Have you ever found yourself in a situation where you wanted to be an effective ally or advocate for a co-worker, but when a situation arises that seems like you should be doing or saying something, you worry that you won’t do the most helpful thing? That your actions or words might actually make things worse for your co-worker? How do you know you’re actually helping? 

This is a dilemma that comes up a lot in emails from listeners. And in the Before Times, we talked to someone about exactly this question. 

Jeannie considers this guest a total expert in workplace advocacy and allyship....largely because she advocated for Jeannie when they worked together, and for a bunch of their colleagues. 

Her name is Phyllis Fletcher, an author and editor who lives here in Seattle. you've probably heard her name before - she's in Season 3 credits for providing expert editorial consulting.

Eula and Jeannie originally talked with Phyllis for bonus episode for Season 2. But her tactics feel more relevant than ever. So we wanted to make sure everyone can hear what she has to say.