Improving Intimacy in Latter-day Saint Relationships

We hear about the dangers of pornography, rightfully so. But can pornography ever be helpful in the process of healing from trauma and with one's sexual identity? In this podcast Sarah bravely shares her story as a faithful LDS who experienced sexual assault and how pornography helped her reclaim her identity and heal from the abuse. 

0:00:00.0 Speaker 1: Welcome to Improving Intimacy, a podcast to help single and married Latter-Day Saints strengthen their family connections and marriages. Daniel A. Burgess is the host of Improving Intimacy. Daniel's a marriage and family therapist, father, husband, and author. Here's Daniel on this episode of improving intimacy.

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0:00:24.6 Daniel A. Burgess: Welcome to another episode of improving intimacy. On today's episode, we have Sarah who has offered to go into a very vulnerable and maybe even scary past with sexual assault and what you did to... Is it fair to say, heal or recover? Thrive in spite of that tragedy. So welcome, Sarah, I'm glad to have you here. This is a topic I haven't discussed yet, so one, I wanna be sensitive to your background and history, and I'll let you guide the conversation, but you've expressed the importance of sharing this for other people, so I'm excited to hear what you have to say. So Sarah, tell us a little bit about yourself. Why are you here today, and what is it exactly you wanna share?

0:01:11.7 Sarah: Well, thank you first of all for having me on. I am very passionate about this because I remember growing up thinking that this was... I was surely the only person who this was happening to, and then as we'll discuss later, some issues that came up in marriage that just increased that feeling of isolation and shame and loneliness, and I vowed at the time to... If I ever have an opportunity to talk about it, to talk about it so that someone out there is not feeling the same way I did. So that's why I'm so passionate about this, and I think we can just start with that kind of history of what it was like to grow up and date and then move into a marriage and have some of those same issues with little education.

0:01:53.5 DB: Yes, it's an important topic that we don't discuss a lot now, I appreciate your bravery in doing this, so let's... We don't need to go in, you're welcome to go into as much details you absolutely want, but for context, are you comfortable with sharing maybe the age this happened? So that we have a little understanding of the history of what's going on there and any details that you're comfortable with sharing.

0:02:18.0 Sarah: Sure, so I grew up just in a normal LDS family, a very strong LDS family, all my siblings remained active, so I had great role models, looking up to them, I was active in a Young Women's, everything was just in line for the perfect fairytale story. And I never really dated much in high school, and I just remember thinking, "Oh, I just want a boyfriend so badly," and I watched all my friends date and I just thought, "Oh, that sounds so wonderful. That's something that I'd really like." And then I had my first boyfriend, and we went out on a few dates, and I was 17 at the time. And I remember thinking, being so excited for the first kiss, and then the first kiss happened and when within maybe five to 10 seconds, my shirt was off and he was un-fastening my bra clasp and I thought...

0:03:12.7 DB: So you mean he took it off...

0:03:14.1 Sarah: Yeah, yeah, he... It was like first kiss, peck, and then I thought I was gonna have this time to like, "Oh, kinda float away and enjoy this moment of happy ever after", and I was like, "Whoa, what is going on?" And I didn't know what was going on, I didn't know what these things I was feeling, what they were, and I was just very overwhelmed with the situation and I didn't stop anything, 'cause I think I was just struck with terror and just being overwhelmed and thinking, "Well, no one's talked about what this is, I don't know what is going on." And I don't actually even remember how that ended, but I remember leaving, sitting in the car feeling like I can't go home. My parents are gonna know that I broke the Law of Chastity, I wouldn't have to talk to the bishop who's my best friend's dad...

0:04:06.0 DB: You felt responsible for it.

0:04:09.7 Sarah: 100%. It was my fault, 100%. And just that was the beginning of... And I was 17 years old, that was the beginning of not talking to my parents about these experiences, thinking that I was the only one, but also thinking that that's what every girl was experiencing.

0:04:26.9 DB: You had no idea?

0:04:27.6 Sarah: Yeah. I was the only one, yeah, I was the only one responsible but every other girl surely had to be having these experiences, but it wasn't their fault. So that was just kind of the beginning of a long trail, and I didn't necessarily at that time know that that was sexual assault. I just kind of thought, "That's dating, here we go." [chuckle]

0:04:49.3 DB: How scary.

0:04:50.9 Sarah: So scary. And he was preparing to go on a mission, and so I was like, "Oh well, he's this great guy who's gonna go and serve the Lord and do all these things, and surely it's my fault." And I'd been raised with this mentality that modesty is my responsibility and how I dress will directly impact what boys do to me and how boys think.

0:05:12.6 DB: And that's what you're thinking was your fault?

0:05:16.6 Sarah: Totally.

0:05:17.1 DB: Was because... Do you feel like you were dressed immodestly that evening?

0:05:19.6 Sarah: No, actually, I had come from playing a volleyball game, so I had been wearing athletic gear and in my mind, I'm like sweaty and gross. [chuckle] No one wants to do that, right? And also, I should note that I developed rather quickly as a child, I was... I started puberty at 10 years old, so at 10 years old, I was fully grown as a woman, and I think I internalized a lot of shame about that, of having this really grown-up body and this little girl's brain and not really understanding how to handle both of those mindsets. So when that happened, it was like, "Oh, well, that's because I have this grown woman's body, [chuckle] and he can't control himself."

0:06:03.9 DB: And therefore, it was your fault.

0:06:05.3 Sarah: Oh, totally. Totally. So that was the first experience. Then I graduated high school, he went on a mission, and I just kept having experience after experience with these boys who were raised in the same faith that I was raised in, who had just no concept of boundaries. I just started to think that if I was going to be kissed, I was gonna be touched, and there was nothing really that I could do to stop it, it was just normal. I came to expect that of good return missionaries, good boys who were leaving on missions, that was just what dating was for me. I didn't think anything different.

0:06:49.7 DB: I think that's the most tragic thing I'm hearing... Well, one, the most tragic thing is that you were abused, I guess the close second is that you weren't even aware that you were abused and taken advantage of, and at what point did you look back and say That was wrong. That wasn't my fault?

0:07:09.4 Sarah: Not until I was married.

0:07:11.3 DB: Oh, wow.

0:07:14.3 Sarah: Yeah. And because I had nothing to compare it to. I didn't know anything about sex, I didn't know anything about consent, I didn't know... And at this point, I didn't even know that girls could masturbate. [chuckle] I literally thought that it was just a boy thing.

0:07:27.2 DB: Oh, you mean physiologically.

0:07:29.4 Sarah: Yes. I didn't think it was possible. I knew absolutely nothing about sex and about body, so this was happening, and I was just thinking, "Oh, this is just normal." So I didn't equate it with abuse, I wasn't having traumatic reactions to it, but I did start to kind of spiral a little bit where I just kind of thought, "Well, if guys are gonna do this to me, then I'm just gonna kiss and have fun with whoever I want and do whatever I want and.

0:07:54.2 DB: Interesting.

0:07:56.0 Sarah: Not worry about the consequences."

0:07:58.1 DB: Tell me a little bit more about that line of thinking, what led you to that as opposed to not dating at all, maybe, or some other... I don't wanna put words in your mouth. What gave you that conclusion, you're just gonna have fun, you're gonna kiss and regardless of the consequences, what led you there?

0:08:19.4 Sarah: I think part of it was I was seeing my dear friends get married, from what I understand, and maybe they had been through similar things and just hadn't talked to me about it, but they were getting married and I wasn't. And so I kind of thought, "Oh, well, I'm just like the girl who's gonna get passed around.

0:08:38.7 DB: Oh my goodness.

0:08:38.7 Sarah: So, I'm gonna have fun in the meantime."

0:08:41.3 DB: So you were taken on a narrative that you were broken or undesired, or would that be fair to say, or what were your feelings or thoughts?

0:08:49.9 Sarah: I wasn't feeling broken, but I was feeling very much... They're just interested in my body, they're not interested in a long-term commitment, they're not interested in marriage, I'm not like these other girls, they're the marriageable type, they're just in it for my body, and at the same time, I was kind of having this body awakening where I was finally feeling my brain match up with my body in maturity, I was feeling like, "Oh, I'm coming into this woman's body, I'm feeling myself become less impulsive, I'm feeling myself develop as mentally as a woman, I'm leaving that childhood teenage years behind, I'm feeling empowered in my body. And at the same time, I'm only being wanted for my body." So I was like, "I'm just gonna use my body however I want."

0:09:42.7 DB: I'm curious, we talked about this a little before we started the podcast, and we shared some thoughts and ideas here, but for the listeners, you're in your mid-20s, just for context, so we're talking about a younger generation, and I realize... I have a good 20 years on you, and dating has always been a struggle, and so I don't know if there's a way to say it's worse now or better or the same, however, in the context that it seems like we as a church have been doing more, whether it be through fire sides or church manuals, really emphasizing how men are supposed to treat women with respect, I think they've done more with that in the last 20 years, yet, you're not alone. This is a story I hear all the time, you're just one of the first, who've been willing to come and talk about it. Tell me what are your thoughts, what's your opinion of why the young men are thinking this way, why do they think this is, okay, or do they think it's Okay?

0:10:49.2 Sarah: Well, and we know that sexual assault and rape has been around for as long as people have been on the earth, that's just... It's just the downfall of man... Well, and woman, both can be abusers or perpetrators, but I think in the context of this, there was this generation of 60s and 70s where it was free love and the world was going so radically in one direction that the church narrative pulled so radically in the other direction. I remember talking to my mom like years later, after I had actually been more assaulted and saying, "Why didn't you tell me, why didn't you tell me what to expect or tell me anything about my body, or just tell me what sex is? And she said, "Your father and I felt like if we talked about it, we were giving you permission to do it." And that to me, was just that mindset of that generation, the policies that were coming out from the church in that generation was all fear-based, shame-based and at the same time, there's more material available, so our children at this time are educating themselves with porn, which is a terrible sex educator, and they're not learning, they're not reconciling what they're seeing, what feeling and what the person in the porn is doing.

0:12:09.5 Sarah: And so if the person in porn who's on the receiving end is showing fear and showing discomfort and these young boys are watching it enjoying it, how are they to not know that it's gonna be different in person with a partner? Now how are they not... They're not gonna know, "Oh, this is a boundary that I'm crossing. This person is scared, their body is showing scared, their face is showing fear, their voice is showing fear, they may not have said, no," but... We've set them up for failure, we've set them up in this position of not knowing they're crossing boundaries, not knowing what consent is, because we've been so afraid to talk about it.

0:12:54.6 DB: I think you articulated it perfectly, this is a constant problem I'm seeing. I usually see two extremes where young men refuse to date or they don't know how to engage in dating at all, and so they don't even... It's not even a physical thing, they don't even know how to involve themselves, and again, this has always been the case, but I've been seeing this kind of this extremism getting bigger and bigger.

0:13:23.1 Sarah: The divide.

0:13:24.4 DB: And then we have the others who, while they understand that porn is bad, and it seems like in the church we've done, we've talked more about porn, we have more anti-porn programs and organizations out there than we've ever had yet this is becoming a bigger and bigger issue. And I think what I was hearing you say was, "Yes, we're told... " And I wanna clarify for the audience too, 'cause it could sound like we're saying, "Oh gosh, the church screwed up in all of its teachings there... " Do you consider yourself an active member now?

0:13:55.0 Sarah: Yeah.

0:13:55.1 DB: And this is...

0:14:00.1 Sarah: Yep, active member, temple holding member, half callings... I was the Young Women's president just barely.

0:14:03.7 DB: Forgive me, I didn't wanna make that as though that was the most important thing here, I just wanna give context that this isn't just criticism, this is crucial for a healthy, engaging dating behavior. Absolutely, and so what we see here is young men who're told what not to do, and you said it before the interview, it's because they're not taught what to do. We could talk all day and night about what not to do, but when you're placed in a situation, all you have to go off of is what you've seen and heard, and that's the don'ts and the bad role models of porn.

0:14:43.4 Sarah: Exactly. And at the same time as a girl, the rhetoric that I was receiving was not what not to do, dress your body in this way so that the boys can control their thoughts, you act this way so that you're not tempting to the boys. There was all this don't, don't, don't. And it very much was my responsibility how the boys and the men in my life treated me, and I have a fantastic father, and I have fantastic brothers who never once crossed any sort of sexual boundary, never even came close to it with anyone that I'm aware of, not with myself and not anyone else, but it was... I remember walking up to the stand to give a Young Women talk thinking, "Oh my gosh, are the men in the ward like looking at my butt?"

0:15:28.3 DB: Oh my goodness.

0:15:29.1 Sarah: As I walk up there, "Is my skirt too tight? Are my hips too wide? Am I... [chuckle] Are they cheating on their wives by lusting after me?"

0:15:37.6 DB: Because... Oh my goodness.

0:15:38.1 Sarah: And I was like 16.

0:15:41.8 DB: First of all, the thought that comes to me is, "No youth, should ever be concerned with that thinking about that," and you're saying those fears and concerns were present because of the modesty lessons that you've received.

0:15:53.0 Sarah: Totally.

0:15:55.7 DB: And thinking that you need to do everything you can to help protect these men, young and old from being tempted.

0:16:03.8 Sarah: Totally.

0:16:06.0 DB: That's heavy.

0:16:07.4 Sarah: Super heavy.

0:16:07.9 DB: This is heavy, and I'm gonna diverge just a little bit here, because I think it's important to speak to... People are probably listening here and saying, "Oh gosh, Well, if young men understand that porn is bad, then why are they behaving... " Okay, I hear that they weren't taught how to behave correctly, a little insight that I've discovered in working with young men is this kind of same thing again, they have been tempted, they cannot resist their urges... Sorry, this is the scripts that they're told once they experience desire, they're on a dangerous path. One support group, and I don't mean to be critical, but the concern is one support group actually says it's Satan's Chemical, and this is an LDS support group, so imagine... So the reason why I'm bringing this up is you as a 16-year-old, you were concerned about married men sinning by looking at you.

0:17:10.4 Sarah: Yes.

0:17:10.4 DB: And now, with young men, what I've seen is something similar, different, but similar in that they start to have this experience where they're getting aroused, they have an erection, they immediately think, they're doomed. I had one 14-year-old tell me, I thought... I thought he... I'm not trying to be loose with my words or silly at all, this is the impression and his countenance when he came in, I thought he killed somebody. This kid was scared and he looked at me and he started to say things like, young man saying things like, "I'm on the path to becoming a rapist, I'm on a path to become a serial killer." He was saying these things, and then he said something that just... That alone was scary and heavy, but where I'm going with this is, he said, "I've also destroyed my... " What was the word he used? He said something to the effect of, "I've disappointed my future wife and let my future kids down."

