for seeing what's trending, seeing what people are liking and stuff like that. But ⁓ yeah, like for scrolling, yeah, would say you definitely get stuck in a loophole, but on the weekends it might be closer to two hours, but.
Tom Kagy (15:34)
Right, partly for your work as well, I imagine.
Kelli Luu (15:45)
For the most part, I try to keep it to like one to two hours a day of just purely scrolling.
Tom Kagy (15:50)
Okay, now let's go back to the sensibility issue or topic. Do you see a difference in sensibility? I mean, aside from the fact that TikTok is much, you know, typically tends to offer much shorter content. Do you see any difference in like sensibility between TikTok and, you know, things like YouTube?
Kelli Luu (16:10)
Sensibility in for what?
Tom Kagy (16:11)
In terms
of the way content is presented or the perspective or maybe the formality or informality with which it's, you know what I mean? Things sort of stylistic, I guess, type of aspects of content.
Kelli Luu (16:27)
Yeah, again, I think with TikTok, like I said before, whoever's going to hop onto the TikTok app, they're expecting to be on it just to watch short videos. And then again, if somebody were to hop onto YouTube, they're more expected to sit down and have the attention span to watch a longer video.
So really, but then again, like certain things can't be fully explained. Certain things can't be fully explained within a 10 second, 30 second video. So I just really think it depends on the content of what people are making. It's really your niche for each creator. think then your niche really just what's important. So if you know your followers will watch a longer video, then.
It's okay to post a long, I think you could post up to 10 minute video on TikTok. That's the longest, but that's very rare. I rarely see a 10 minute video on TikTok. But it really just depends on your audience. I think that's a a bigger picture to look at is the audience.
Tom Kagy (17:29)
Okay,
but I guess what I'm getting at is, I mean, I'm sure you've been on YouTube as well as TikTok. So do you perceive any difference in sensibility? Like the way people present their content on TikTok, the tone of their language, their voice, attitude, versus…
Kelli Luu (17:46)
I see. Yeah,
on YouTube, it's more serious, I would say. It's a much more serious tone because if you're like going, let's say again for like a tutorial, if you're going to YouTube for the tutorial, you're going to want to look for like the expert. You might want to look for somebody who you're familiar with on TikTok. I feel like it's a lot more casual even with
people, even with brands, if they're asking you to make content and they provide a script for you for a short TikTok video, they will tell you to act like you're talking to a friend. So all like if you're selling on TikTok and you're creating videos, like you want it to seem as authentic and genuine as possible. And then on YouTube, I feel like it's much more educational.
Tom Kagy (18:30)
Okay, TikTok is a little more intimate, I guess, and informal. I guess, you know, one of the big questions that I have, you know, is just an older, I mean, a millennial, who's sort of looking at this phenomena kind of more just academically or philosophically. I'm wondering, first of all, does the…
Kelli Luu (18:34)
Yes.
Tom Kagy (18:52)
the progression or rather the shift to TikTok, do you think that reflects a change in the way young Americans are versus the way older Americans are? I is there a change you think difference in the way they think and perceive the world and the way they perceive themselves and the way they perceive time?
Kelli Luu (19:13)
Yes, 100%. I think the newer generation of kids, they have direct access to social media and TikTok is their main platform. I feel like in high school and younger, that's definitely, maybe even 25 and younger, TikTok might be their main platform.
So again, I say the attention span is a lot shorter. I've noticed with millennials and Gen Zers because we're mostly on TikTok, so we're not always going to the YouTube videos to search for anything. And then I feel like a lot of the Gen Zers, they know that everything can be found on TikTok too, and they can find stuff within seconds. So they will go to TikTok and try to look for that rather than just searching on Google.
And then now even with just how good technology is with AI, you can just ask a question on chat, GPT or anything and get the exact answer. There's no need for research or there's no need for going out of your way to look for anything. So we expect very immediate answers. And I think that's something that might negatively affect the future generation because
Tom Kagy (20:20)
That's good point.
Kelli Luu (20:30)
Answers will be right in front of their face all the time. It's gonna be difficult for them to search for the answers if they don't know how to.
Tom Kagy (20:36)
Okay, so looking at it from the other perspective, you think that TikTok is also having an impact on the younger generation by its algorithms, the ease that it's kind of offering these young people.
