This episode is dedicated to and about military dads. If you’re actively serving or a veteran and you’re trying to find purpose and balance in fatherhood, you’re going to want to stick around for this episode. My guest will share his story and journey from being a soldier to being a veteran dad.

Joseph Peck is a successful Vice President, Financial Adviser and father. But before that he was a soldier and he’s here to share his journey into fatherhood.

To learn more about Joseph Peck or connect with him.

Email: [email protected]

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/joseph-peck-a81932116/

Special thanks to InGenius Prep for sponsoring The Fatherhood Challenge. To learn more about InGenius Prep or to claim your free consultation, visit: https://ingeniusprep.com/get-a-free-consultation/?utm_campaign=2024+Podcast+Email+Marketing&utm_content=Fatherhood+Podcast&utm_medium=Fatherhood+Podcast&utm_source=Fatherhood+Podcast&utm_term=Fatherhood+Podcast

Special thanks to Zencastr for sponsoring The Fatherhood Challenge. Use my special link https://zen.ai/CWHIjopqUnnp9xKhbWqscGp-61ATMClwZ1R8J5rm824WHQIJesasjKDm-vGxYtYJ to save 30% off your first month of any Zencastr paid plan.

Transcription - How Veterans Find Purpose in Fatherhood

---

This episode is dedicated to and about military dads.

If you're actively serving or a veteran and you're trying to find purpose and balance in fatherhood,

you're gonna want to stick around for this episode.

My guest will share his story and journey from being a soldier to being a veteran dad in just a moment so don't go anywhere.

Before we begin, I'd like to thank our proud sponsor of this episode and the Fatherhood Challenge in Genius Prep.

In Genius Prep is the world's premier admissions consulting firm, proud to be officially recognized as the country's top college admissions consultants.

Helping students prepare for admissions to top schools through individualized educational programs that increase chances of admission by up to 10 times.

In Genius Prep students work with former admission officers to differentiate themselves from other competitive students in three areas colleges evaluate students.

In academics, extra curricular activities and personal characteristics.

Just this past admission cycle, Genius Prep students have secured 110 offers from Ivy League schools, 268 offers,

from top 20 schools, and 904 offers from top 50 schools.

In Genius Prep's student success lies within the fact that in Genius Prep is an all-in-one consulting firm

offering every service a family needs, whether it be test prep, tailored candidacy, building mentorship, academic mentorships,

the leadership and innovation lab, soft skills courses, writing courses and other customized programs to develop their application persona to the most effective and authentic extent to share with colleges.

Just click on the link in the episode description to book a free strategy call with one of Genius Prep's college experts.

Or you can visit in Genius Prep.com that's in Genius Prep.com and let them know you came from the Fatherhood Challenge.

Welcome to the Fatherhood Challenge, a movement to awaken and inspire fathers everywhere to take great pride in their role and to challenge society to understand how important fathers are to the stability and culture of their families environment.

Now here's your host, Jonathan Guerrero.

Greetings everyone, thank you so much for joining me. My guest is Joseph Peck. Joseph is a successful vice president and financial advisor and father, but before that he was a soldier and he's here to share his journey to Fatherhood.

Joseph, thank you so much for being on the Fatherhood Challenge.

Hey, it's my pleasure, Jonathan. Thank you for having me.

Joseph, what is your favorite dad joke?

I have been telling this joke even before I was a father when I was in high school, I was giving a presentation and the computer stopped working, the PowerPoint stopped working and it was me and my partner working on the presentation, standing up there, staring at about 60 adults.

And I pulled this joke out and it has never ceased to fail me. It is hands down my favorite dad joke, so this is the way it goes.

There are two muffins in an oven. One muffin turns to the other and says, oh my gosh, we're in an oven.

The second muffin looks at the other one and says, oh my god, you're a talking muffin.

[Laughter]

Yeah, that is awesome.

Thank you. Thank you for sharing that with us.

I love that the way this show starts, so thank you.

So Joseph, please share your story from what made you want to join the military and what was your experience like while you were in?

Absolutely. I wanted to join the military pretty early on since I was in early teenager and I really just wanted to serve the country.

I was kind of hot-headed like a lot of young men are.

I wanted to do things that were exciting. I wanted to travel the world. I liked confrontation.

So I was very much stereotypical, I guess you could say, for the kind of person that would have listened to the military.

I decided to and listened to the Air Force and that's what my grandpa did.