0:18:18.6 Sarah: That's so sad.

0:18:19.9 DB: Just like you... Well, again, different, but like you're carrying this huge weight, so these young men, what I'm seeing is they feel like they're at this impossible journey.

0:18:32.0 DB: And so, they just give up and they say, "I'm just doing it, I'm already gone." And this poor kid, he was scared out of his mind. So people are probably listening say, "Still why would... " Well, because they're not taught what is good, so all they're going off of is their fear and they're giving in because they recognize, they can't even resist it, it seems impossible. That relate to your experience or what are your thoughts?

0:19:01.9 Sarah: Totally. Well, it's... Looking back now, and even at the time, I thought, "These were good guys." In every other regard, they were good guys. And then, I think it just was... There was no boundary, there was no consent. It's hard because we've damaged both, both genders in this talk, we've told the girls that it's their responsibility and they're... Sorry for the strong language, but they're damned for having the female bodies, and we've told the boys they're damned for having physiological responses that they can't control. [chuckle] And this is the extreme that I think we deal with is... I was 21 years old and my minor was sex education, and I remember sitting at the University of Utah, going and my professor saying female masturbation and going, "That's not possible." I was 21, and I had no clue that that was something that girls did, because I had only ever heard masturbation in reference to boys in the church, and that was the extent of my sex education, that was a mind-blowing thing of like, "Holy cow." We have hurt each other so badly just by not knowing, A How our bodies work. B, our bodies are working normally, and C, let's now communicate with each other. None of that was in my vocabulary.

0:20:30.0 Sarah: So to kind of continue with my story...

0:20:31.2 DB: Please.

0:20:31.5 Sarah: I kinda went through this rough patch where I was like, "I'm just gonna kiss anyone who has two legs and walks into the room." And at the same time, I'm still... I'm the secretary in the Relief Society presidency in my singles ward, and I feel like I'm living these two separate lives. There's the version of me who is dating and there's a version of me who's going to church and I can't reconcile them. And then the age I turned in my mission papers and I said, "I'm gonna go on a mission, that's gonna be what's kinda turned my life around, I'm gonna go on a mission." So I got myself straightened out, I went on a mission, I had a great time, I came back, and then I started dating again. And this guy who I was dating, I thought, "This is gonna be different." He took a couple of weeks to kiss me, we went out for a couple of times, and my mission for me was very empowering because I learned how to speak up and out for myself, I think it's really hard to go on a mission and not kinda gain that confidence, a little bit in yourself. So I came back with that confidence of, I'm gonna...

0:21:47.6 Sarah: Now I know how to say no. And then I started dating this guy, and it's like, "Oh, it's different." He's being such a gentleman. And this could be, this could be the long-term thing, and then things started to change again.

0:22:01.3 DB: My goodness.

0:22:03.7 Sarah: So we had to hung out one night and his parents had left out of town, and he was like, "Why don't you come out, you come over, and we'll just, hang out and it'll be a really good evening, and... " I ended up spending the night. And nothing like nothing happened during the night, we just fell asleep in the bed, we cuddled all night long, there was no sexual pressure, and then it was in the middle of the night, something changed, and then suddenly it was like he was begging me to do all of these things, and I just said, "What is wrong with you? What has happened?" And...

0:22:44.2 DB: You called him out.

0:22:45.2 Sarah: I called him out, and he... And then I just said to him, "When was the last time you looked at porn?" And he disclosed to me that he... And he said he'd had a porn addiction since he was 14. And at this stage in my life, I was like, "Oh, well, that's okay. I know a lot of guys deal with that, so this isn't gonna end our relationship, but I want you to work through it and I want you to talk to the bishop, and I don't expect perfection, but I do want respect." So I'm thinking, I'm so grown up, I'm having this really grown-up conversation. This guy is telling... I won't go too far into what I think about that now, but for the context of the story at this time, I was thinking, "I'm so great that I can work through this with him, and he's so great that he's being honest with me." So I think we're on a great path and we keep dating, and then he just starts walking across that boundary again, and I just keep thinking, "Oh my gosh, I've gotta fix him, I've got to be sexier, so he's not looking at porn. I've got to... " And I was trying so hard not to do the things that he was wanting me to do, and at the same time he was telling me, "If you don't do these things, I'm gonna look at porn."

0:24:02.9 DB: Oh my goodness.

0:24:04.8 Sarah: So again, I'm like, "Holy crap, how am I back at this spot where I'm again responsible for this guy's sexuality?" At the same time he's telling me he loves me and he wants to get married, there was just something about the relationship that was making me stick my heels. And if, "We're not gonna be exclusive, we're gonna date other people, 'cause you can't figure this out, and until you can figure this out, I'm not jumping in with you." And I think honestly, that was probably, is the spirit trying to keep me safe, and I didn't recognize it at the time, but... This was the relationship where it turned violent pretty quick.

0:24:42.4 DB: Physically violent?

0:24:43.3 Sarah: Sexually violent. So there was just a lot of fear involved in it, there was a lot of manipulation, there was me saying, No. Me begging to stop, and there was just, No, I'm gonna do what I'm gonna do." But it had never turned into full penetration, and then he at some point in the relationship, he brings up marriage again, "If we get married, I'll be able to stop looking at this porn because we'll be able to do everything that we want. It won't be... "

0:25:14.2 DB: Such a lack of education there.

[laughter]

0:25:17.1 Sarah: Huge lack of education.

0:25:17.9 DB: Or bad education.

0:25:21.6 Sarah: Yeah.

0:25:21.7 DB: Oh my goodness, and...

0:25:21.8 Sarah: And I'm believing it, because I don't have any education either, so... And my minor now is in sex education and I'm like, "Sure...

0:25:30.2 DB: Yeah, I was going to bring that up.

0:25:30.3 Sarah: Great. This will fix it." 'Cause that's what we've been taught in the church is like, you get married and then it's, "No, it's no, no, no, to go, go go, and all your sexual problems are gone."

0:25:38.4 DB: Yeah, it's one of the biggest myths. I don't think it's fair to say a lie, because I think the leadership and the people who are saying this truly believe it, I don't think they're being deceptive, but it just goes to the core of this whole podcast episode is the lack of education. The lack of good education, not just in the negative, but in informative strategies, and I don't even know where that idea came from, that if you get married, the porn habit goes away. That couldn't be further from the truth.

0:26:11.0 Sarah: Right?

0:26:12.1 DB: If it does, it's coincidental. That's mere coincidence. We could talk about that a little bit more, but this is sad, this is the thing that is most upsetting to me when working with people who have a lack of sexual education, 'cause all they know is porn is bad, but they have no idea of what it looks like to have a healthy relationship. So you're dealing with this. Are you able to say... Can you say, how you got out of it, or what did you do?

0:26:46.4 Sarah: Yeah. So there were... So while we were dating, I kept thinking, there's this other guy who I know, we're really good friends. If he would just come to me and just say, "Hey, would you marry me? I would do it in a heartbeat." I just felt so strongly about this friend, and at the same time this other guy is treating me so poorly, and I'm thinking it's all my fault, and I'm feeling so guilty and I'm going to my Bishop and I'm telling my Bishop, "These things are happening. How do I fix them?" And he's giving me more tools than anyone ever had, he's giving me books about pornography, he's giving me... Which were I think, [chuckle] very skewed towards the church's narrative. I don't think they were necessarily a scientifically-based, they were much more along the basis of, "It's an addiction. It's the same thing as doing cocaine", which is absolutely not true.

0:27:44.9 DB: I wanna get into that. And of course, I don't wanna diverge you... I do wanna come back to that. So he was helpful. Was that... At what point... Okay, so what you're saying is that guidance was helpful in ending this current relationship?

0:28:00.5 Sarah: It was helpful in knowing that it wasn't just my fault.

0:28:03.0 DB: Okay.

0:28:03.3 Sarah: And that I could be empowered in the relationship, and he was the first person who kind of said to me like, "If this isn't the future you want, then you don't have to be in it."

0:28:14.2 DB: Good for him.

0:28:15.1 Sarah: Right? And so, but there was still... And that's the hard part about Bishops is that, I think if it had been someone with clinical understanding, they would have said, "This is an abusive relationship," and instead it was like, "If you just don't want porn to be a part of your relationship, just date someone else." And I was like, "Well, that would be nice, but open your eyes, that's not possible."

0:28:40.3 DB: Exactly.

0:28:40.8 Sarah: So at this point, I'm taking my garments off, 'cause I just feel so unworthy and...

0:28:48.7 DB: You weren't instructed to, you just chose to.

0:28:51.1 Sarah: No. And I'm just myself choosing not to take the sacrament, 'cause I just feel so unworthy. And then this guy who I've thought so much about calls me out of the blue and he's like, "Hey, let's go to lunch." And we go to lunch one day and I just thought, "Okay, I'm ending it. I'm ending it because there's something about this guy, I'm gonna end it." So I did, I ended this relationship, then I didn't hear from this guy again. [chuckle]

0:29:20.6 DB: The guy you were interested?

0:29:21.7 Sarah: Yeah. The guy that I was interested, who kinda gave me hope again for men, and I was like, "Well, that's probably better, 'cause I'm in the spot where I probably need to do some healing and working on myself and... " So I don't date anyone for a while, and I work on myself, and then I'm getting lonely, getting really lonely, and I run into this guy who I had been... This guy who I'd been in the relationship with, and I run into him on campus and he's like, "Hey, do you wanna come over?"

0:30:00.3 DB: Even though you've cut it off?

0:30:00.5 Sarah: Yeah, I've cut off. It's been months and I was so lonely that I was like...

0:30:03.9 DB: 'Cause, there's no boundaries.

0:30:05.0 Sarah: Yeah, there's no boundaries and I'm just lonely. So I'm like, "Yeah, of course," it's like, we're good friends and I still cared about him even though, 'cause I didn't know that it was an abusive relationship.

0:30:14.5 DB: Right. And I'm making an assumption here. You just said that you were really lonely, and do you feel like that played into you saying yes also, or...

0:30:26.4 Sarah: Yeah, totally. I just was... I was lonely, all my friends had been married, I'm just back from my mission. [chuckle] It's a hard transition back. We've been dating for seven or eight months when we ended it, so now it's probably like nine or 10 months after, and so we just start talking again, we just started being friends. And then, the other guy who I was interested in at the other time, he calls me up, and he's like, "Do you wanna go on a date?"

0:30:57.9 DB: His timing is interesting.

0:31:00.8 Sarah: At the same time. Yes. So at the same time, these guys are like back in my life at the exact same time, and... So long story short, I ended up saying... This is gonna be so confusing probably to the listeners, but I ended up saying to this guy who I had been dating, "Hey, this other guy asked me out." And, 'cause we were just friends and something... I saw something in his eyes switch. He was like, "Oh, well, yeah, you always talked about him and how much you liked him and how much you respected him, and he's kind of the obstacle that was in our path of us moving forward." I was like, "Not really."

0:31:37.6 DB: Rather he's... The hope in saving you?

0:31:38.9 Sarah: Yeah, I was like, No, it was probably the narrative, but I had, was that I was responsible for your sexuality, for your porn use, and I couldn't fix that anymore, so he ended up asking me to join him for the middle of the day for lunch, and I went over...

0:31:58.3 DB: Which one?

0:31:58.3 Sarah: The guy who I had dated.

0:32:00.7 DB: Okay.

0:32:00.9 Sarah: So I went over to his house during lunch, we left campus together, he drove me there and we were... I remember thinking, "Okay, are we ever gonna eat lunch?" 'Cause we just sat in his room for a while, and then he raped me. And I just remember laying there and it just started off as just normal kissing, and I was like, "Hey, this is weird, but where is this going?" And then it was right back to 17-year-old me who suddenly was being touched and this time I was saying, "No, please stop. No, I don't want this." And it happened anyway. And so that happens, and I looked at him afterwards and he got up and he said, "Let's go back to school." And I looked at him and I hugged him. I hugged him, and I said, "I didn't want that to happen." And I hugged him, 'cause I was so scared that I wasn't gonna be, like I wasn't gonna survive or something, like... My brain just went in to do whatever you need to do to get out of there.

0:33:09.1 DB: Trauma mode.

0:33:09.9 Sarah: Oh, totally. So we got back at school and then I called my... I texted my friend and I texted her and I said, "I just had sex. What do I do now?" And this friend had had sex before marriage as well when she was dating.

0:33:26.6 DB: Not, I was raped, and how do I report him, but what do you do?

0:33:30.1 Sarah: No. No. 100 percent, in my mind it was, "I had had sex." So I call her and she's like, "Oh, it's okay, you'll be okay, it's hard, but you can... You might not be able to take the sacrament for a couple of months, but you can get back and call your Bishop and... " So at this point, I am about to go into work, I'm sick to my stomach, I am shaking and I think, "I just had sex for the first time." So I call my Bishop, I go to the Bishop's office or I go to his house, 'cause it was a Friday night and I'm just devastated, and I walk in and he's like, "What can I do for you?" And I slide my temple garment across the table to him, and I'm like, "I'm no longer worthy of this." And he was like, "Okay, well, tell me what happened?" And so I start saying, start describing to him what happened, and.

0:34:24.6 DB: Is this is the same Bishop that provided you good resources? .

0:34:27.2 Sarah: Yes. Thank goodness.

0:34:27.8 DB: Yes.

0:34:28.4 Sarah: Same Bishop, and he stops me and he says, "No, you didn't have sex. You were raped." And it just suddenly was like, "That's what that was."

0:34:39.2 DB: He called it out.

0:34:39.4 Sarah: He called it out.

0:34:41.1 DB: Excellent.

0:34:41.6 Sarah: Yes, and he said, "I have, I've known you for a while. I've been working with you for a while, from what you've described, your relationship with this guy, you've tried really, really hard, and he has not respected that, and he took full advantage of you and he raped you." And I just sat there stunned. I finally had a word for what was happening, and thank goodness, this Bishop was so in tune and he said, "You know, I don't know how to help you." He said, "I can help you with spiritual healing if you need it, but I don't know how to help you and I'm gonna pay for you to find help." 'Cause at this point, I also didn't have insurance and I was too afraid to tell my parents, so I'm like, [chuckle] "Ah, what do I do?" And I didn't go to the hospital to get any forensic exams done, 'cause I didn't know I had been raped, and suddenly here's this ecclesiastical leader pointing me in the direction of help, and it was life-saving, so he paid for me to see a therapist and I was in therapy within a week, and that made all the difference in my life. And I had a male therapist where... He said, "I'm gonna send you to a male therapist" and I said, "What have you been smoking Bishop? I'm not gonna go sit across from a man and tell him what happened." And he said, "I think that you need a man to listen to you." And so I had to sit...