Kelli Luu (20:48)
yeah, definitely the algorithm has something to do with it too, because the algorithm is deciding what's popular and even what people are buying. The kids, obviously they're more influenced by things on social media. certain crazes will go viral on TikTok and these kids are seeing that and that immediately thinks like they see it online and they think it's cool.
in real life so they need it in real life. they're seeing, they're copying what they're seeing online. And when it comes to things online, not everything is for kids. And it's usually they're seeing things that back in the day when we didn't have TikTok or Instagram or anything like that, we kind of had to like build our own personality and figure out things on our own and figure out who we are on our own. Whereas now with TikTok and…
all of these social media platforms, it's kind of like these kids are trying to be somebody else they're seeing online rather than just themselves.
Tom Kagy (21:43)
Okay, do you see any danger in that?
Kelli Luu (21:44)
yeah, I think so for sure. If you talk to some high schoolers nowadays, they all talk the same. They all say the same things. They all have the same vocabulary. They all want the same thing. They all wanna wear the same thing. There's kind of a lot less individuality now.
Tom Kagy (22:02)
That's scary. So, I mean, I guess that goes to one of my two final questions, which has to do with whether there's any real validity to the concern that the fact that TikTok is a Chinese company, that exposing Americans to it is somehow damaging to American interests or to American society.
Kelli Luu (22:03)
Yeah.
Tom Kagy (22:25)
And I know that, you know, from their standpoint, what they're more concerned about, or at least what they act like they're more concerned about is the fact that it being a Chinese platform, the US government has no control over the algorithms that could.
let's say, siphon off personal data over to China for use for whatever nefarious purposes they might use. I can't imagine many, but that's the alleged reason for their security concern. But aside from that, which I think is highly questionable, but aside from that, do you see any signs that
Kelli Luu (22:44)
Ray.
Tom Kagy (23:03)
because TikTok is a China-based company that it is having an influence on the way TikTokers view China versus the US, or that it seems to be pushing a certain agenda that might be advantageous to China.
Kelli Luu (23:18)
Wow, that's a good question. think it might, I think it does, for creators it might. From a creator's standpoint, I don't think it makes us have different perspective on like…
on like China, I don't think it has make us have a different perspective, but I think as a creator, it is important to know that a lot of the trends that we're seeing are coming from China. that again, that might be why like the US government is afraid of having TikTok not unbanned here. So I think China is deciding a lot of the different crazes.
The algorithm, like you said, think it is because it is controlled by Chinese government. That is why the trends on TikTok are able to go so viral and like certain ones are able to go so viral. I don't know if it makes me feel some, a different kind of way towards the country as a whole, but I think it is important to just have to realize that because I don't think a lot of people, that's not something a lot of people are thinking about where the trends are actually coming from.
Tom Kagy (24:18)
Okay, so TikTok's Chinese ownership, in your opinion, may have an psychological or rather sociological or cultural impact on the perceptions of young Americans.
Kelli Luu (24:29)
Yeah, even just with most recently, Labooboo. Labooboo has been in China, it's been in China for months now. Popmart is the name of the creator who's distributing these and they've been around for, probably since last year they've been around and it's just now coming to the United States. ⁓
Tom Kagy (24:48)
And
it's did, I mean, I don't want to get too deeply into this because I know you're working on a video on that topic specifically, but just to touch on it, do you think in that particular case that TikTok played a role in making the booboo popular in the US?
Kelli Luu (24:54)
Hmm.
for sure, yes, 100%. The amount of videos that are on TikTok about it now, the amount of people that are talking about it, the amount of people lining up to go and buy them is ridiculous and a big part of it is because of the TikTok craze.
Tom Kagy (25:20)
Okay, and my last question, since you are a creature of social media, mean, don't, you you specifically, you know, even more so maybe than many other members of Gen Z because, know, of your work and your experience as a social media model for Nordstrom, do you see any platform that
Kelli Luu (25:32)
Yes.
Tom Kagy (25:41)
may rise up and challenge and overthrow TikTok for the hearts and minds of young Americans, maybe in the next generation or in the next few years? Is there anything that's likely to, that's on the horizon that could sort of displace TikTok?