My grandpa was in listening to the Air Force and I got put into the pharmacy position.

So I was a pharmacy technician for the first several years.

That was okay. It wouldn't have been my first choice as a job to be in the military.

But I did that for several years. My wife and I had our first child while we were there.

And we decided, you know what, we want to go back home. I'm out of Arizona.

We wanted to go back to Arizona and at the time, the Air Force was doing a program to where you could go from active duty to the reserve

and you could finish out your contract in the reserve.

So doing one weekend a month and two weeks of the year instead of being full time.

And so I did that. And as soon as I got back to Arizona, they called me up and said,

"Hey, you're going to go to training. You're reactivated for six more months."

And I went to golf port Mississippi and I trained to be in the Civil Engineering Department,

the Civil Engineering Group, to where I did construction for the military for the next six years.

And being in the reserve, I was activated off and on. I would do six months. I wouldn't do anything.

I'd go back to civilian life. I'd do two weeks, go back to civilian life, deployed for six months, go back to civilian life.

And I did that until 2022 when I finally got out after 10 years.

What was your transition like into fatherhood? What were some of your personal struggles and how did you deal with them?

My transition into fatherhood was a lot different than most. My wife and I have known each other since we were in high school.

And we got married at 19 and 20 and we had our first son at 21 and 20.

So I was very, very young. Being a dad, I was working 12 hour days, gone all the time.

So it was very abrupt transition into fatherhood.

You know, I would say the most difficult thing for me personally, of course, was that I was gone all the time,

but it was coming home to my wife who had, she, she, she was uprooted from her entire community to come be with me and marry me,

you know, on the other side of the country from where she lived.

And being coming home to see that she was really isolated and she didn't have a community and she, we were,

we didn't have a lot of money, we had one car, she really couldn't go anywhere because I was at work all the time.

The most difficult thing for me was the complete and total responsibility of two living beings

that I was now completely responsible for. And I hadn't thought of that before. I was excited to become a dad,

I was excited to be a good husband, which I tried to be and I wanted to do all these different things.

And then it kind of smacked me in the face that, hey, you're 21 and you have a ton of responsibility now

to put food on the table but also be an emotional support, right? And be a mental support and be pretty much my wife

and my son's entire community because we were very isolated.

That was, that was a heck of a struggle and the transition was bumpy and you know, I'm not going to lie,

it was bumpy but it's a team effort in my opinion, right? Between me and my wife, it was a complete team

effort to transition into parenthood and I can't speak for everybody but as far as myself and my wife,

we really became very, very co-dependent. We really depended on each other and we leaned on each other

a lot. In some ways it seems like really that transition actually brought you closer together.

You know, I would absolutely agree. We talk about it frequently nowadays because that was,

you know, a long time ago. All of the bad things that happened and, you know, there was a lot of

drama when I left active duty and went to the reserve, family drama career drama. There was a lot of

things that happened that led up to that decision and, you know, the events around that decision

and the events around that action and it really grew us closer to get it because to be quite honest,

we didn't really have anybody else. It was just us too and I think it really did make us stronger

than ever and it made our bond with our son very incredibly strong and it made the unit that we

were, the small, you know, three person unit, it made us unbreakable and it ended up paying off

dividends in the future, absolutely. And now we have four boys so I've got four sons and I like to

think that we are very strong as ever just because of all of the diversity we went through.

That's interesting. I thought I just heard you refer to your family as a unit. Interesting.

Oh, absolutely, absolutely. I think that, I think that nowadays, especially because,

from my point of view, the nuclear family is absolutely under attack. The nuclear family isn't

what it used to be and it's very much going away. You have to be very defensive in my opinion.

And that's not to say that we're a unit. Nobody's allowed inside of our inner circle and everybody is

warbled. No, no, no, no, you don't need to be negative and pessimistic about it. However,

if you've got some traditional standards and morals and ethics, those are very popular nowadays

and you have to be very particular about the people you allow in your life, the environment you

put yourself in your children around and it's very much a unit. The way we run our family is

very traditional, very nuclear. Me as the father, I'm the head of the household, I'm supported by

my wife and my sons, they are our team members. They do what they are told, they follow our rules,

but they support at the same time and they understand that we teach them the reasons we do everything.

One of the funniest things that I really think that a lot of especially younger parents don't realize

is your children are always listening constantly and they do not forget. You can test this out with

promising your three-year-old ice cream if they behave. You promise them ice cream, they are not

going to forget that you promise them ice cream from a god old on the way home that day.