0:36:02.1 DB: This Bishop wasn't a counsel, he had no training.

0:36:05.1 Sarah: No. No training.

0:36:07.6 DB: This is interesting. Sorry, I think this is actually an important concept that a lot of...

0:36:12.6 Sarah: Totally.

0:36:12.7 DB: People don't realize. When I was working, in my training, I was serving the community in a community center, and that was the first time that I found women who had been raped were asking for male therapists, and that was before I really understood something called Gestalt therapy, if you're familiar.

0:36:30.3 Sarah: Yes. Yeah.

0:36:32.4 DB: And this is their opportunity... There's many reasons to do this, and there are some... I wanna be clear, there are some reasons not to do it either also, and so what this allows, and I'm curious to hear your experiences is, I like how the Bishop said, is it gives a man an opportunity, you get to have a man listen to you and validate you. It also provides the victim an opportunity in a gestalt model for those who aren't familiar, there's this concept of empty chair or imagining that the therapist is your aggressor and you lash out at them in a therapeutic way or whatever, you confront them that way, and so it can be very therapeutic if you're ready for that. It's always hard to tell. But what was your experience? So he suggested this, it looked like you're a little surprised.

0:37:25.1 Sarah: Totally.

0:37:26.4 DB: But you followed through and you found a male therapist?

0:37:28.0 Sarah: Yeah, he actually gave me a referral, he said I... He had had a friend who was a therapist or was very aware of clinical concepts or whatever that... She suggested I see a man. So he gave me the number, I called and made the appointment myself. And I walked in not really knowing what to expect. I had never been to therapy before, and I walked in and I sat down and just kind of started talking about my life and my past and everything that was going on in this relationship and being stuck on the concept of like, "I had lost my virginity." One thing that he said in that first day was, "No. No, you don't lose your virginity, that's a social construct, you don't lose your virginity. No one takes that from you." And that was the beginning of realizing, "Okay, I've got some very unhealthy and harmful narratives in my mind, and I need to change them."

0:38:26.9 DB: So, you're presenting this is as very accepting and like, "Oh, yeah." What's it like that for you at the moment? Did you push back at all? Did you... What was your awakening, healing process like, was it difficult to receive that information or was it healing?

0:38:43.5 Sarah: The difference was, is that he was clinically trained, and so he... As opposed to saying it to a bishop or a parent, he had this clinical training to... I could see the surprise on his face when I was telling him these things that I thought were normal. And so, much like, right now, I'm telling you things and you have these surprise looks on your face and it's so validating.

0:39:04.9 DB: Oh good. [laughter]

0:39:06.9 Sarah: Right? It is 100% validating to think, "These things that I thought were normal, that every girl experienced, are horrifying to this man, and he would never treat a girl this way or a female this way." And I can see it on his face. And he's a member of the church, and this isn't right.

0:39:24.4 DB: The therapist?

0:39:25.3 Sarah: Yeah, this therapist. So that was probably what made me actually accept it, was that, "Here's this guy who believes the same thing I do, who is horrified and shocked and in tears at some point with what I'm telling him and how I've assumed and accepted as a normal behavior."

0:39:47.6 DB: You can't... I don't know, I can't speak for every therapist, but I've heard stories and no two stories are the same. Everybody's experience is unique, but it's heart wrenching each time. I hope, one, I hope I never get used to hearing it. If I do, I need to check myself.

[laughter]

0:40:11.7 DB: It's heart-breaking, and again, to repeat what you're saying, this at the beginning... This is why it's so important for you to speak out and I appreciate that. So, continue from there. What was your journey like? How long were you in therapy? What was your discoveries along that path?

0:40:28.7 Sarah: Well, I think the most important discovery that we made in therapy together was I had this pattern of dating guys who I thought I could fix. 'Cause that was also a narrative that I had taken on is like, "As a disciple of Christ and as a woman of Christ, I have to fix people and I'm gonna make them better." And he said, "You date these people who you think you need to fix, and this is... So, this is like you're going along in your car, and I want you to think of your rape as like you've hit a brick wall. And that brick wall is stopping you from what could be." And I remember thinking, "Oh my gosh, if I had married that guy, this would have been my life, and I would not have known." And it always shocks people when I say this, but I will say it, I'm so grateful for it. I'm so grateful for that experience because I walked out of therapy going, "Not again. No one will ever treat me that way again, and I'm not gonna date a guy who's gonna treat me like that." And long story short, I ended up marrying that other guy.

0:41:33.8 DB: The one that was...

[chuckle]

0:41:34.1 Sarah: Yeah. The one who I always wanted to date while I was dating this other guy. We got our act together and we ended up getting married. So, that was... And he was the exact opposite. He was the guy... And ironically, I thought before this experience, I was never good enough for him, either. He's this amazing, incredible guy, and I was like, "I'm not good enough." And I walked out of therapy going, "Oh, I am so good enough for him, and he would be so lucky to have me."

[laughter]

0:42:06.6 DB: What a wonderful discovery. And you brought up something that we kind of glossed over it. I can't tell you how many women end up marrying a situation like that where, because they don't have this discovery, and I'm not... This is tragic. And it's years later that they discover this was horrible. So I appreciate, and I realize it's probably difficult for a lot of people to hear it. We're clearly not saying the abuse was okay.

0:42:36.4 Sarah: No, not at all.

0:42:39.3 DB: But that, as a result, you were awakened, it was an opportunity to get help and to discover more. I'm sure it wasn't as simple as having that discovery and everything's better.

0:42:53.6 Sarah: No, not at all.

0:42:53.7 DB: What was that journey like from there on out? So, you're dating your husband, and...

0:42:58.3 Sarah: So, we're dating, and I'm thinking, "Okay, that's the end of our... The end of my sexual problems." [chuckle] And again, great guy, we start dating, he takes like a month to kiss me and then it's just like little pecks here and there for months, and I'm finally like, "Hey... "

0:43:14.0 DB: Is he aware of this recent experience yet?

0:43:18.1 Sarah: So at this point, no, at this point...

0:43:21.0 DB: So, he's acting all on his accord, he's not... He's not like over...

0:43:23.2 Sarah: Yes. He's not being over-aware or over-sensitive or over-thinking anything.

0:43:28.6 DB: I think that's important for the listeners to know.

0:43:29.0 Sarah: Totally. Yeah.

0:43:30.2 DB: So this is... You found a guy who's true to his behavior here. This is...

0:43:35.5 Sarah: Yeah. He is living his behavior, he is showing me his behavior. And I'm starting to get worried of like, "Okay, why is this not unfolding? Why are we not progressing at all?" And...

0:43:46.8 DB: Isn't that interesting? You're expecting this will happen.

0:43:51.3 Sarah: Yes. I'm expecting that this will happen, 'cause I wanted to, know... I wanted to be able to say no, I like, I was gonna set those boundaries and like we're gonna talk about them, there's gonna be none of this business going on. And he kisses me one night and I pull away from him and I go, "Why won't you kiss me for longer?" And he goes, "I don't wanna have an erection." And I was like, "What? [chuckle] What are you saying?" And he said, "If I have an erection, I'm being disrespectful to you."

0:44:19.0 DB: Wow.

0:44:19.5 Sarah: And he said, My... He had a Bishop when he was 16, tell him the erections were breaking law of chastity, and I was like, "Hey, buddy, if we're kissing and you don't have that response, there's something wrong. There's a bigger issue." [laughter] I was just was so shocked.

0:44:38.7 DB: You had such insight... You had that insight at that time?

0:44:41.7 Sarah: Yeah.

0:44:41.9 DB: Is that something you learned... Forgive me, I'm coming from maybe a place of ignorance here in making some assumptions. After your traumatic experiences, it would seem like, my naive response here, "Oh, good, you're not. You would... " Some people might feed that behavior and say, "Oh good, now I know I'm safe." What allowed you to say, "Oh, this is actually unhealthy?"

0:45:08.6 Sarah: So, my therapist and I worked a lot through that. 'Cause my therapist was very concerned that I started dating this guy, 'cause he said, "You know, I don't want that...

0:45:16.8 DB: Your now husband.

0:45:17.7 Sarah: Yes, my now husband. "I don't want you to feel like that you're getting into this relationship where he's saving you and you're working through some really traumatic things, and we don't want to get that tied up in your relationship."

0:45:29.1 DB: Good.

0:45:29.5 Sarah: So we worked very closely to... And I was very transparent with my therapist with this, now relation... My husband. And so I was talking to him about these concerns and he said, "Well, why don't you just ask him?" I was, at this point, and we had talked about how it's, an erection is a normal response to any sort of stimulus and not to fear it. So I didn't. I wasn't fearing it. And he said, "Any guy who's gonna respect your boundaries is gonna be able to say, 'My pants will calm down,' and I won't touch you." [chuckle] And I... Yeah, I just... I knew this guy was gonna be that way, there was just something about him that he... From the very beginning, he respected me. So, I have this discussion with him and I'm like, "Why are you not kissing me longer, and he's like, I don't wanna disrespect you, is disrespect for you." And I'm like, "Well, I would like to make out. [laughter] So, I'd like to kiss you a little bit longer." And we've been dating for months and let's see if this is going somewhere, and... So, long story short is, he had a lot of that narrative in his mind that he was so afraid of disrespecting women and girls that he had shut down everything.

0:46:40.8 DB: Like I was saying at the beginning.

0:46:41.8 Sarah: Totally. He is the opposite.

0:46:42.7 DB: That extreme. Yeah. I wanna point out, and I hope you don't feel like I'm putting you on a pedestal here, but it sounds like, and I realized, we're reflecting back on the past, the maturity that you gained to have that conversation is amazing.

0:47:00.8 Sarah: Thank you.

0:47:00.9 DB: It's... I don't want that to come out in a way that if others have been through a traumatic experience, can't do that, as any way shameful.

0:47:10.0 Sarah: Not at all.

0:47:10.1 DB: But I wanna emphasize how significant that is, that you didn't just run away or stay or not say anything at all. There's this culture of, "Don't talk about it at all." But you used it as an opportunity to connect with him. Which is a huge part of what I believe is healing, creating connection.

0:47:31.9 Sarah: Totally.

0:47:32.9 DB: Have an awareness of each other as opposed to assuming and labeling and ignoring or just not discussing. That is... I'm trying not to be extreme in my language, but that is truly impressive.

0:47:47.8 Sarah: Thank you.

0:47:48.7 DB: And I think it's important for the listeners to understand both how difficult that is and the fact that you were able to do it, was beautiful.

0:47:56.7 Sarah: Thank you. Well, and I do... It was so helpful to be falling in love, at the same point in therapy, weekly, [chuckle] and at the same point, having these really open discussions with the suitor. So, we'll fast forward to a couple of weeks and he's doing something playfully, like I think he picked me up and twirled me around and I had a traumatic response and I shoved him. And he stepped back and looked at me and was like, "I'm so sorry. I'm so sorry." And I was like, "Oh, no, no, no, no, no, you're fine. I just don't like... "

0:48:35.6 DB: You're still taking the responsibility.

0:48:36.9 Sarah: Yeah. I was like, "I just don't like being picked up." And later that night, I thought, "Okay, I've got to tell him what's going on. I don't want him to think that this is his fault, and, well, this needs to be... "

0:48:47.9 DB: Oh, that's right. 'Cause you hadn't shared with him yet. So this was your opportunity.

0:48:49.0 Sarah: Yeah. So, at this point he has no idea what's going on. And so I sat him down on the couch and I said, "Listen, this is what's happened, and I understand if you wanna walk away." And he was like, "Why would I walk [chuckle] away?" And he just sat and cried.

0:49:04.7 DB: What a different experience?

0:49:05.9 Sarah: So different. He sat and cried with me, he held me while I cried, and he... I don't know how he did this, but he managed his traumatic response in front of me. So, he cried, he... And I told him, "This is a lot for you to handle, I understand that, if you need to tell someone, if you need to tell your parents, if you need to tell a bishop, if you need to tell a friend, please tell someone so you're not holding this by yourself. I have my people who are holding it with me, please get your people." And he... That's when he had his traumatic response of like, "I'm gonna kill this guy, I'm gonna find him... " That's when he had his response to my trauma, but that I was... I didn't have to carry it. And I think that's why we are married. [chuckle] He was able to separate that. [laughter]

0:49:51.1 DB: Yes. And I'm gonna point that out. How crucial that is, again, not to put you on a pedestal, but your ability to create differentiation in the relationship early on and not feel like, while you're communicating and being open and creating connection, you also emphasized, "I'm carrying my load, I've got my people, and if this is concerning, the most effective way to deal is get your own people. Let's not blend our trauma together. Let's support each other, but let's not be each other's therapist."

0:50:22.7 Sarah: Oh yeah.

0:50:23.0 DB: There's a fine line there, of course, but... Very impressive.

0:50:28.5 Sarah: And his mom has been a therapist, and so I said, "Please talk to your mom about this." And I was trying to not be ashamed, and so I didn't want this to be a secret. So I didn't want... You know, [chuckle] to be like, "Oh, my girlfriend's gone through something, but I can't tell my parents about it." It was like, "If I'm a part of your family, this is a part of my life, like this, we're not gonna put it in the closet, it's just gonna be out there. It's what it is." And so our relationship progressed. He went to therapy by himself. He came to therapy with me a few times, and we fell in love, and we got married and I was like, "Okay, here we go, here comes sex. Real sex."

0:51:05.5 DB: Oh-oh.

0:51:06.1 Sarah: Good sex.

0:51:07.1 DB: So, it is good, everything's great, happy ever after, right?

0:51:11.4 Sarah: We would like to think, right? So, back to my Bishop, great insightful Bishop, where we are... We're getting ready to get married and he pulls us in his office and he says, "You guys, this is gonna be hard for Sarah. It's gonna be really hard for Sarah to go from these traumatic experiences to, Let's do it all in one night." And he says, "I'd like you to explore each other's bodies." And he said, Your only... He gave us limits and he said, "Your only limits are oral and penetrative sex."

0:51:45.5 DB: Your Bishop counselled you this?

[chuckle]

0:51:46.6 Sarah: My Bishop.

0:51:47.3 DB: I want his name and number.