Kelli Luu (25:58)
You know, it's really, I think it would be really bad if what I'm saying happens, but right now Twitch is really, really popular.
Tom Kagy (26:07)
What is Twitch? I've never even heard of it.
Kelli Luu (26:09)
Twitch is like another, it's a live streaming. So just purely live streaming websites. So on Twitch, people can live stream on their 24 seven and you can go and go and join people's live streams on it. Why I say that I think it'll be bad if that becomes like a main platform is like people are not going to have a life at all. Like, like on Twitch, like when you're joining Twitch, you're joining Twitch to go and watch somebody in real time, you know? So ⁓
Tom Kagy (26:35)
Okay. So what,
like what kind of things, I don't want to go into too much because we're running out of time, but what kind of things on Twitch?
Kelli Luu (26:43)
So just probably like some of the biggest creators, they're just doing funny things, funny skits, funny games. They're the creators that are going to the creator parties in Hollywood. They're going to red carpet events and filming themselves like just literally documenting their entire life 24 seven and their fans love it.
Tom Kagy (27:05)
Okay, is this a US platform?
Kelli Luu (27:07)
I believe so.
Tom Kagy (27:08)
Okay. Well, I guess Trump should be happy with if that happens, all right. Well, you've really sort of cleared up or created a picture for me of what TikTok is all about. So I really appreciate that.
Kelli Luu (27:20)
Of course, I'm glad to help out with the thoughts about it.
Tom Kagy (27:24)
Okay, thank you, Kelli. I will speak with you again soon.
Kelli Luu (27:27)
Thank you.
View all episodes
By VoxcaliA Chinese platform that sounds like a children's game has become the platform Gen Z can't live without. We grilled a longtime devotee to find out how and why, exactly.
Tom Kagy (00:00)
Hello, this is Tom Kagy for Unconventional Wisdom. Today we have Kelli Liu, who is an expert on TikTok. I think she's a serious TikToker and probably knows just about everything that we could want to know about TikTok. Hi Kelli, how are you?
Kelli Luu (00:16)
Hi, thanks. Thank you for speaking with me.
Tom Kagy (00:18)
What I want to find out is why TikTok has essentially taken over the social media scene. It sounds like not just in the US, but pretty much around the world. Okay, so is this a phenomenon that's limited to people like you? By that I mean Gen Z, or is this something that is bigger than that?
Kelli Luu (00:29)
Yeah, it definitely has.
I definitely think it's targeted towards Gen Z, a Gen Z audience. I think our attention span is definitely a lot shorter. So the TikTok gives us a quick peek into the video rather than, whereas on YouTube, there's a much longer, people who are watching on YouTube, they have a much longer attention span. a lot of people, millennials, they grew up with YouTube and…
They grew up watching these longer videos, but as time shifted, a lot of the newer generation is kind of hopping onto TikTok, because you can just learn things really fast. In a minute, you can learn the whole recipe, or in 30 seconds, you can learn a whole recipe. So I definitely think it's targeted definitely more towards Gen Z.
Tom Kagy (01:26)
So my impression of TikTok based on my very limited contact with it is that it's mainly like people doing goofy dances and animals, you know, doing cute things or people caught in very awkward situations, things like that.
But you're suggesting that there's actually a lot of how-to.
Kelli Luu (01:44)
Oh yeah, I think TikTok is a really good way to learn pretty much almost anything. Chef course, you can go and do a Google search on how to do it, but you're have to find the right article. You're gonna have to read through how to exactly do it. But if you just go on TikTok and you search up how to cook rice, if you were trying to just learn how to make some rice, then you could easily do it and there's a visual.
the video's not going to be that long. on TikTok, longer videos actually do worse than shorter, faster clips. with these how-to videos, they're like super fast. They're 30 seconds or a minute, and you can learn basically whatever task it is you need to learn within that time.
Tom Kagy (02:26)
So is there pretty much the same kind of content as YouTube or is there kind of a difference in the focus of the content?
Kelli Luu (02:34)
Yeah, I would say it's pretty much like the same content like on YouTube there's makeup tutorials. There's prank videos. There's a story time stuff like that, but on tik-tok it's kind of just shortened a lot because it's a lot easier to hop on to tik-tok on your phone and watch a video than it is to hop on your phone and watch YouTube I feel like so you definitely are going to be able to just
learn something really fast on TikTok, whereas on YouTube it'll be like a 10 minute video.