I'm going to forget that, right? Well, just yesterday, Jonathan, there's a really old movie called Black

Beards Ghost. It's a really, really funny movie about this little lodge in the New England area.

These three sisters are descendants of Blackbeard and it's a Disney comedy, very PG, very funny. It's

from the 60s or 70s, I think, and it was one of my favorite movies grown up as a kid and I introduced

it to my kids. Now I haven't watched that movie in probably six years, so my other two sons, my

youngest two, weren't even born. My second oldest though, his name is Demetri, he was really young. He

was probably, I think, three last time we watched it. And as God is my witness, Jonathan, I'm not joking

just yesterday. He looks at me. We haven't talked about this movie in years. We haven't seen this

movie in years and he goes, "Dad, do you remember this part in Blackbeards Ghost?" And he just starts to

describe this entire very, very funny scene. I see him and I go, "How the heck do you remember that?"

So I kind of bring this back to my original point, "I promise you your kids are listening and they

do not forget, I don't care how old they are, they are listening and they won't forget."

So to treat my children that way and to treat them like a unit and to treat them like a team,

I'll be a little bit of heart sometimes, I'll go, "Hey, don't pull that with me. You remembered Blackbeards

Ghost from six years ago. Don't pretend that I didn't tell you to pick up your room, right?" So

you know, we need to call the little band and say, "Hey, I know you can remember this. I know you can

do this because you remembered the most obscure movie scene that you shouldn't even remember at three

years old. I know you can remember to do this." And my children understand that responsibility

and we do explain things to them, quite frankly, like their adults. We talk to them like their adults,

we talk to them like their people. We don't dumb things down for them or baby talk or anything like that.

We absolutely set the expectation and don't get me wrong. We're not standing out there because I've

got chickens and we're not standing out there and saying, "Okay, my seven-year-old, you need to do

all of this by yourself." No, you still understand that he's seven, but they are a member of the team

and they can act accordingly and my children do that because we treat them that way. If that makes

sense. That makes a lot of sense and I really appreciated everything that you just said. I remember,

my brother-in-law was a former Marine and there was a big struggle when he got out because

everyone he served with and served around. I mean, they were his brothers. They were family to him

and to make that transition into home life was definitely a struggle. I remember us actually

giving him something with the rifleman's creed reworked a little bit. This is my family. There are

many others like it, but this one is mine. Trying to get him to make that transition over and to

seeing his family as family in the same way that it was in the military and in some ways that

was a challenge and in some ways we saw that stick a little bit. One of the things about

coming home and being back around the family and trying to view it the same way as the

experience, the environment that you left having those brothers, having those friends that you

can really depend on. One of the things that I was told when I got back from deployment is listen.

You're going to come back and you're going to try to be the father of the house. You're going to try

to be the headhunt of the house. My old chief, chief Faye, he looked at all of us and he goes,

"If this is your first deployment and it was mine, he goes, don't do anything." He said, "When you get

back, you need to gently reintroduce yourself into this environment. You've been gone for six months.

They have a routine. They have a method and whatever you're going to come in and do, you're going to

mess it all up. That's just the nature. Your wife is going to get mad at you. Your kids aren't going

to understand. You are going to mess everything back up and being a dad, I was an NCO, a non-commissioned

officer of Staff Sergeant. I'm used to kind of taking authority. I'm used to kind of taking

responsibility and taking initiative and doing things and running things the way that I foresee being

very successful and just running with it and saying, "No, these are the ways we're going to do."

Now, even though my chief told me that, I'll tell you right now, it all went right out the window.

I came back in. I tried to be, you know, dad again and my wife just kind of looked at me like, "What

are you doing? We don't do that. This is the time that they take their naps. This is the time we

eat lunch. This is that." And I was like, "Whoa, what is happening? All of a sudden, I wasn't,