[laughter]

0:51:49.3 Sarah: Alright.

0:51:50.4 DB: This is phenomenal. When you heard him say that, what was your response?

0:51:56.0 Sarah: Well, I was like, jaw dropped. Because my husband's bishop, at that time, he was like, "You can't touch each other at all. Satan's gonna be trying to destroy you as a family, and if you... "

0:52:08.4 DB: Oh, yeah. I hear that all the time.

0:52:09.7 Sarah: Yeah. [chuckle] "If you touch each other at all, you're gonna have sex, the passion is just so alive, no touching yourselves"

0:52:14.9 DB: You no longer have agency.

0:52:16.3 Sarah: Right. Like, we're children again. And then we had my bishop who was like, "Please get to know each other before you have sex." And we talked about it as a couple, and we decided, "Okay, what is appropriate for us? What do we feel like we can handle? What's our plan in case we start to feel overwhelmed? What happens if I have a traumatic response? And what are our boundaries?" And we talked about those things that people don't talk about in their marriage for years. And it just set us up on what I thought was the perfect happy ever after.

0:52:51.2 Sarah: So, we get married in the temple. We have a great sex life for a couple of months and then I can't get there. I can't climax. And I remember, [chuckle] it was Valentine's night, I had bought, on a meager student income, I had bought this red piece of lingerie and I was so excited. And I was anticipating it so much and looking forward to connecting so much, and then I was feeling the feeling, feeling the build-up and then, boom, exhaustion, can't get there. My husband gets up and puts his garments back on and I just remember thinking, "Oh my gosh, I'm so broken. I am so broken." And that was my spiral back down hill, that night. That's when everything changed from it being something that my husband and I participate in together where my pleasure matters as much as his pleasure, and we need to be clear that my bit does. My husband has never once pressured me, he's always been 100% understanding. We both just didn't have the tools. So, this is the spiral of...

0:54:06.0 DB: You not only didn't have the tools, 'cause that's my concern in general, is no one's taught how to have intimate relationships, sex and orgasm. Who teaches that? But you're up against also trauma.

0:54:20.1 Sarah: Yeah.

0:54:21.3 DB: And so you've got a few fronts here that you're battling, and this is happening at this moment. So, where do you go from there?

0:54:29.3 Sarah: So months progress and I'm just becoming increasingly more depressed and I'm feeling increasingly more isolated. I started seeing a different therapist, I had moved, so I had a different therapist. It was a sex therapist. And the sex therapist kept telling me it's this trauma that's in the way of you being able to connect with your husband, and I was sitting there saying, "It's not the trauma. I've worked through so much of the trauma. Of course, I have bad nights where something triggers me and I can identify the trigger and work through it, but it's not the trauma that's preventing me from this." So I tried a different sex therapists, and I tried an OB-GYN. And I tried a different OB-GYN. And the problem was, is I would feel the build-up and I would... We'd be in the moment and we'd be feeling really, really good, and then I would just hit this wall of exhaustion. And it felt like I was being knocked off my feet. And it was time and time and time again, and I just started feeling like, "I'm only here to be like this vessel for other men's pleasure. And it's not... My husband's not making me feel this way, this is how God designed my body to be a vessel for other men's pleasure, not my own, for other men's pleasure."

0:55:45.1 Sarah: And that was the beginning of just months, years of severe depression and anxiety, and it got so bad that I had suicidal ideation. Because my husband and I have always been able to be so transparent from the beginning, I was able to disclose to him, that I was having these ideations and he said, "Okay, you've gotta get help, like this is obviously not working." It terrified him enough that I could see on his face of like just the idea of that was so scary, I don't think I could ever go through with it, which kind of brought me back to reality. But... So, nothing's changing, I'm just super depressed. I'm seeing doctors who are saying, "We're just gonna prescribe you these anti-depressants, it will kill your libido. Here's some anti-anxiety, work on your trauma." So I start EMDR. And so, for those of the listeners, it's a great form of trauma therapy where you process it without really describing it, so you're not re-victimizing yourself, you're processing more of what your body is holding on to. So, I go through it and I'm like, That's not the trauma. It's not... There's something that's stopping me, physio... My physical body is stopping me.

0:57:01.0 Sarah: There's something in the way. I can feel it. So again, I'm just hopeless. No one's believing me. Every single person is telling me it's your trauma, which was at this point, more traumatic than my trauma.

0:57:13.5 DB: Interesting, yes. I was actually gonna point that out and... Well, I won't jump ahead here. I wanna reflect back on that but... So what was it? What did you end up discovering?

0:57:27.2 Sarah: So I... So we move out of state, and I'm talking to this woman in my new ward and something... She was a doula. So for those who aren't aware of what a doula is, they're basically a birthing partner. So they... She professionally goes in and helps women deliver their babies as their advocate, and I had... She had mentioned to me that what got her interested in it was she had had a traumatic response giving birth because she had been molested as a child, and that resurfaced for her during her birth. And I was like, "Holy crap. That might happen to me." And so I disclosed to her my history of sexual assault, and then I disclosed to her my problem of not being able to climax. And she didn't bat an eye. She said, "Oh, go visit a pelvic floor physical therapist." And she gave me a name. So I made this appointment and I go in, and at this point, I have kind of like this PTSD from visiting providers. 'Cause none of them believe me. Everyone is telling me... It ranges from, "It's your trauma," to, "Let go of how you view yourself. Your body image part... " And I'm like, "I've never once said that I don't like the way I look in sex."

[laughter]

0:58:36.5 Sarah: Everyone's pointing out these emotional things or these things that we've put on women that I'm like, "It's none of those. I'm not telling you like... Listen to me, please." So I walk in, and I sit down, and she started crying, this physical therapist, and she said, "You are the hardest client to get in my doors because everyone gives up on you."

0:59:01.7 DB: Mm-hmm. Yes. Gives up on you in the sense of they think it's something else?

0:59:09.4 Sarah: Yes.

0:59:09.6 DB: Yes.

0:59:09.9 Sarah: They think it's something else. And she said, "It is so common." She said the clients who have it the most are religious clients, which I think is ironic.

0:59:17.2 DB: That's well-studied, actually.

0:59:18.1 Sarah: Very religious people and athletes. And I was both. So she... I remember her saying, "You'll have an orgasm within a month." And I was going like, "Yeah, right."

0:59:27.8 DB: So let me pause you there before we get on to the healing, hopefully, is...

[laughter]

0:59:32.4 DB: That's what I was wanting to speak to, is in no way is this a criticism. I am so thankful for the research and the skills that trauma therapists and trauma training in general has brought to clinicians. However, what I'm seeing is an imbalance in assessment. A lot of clinicians are jumping to trauma, which isn't wrong, and trauma is still playing a part of your life.

1:00:04.3 Sarah: Totally.

1:00:07.5 DB: However, there's... Your body is made up of a bunch of more things than just trauma and just the things that you were bringing up. Everything needs to be explored, and I think that's a critical part of assessment. And I'm in a tricky spot as a male therapist who often will engage in thorough assessment. Like yes, fully recognize there's trauma. Is there potentially anything else biologically going on, emotionally going on that's disconnected from that? And that's often perceived as minimizing trauma, and it's a tricky place to be in because... Absolutely, there's trauma there, but I'm seeing a lot of what's happening, what happened to you, where your actual health concern wasn't related to the trauma, at least not the majority of it. And finally, somebody found out. You found the right person, rather, and they guided you. So do you mind sharing what the procedure was? I think I know where you're going with this.

1:01:04.1 Sarah: Yeah. So it was just pelvic floor physical therapy. So it was all internal work. So basically she inserted her fingers into my vagina and was able to release the tension. And what she said that was so profound was she said... And at this point, I have my MSW, and I'm like, "I'm a therapist. I'm gonna be a therapist. This is my passion." So I'm talking to her about all these terms, and she's like, "Yeah, don't you guys like read that book, The Body Keeps the Score, and don't you guys understand that you hold trauma in your body?" And I was like, "Yes. Actually, I do know that." And she's like, "Well, where do you think you hold it?" And I said, "Well, I don't know. Like my whole body?" She said, "In your pelvic floor." Mind blown, right? So what she did is in her assessment, she found that... And she likened it to bicep curls. She said, "Your vaginal walls have to go up and down like you would do a bicep for you to orgasm." And she said, "Yours are so tight that they can't loosen. They can't physically make that sensation happen. They can't have that... They won't.

1:02:15.0 Sarah: So we did some exercises and I had to relearn how to do certain things. I had to essentially learn how to orgasm, and that was the beginning of happiness. That was the beginning of the fairy tale, for me, it was. [chuckle] Learning, becoming one with my body, and when I say one with my body, for anyone who has a period, who has a uterus, who has a pelvic floor, that includes you man, understand what's going on with your pelvic floor. That is where you're holding your stress, where you're holding your trauma. And since then, I have been able to identify when I suck in, and I know I do it. When I am triggered or when I'm stressed, or if I'm uncomfortable or if I'm feeling vulnerable, I can suck in my muscles, and I feel it. It's like this, "Please don't look at me," and I'm sucking in. It's totally this trauma-fear response, and I can now push myself back out and to relax, and I have control of what's going on with me. And that's the first time that's ever happened. I was able to orgasm. We have a great sex life now. We've had... Since had a baby and that didn't break me. I thought that was gonna ruin me again. I wasn't afraid to have a child, and it helped bringing a child in. I used the same things that I learned in therapy, and I survived.

1:03:46.8 DB: What a story. Not a story. What a life.

1:03:51.8 Sarah: Yeah.

[laughter]

1:03:52.7 DB: My goodness, that journey. So was it... What the doctor did, did that get you to successful orgasm? Was there other things that you did to help yourself along?

1:04:03.3 Sarah: Yeah, so basically, what she would do is she would use her fingers on muscles and release them so much like you would lengthen a muscle or much like going to the gym, right? You learn how to turn your muscles on and off when you're lifting weights, and she helped me learn how to do that, then I had to learn how to breathe again. 'Cause I was breathing incorrectly, like who even knows that you can breathe incorrectly. But I was breathing in, sucking in, doing... Any time I worked out, sucking in, holding that pelvic floor in tight. I learned to masturbate. That was a big one, right, learning my body.

1:04:42.2 DB: What is the purpose of that? Just to... Was it to help heal? Or what was the purpose of masturbating?

1:04:47.9 Sarah: The purpose of that was to, A, figure out how my body worked, right? How... What feels good? Now that I know my body can react to pleasure, what feels good? We started over, basically. So... And that came from... And this is the part that blows my mind is how we expect our young people or any people to walk into a marriage not knowing their body. So I learned my body with that. I've helped my husband learn my body, so his confidence grew, my confidence grew, our intimacy was connected. For the first time, it felt like it was a partnered experience.

1:05:23.8 DB: This is important for a lot of Latter-day saints to understand. And I'm not gonna sit here and say that masturbation should be a part of everyone's life. However, when we as... Especially Latter-day saints who are clinicians make a blanket statement, which I've seen recently in social media and some pretty well-respected therapists who are LDS, say that any therapist who encourages masturbation is not in line with their faith, right? It's... Yeah, thanks for the eye roll.

[laughter]

1:06:07.1 DB: It's... The potential damage of that message is destructive to say the least. I've seen so many women who have been abused, who have had similar life experiences, and they carry that on with them because that message was communicated to them, and they feel understanding their body is breaking some eternal covenant.

1:06:40.7 Sarah: Oh. Totally.

1:06:42.8 DB: It's the only thing we see... In the medical industry that seems to be the exception within our faith, is you go to a doctor and get some drugs to help you or you do... And I hate to use that analogy because I don't even think they're the same in a sense of risks or anything like that. But masturbation is a form of learning your body.

1:07:04.4 Sarah: Right.

1:07:04.9 DB: Especially when you've been abused, where somebody has had control over your sexual narrative, not just story-wise, not from church history or your church upbringing, but somebody has abused you, you need a way to reclaim your sexual identity or to even claim it. And you never did. And masturbation... Well, a lot of people... I get to push back in, say, "Well, that's what you do in marriage. You're not... You don't understand."

[laughter]

1:07:34.8 DB: It's still involving somebody, yes. Yes, you can. Even though you trust your partner, there's a reality to being able to own your own body, and when you do that, you could bring your whole self to the table. But if you do it as a part, especially in something as intimate and vulnerable as this... I'm not gonna say it's impossible, but it's really, really difficult to have your... Own my sexual identity.

1:08:02.6 Sarah: Yes, totally.

1:08:03.8 DB: You will always carry some form of a identity from your partner in that, and that's not owning your own sexual identity.

1:08:13.1 Sarah: No, not at all.

1:08:13.2 DB: And as... I guess another side note, a lot of men misunderstanding... Women don't know this either is... Or probably just as much, men don't understand their body either. Just because they ejaculate doesn't mean they had an orgasm. And when I tell men that they're like, "What? What are you talking about?" You need to learn how to have an orgasm. It doesn't always come naturally, and I think men really mistake that also. Not to divert from your... I think that was an important concept that you brought up, that I think men also fail to understand.

1:08:46.3 Sarah: Yeah.

1:08:46.3 DB: It's important for us to learn our bodies just as much.

1:08:49.5 Sarah: Well, and this is kind of the one thing that will probably influence my parenting the most, [chuckle] when it comes to sexual health, is I didn't know what bad felt like because I didn't know what good felt like.

1:09:04.2 DB: Exactly.

1:09:05.0 Sarah: Right? So all of these horrible things are happening to me, and I'm like, "Ugh, this is what good is? Well, good sucks." And I would talk to women, and they would say like, "Oh, you'll just know when you'll know." And it's like... I'm like, "Please give me some concrete understanding of how my body works." When I could have discovered that at an appropriate age as a teenager and learned myself, how to know my body, when my body needs help, when I need help, when something's wrong and not working correctly, I could have learned that and taken all of that lesson into marriage. And instead what happened was I did... I had years of sexual assault. I had years of feeling so isolated and feeling so alone and forgotten by a Heavenly Father, because at the same time, I'm like, "Where the heck is Heavenly Mother if I can't... Who is gonna tell me how my female body works?" And so I have this huge faith transition and this huge faith crisis, and it's like, "I could have learned this lesson. All of this could have been avoided if someone could have given me the tools and the vocabulary to know." And that's why I'm super passionate about 'cause...

1:10:32.0 DB: I love it. I love it.

[laughter]

1:10:32.1 Sarah: 'Cause it doesn't need to be this way.