Tom Kagy (03:03)
but there's no real difference in the kind of content that both platforms have.
Kelli Luu (03:08)
I wouldn't say as for the topic. I think the topics are all pretty similar. It's really like the length of how detailed you want it to be in. Or I think it also depends on the person's niche. So the uploader's niche, whatever. If they have a fan base that really likes to follow what they like to do every day or somebody who is a gym influencer and they're trying to show off their entire workout routine.
Sometimes maybe you can't show all the tips and tricks in a TikTok video, so they'll move their platform, they'll move videos onto YouTube so they have more time to really sit down and explain everything that they're doing.
Tom Kagy (03:45)
Okay, so there is an overlap between TikTok and YouTube.
Kelli Luu (03:49)
Oh yeah, think if you have a pretty good fan base on TikTok, I think it's a lot easier to switch over to YouTube after gaining a fan base on TikTok, yeah.
Tom Kagy (03:59)
Is that a common strategy to try to develop a new fan base on TikTok and then shift to YouTube?
Kelli Luu (04:06)
yeah, for sure. Because once you have a fan base on TikTok, you have these people who are really interested in what you're doing. And so they want to see more of you. And those people who want to see more of you, they're going to go check out your YouTube and see the longer videos.
Tom Kagy (04:21)
But why can't you just stay on TikTok and have longer videos on TikTok?
Kelli Luu (04:25)
the attention span of the users on TikTok. So when somebody is planning on going on TikTok, they're planning on watching a quick video. They're not planning on watching a five to 10 minute video about anything. That's what people go to YouTube for. So a lot of people, it's like a joke to, they need to watch something when they are eating their meal. So people will use YouTube to, they're not really gonna go on TikTok because you have to scroll on TikTok. These videos are really short, so you have to keep scrolling, but.
YouTube, you're expecting a long video, so you're more likely to just to actually watch the whole video on YouTube than you are on TikTok.
Tom Kagy (05:00)
Okay, so you don't have to put your chopsticks down to watch different videos. Okay, so I mean, from what I'm hearing, it sounds like it's mainly a question of length of the videos. Are there other factors that have made TikTok so popular?
Kelli Luu (05:03)
Exactly.
well right now, definitely with TikTok shop booming, I think that is a big thing that has been attracting a lot of people to TikTok shop. It's like basically a shopping app now, or it's basically, I would even say it's almost like a review app where you can go see people's real,
real reactions to a certain product and how much they like it or how people are using it in their everyday life. So I think that kind of draws people into it, the fact that you can shop on it. And then just the relatability on TikTok as well. You have so many people who are posting videos every day and there's so much content that's relatable. Somebody can post a video and they're just ranting about something and it could be something that you completely agree with.
Just seeing that things like that on TikTok, I think really builds kind of like a community. There's a bunch of different communities on TikTok. So that is a big aspect of it too, of why it's so popular.
Tom Kagy (06:11)
Okay, so you touched on two things. One is the relatability, the fact that you have people that are sharing views that are, I guess, more commonly shared by Gen Z, right? And the other is that it's become a shopping platform. Now, on the shopping platform part of it, are we talking about something that rivals Amazon or are we
Kelli Luu (06:22)
Mm-hmm.
Tom Kagy (06:33)
talking about just an occasional TikTokker who happens to have come up with the bright idea to sell a certain product.
Kelli Luu (06:39)
Yeah, I think it definitely is going is rivaling Amazon right now for sure because Anybody could sell on tik-tok so you don't just have to be a tik-tok influencer or creator Brands all brands can sell on tik-tok The most popular a lot of popular brands Maybelline Murad all of these are on tik-tok now too because they're noticing a shift change and the demographic has a lot of
younger girls are being influenced by certain products and they are more likely to purchase if they're watching a video on TikTok than if they were just have to look it up on Amazon. they're drawing this audience that they don't have to leave TikTok to go and look for another platform to shop for this item. So these people, these influencers, they're posting a video of this skincare product and you don't have to
go somewhere else to go look for it. can be linked right there in that video. And it's social media, so people are already just already on the app and it makes it just 10 times easier. I think people really like that idea. And then also just the interaction, think a lot of a big part about TikTok is interacting with your followers and interacting with whoever is commenting on your videos and stuff. So all of that too.
plays a part into the whole TikTok shop thing because people are trying to get their videos seen and social media is the perfect way to get your products seen.