I was dad, but I wasn't a part of that unit anymore." And that was really, really difficult to

experience and the kind of comprehend that, right, even though I left for six months, back home didn't

stop. So I was automatically closer to my team that I just lived with and been through a deployment

with for six months. That was my own team. Those are the guys I was close to instead of my own blood,

instead of my own children, instead of my own wife. I'll say, when I got home, I left when my

second, I only did one tour. I left when my second son, the same child, Demetri, he was six or seven

months old and I got back when he was just over a year. And it was super difficult because he didn't

even recognize me. So when I got home, he was actually terrified of me. He wouldn't come near me for

about a week, five or six days, and he like that. He wouldn't come near me if I got close to him. He

would scream and cry. You know, he didn't know me. He didn't know me. I wasn't a part of this team. I

wasn't a part of this unit anymore. I was completely this foreign person. Now, you know, before that

gets too sad and too down the dumps, don't worry. You know, after about six or seven days, maybe five or

six days, he started to recognize me as the guy that they would do video chat, you know, two or three

times a week. Okay, I think I know who this guy is. And then he really got to realize that, oh, this is

dead. So my son and I are very, very close now. I worked from home a lot. He cries if I'm in my office

for too long. He doesn't see me. So we're very, very close now. Thank goodness. But I think something like

that, getting the rifleman's creed and reworking to be a father, I think that that's beautiful. And

I think that that's a great idea. Something I wish somebody had done for me because the truth is

is that you're absolutely giving up your support system and you're trying to reintroduce yourself into

what you think your system has always been because it's home. It's what you should be used to. It's

what your safe place, quote unquote, should be, but it's not. So I think something like that to reaffirm

that this is your unit, this is your team, this is where you belong. I think that's a beautiful thing.

The military has the stereotype of being very difficult on marriages, difficult on families.

And so I'd like to look at it a little bit differently and ask, how did your military experience

help you to become a really good dad? You know, that's an interesting question because that's

a tough question. And I think any veterans that are out there listening right now, they're probably

going to laugh at that answer because it's true. Being in the military, can I have to make you a great

dad or it can make you a really horrible dad? You know, we see the stereotypes of wake up at five,

have the kids make their bed and you know, kind of the old movie from the 80s or 90s major

pain style parenting, you know, and then there's veteran dads that aren't there at all right because of

like you said, hard on marriage and a divorce or they're not there because they don't want to be

and they can't handle it. There's a lot of different reasons for it right? For me, I think the

military made me a good dad just because it made me want to be home more. It made me when I was home,

I wanted to focus on it more. I see it a lot of time, this isn't a criticism, this is just an

observation of today's society which is when people get home, it's dinner, cell phone movie bed,

wake up, breakfast, work, home dinner, cell phone movie bed right? And there's not,

there's not a lot of necessarily interaction right? Which people can run their families as much as

they want. For me, what it made me do is because I was gone so long, I was gone so many times. And to be clear,

in the military experience, I was home a lot more often than most vets. I did one tour in the Middle

East and I did a couple of stints of training. I was home a lot more than your average veteran. And

when I say this, I hope that that kind of tells people just how gone most veteran dads are, most

veteran husbands are. Because when I was home, it made me obsessive about being present. I would turn

on the blue screen and gray scale on my phone so that my phone wasn't interesting to look at. So if I

did look at something, I would get off of it in 30 seconds instead of getting in the doom scroll,

right? Where you're sitting there for an hour and you're down this rabbit hole of are there

giants and lizards underneath the Denver airport. You know what I mean? But you know, without getting

into something like that, it would help me reassess and come out of it and spend time with my kids,

put my cell phone down, not watch as many movies, maybe read a book or play with play with my child

in a game they came up with or something like that. So for me, I think what the experience did for

me is that because I was gone often, but again, not nearly as often as a lot of other vets, it made

me really want to be present that much more. One or three things you wish civilians understood

about veteran dads. I think that the main takeaway is more of wishing that civilians understood

veterans a little bit more. It's just that we think about things differently. We attack certain

scenarios differently. We're typically on average more disciplines. So if I had to say anything,

I would say I really wish civilians just understood that you're probably not going to understand

it too much. And to kind of give a little exposition on that, my sister-in-law is a CNA at the VA.

So she's an assistant at the Veterans Affairs Hospital here and one of them here in Phoenix.

And my family doesn't really get my humor. It's pretty dark humor. And I've worked really hard

over the last 10 years to kind of mitigate that exposure to my family. And my sister-in-law

said, "She gets it. Let's just say that." Because she works around these veterans and they're not,

they're not, they don't self-center necessarily. So they don't, they don't sugarcoat any of their

jokes. They don't sugarcoat what their humor really is. Whereas me, you know, I've worked very hard.