1:10:33.0 DB: I'm so happy that things are healing for you, and not just healing, it sounds like you're really thriving, and you're using this as an opportunity to share your passion, your education. I do wanna revisit it if you have time.

1:10:49.7 Sarah: Sure.

1:10:50.2 DB: What is your view on... So you made a comment at the beginning about the pornography and how your views have changed. I'd be curious to explore that. So how do you view... So... I don't wanna move on too quickly or confuse topics, but let me quickly summarize. Because of the lack of education and the modesty teachings, you took on this responsibility that you are responsible for men, period, regardless of age. What a burden. What a scary thing. And as you started to heal, you discovered that you get to have a body, you get to have your own sexual desires, you get to heal, and I thought it was interesting that you also experienced a faith crisis, which I do see. And this is so unnecessary in the sense that if we just teach good sex ed or answer the questions and not be afraid of... Because we're answering questions, that's why I set up my group as, ask all the questions you want.

1:11:52.9 Sarah: Yeah.

1:11:53.3 DB: I don't care how crazy you feel like they are or taboo, we have to discuss these things. It doesn't necessarily give you permission to do it. I don't know why we think about it that way. But I've seen others where in their 40s or 50s, they realize, "Oh, my goodness, if I can't believe my church leaders on this," then they experience, "We don't have to have that experience."

1:12:17.1 Sarah: We don't have to.

1:12:17.1 DB: I mean, this isn't like church history, or Blacks and the priesthood, or... Sorry, I don't wanna equate those, but the point is, is we have that understanding now, we have good medical research and science. And a leeway now or a segue into what do you understand now about porn, and how it did or didn't contribute or affect the narrative that you were taught?

1:12:43.2 Sarah: So now my opinion is I don't necessarily want the church to talk about sex, period. Like I just want them to say, "Have sex."

1:12:51.8 DB: Porn, sex, anything.

1:12:53.0 Sarah: Yes, because there's just... It doesn't... They don't belong in the bedroom. And why I say that is because it's so personal and what works for one person is not gonna work for another person. And first of all, until they can come with me with the clinical understanding that professionals have of hundreds of hours of education, the narrative is not gonna change. And with that... So... And part of this came through my own clinical education was understanding that porn is not currently a classifiable addiction. And understanding what makes an addiction an addiction and what makes pornography not an addiction helped me understand my behavior is my behavior and their behavior is their behavior.

1:13:48.0 DB: I couldn't have said it better. That's exactly right.

1:13:51.2 Sarah: And my sexuality is my sexuality and my husband's sexuality is his. At the beginning of our marriage, we felt so responsible for each other. And through this process of learning, "Okay, I have my own body that has its own needs, and I'm a higher desiring partner, you have your body that has needs, and you're the lower desiring partner, how do we make this marriage work? Came through accepting, "Okay, we've got to find tools to add to our tool belt for when we have differences in expectation, when we have differences in needs," and part of that's come through accepting not all porn is bad. And people always...

1:14:32.1 DB: So let's...

1:14:34.0 Sarah: Porn is such a hot topic. It's such a buzzword right now.

1:14:35.8 DB: Just for the sake of the listener, 'cause I know already they're...

1:14:39.0 Sarah: People are freaking out.

1:14:39.4 DB: Freaking out right now. And you clarify... Just based on what little we've talked about, I'm gonna clarify then you correct me or you add to is one of the biggest problems is... I've talked with thousands of people now, and I'm yet to hear the same definition of porn from two people.

1:15:02.0 Sarah: Totally.

1:15:04.2 DB: I have... I'm saying this not out of criticism. Everybody has the choice to do what they feel is best, but this is where it gets problematic when I'm working with a couple who wants a divorce over finding out that one had watched an R-rated movie because it had some...

1:15:19.7 Sarah: Right.

[laughter]

1:15:19.7 DB: And for those who...

1:15:22.6 Sarah: It's serious, I think.

1:15:22.7 DB: Treat that very serious... I'm not minimizing you, but this is the core of the problem. And so when I hear you say that not all porn is bad... That's what I think I'm hearing from you. Is that what you're saying?

1:15:34.0 Sarah: Yes and... Okay, so let's take it back even to that abusive relationship where I said that he was... He disclosed that he was watching porn. At the time he was like, "Oh I'm a porn addict. I've been a porn addict since I was 14." He was looking at porn twice a week. And it was straight porn. Man, woman, missionary porn. And now to think that he was carrying around that burden of thinking he was a porn addict, I'm like, "No wonder you didn't listen to me say 'No'. You had already lost."

1:16:06.8 DB: He was carrying that weight.

1:16:06.9 Sarah: You had already felt like you were out of control of your behavior. You had already said you were an addict, which... You don't have responsibility for your behavior. In that sense, I just feel compassion for him. And I feel compassion for anyone who's carrying around that.

1:16:20.9 DB: So many people are probably thinking right now, "You are justifying and you are sympathizing with your abuser." And I'm not hearing that at all. What I'm hearing from you is a solution. If we want to solve this abuse problem, this is not minimizing his porn use. It's... Or porn in any degree. It's what works. Think about any person. I can't imagine... Like that 14-year-old that I was talking about at the beginning, or what you... I can't imagine what you experienced thinking you were responsible for all men's desires and how you carry that and how that makes you now respond. Again, I'm not excusing people's bad behavior, but if we want a solution, we gotta actually talk about the problem and how to fix it. And that's, "Stop putting fear people."

1:17:17.6 Sarah: Into everything. Into sex. Leave it out. And I'm... To clarify, I'm not pro-porn either. There's horrific things that happen in that industry, but what I'm seeing is, "Can it have a spot in individual relationships?" And this is a vulnerable thing for me thing for me to say, but when I was learning my own body I was watching porn. Because A, it was a safe place for me to engage in sexual activity in what felt like partnered sex, which was allowing me to feel like I could let my husband in and to learn a little bit from it. I was learning... "Okay, okay. They're turning things up. I'm gonna try turning things up." And it helped. And...

1:18:06.0 DB: The mechanics.

1:18:07.8 Sarah: Yes.

1:18:08.2 DB: It... Well... No, no. It goes beyond mechanics. It goes into just every aspect of sex. Where do you learn that from? You don't learn that from a... You learn maybe basic mechanics from a textbook or from maybe a good sex therapist book or something like that. But a lot of people learn through visual learning.

1:18:28.2 Sarah: Right, and that's how... I'm a visual learner. And this is the difference between me watching porn and a 14-year-old watching porn. I'm a grownup. I know that it's staged. I know that there's stop and go, that there's clips, that there's enhancement drugs. I know that it's entertainment and not reality. A 14-year-old doesn't necessarily know that. I've had experience of going, "Oh yeah, it's awkward. And you queef and you laugh. And there's all these embarrassing things that happen and you still love each other. And you go back and try again." That doesn't happen when we're young and impulsive and adolescent and we're trying to figure things out. It's adult entertainment for a reason. So my views on porn have changed a little bit. Again, I'm not pro-porn. But what I am pro is allowing...

1:19:18.6 DB: Education.

1:19:20.2 Sarah: My partner to have his own sexuality.

1:19:21.2 DB: Oh. Sorry. Yes, yes, yes.

1:19:22.9 Sarah: And education, and that comes with... A good experience of this was right after we had our baby, I was three weeks postpartum going, "What is wrong with me. I need to have an orgasm, and I'm not supposed to need this right now, I'm not supposed to want this." Right? I just had a baby, I'm supposed to be so anti-sex and so anti-touch. What's wrong with me? Again, why am I craving this?" And Googling like, "Is it okay to masturbate right after you've had a baby." In the internet, of course, because who am I gonna ask? I just still feel like I don't know who to ask. Should probably asked the sex therapist but... And being like, "No, I'm normal. This is normal." But then at the same time, not necessarily wanting to engage in partnered sex and allowing my husband to have his needs and not feeling responsible for it. It doesn't mean he doesn't love me. It doesn't mean I don't turn him on anymore. It just means, "Listen, Babe, I'm not in the mood. I can't get there. I want you to still have your needs taken care of. Maybe we can do something together, watch something together, you feel you. I sit here and nurse this child. And you do you Babe." [laughter] That is what I'm talking about. Let's allow people to figure it out for themselves instead of putting fear and shame, and, "If you look at porn, you don't love your partner." Let's leave that out of the equation. That's not a part of it at all.

1:20:56.2 DB: We can... My goodness, you are saying things that I've been trying to communicate for a long time, and this concept of... We don't have control over our partners' bodies or their desires, nor should we.

1:21:13.4 Sarah: Never.

1:21:15.3 DB: It would be wrong. Absolutely wrong, and I know people are gonna say, "Well, is not the same." "You can only eat dinner when I'm eating dinner. We could only work out when we're working out together." In any other situation, we would see that as abuse or controlling or manipulative. But when we... And again, for... My wife and I love to work out together, and I actually hate working out when I'm not working out with her. That's a little different. 'Cause it's something we really love to do together. But if I go work out, she's not gonna say, "Why are you doing that?"

1:21:51.0 Sarah: Yeah, "You're cheating on me."

[laughter]

1:21:51.9 DB: "You're cheating on me." I know a lot of people are gonna, "No, they're not the same." Well, they kind of are in the sense of, you're still an individual. And you still have desires, needs, and I love this... The example you gave, you just gave birth. And... Or he may have his desires and you are not ready to be there yet.

1:22:13.6 Sarah: Yeah, I couldn't show up without resent. And I don't want resent in my marriage. I don't want that in my sex. I don't want it in my behavior, and if he can have his own sexuality and I can have mine, there's no place for resentment. There's no need. So it's... What it has done is that I have stopped crying myself to sleep when I feel like my needs haven't been taken care of or I can't fulfill his. He has stopped feeling like he's not the macho man who isn't providing for me and blah, blah, blah, that silly narrative. He's in school right now, as well as working. So he... A lot of times I'm like, "Babe, let's get it going." And he's like, "I haven't stopped thinking in 16 hours."

1:22:56.0 DB: Exactly.

1:22:57.5 Sarah: Am I supposed to just be like, "Ugh. Fine, you never take care of me." Absolutely not. I take care of myself. It's not his responsibility. And at the same time, when he wants to show up for me, he might need a little help. And maybe he's gonna... He might look at something or he might listen to something, or he might watch something to help him get it started and then come and join me.

1:23:22.3 DB: So you just answered my next question is, there's gonna be a lot of people who say, "Well, then if he can do that, if you can do that, then why do you need each other?" And that is the prime... I don't know if it's the prime, but that is one of the biggest indicators of how poorly educated we are on sex and desire, and every single person, and I'm very careful with saying absolutes, but every single person I've talked to and worked with, who has that view, that differentiation, which is becoming a hot word now, "Is not appropriate or not." My rule of success is if it draws you closer to your wife, your husband, your spouse, and to the Lord, something's working. And so when I hear you say this, that's the education we need. Is not the shame, not the guilt, not the jealousy, like, "What are you doing? You're cheating on me." No. "You're doing what you need. So you could be with me."

1:24:23.7 Sarah: Right.

1:24:24.9 DB: And so I hate to have said all that just to say or ask, so have you noticed this improve your relationship?

1:24:32.2 Sarah: Oh, 100%. And what it's done is, it's taken away that expectation of... I don't know if I'm saying this right, but there's the expectation of unmet needs. And what I mean by that is like, if I shave my legs and we don't have sex, I'm pissed. I'm like, "Why did I shave my legs? [laughter] I took care of myself for what?" It's just taken away all of that. The transactions. Yes, it's not like, "I put forth this, I did the dishes. Now it's your respon... " There is none of that.

1:25:04.6 DB: You do it because you love and desire your partner.

1:25:07.6 Sarah: Yes. Yes. And again, it's not like we watch porn all the time. And it's not like it's even frequent. But what it does allow... And for those people who may be wondering "What is the boundary with that then?" And this is the boundary, if it... We have to disclose to each other, if it's gotten in the way of us having partnered sex.

1:25:28.5 DB: I love it. That's the rule of the relationship.

1:25:31.7 Sarah: Right. So if he has watched it and masturbated and I come in and I'm like, "Hey, Baby. Let's get things going." He has to let me know why. And you know this... That hasn't happened yet. He himself is not necessarily interested in porn use himself, but he's allowed me to have that if I need it. And I've allowed him to if he wants to explore it. And I don't even need to know what it is, right? 'Cause there's part of his sexuality, I don't own it, I don't need to know every aspect of it. Just the same way, I'm pretty sure there's things I don't want him to know about it. Like, "There's probably some fantasies I have that I don't necessarily want you to know about." And that's okay.

1:26:11.1 DB: Yes.

1:26:14.1 Sarah: So that's... That is what I think this conversation can look like, instead of so much fear and shame. It's, "Let's figure out how to make it work if we need it, if we want it. If we don't, great. Leave it out." Just like anything else.

1:26:27.9 DB: What a journey. This is... I'm sure the listeners are having a range of experiences and emotions.

[chuckle]

1:26:34.5 Sarah: I know they're probably like... Whiplash.

1:26:36.7 DB: We're going from the trauma to the healing... Not just the healing, like I've said, but the thriving and the tools that you're using, for the most part, at least within our culture, completely unconventional.

1:26:48.9 Sarah: Yeah.

1:26:49.5 DB: But these are not the stories we're hearing, but they're successful. I know, I'm gonna... I feel like I have to say it over and over again like you did. I'm not pro-porn, I'm pro-healing, and there's resources. And if we wanna provide Latter Day Saints with... I was just having this conversation with somebody a week or two ago about, "Do you feel like we as a church... " Well, not as... The church providing it, but Latter Day Saints should have a sex ed, nude course. He says, "Well... "

[laughter]

1:27:23.5 Sarah: That would be great.

1:27:26.2 DB: It's just, I don't think we have to do it all. But I do think there are effective and meaningful resources out there. But it's a valid question. If we're gonna improve our marital intimacy, and I'm not just talking sex, but everything about it. We have got to provide better 'how to'. And when we go through it, it's one of my biggest... Pet peeves with the manuals is, we always say... This whole theme has been today is what not to do, but then when we talk about what to do, love. Love you partner. What does that mean? I'm not mocking that, but I've been married to my absolutely amazing partner for over a decade now, and we're still learning what love means. And it's not at all... We had the seeds of it at the beginning.

1:28:16.6 Sarah: It's different. It's totally different.

1:28:19.4 DB: And it's things were not taught. We're not taught. And I agree with you, I don't think the church should be teaching us this stuff. But I think we could do an absolutely better job at teaching basic communication, basic consent, basic boundaries. And what does love really look like.