Tom Kagy (08:04)
So let's say you see an influencer post something about a product. So you would just click and then that would take you to TikTok shop. Is that how it's organized?
Kelli Luu (08:15)
Yes, as long as that product is on TikTok Shop, which a lot of products are on TikTok Shop now. So TikTok actually has affiliate programs. So there's a lot of different ways to monetize if you are a creator on TikTok. I'm speaking from a creator standpoint. So you could be a TikTok affiliate, which is…
Tom Kagy (08:21)
Okay.
Kelli Luu (08:37)
you have to have a certain amount of followers and you're able to join a certain program that's directly with TikTok. And that allows you to get connected with different brands that are on TikTok shop and they will send you free samples and you have to in return make a video for them to keep up on your page.
Tom Kagy (08:56)
So what do you get out of it?
Kelli Luu (08:58)
So the creator gets commissioned. So every brand sends you a brief, and the brief will say what your commission rate is. Honestly, the commission rates are very, good on TikTok Shop. So they're around 10 to 30%. I've seen probably even 40 % commission on TikTok Shop. So it just depends on the product and where you're selling, what region you're in.
Tom Kagy (09:24)
Okay, so these, when you get accredited or accepted as an affiliate, you're essentially sort of a sales, you're authorized to be a sales agent for brands that are on TikTok.
Kelli Luu (09:35)
Pretty much, yeah, you have an agreement with them. then once they, either you could apply for samples, so you can even go onto the TikTok shop yourself, and let's say you're a beauty creator and there's this viral mascara that's going around right now. You can apply to have them send that to you, and if they accept your application, then they'll send it to you for free, and all you have to do is just make a video for them.
And then after that, sales you generate from that video, then you receive that commission percentage.
Tom Kagy (10:05)
So is the commission percentage higher for small, no-name brands that are trying to become recognized, or is it just as high for the big brands?
Kelli Luu (10:15)
Um, it's honestly pretty similar. It's, um, big brands give a pretty good commission rate too, I would say. I think it kind of more matters on how much the product costs. So, um, like a $10 item maybe will only be like 20%. So you'd only be getting about $2 from it. Um, but more expensive items, like an ice machine, for example.
you might get 30 % and you're gonna make more money because you're selling a higher priced item.
Tom Kagy (10:50)
Okay, so this is a way to incentivize affiliates to create a lot of content to sell these products.
Kelli Luu (10:56)
Exactly.
Yeah, exactly. So the more more content you create, the more chances that people will see and purchase the product. So whoever buys from you, whoever sees your video and clicks purchase, you will get the commission off.
Tom Kagy (11:08)
Okay, so that is one way to make money off of TikTok. And the other way would be to create your own shop or your own product and place it on TikTok shop.
Kelli Luu (11:19)
Yeah, you could also, brands could just apply to be a part of TikTok Shop and they can open up their own shop. I know somebody who just opened up a new, they created a new candy, like a Chamoy, sour Chamoy candy, and they just launched on TikTok Shop last month and they're just starting off on there. They haven't sold anywhere else yet, just on TikTok Shop.
Tom Kagy (11:41)
Okay, now what kind of cut, is there a cut that TikTok takes for people that set up shop?
Kelli Luu (11:48)
I'm not exactly sure what the commission is for shop owners, but commission, mean, TikTok does take a commission percentage from the brand itself.
Tom Kagy (11:58)
Okay, so they would provide everything. They provide the infrastructure and you just put up a picture of a product and its description. okay. So now I'm starting to understand after you've given me this picture of the financial, the economic aspect of TikTok, I'm starting to understand why there was such a furor among millions of Americans when Trump was talking about kicking TikTok off.
Kelli Luu (12:05)
Yes, exactly.
Tom Kagy (12:23)
the US platform or, you know, unless it agrees to sell it, I guess to an American company.