I'm a clergyman in the church now. I've worked very hard to curb my tongue. I used to have, you know,

the mouth of the sailor, they would say, "When I was in the service, I've worked very hard at

curbing and censoring a lot of the things that come out of my mouth, as well as what entered my brain."

My sister-in-law gets it because she sees a completely unadulterated, you know, very raw form of what

military humor is. And so I would say that civilians can understand anything. Just try to understand

that there's a lot that your average 22-year-old in the service has been through, that your average 70-year-old

civilian has not. There's a lot that they've seen and a lot that they've experienced in just four

years or five years out of high school. And while it's almost incomprehensible for the average civilian,

you don't necessarily have to understand it. Don't degrade it, though. And that's something

that we see a lot. You know, there was that viral TikTok that came that went through of the

the group of like five people. There was one dude. He was marine and listed. And there was like this

college grad PhD in microbiology or something like that. And she fancied herself the smartest person

in the room. The marine and listed dude was just kind of like whatever really degraded upon kind

of made fun of. He turned out to be the smartest one with the highest IQ. So don't degrade our service

you know, don't degrade kind of what we did. I think support, support is the number one thing, especially

foreign listed. I can't tell you the amount of experiences I've had as a prior and listed guy

where I've, because I've worked in the corporate world now to where it really seems like most of

these veterans programs and a lot of these veterans careers, a lot of these initiatives are

or what these corporations are looking for are officers. They're looking for

mild, more mild mannered than your average and listed college degree. And that kind of experience

instead of actually trying to set up what the majority of the military is, which is enlisted.

So I'd say it's support. If you can understand and help with anything, just support. You're not going

to truly be able to step into the shoes. Don't try to. It's a little bit more offensive when people do

try to honestly, but just support. Tell them that you're there for them. What kind of support systems do

veterans need in place to make parenting easier? The support systems that have worked the best for me

were my family. I come from a very healthy, very supportive family. My mom and my dad and my brother.

I only have brothers and I only make sons. So I'm from a very testosterone-fueled environment.

I would say family support going back to that same thing that I mentioned. You're not going to be

able to put yourself in their shoes, but you don't have to just be there for them. And then the other

thing that has been continues to be and always will be super helpful for me is faith. My belief system,

my church and my friends at church, whether it's Christianity, Judaism, Islam, whatever it is,

I've got my opinions of course about which is the right religion and etc. However,

if a support network is there, take advantage of it. I'll give my opinions all day as to

which, you know, theology is the best. I can do that. This isn't that conversation right now,

but one of the things that all religions do very, very well is support for their people. And I think

having a basis of faith, believing in something bigger than yourself, number one, that's a very large

part of a spirit of core in the military anyway, you know, believing in something bigger than yourself,

but continuing that when you get out and having that basis of faith, that number one, there is

something bigger than yourself. Number two, your mission is not over. Your mission is not over when

you get out of the service. God still has a plan for you. And having that community around you

is really important. When I got out of the cert, when I got out of active duty,

and I was running an inpatient pharmacy, I was running an inpatient hospital pretty much,

all the clinics and all the medication for the entire hospital. I got out, I was 21,

and I had just been running this multi-million dollar operation. And I was only qualified to

pretty much file papers when I got into civilian service. That's all I would be hired for is to be

a waiter or to be an administrative assistant at God knows what company. You know, that really hits a

guy's ego. And for guys like that, we're in the army or the Marines, I just was running, you know,

you know, a 20 million piece of equipment, I was running a tank and I was responsible for 15

souls out on the battlefield. And now I'm stocking shelves. I think it's imperative that guys and girls

that were in the military, you have to understand that there's a bigger plan for you. Your mission is

not over. You just have to find it and the things that the family can do and the things that the

community of whatever religion that is, temple, synagogue, church, whatever it is, they can help you

find that next mission because jobs not done. And that's neat to understand that. There's always

there's always more to do and you are valuable. I think that's the most important thing.

I'm glad you brought up church because it's a lot of times, you know, we do have veterans in the

church and we have several veterans in mind. And at first, there's this awkwardness of what do we do

with them? How do we relate to them? How do we work with them and cooperate? And I think the most

important thing that I seem to get out of what you're saying is what veterans need and want the most

out of their church family is exactly, well, I said the word family. They need a simple,

it's as simple as that. They need a family to integrate into. And then the other component of it

is leadership. They bring so much, they bring so many skills, leadership skills, education skills

that they can offer the church that can actually help the church's mission advance.