1:28:34.6 Sarah: And not shaming our normal physiological needs and behavior, right?

1:28:40.3 DB: Bingo.

1:28:41.2 Sarah: And not... I had this kind of mentality of, "Sex is for reproduction." And then like, "You might enjoy it a little bit."

1:28:48.6 DB: Yeah.

1:28:49.9 Sarah: Right? But it wasn't like, "Sex is supposed to be fulfilling. And I... Until I couldn't connect with my partner completely sexually, I didn't understand how much of me was missing in sex." And here's the bottom line. I want to say this with compassion for anyone who may feel different and for any survivors out there. But being abused didn't make me wanna kill myself. Not being able to be present with my partner in a loving, consensual, religiously sound bound marriage made me want to. And that is the difference.

1:29:24.1 DB: I'm glad you brought that up. That's hard to hear. I think a lot of people are gonna struggle with that. I don't wanna dilute what you just said. I think we've had a great discussion here, and I would love to have you back. And I think just to wrap up what you just said is, I think we prescribe the wrong... The issues we're having to the wrong problems. And I think it's important for us to be aware of that. I thank you for your journey. It's a vulnerable one. You're brave. And I appreciate you being completely open about it.

1:30:00.9 Sarah: Thank you.

1:30:01.0 DB: I felt like you have been and I think this will benefit a lot of people out there.

1:30:06.0 Sarah: Well, I hope so, because again, as I said, this was... My promise to myself is... And it's funny, 'cause it's not like this is an experience where I get up on the Sunday and I'm like, "I'd like to bring my testimony about all of this," it feels like it's a socially unacceptable trial, and so when I have the opportunity to share it with people who I know are seeking it. Oh, I'm present, I'm all in. 'cause no one needs to go through that alone. No one needs to go through a period. But if heaven forbid, people are going through it, I'm here with you.

1:30:43.4 DB: Thank you, Sarah.

1:30:44.5 Sarah: Thank you.

My name is Sarah Chapman. I’ve been married for almost 20 years to my husband, Trent, together we have 5 children and live in Lehi, Utah.

I am an author of two books, “MindStrength for Women” and “Underneath it all.....You’re Naked” Both of these books were written after a very hard period of time in life. One was about my physical journey to coming back to myself and the other is my sexuality journey of overcoming my judgment about sex to becoming more curious.

I went about teaching women about sexual health for 2 years and mainly surrounding the female sexual response cycle. I taught women that you can’t find freedom in your understanding of your sexuality until you have overcome the deep rooted beliefs about sex. I found my own freedom from it that is why I wrote a book about it.

Now my focus is on creating a community of women where we come together weekly to share the physical, mental and sexual aspects of our lives and have meaningful discussions with a workbook followed by an exercise class. Because movement creates emotion.

You can find me:

Instagram : @mindstrength.for.women

MindStrength for Women Facebook Group

Email: [email protected]

Full Transcript: 

00:00 Narrator: Welcome to Improving Intimacy, a podcast to help single and married, Latter-Day Saints strengthen their family connections and marriages. Daniel A. Burgess is the host of Improving Intimacy, Daniel is a Marriage and Family Therapist, father, husband, and author. Here's Daniel on this episode of Improving Intimacy.

[music]

00:28 Daniel: Welcome to another episode of Improving Intimacy. On today’s episode we have Sarah Chapman, who is an author; and we’re excited to review her book with her today and kinda learn her journey to getting to this book. Sarah, welcome to the show.

00:44 Sarah: Thank you for having me, Daniel. I appreciate this, it’s really exciting.

00:48 Daniel: I’m very excited. As someone who’s writing a book, I also 1) kinda selfishly learn your journey, (mine’s been a very difficult one). And, so I may get a little selfish in my inquiries here--but more importantly, I’m curious to hear more about you. Who are you as a wife, as a person, as a mother? Tell us a little about yourself and what got you to this point.

01:12 Sarah: Sure, love to. So, I (we), Trent and I, my husband and I, will be going on 19 years of marriage this September. I have 5 children, I currently live in Utah. We lived in California for a time, actually, in San Diego area actually. Miss that place, for sure. But, yeah, I first basically grew up in an LDS home and I grew up in a family with 8 children, and I’m 6th of the 8. [...] In our home we didn’t talk about anything remotely close to our bodies. We were very surface type of family. We didn’t really talk about hard things. I wouldn’t say that we were an authentic family. But, at the same time, I did feel loved by my parents and I felt that they were providing me with a really great education, secularly as well as spiritually. And so, I didn’t feel like I was necessarily neglected in the way I was thinking. 

02:29 Sarah: However, growing up as a teenager in the 90s, I’d run around with some friends who were sexually active and seeing the naive young teenager that I was, I kinda looked at them and viewed them as people who were naughty girls, right? And so, I remember church lessons here and there. It wasn’t very often, but I do remember those specific metaphors that were shared. I actually did get the “chewed up piece of gum” kind of analogy, which maybe a lot of your audience here might have gotten.

03:10 Daniel: Oh…(sarcastically) excellent. Yeah.

03:13 Sarah: You know? And then I also just really created a lot of...I would just look at the word sex and just immediately think that it was just this dirty thing. However, there was also this other part of me that was being told that it was this sacred thing, and you don’t talk about it, right? And so I was just kinda like this....back and forth in my head about like, “what is this?” Sure, I had boyfriends in high school and I do remember getting close a couple times where I feel like my body was in a state of arousal. Obviously I didn’t know what it was, because I didn’t know my body then. But looking back, I’m like, “Oh, that’s what that tingling sensation was when I was getting close to that boy, oh! Okay, right.” 

04:06 Sarah: I can say that now, but at the time, as a teenager, I didn’t at all. And I never (like when I would shower and stuff), like I would just hurry and shower really quick and then get out. I never wanted to self-pleasure or anything, at all. I didn’t even know my body. And so, come the time of marriage, the night before I’m to be married, my mom thinks it’s a great time to talk about sex. She pulls me aside and she basically asked me, “You’re gonna have sex tomorrow night, right?” and I was like, “well, I guess…”. I mean, I kinda remember my teenage years back in high school telling me that a penis goes inside a vagina, but then I was like...I plugged my ears like “I don’t wanna hear this, I don’t wanna hear this!” I just kinda ignored what they were gonna tell me. I knew just that fact: that a penis goes into a vagina and that was it. My mom was like, “Well, here’s a book. Go ahead and read this book.” And it was the book from...is it called, Between Husband and Wife by Lamb? Dr. Lamb?

05:14 Daniel: Oh yeah, oh yeah.

06:42 Daniel: You mean, the issues were always about sex?

07:09 Daniel: So let me pause you right there. What you just stated was big! It was huge. So, you viewed yourself as a tool for him to get satisfied, is that what you’re saying?

07:24 Daniel: And that was because of…

07:25 Sarah: You know, because I never...I never wanted to receive that pleasure for myself. Because I once again thought it was like...I thought I was a bad girl if I did that, right? So, even when I did have an orgasm, I’d immediately feel guilty every single time afterwards because of this shame that I’d created in my head about me having pleasure. So then, I viewed him as, “oh, he’s just using my body, and sex is for him, and orgasm is something that he just needs all the time.”

08:18 Sarah: Thank you

08:19 Daniel: And your subtitle is “shedding light on misconceptions about sex from a Christian wife to Christian women.” But what you said right there was, you couldn’t allow yourself to experience pleasure. If you’re okay with that, let’s explore that a little bit more. You’re not the first to say this on my podcast and I hear it a lot from clients. What did it mean to you to experience pleasure? You’re married now, you knew clearly beforehand that (or, atleast, your value system says that) before marriage, I’m not gonna experience this. You’re saying: you jump in the shower, you get out as fast as you can because you didn’t want to self-stimulate or do anything wrong.

08:56 Sarah: Yep

08:57 Daniel: So now you’re married. What was the barrier for you in allowing yourself to experience that joy?

09:08 Sarah: Well, I think you’re basically asking what kinda shifted that focus for me?

09:28 Sarah: Yeah.

09:29 Daniel: But, what prevented you, I guess...maybe, is it a shift? I guess that’s the question I’m asking you is, is it a shift? Or, it seemed more like though, you carried this perspective: “I’m not allowed to have sexual pleasure even in marriage.” Which seems incongruent with the thoughts and beliefs you had before marriage. What was the barrier to...I mean, you saw your husband having pleasure, did that peak your interest and say, “How can I have that pleasure?” or was it this continued, “I can’t have this. It’s too shameful, it’s too hurtful.”

11:10 Daniel: So, I’m really curious. What took you from that experience to what you say on page 56? It’s this idea of being able to embrace very differently. Practice patience, self-compassion, and have a sense of humor about it. That seems like a complete 180 shift. 

11:29 Sarah: Yeah.

11:41 Sarah: Well, not an overnight thing. I’ll just say that right now. [laughs] It definitely was, you know, I had this moment--this wake-up call. Sixteen years in, I was fed up. Basically telling myself over and over and over, “Sarah why can’t you figure this out? Why is this so hard for you? Why can’t you just get over this? Why do you look at sex in this perspective?” Just this why, why why. I finally had this moment of surrender. I didn’t talk to anybody, Daniel. I suffered in silence for years. I didn’t talk to my sisters, definitely not my mom, right? Not even my girlfriends, nobody.

12:34 Sarah: Exactly, exactly. And of course, then Trent would ask, my husband would ask me, “what is it you want?” And I’m like, “well, I don’t know what i want.” I’ve never allowed myself to have conversations and talk about it. He would just ask me question after question to open my mind and see the possibility and then I’d shut him down all the time, right? It was just this constant battle. So finally, it was just this one day, I called Suzanne, right? I refer to her in my book a lot. She was this woman who I met randomly in Guatemala of all places. I just look back and I’m like, it was by divine design that I would meet her that summer of 2017 so that she could open my eyes.

13:20 Daniel: I actually love what you said about Suzanne, is that she started her journey because of romance novels. I like that.

13:29 Sarah: Yeah. I’m not a big romance novel kind of girl but you know, some people are. Anyway we got to talking. We literally...our airbnbs were literally across from each other. I didn’t know Spanish, she didn’t know Spanish, it was a Sunday afternoon, we had nothing else to do--so we got to know each other. And we literally...like, she just opened up to me. We talked about our sex lives, and this ws the very first time I was like, this is a really fun conversation! It was the first time I actually looked at it with clear eyes to see the potential in me and the hope. Because she had already kinda gone through her own little journey, because she was basically me. She gave me hope to look at it with a different set of eyes. I went from a place of--this is where I talk a lot about, in my book--this view of going from a judgement place to being more curious. She allowed me, she gave me permission. It’s interesting how as women, we need permission, you know?

14:52 Sarah: Yeah.

14:53 Daniel: What prevented you from putting up another barrier? “Nope, I’m not talking about that, that’s betraying my husband, that’s betraying myself…”

14:57 Sarah: That’s true.

14:58 Daniel: What was it about her that allowed you to open up? 

15:03 Sarah: Good question.

15:04 Daniel: I think that’s the biggest thing with women is finding that opportunity and how, because they get into this same place where “I can’t talk about this and I won’t talk about it and I don’t care how familiar I am with you”--so what was it about her>

15:15 Sarah: Yeah. Well, one of the things that I had been studying and learning about...I love Brené Brown, and at that point in my life I’d really been learning vulnerability and authenticity. When she just started talking to me and exposing herself to me, I was .... she gave me permission to therefore share my things, right? There’s power when you can start a conversation and be like, “I’m messed up.” You know? “Here’s all these parts of me that I don’t understand, can you help me kinda walk through this?” 

15:53 Sarah: And that’s what she was for me, you know? And I think that’s what really created that safe place for me. She was like my safe place, because we could relate on so many levels, right? And I think when there’s vulnerability and authenticity in any friendship or relationship, there’s definitely power behind that--to be able to know, “hey, I’m not alone. We can do this together.” And I feel like that’s kinda what I’ve been doing now...you know, here’s my mess and I’m creating it into a message and helping other women to understand “you’re not alone. You’re not broken. There’s hope for you.” And I think that’s what's beautiful about this. And that’s what made that shift for me, is to allow myself to just open up, receive the information from this trusted (well, quick-trusted friend, right? I’d just met her) and just share all of me with her. It was quite an experience, that was for sure.

17:00 Daniel: So it sounds like Brené Brown gave you that courage, 

17:04 Sarah: Yeah, exactly.

17:04 Daniel: that platform, or, not platform, kinda that foundation that it’s okay to be vulnerable here. But what I think is important for the audience to be aware of is, you’re still really new in your journey. This was very recently. So, you went to, on that trip back in, if I remember right, 2017?

17:31 Sarah: Yeah.

17:52 Sarah: Emotionally, I mean, you know what? I started it...I just consumed as much information as I could. I finally got to this place where I could..

18:06 Daniel: Do you feel like you’re a lot more confident? Or do you feel like you still have a lot of insecurities or vulnerabilities around it? Where do you feel like you’re at?

19:22 Daniel: So you gave yourself permission to get here so that you can help your husband understand your body because in the past, you know, he’s asking what you want, and as you said, you’re there as a dead fish. Just, finish it out.

20:18 Sarah: Masturbation being one of them for me. That was a huge, like...I didn’t want to enter that specific subject until I felt comfortable in my body first, and learning the anatomy of my body first, before I could venture into that. So I feel like it’s a series of stepping stones. You kinda have to evolve into and work into. As I started reading all these books, that’s kind of what happened after I met with Suzanne, she gave me a couple books to read--and from there, I just took off. I was like, thirsting for knowledge for the first time in sex. Once I’d read one book, I went to the next book, and then I went to the next book. Just reading so much content that I could get my hands on. It was this, like, basically cry for help and just learning on my couch from all different kinds of therapists and sex experts and human sexuality professors and so many things, and I just was like, “oh my gosh! I’m finally in a place where I can receive this!” And yes, there’s gonna be content out there, once again, that we just kinda have to like, pick and choose, I don’t know, what resonates with you?

21:43 Sarah: Sure.

21:44 Daniel: But before I do, I really appreciate you addressing, briefly, in your book, about masturbation. You give a context for it, the history behind it, the fears around it.

22:05 Sarah: Yeah. 

22:06 Daniel: What was it like for you? Did you find that it was more valuable to do it alone so that you could do it without pressure? Or was it important for you to explore that with your spouse?

22:56 Daniel: Absolutely.