Kelli Luu (12:29)
Yeah, if TikTok were to not exist anymore in the United States, there would be a lot of angry people because a lot of these TikTok creators, they're making thousands of dollars every week. they are making a lot of money. There's a lot of money to be made on TikTok. And if you're one of those top creators, they're making tons of money. that's a lot of people creating is their full-time job on TikTok.
Tom Kagy (12:42)
Wow. Okay.
Kelli Luu (12:56)
and that's how they are able to pay their bills is through TikTok. without it, I'm not sure how easy it would be for everyone to switch over to YouTube.
Tom Kagy (13:05)
Okay, now I'm starting to understand why Trump has been so lenient and indulgent in continuing to extend the deadline for TikTok to sell itself or sell the US operation. Because I think he probably figures from what you're telling me that if TikTok were to go offline, he would probably lose, or his party rather, his followers would probably lose in the midterm election.
Kelli Luu (13:17)
Yeah.
Yeah, a lot of people would disagree with his decision to do that for sure if he does.
Tom Kagy (13:38)
Do you
have any sense? I mean, I'm not sure if it's possible to glean that from simply visiting TikTok. Do you have any sense what the political leanings are of TikTokers?
Kelli Luu (13:48)
you know, TikTok is just such a big platform. You get a little bit of both, I would say. You definitely see a little bit of both. So with the algorithm on TikTok, it really depends on what you're watching. So if you're left leaning and you're watching a left leaning video and you so happen to agree with it and you like it, then you're more likely to get more left leaning videos put on your for you page.
Tom Kagy (14:11)
Okay.
So would you say that the TikTok algorithm is more sophisticated or more responsive than what we see on YouTube or some of the other social platforms?
Kelli Luu (14:22)
I definitely think it's probably more advanced in like technical terms. I'm not sure like what software, algorithm software they're using, what's the difference and everything, but I think that TikToks is pretty good. Like you can watch just one video about.
something specific like a dog one dog video you've never watched a dog video before and Next thing you know that your for you page will show you dog videos after just watching that singular one Or even looking something up even if you just search for something it'll start showing you Divide videos of that certain product
Tom Kagy (14:57)
Okay, so we're hearing about people being addicted to TikTok and all the ill consequences of young people being addicted to TikTok. Is that something that you think is very pervasive or is it kind of just a scattered phenomenon?
Kelli Luu (15:12)
think it might be scattered. I think it might be a scattered phenomenon.
Tom Kagy (15:16)
Okay, but how much time do you spend a week on TikTok?
Kelli Luu (15:19)
would say I probably spend maybe like 30 minutes to an hour a day scrolling through TikTok just purely for seeing what's trending, seeing what people are liking and stuff like that. But ⁓ yeah, like for scrolling, yeah, would say you definitely get stuck in a loophole, but on the weekends it might be closer to two hours, but.
Tom Kagy (15:34)
Right, partly for your work as well, I imagine.
Kelli Luu (15:45)
For the most part, I try to keep it to like one to two hours a day of just purely scrolling.
Tom Kagy (15:50)
Okay, now let's go back to the sensibility issue or topic. Do you see a difference in sensibility? I mean, aside from the fact that TikTok is much, you know, typically tends to offer much shorter content. Do you see any difference in like sensibility between TikTok and, you know, things like YouTube?
Kelli Luu (16:10)
Sensibility in for what?
Tom Kagy (16:11)
In terms
of the way content is presented or the perspective or maybe the formality or informality with which it's, you know what I mean? Things sort of stylistic, I guess, type of aspects of content.
Kelli Luu (16:27)
Yeah, again, I think with TikTok, like I said before, whoever's going to hop onto the TikTok app, they're expecting to be on it just to watch short videos. And then again, if somebody were to hop onto YouTube, they're more expected to sit down and have the attention span to watch a longer video.
So really, but then again, like certain things can't be fully explained. Certain things can't be fully explained within a 10 second, 30 second video. So I just really think it depends on the content of what people are making. It's really your niche for each creator. think then your niche really just what's important. So if you know your followers will watch a longer video, then.
It's okay to post a long, I think you could post up to 10 minute video on TikTok. That's the longest, but that's very rare. I rarely see a 10 minute video on TikTok. But it really just depends on your audience. I think that's a a bigger picture to look at is the audience.