Absolutely. Yeah. You can't put yourself in their shoes, right? You're going to be a doctor,

you're going to be a lawyer, you're going to be an IT tech, you're going to be whatever it is in

the church. And I get experience that walking in, people know that I was in the military and

they kind of just kind of stare for a second. Okay. I walked into my uniform one time when I was fresh

out of boot camp because I had to leave in my uniform. I couldn't wear civilian clothes and everybody

just kind of stared at me, right? You can't put yourself in my shoes, but you can be there for me.

You can be there for them. Don't try to, you know, when you have kids, everybody says,

oh, well, I'm a dog mom or a cat mom. And I absolutely respect that, but I got to hate it when

people say that. Listen, having a dog in a cat is nothing like having a child. So in that same sense,

no offense to anybody. In that same sense, you can't say, well, you know, when I was going through

a really rough time, waiting tables for 16 hours, it was probably pretty similar to when you were

getting bombed in Syria, right? No, it wasn't. But it wasn't. Don't try to put yourself in those

same shoes. It's not going to work. It's not going to happen. And it's really just going to upset,

not just the veteran, but probably everybody around you. Also, they're going to be like, dude,

what the heck, right? But you can be there for them and go, listen, I have no idea what it's like to

get shot at. I have no idea what it's like to get bombed even for guys that separated from the service

right after bootcamp. The average civilian has no idea what it's like to get off a bus at 18 years old

with all you have is a bag to your name. And all of a sudden have six full grown men screaming at

the top of your lungs at you at one in the morning. Civilians have no idea what that's like. And that is

the very beginning of what the military career is like. That is the initial, that is why they call it

basic training. That is the very basics of what it's like to be in the military. 99% of civilians

have no idea what it's like to be screamed at like that for hours on end in the middle of the night.

So don't try to, you know, say we get it, you don't, but it's okay. Just be there. Just support,

just help in any way that you can, whatever that specific veteran needs.

How can veteran dads or families of veterans get in touch with you to ask questions or get help

with their journey? Absolutely. So again, I'm a, I'm a vice president and financial advisor at a

broker. I love helping vets get work, get jobs. I'm very connected in the Phoenix area, all throughout

Arizona. Please do not hesitate to reach out to me. I've got an Instagram, which is triple one,

TRI PLE, the number one underscore JGP, Juliet Galf Papa. So triple one underscore JGP. I've also

got a LinkedIn, which is just Joseph Pack, reach out to me via LinkedIn. Again, you'll see vice president

financial advisor on my bio reach out to me through there or just shoot me an email. And the email is

nice and simple. It's Joseph, the letter G pack at gmail.com. First name letter G pack at gmail.com.

The number one reason why I'm on this podcast in Jonathan, thank you again for having me on,

is because I want vets to know that it's okay and I am here to help. And there's a lot of people

here to help. But a lot of times, and I myself included vets won't speak up,

you can't do it by yourself. And it's okay to ask for help. And it's okay that you can't do it by

yourself. That's the message I want veterans to have. Reach out, call somebody, talk to somebody,

and if you don't have anybody, email me. Please do it. I'll help you get a job. I'll help you find

a place to live. And I mean that sincerely. Just to make things easier, if you go to thefatherhoodchallenge.com,

that's thefatherhoodchallenge.com. If you go to this episode, look right below the episode description.

I'll have all of the links that Joseph just mentioned posted there for your convenience.

Joseph, as we close, what is your challenge to dads listening now?

For all dads, I would say that can hear me be present. You know, be there with your family,

put the phone down, put the movie away. It's cliche to hear, but the kids grow up fast,

and in an ever-changing world, in a chaotic world like we have right now.

Dads and fathers are crucial to have to raise the next generation. And they need you to be present.

Be there with them, support them, and take your life out to dinner and buy your flowers. She earned it.

Joseph, on behalf of myself and thefatherhoodchallenge, thank you so much for your service to this

country, and thank you so much for being on thefatherhoodchallenge. My pleasure, and thank you, Jonathan,

for having me. It's been a pleasure. Thank you for listening to this episode of The Fatherhood Challenge.

If you would like to contact us, listen to other episodes, find any resource mentioned in this program,

or find out more information about thefatherhoodchallenge, please visit thefatherhoodchallenge.com.

That's thefatherhoodchallenge.com.

Support this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/thefatherhoodchallengepodcast/donations