22:57 Sarah: But then, the shame just creeps in. And I remember this one specific time, I was like, “okay, Sarah.” I was seriously coaching myself! “Okay, Sarah, we can do this. We can do this!” You know?

23:14 Daniel: ...to get into the headspace.

23:15 Sarah: Like, I’ll go and I’ll coach myself and like, I’ll breathe and everything. A really great book, Slow Sex, was really powerful for me, by the way.

23:25 Sarah: Just the breathing, and… yeah.

23:26 Daniel: I think a lot of...so, we’re speaking to an LDS audience or a Christian-based audience. Sometimes, that book isn’t received very well. She talks about a lot of--

23:37 Sarah: Yeah

23:38 Daniel: So, the audience--it’s an excellent book. Excellent book. It does venture into some concepts and ideas that I think are extremely helpful, but be aware, it is not a warning, but just be aware--you're not going out and getting, you know, an LDS book about how to understand your own sexuality. It’s a very raw and in-depth book. Excellent.

24:00 Sarah: Yeah.

24:27 Sarah: Sure.

24:28 Daniel: How did you, for example, Emily Nagoski, that’s not an LDS author. How did you determine which books were good for you? Whether it’s Jennifer Finlayson-Fife, or Natasha [breaks off]

24:39 Sarah: Uh huh.

24:40 Daniel: What was your internal compass to decide, “this is helpful, this is good in my pursuit of my own sexuality, but being within the framework of my faith?”

25:15 Sarah: ...from some of the things, right? so then there’s also...I did go and actually look them up, not just about their book but just them as a person. I did some research on who they are and like, what are they teaching, what are they, like, out there, like, what’s their message, kind of thing. And so then I felt more comfortable to kinda open up and seek. And of course, I’d go to my city library, right? And go to the sexuality section and I’d just camp out and just kinda peruse books that way. That’s also helpful ‘cause it’s free. It’s not like I’m going to buy a book. But, there’s so many [pauses] there’s amazing people out there doing amazing things, and I just…

26:09 Daniel: So I guess, let me push a little on this, is--for example, with Slow Sex, what kept you from reading that and saying, “whoa. This is way outside of my value system.”

26:18 Daniel: “I shouldn’t be reading this.” And we’re talking about, just three years ago, you’re Sarah who’s just now recognizing all the rigidity around your sexual understanding and lack of understanding with your sexuality.

26:31 Sarah: Yeah.

26:32 Daniel: What kept you from throwing that book aside and saying, “this is horrible”?

26:39 Sarah: Well, I know this sounds really simple, but what I kept coming back to all the time, Daniel, was “Sarah, quit judging it. Be more curious.”

26:54 Sarah: You know, that’s it. That’s all...and that’s what I had to tell myself all the time. “Sarah, you’re looking at oral sex and you’re judging it. How can I be more curious about how it can apply to me and my relationship in my intimate relationship with my husband?” Like, what does that look like, you know? And so [laughs] it really is simple. But it is so profound to me, and it’s carried me the last three years. And that’s why I really hone-in on it in my book. Waking up women to understand, “quit judging it so much,”

27:34 Daniel: Absolutely love it.

27:34 Sarah: “and look at it from a place of curiosity.”

27:35 Daniel: And I think you see that journey as you go through this, like, starting in...what chapter is this? Page 100 or so. You start talking about loving yourself from the inside out. And you do a full inventory: “what do I lack? What am I insecure about?” (I’m putting some of my own words to this, but…) you take the individual through this process and I think that’s key. absolutely key. So, yes, the answer is simple, but boy, the process can be painful. That’s something that I actually warn my clients when I do this similar type of self-inventory. I have them often review themselves: where did they start--I like the word you used, stop judging it, and just learn from it. And I have people start to do this, is “stop judging your body, in fact, look at yourself. You think you have a fat tummy, who told you that? Who defined that for you?”

28:28 Sarah: Exactly.

28:29 Daniel: “Who took away your agency to keep you from actually looking at yourself in the way you should? Who defined it?” And they’ll go through this emotional process, “oh my goodness, that first boy I dated, he made fun of me or he poked me in the tummy and ever since then, I’ve been insecure. I’m not gonna let that dude take away from my agency. I’m gonna choose how to view my body.” And you kinda do a similar thing here.

28:53 Sarah: Yeah.

28:55 Sarah: Yeah, so, this is actually my second book. [laughs] I wrote a book 5 years ago called, MindStrength for Women. And it was all about just loving ourselves and overcoming this idea that we’re not enough and we're not good enough, not smart enough, and all these things, right? Of course I, at that time, I did like, I’d learned a lot about myself. And so the crazy part to all that whole story was, I felt amazing and went through a physical change, emotional change, and all these other things, but I kept sex hidden up in the corner, you know? Like in this closet, you know? So when I actually brought sex in, into the light, right? Now I felt like I’d become this whole person, and then like, a wholly unique being. 

29:54 Sarah: And I talk about this term called “sexy confidence” in my book, and how as women, it’s not so much about our body or anything of that nature. It’s about, how do we walk into a room, and how do we make people feel? What kind of energy are we bringing into the room? Is this a loving environment? And this is where I kinda had to do this with my husband, too. Because, when you’re in the bedroom, as women, we start to...like, if we even put on a piece of lingerie or something, we start to immediately judge our body that it’s not looking so amazing. 

30:35 Sarah: And I talk about, when I’m with women and stuff, I talk about this idea of like, you know, there’s this...we as women get into serious judgement, but when we can come from learning to love ourselves from the way God sees us (because obviously that’s important), that we can be able to be at one with our husbands, even. And not focus so much on the belly fat that’s hanging out when we’re trying to get on top of him, you know? And just like, how we can emotionally connect instead of looking at our bodies and judging every nook and cranny that we don’t like, kind of thing.

31:25 Daniel: Love that.  Now, you jumped into something later on, about how women need novelty. I thought this was interesting. I believe it. I’m one who likes to shatter myths out there. But the prevailing thought is, men need novelty. Women want consistency. Tell me more about this. 

31:45 Sarah: Yeah.

31:56 Sarah: Yeah. Well, I think [...] I do believe women, we do need novelty. We just don’t think we need it [laughs]. I don’t know if that makes sense. We do love,

32:11 Daniel: Yes

32:12 Sarah: we like change. I don’t like the same position every time, I mean, anybody else? I mean, once I actually, was the--I mean, yes, I did missionary position for years, trust me, I know. But now that I’ve educated myself and I’ve found other ways to, you know, “quote, unquote” “sized up the bedroom” I actually do thrive on change in the bedroom. It keeps the spark alive and it creates more novelty, you know?

32:45 Sarah: Yeah

32:46 Daniel: because I think a lot of men get criticized because they want something new and that’s scary for their partners, but I--

32:51 Sarah: Yeah

32:52 Daniel: You’re realizing, part of the problem is you wanted it to be changed up, you wanted it exciting, you wanted it novel. And I think that’s part of the discovery for a lot of women in discovering their desire is, “wow, I’m realizing I’m not as vanilla as I thought I was.”

33:55 Daniel: Just going back to the concept of not judging it and allow it to flow naturally. 

34:01 Sarah: Yeah.

34:02 Daniel: As Emily Nagoski says, don’t put on the brakes. Just...

35:35 Sarah: Differences aren’t the problem. We label ourselves when we first get married [laughs]. Now, like, you know as I’ve learned, not all men are higher desire partners, okay? Right?

36:16 Sarah: Okay, I’m trying to think of the author right now, but it was...it’s like, an old book. It was like....it’s old. But anyway, there’s this...he talks about this whole idea of passion. Because, sometimes like, as women, we label ourselves as lower desire, say that we are, right? And we view the partner as the higher desire. But there’s different ways of expressing and showing passion to each other. And it doesn’t necessarily have to be just like a sexual thing. Sometimes, in different seasons of our lives, we kinda ebb and flow, and you know, go from one extreme to another or something. And I think this whole idea that we put labels is unfortunate, because I chose to give myself that label for all those years, and I clung on to it. And I would just view my husband, like, “you just want sex all the time. And I’m just gonna sit here, and just kinda vent to you that I don’t wanna have it, because I’ve already labelled myself that I don’t want it.”

37:30 Daniel: As opposed to learning how to meet the needs of each other.

37:33 Sarah: Yeah, yeah.

38:45 Sarah: Ok, so, you know I’m reading all these books, right? And consuming everything that I could. And I just, I remember always just like walking out, like, in public, you know, in Target or wherever, and seeing all these women. And I”m like, “oh. If they only knew. oh if they only knew.” Right? [laughs] and there’s a point where…’cause I truly believe I’ve obviously come to a place where I--and you’ve seen this in my book--I’m a realist. Like, I really share the dark sides of me, and my hang-ups and everything, and I’m okay with it. I've come to a place where I don’t have this fear of judgement of what other people might think of me, because I’ve realized that the more I share, the more respect I get from people. And so, as I was reading all these things, and I’m going out into public and I see all these women, and I’m just wondering, “I wonder if she’s like...if she was like me.” Because I’m now, not. I don’t really...it’s hard for me, sometimes, to even take myself back, even three years ago, to where I was. Because I’m so much more happier now. But sometimes i have to take myself there so that I can be, you know, relatable, to other women, right? So, of course in our LDS culture, [laughs] I have definitely … I’ve lost friendships. I’ll be honest.

40:18 Daniel: What do you mean? I think I know what you’re talking about there, because I’ve experience the same, but share with the audience what that means. Just because you’re being passionate and open about sexuality, you lost friends?

41:43 Sarah: So as I’ve opened up about it, and talked to people within my neighborhood or community, like I just know that I am making strides with people. I actually, just yesterday, I had a friend who had finally come around. I’ve been talking to her for like, since I started reading books, and just recently she was like, “Sarah, I think I’m ready.” You know? And you just have to kinda wait for those people to come around, and they will, eventually. And they’ll realize just how powerful this can be, when they can open and be more curious to see what their life can be like if they chose to look at it with a different perspective. 

42:34 Daniel: Absolutely.

42:35 Sarah: So yeah.

42:38 Daniel: People know what you know.

42:38 Sarah: No, yeah.

44:28 Daniel: So, I… hold off on that, because I--

44:31 Sarah: [laughs]

44:31 Daniel: I love that you refer to porn the way you did in your book, as a compulsion, as a temptation, as a potential device in a marriage or [pauses] divisiveness in a marriage. 

44:45 Sarah: Yeah.

44:46 Daniel: And I love the language that you used in there, and I would be interested in exploring that a little more, if you’d like. Do you want to tell us a little bit more about it, and why you included it?

45:24 Sarah: But, that day, he came and approached me, and it was during this time that I had finished writing my first book. And I was, like I said before, I was in a really good place, and just felt pretty good about life because I was working on myself. And I think that’s what’s key here, in this chapter particularly, is, whether man or woman, right? Really focus on, what are you doing in the relationship? What can you do to better yourself, to become a better version of yourself? And that’s kinda where i was at that point, luckily. 

46:01 Sarah: And that’s when Trent felt comfortable to actually approach me and tell me about his porn addiction. Because, you know, he had these fears that I would leave him and all these things, right? Like everybody might have. And he came, and he told me, and it was just this, you know, gut-wrenching kind of feeling. And the first question that came into my mind, “what’s wrong with me? Why does he feel like he has to do this? I can’t believe he’s done this. He’s this amazing man, how did porn get a hold of him?” Kind of thing. And so, back then, I was doing a lot of video journaling, and so after he told me, I just was like, “kay, just hold on a second, I need to go into my closet and kinda think about this.” 

46:48 Sarah: So, I went to my closet and for ten minutes I just kind of, just like, talked to myself. Like, just basically went through, in my head, what I’d just heard. And, it’s interesting, I still have this video and I treasure it, but...so you’ll notice (well, you won’t notice, because you’re not watching it), but in the first five minutes, I’m just like, processing, like, “why him? Why me?” Everything right? This pity party. And then, the last five minutes, I just kinda make this shift. It was God telling me, “Sarah, he’s a son of God.” And that’s all I heard. That’s all I heard, and I knew that I needed to walk with him in this journey. 

47:34 Sarah: I was not to fix him, because I can’t fix him, right? But I can walk with him to, you know, figure out how to help him navigate, you know, and how to get the help that he needed kind of stuff. And so, that was [...] once again, it’s a simple thing, but that was the one thing that really carried me through that experience. Just recognizing that he’s a son of God and together we can work through the porn addiction, and we can come out on top. And we definitely have. And it’s been an incredible experience. But there’s definitely been pain. It hasn’t been easy. But, there’s definitely a light at the end of the tunnel.

48:22 Daniel: A lot of people are listening, saying, “okay, yeah, you just shared he just dumped this big thing on you.” And if I remember right, you even equate pornography to adultery, or cheating, on the relationship, am I remembering correctly?

48:54 Sarah: Yeah.

48:54 Daniel: You actually went and learned a lot from Cameron Staley,

48:59 Daniel: about mindfulness, which is not an addiction approach, it’s a very mindful approach.

49:34 Sarah: Yeah.

49:59 Sarah: Yeah.

50:09 Sarah: Yep, that’s the worst thing you could do, is to withhold it.

50:10 Daniel: Absolutely, absolutely. Although, giving them sex, you shouldn’t have this expecation: now, he’s gonna be safe, you know? In fact, I think you pointed that out, if I remember right.

50:26 Sarah: Then he won’t even go look, yeah.

50:27 Daniel: And that’s a reward or punishment approach, as opposed to communication and connecting.

50:33 Sarah: Yes.

51:02 Sarah: Yeah, just finding that middle ground. I mean, I remember coming home and asking anything I could about porn. Because, I had no idea what that world was like. None. And so, it blew my mind to see, like, wow. I really don’t know anything! But at the same time, like, let’s come together and have conversations to see, like, how we can navigate this new normal. Come to a middle ground to connect. I mean, we uh, this could be a whole-nother podcast. That definitely, that experience...I mean, it didn’t take me on my sex journey, because I found out about this, probably like 5 years ago. 

51:51 Daniel: You mean, his use of porn?

52:52 Daniel: Sarah, that is wonderful. I would actually really love having you on again, at a future time, to talk about that. 

52:58 Sarah: Yeah.

53:11 Sarah: Thank you. Aw, yeah, it’s been a pleasure. I appreciate you letting me have an opportunity to share my story.

53:18 Sarah: It’s always something I like to talk about [laughs].

53:20 Daniel: Oh, clearly,

53:24 Daniel: Yeah. Your journey has been--

53:25 Sarah: Saved me.