Tom Kagy (17:29)
Okay,
but I guess what I'm getting at is, I mean, I'm sure you've been on YouTube as well as TikTok. So do you perceive any difference in sensibility? Like the way people present their content on TikTok, the tone of their language, their voice, attitude, versus…
Kelli Luu (17:46)
I see. Yeah,
on YouTube, it's more serious, I would say. It's a much more serious tone because if you're like going, let's say again for like a tutorial, if you're going to YouTube for the tutorial, you're going to want to look for like the expert. You might want to look for somebody who you're familiar with on TikTok. I feel like it's a lot more casual even with
people, even with brands, if they're asking you to make content and they provide a script for you for a short TikTok video, they will tell you to act like you're talking to a friend. So all like if you're selling on TikTok and you're creating videos, like you want it to seem as authentic and genuine as possible. And then on YouTube, I feel like it's much more educational.
Tom Kagy (18:30)
Okay, TikTok is a little more intimate, I guess, and informal. I guess, you know, one of the big questions that I have, you know, is just an older, I mean, a millennial, who's sort of looking at this phenomena kind of more just academically or philosophically. I'm wondering, first of all, does the…
Kelli Luu (18:34)
Yes.
Tom Kagy (18:52)
the progression or rather the shift to TikTok, do you think that reflects a change in the way young Americans are versus the way older Americans are? I is there a change you think difference in the way they think and perceive the world and the way they perceive themselves and the way they perceive time?
Kelli Luu (19:13)
Yes, 100%. I think the newer generation of kids, they have direct access to social media and TikTok is their main platform. I feel like in high school and younger, that's definitely, maybe even 25 and younger, TikTok might be their main platform.
So again, I say the attention span is a lot shorter. I've noticed with millennials and Gen Zers because we're mostly on TikTok, so we're not always going to the YouTube videos to search for anything. And then I feel like a lot of the Gen Zers, they know that everything can be found on TikTok too, and they can find stuff within seconds. So they will go to TikTok and try to look for that rather than just searching on Google.
And then now even with just how good technology is with AI, you can just ask a question on chat, GPT or anything and get the exact answer. There's no need for research or there's no need for going out of your way to look for anything. So we expect very immediate answers. And I think that's something that might negatively affect the future generation because
Tom Kagy (20:20)
That's good point.
Kelli Luu (20:30)
Answers will be right in front of their face all the time. It's gonna be difficult for them to search for the answers if they don't know how to.
Tom Kagy (20:36)
Okay, so looking at it from the other perspective, you think that TikTok is also having an impact on the younger generation by its algorithms, the ease that it's kind of offering these young people.
Kelli Luu (20:48)
yeah, definitely the algorithm has something to do with it too, because the algorithm is deciding what's popular and even what people are buying. The kids, obviously they're more influenced by things on social media. certain crazes will go viral on TikTok and these kids are seeing that and that immediately thinks like they see it online and they think it's cool.
in real life so they need it in real life. they're seeing, they're copying what they're seeing online. And when it comes to things online, not everything is for kids. And it's usually they're seeing things that back in the day when we didn't have TikTok or Instagram or anything like that, we kind of had to like build our own personality and figure out things on our own and figure out who we are on our own. Whereas now with TikTok and…
all of these social media platforms, it's kind of like these kids are trying to be somebody else they're seeing online rather than just themselves.
Tom Kagy (21:43)
Okay, do you see any danger in that?
Kelli Luu (21:44)
yeah, I think so for sure. If you talk to some high schoolers nowadays, they all talk the same. They all say the same things. They all have the same vocabulary. They all want the same thing. They all wanna wear the same thing. There's kind of a lot less individuality now.
Tom Kagy (22:02)
That's scary. So, I mean, I guess that goes to one of my two final questions, which has to do with whether there's any real validity to the concern that the fact that TikTok is a Chinese company, that exposing Americans to it is somehow damaging to American interests or to American society.
Kelli Luu (22:03)
Yeah.
Tom Kagy (22:25)
And I know that, you know, from their standpoint, what they're more concerned about, or at least what they act like they're more concerned about is the fact that it being a Chinese platform, the US government has no control over the algorithms that could.
let's say, siphon off personal data over to China for use for whatever nefarious purposes they might use. I can't imagine many, but that's the alleged reason for their security concern. But aside from that, which I think is highly questionable, but aside from that, do you see any signs that
Kelli Luu (22:44)
Ray.
Tom Kagy (23:03)
because TikTok is a China-based company that it is having an influence on the way TikTokers view China versus the US, or that it seems to be pushing a certain agenda that might be advantageous to China.
Kelli Luu (23:18)
Wow, that's a good question. think it might, I think it does, for creators it might. From a creator's standpoint, I don't think it makes us have different perspective on like…
on like China, I don't think it has make us have a different perspective, but I think as a creator, it is important to know that a lot of the trends that we're seeing are coming from China. that again, that might be why like the US government is afraid of having TikTok not unbanned here. So I think China is deciding a lot of the different crazes.
The algorithm, like you said, think it is because it is controlled by Chinese government. That is why the trends on TikTok are able to go so viral and like certain ones are able to go so viral. I don't know if it makes me feel some, a different kind of way towards the country as a whole, but I think it is important to just have to realize that because I don't think a lot of people, that's not something a lot of people are thinking about where the trends are actually coming from.
Tom Kagy (24:18)
Okay, so TikTok's Chinese ownership, in your opinion, may have an psychological or rather sociological or cultural impact on the perceptions of young Americans.
Kelli Luu (24:29)
Yeah, even just with most recently, Labooboo. Labooboo has been in China, it's been in China for months now. Popmart is the name of the creator who's distributing these and they've been around for, probably since last year they've been around and it's just now coming to the United States. ⁓
Tom Kagy (24:48)
And
it's did, I mean, I don't want to get too deeply into this because I know you're working on a video on that topic specifically, but just to touch on it, do you think in that particular case that TikTok played a role in making the booboo popular in the US?
Kelli Luu (24:54)
Hmm.
for sure, yes, 100%. The amount of videos that are on TikTok about it now, the amount of people that are talking about it, the amount of people lining up to go and buy them is ridiculous and a big part of it is because of the TikTok craze.
Tom Kagy (25:20)
Okay, and my last question, since you are a creature of social media, mean, don't, you you specifically, you know, even more so maybe than many other members of Gen Z because, know, of your work and your experience as a social media model for Nordstrom, do you see any platform that
Kelli Luu (25:32)
Yes.
Tom Kagy (25:41)
may rise up and challenge and overthrow TikTok for the hearts and minds of young Americans, maybe in the next generation or in the next few years? Is there anything that's likely to, that's on the horizon that could sort of displace TikTok?
Kelli Luu (25:58)
You know, it's really, I think it would be really bad if what I'm saying happens, but right now Twitch is really, really popular.
Tom Kagy (26:07)
What is Twitch? I've never even heard of it.
Kelli Luu (26:09)
Twitch is like another, it's a live streaming. So just purely live streaming websites. So on Twitch, people can live stream on their 24 seven and you can go and go and join people's live streams on it. Why I say that I think it'll be bad if that becomes like a main platform is like people are not going to have a life at all. Like, like on Twitch, like when you're joining Twitch, you're joining Twitch to go and watch somebody in real time, you know? So ⁓
Tom Kagy (26:35)
Okay. So what,
like what kind of things, I don't want to go into too much because we're running out of time, but what kind of things on Twitch?
Kelli Luu (26:43)
So just probably like some of the biggest creators, they're just doing funny things, funny skits, funny games. They're the creators that are going to the creator parties in Hollywood. They're going to red carpet events and filming themselves like just literally documenting their entire life 24 seven and their fans love it.
Tom Kagy (27:05)
Okay, is this a US platform?
Kelli Luu (27:07)
I believe so.
Tom Kagy (27:08)
Okay. Well, I guess Trump should be happy with if that happens, all right. Well, you've really sort of cleared up or created a picture for me of what TikTok is all about. So I really appreciate that.
Kelli Luu (27:20)
Of course, I'm glad to help out with the thoughts about it.
Tom Kagy (27:24)
Okay, thank you, Kelli. I will speak with you again soon.
Kelli Luu (27:27)
Thank you.