Full Transcript:

0:00:00.0 Narrator: Welcome to Improving Intimacy, a podcast to help single and married, Latter-Day Saints strengthen their family connections and marriages. Daniel A. Burgess is the host of Improving Intimacy, Daniel is a Marriage and Family Therapist, father, husband, and author. Here's Daniel on this episode of Improving Intimacy.

[music]

0:00:26.3 Mike Frasier: Alright men, welcome to today's episode. I've got a special guest for us today. This is Daniel Burgess. So he is a family therapist that runs a family therapy, and helps couples and individuals with their marriages, and I met him in his Facebook group, Improving Intimacy, and used to be called Mormon marriages. Now it's called In Latter Day Saint marriages.

0:00:52.7 MF: I complied.

[laughter]

0:00:55.3 MF: So yeah, anything else you want the audience know about you Daniel?

0:01:00.0 DB: That's great, I love that. Yeah, come check it out.

0:01:03.2 MF: Yeah, yeah he does great work. And I've really enjoyed his...

0:01:07.6 DB: Thank you.

0:01:08.6 MF: Yeah, his group and the stuff he's doing. So yeah, so today we're talking about a more sensitive topic, at least in the LDS Community, which is masturbation, and Daniel has done a lot of study about this, a lot of work on it, it was coming into our group, actually, Daniel, that kinda got me thinking about it in a different way. And was really a good journey for me.

0:01:35.9 DB: Wonderful.

0:01:36.8 MF: Actually, so I appreciate your work on that, so I guess what I wanted to start with, and I think this is really the big question on most LDS people's minds, is whether masturbation is actually a sin or not, and when I asked that question, I wanted to look up what sin actually was. And so I think this is a good definition an immoral act that's considered to be a transgression against divine law, meaning there's a law that says, no masturbation. And then when you break that, you are breaking that law. So, yeah. Thoughts on that.

0:02:14.0 DB: That's a great question. It's one that I get quite frequently and to kinda set up the answer here, I just did an interview for my podcast Improving Intimacy for Latter-Day Saint relationships with Kari Ferguson, who wrote the book, The OCD Mormon. And the reason why I bring that up is a big part of our discussion is something that I've seen, definitely in clients who tend to ask this question is rigidity in their thinking around spirituality and sin, and how that negatively affects ironically, maybe even paradoxically, our spirituality, a fabulous book a wonderful person, and we explore those thoughts in deep and I'll reference you to that for further discussion. But in short, I love that definition that I learned at least on my mission was, Anything acting against the will of God is sin, and sin is essentially a guide for us to draw closer to Him, not to sin, to draw closer to Him, but to avoid sin or things that separate us from God, and when we can think about in that context, we can now see self-mastery in a different view. We even talked about transgression, Joseph Fielding Smith says there's a big difference between transgression and sin, transgression is one of the things that we as humans learn to be better at that heavenly Father expects us to make mistakes, that's why the atone is there.

0:03:42.4 DB: Now, to answer that question, is masturbation a sin? I don't wanna sound avoidant of the answer, but it really depends. It really depends on the person. Is this drawing you closer to God? Is this helping you understand your body, is this creating better self-awareness, self-mastery, is it creating peace in your life? If it isn't, then that needs to be explored and understood better, that's the whole purpose of this life is to master our minds and our bodies, and what does that look like? Especially when we're dealing with different biology, and sometimes people say you should never masturbate. Well, that may be true for that person, that may not be a biological need, or when I use the word need here, I'm talking about experiences that provide enjoyment and pleasure, of course, we could go a whole lifetime without masturbating and not die. And I've heard people use that argument, you won't die, so you don't need it. Well, then we could go to Maslow's hierarchy of needs. We won't die without people loving us in our life, but our life will be pretty miserable, right?

[laughter]

0:04:50.2 DB: There are cases actually that children have died out of neglect, of love, and that's true, but I think the point is, there is... I think when we look at this in a very rigid way, is sin black and white, we kinda cross in this line of obsessive compulsive thought process of or scrupulosity, and focus more on the growth in our relationship with ourself and the Lord.

0:05:16.9 MF: Yeah, I love that. I love that idea of those questions that you posed, of... Instead of, Is this sin? Which like you said, is about, oh right wrong did I follow the rule right or did I not follow the rule right. It's like, No. Is this bringing me closer to God, is this helping me enjoy my life more? I think once you're married, an important question with however you're using your sexuality is, is this bringing me closer to my spouse or not? And I think with that too, you mentioned, I think for women, this happens maybe sometimes more than guys where that exploration process, maybe it hasn't happened as much as it has maybe with some guys before marriage, and actually exploring that and figuring out what works for you can be a gift to yourself and to your marriage. Thoughts on that.

0:06:22.6 DB: Yeah, absolutely, and I think that's the main goal, and that's why I set up my group in proving intimacy in Latter-day Saint relationships is for us, what are we doing in our relationships, our intimate relationships that we can improve on to draw us closer to God that is the underlining and the core focus here, how can we understand and learn God and draw closer to Him and in our relationships? And so that could involve... Often we sacrifice or we ignore, or we neglect our sexual self and don't really explore and understand that, like we do the other aspects of our spiritual life to draw closer to God, and so this is very much a negotiation a discussion with our partner and with the Lord, and as long as it's in that confined, I believe it's healthy, whatever that decision is, I have seen masturbation benefit and reward relationships like no other thing has in their life. It provides options. It provides a discussion, and I think as long as you're taking it to the Lord, and you address it with your spouse and you come up with what works for you, then you're doing what the Lord wants you to do, drawing closer to Him and your spouse.

0:07:37.2 MF: Yeah. Awesome, so with that, to look at the other side of this, because I think some people hearing that, they're gonna think, Oh well then you know that I can do whatever I want, like if I wanna go have sex with a bunch of other people and we're both okay with that, then that should be fine. Right. So what would you say to that thought? Well, you know, I prayed about it. And that was my answer. It's fine to go do that.

0:08:15.6 DB: Yeah, well, it's interesting 'cause I heard kind of two different comments there's one, kind of this non-monogamous exploration, as long as you agree with it, it's fine, and the other one is anything... Well, I guess they're kinda the same thing. Anything goes now, and the first thought I would have or question is, This seems to fall under this black and white thinking is either it's absolutely right or it's absolutely wrong, and I think the Lord is definitely, at least in our day, made some clear guidelines in the temple, we specifically commit to each other and in this relationship, and now does that mean anything goes or not? I think there's definitely a constraint there, we've committed very specifically to each other, that we will figure this out between each other and the Lord, I don't think there's a cart blanche there that says, yeah, anything else on your relationship is okay, the purpose, like I was pointing out is, is it drawing you closer to your spouse and to the Lord, do you feel like you're honoring your temple covenants that you specifically made? Now, when we talk about masturbation and things that help improve desire towards each other. I think those things are open for discussion and prayer with Heavenly Father.

0:09:43.5 DB: Now, going back to your question, some can argue, Well, we've both decided we feel closer to each other when we could explore outside of the relationship, and I'll be frank, if that's what you have decided, I personally don't think that's what the Lord has said, and I don't see any justification for that. And so I'm not gonna tell somebody that they got false revelation, that's not my job as a therapist, my job is to help them understand how to live a healthier life, and so there's an argument for everything, and I could totally see where people can... And I've seen it, well, I'm gonna go and do whatever. And when I hear that phrase though, that triggers this kind of black and white thinking, going from one extreme of rigidity to another, and I would push on that, I would really explore that, is that really what you're doing? Are you going from a... I'm gonna just say kind of like a repressed or rigid thinking to, wow, the doors just blow open, I'm gonna do whatever I want. That would be a concern to me, and I would explore that first. That's a concern to me.

0:10:52.9 MF: Yeah, I think that you brought up something super important, I think they're both basically immature reactions.

0:11:00.3 DB: Excellent, Yeah.

0:11:00.8 MF: Yeah, it's like, Oh, either somebody has to tell me everything I have to do, or nobody can tell me anything that I have to do, like they're both pretty immature versus saying Like look, Okay, here's my read of the scriptures, or if that's what I believe we're kind of assuming someone's active LDS or Christian, like trying to do what God wants them to do.

0:11:27.3 MF: And if you come into it with that in mind and you're like, Hey, I read the scripture, I did... If you went to the temple, I made these promises. I'm gonna be just faithful to my wife, so I wanna keep it within that, but then within that, like you said, growing, developing that maturity to say, "Yeah, this does help. And this does not help." One of the things I like is," by their fruits, you shall know them", and I think that so applies here, if you try it and the fruit is good, good. If you try it and the fruit is not good, you say, Okay, that was an experiment, wasn't good, we're gonna cut that one off so, yeah.

0:12:14.1 DB: Yeah. Fair points.

0:12:16.5 MF: Yeah, so for those [laughter].. Maybe the satisfies of the more OCD Mormon folks out there. I know you've done quite a bit of research on How it sort of the... The church has looked at masturbation over time? And kind of how that has shifted, sort of back and forth, maybe you could just give us certainly a brief kind of summary of how that's gone.

0:12:43.0 DB: Yeah, really, really quick summary here. There's very little documentation from the restoration from 1830 to about 1890, we're getting more and more, as the Joseph Smith papers are in development and it's exciting. Public access, a lot of people go to it. When I was researching it, I had to spend hours and hours and in archives and trying to find these documentation. There really isn't much. In fact, we had a very... If I could use the word progressive view of intimacy. We were a very different church. We viewed sexual relationships as beautiful. And in a time that orgasms were viewed as dangerous and lethal. They literally believed that, "Each time you had an orgasm, you took years off your life." This was that idea back then, that really didn't end until about 1920s, maybe a little earlier from that. And we had a very opposing view to that, not... In a very positive way. And we only start to see... Even if I could say it's negative comments about masturbation, only in the context of serious transgressions where people are having... I wanna be appropriate for the show. Let's just say sexual abuse issues. Let's just keep it in those terms. And there's ideas that were prominent at that time, not just in the church, but because we're a melting pot of religions at the restoration.

0:14:22.8 DB: We have a lot of traditional cultural ideas being brought in thinking that masturbation led to certain behaviors including homosexuality and to other sexual transgressions. And so the only things you can really find that I'm aware of now and I've researched as extensively as you mentioned, is in meeting notes where some brethren will say it's because they did this and they would reference masturbation, and this is where it would lead. There was never any official stance against masturbation. In fact, it was about 1920 that there was a conference address of some guest who says, "We approach sexuality", and I can provide these links in references to you offline and you could include.

0:15:06.2 MF: Yeah.

0:15:06.6 DB: But, saying," I'm impressed that you Latter day Saints can talk about sexuality, including masturbation so openly", which blew my mind. I was like, really? They... I mean not only to recognize that, but to even make it part of a public address. And then in 1930, the Relief Society president at the time was called to provide mental health guidance to the church. And she provided, Amy Lyman Brown, it provided these lessons, and one of those lessons was "Parents, don't over-react to your children masturbating. You'll cause depression, anxiety, even suicidal thoughts." very fascinating. It wasn't until about the '40s that President Clark started to interject other ideas. And long story short, my interpretation of that was because of the Kinsey books came out on human sexuality and the father of the sexual revolution. And I think the church was trying to do something to differentiate ourselves from that movement. Which I both understand, but also see kind of a shift in the opposite direction.

0:16:11.8 DB: And it's only at that time that we see really negative comments and emphasis on the dangers of masturbation and emphasizing it's a sin. And then we see this changing in the mid-80s, due to seeing, Amy Lyman Brown was right. We're seeing an increase of depression, suicidal thoughts, and negative behavior and unhealthy behavior. And so since the 80s, we've been seeing a more healthy shift towards... Look it... This doesn't cause homosexuality, it doesn't cause all these things that we believe they did. And it is part of a healthy development. And so they haven't specifically come out and reversed some of those comments for strength of youth manuals and whatnot. But we definitely see a shift of them eliminating those phrases and terminologies out of the manuals and handbooks and seeing a more positive shift towards... Look, figure this out between You and the Lord, especially in marriage. So that's a really, really horrible summary, but...

[overlapping conversation]

0:17:15.7 MF: I thought it was great. [laughter]

0:17:16.4 DB: Okay, good, good.

0:17:17.6 MF: I don't know, it's great.

0:17:19.3 DB: Very short and precise.

0:17:19.8 MF: Well, yeah, I think the way that... After I read through your materials, when I looked at it, it was like... It's okay. Or it's even part of normal development.

0:17:30.2 DB: Was being addressed. Yeah.

0:17:30.8 MF: Yeah, to bad bad bad, and now we're kind of coming back up to... I think, like you said, President Nelson's really focusing on personal revelation and using this... This can be a place where you really can use personal revelation and you really can look at What are the fruits of exploring that, of looking at how sexuality is part of who you are.

0:18:03.4 DB: Yeah. And let me add real quick. One thing when we analyze developments in the church, whether doctrinal, History or whatever. We make a mistake of seeing things in isolation and we gotta realize there was a lot going on during that period of '40s. We had one of the fastest booming growth of the church, to this date from the '40s to the '70s. And so the brethren were also trying to address How do we address a growing church? They created the department of correlation and everything else, and so they tried to standardize teachings across an entire world of membership. And so there's bound to be learning, lessons learned and things not perfectly instituted. And so I think it's important for us to take ourselves out of the vacuum and realize thousands of variables are involved here. It's not just is something... We go back to that rigidity, is something right or wrong? And I think what we're doing is now we're learning, How do we teach a worldwide right church? Not just the Salt Lake Church anymore.

0:19:07.3 MF: Yeah, awesome, and super helpful. I think, like you mentioned, it's not so much, but we're trying to grow out of the even home teaching like, Oh, once a month, go, go, go, and that's like Minister, meaning, take care of these people and use your judgment and your... Like what these texts mean...

0:19:32.8 DB: Excellent example.

0:19:33.8 MF: In addressing that but I think with sexuality, we're starting to see some of that as well, there are structures, there are lines, I think being sexually faithful to your wife is a pretty clear line or husband, right, as far as an actual commitment or an actual law that God's given us, but then outside of that saying, Okay, how do I... Like, sexual is part of who I am. It's weird, but Jennifer Finlayson-fife talks about this, how God is a sexual being and heavenly mother's a sexual being, it's weird for us to think about, but we're created in their image, they have that too. And how do they use that... One of the things that you work with people who struggle with, pornography too and want to use less or whatever, and one of the things that I have encouraged people to ask themselves, it's like, Okay, I have my sexuality, like How do I want to use that in the world?

0:20:44.1 DB: Yes.

0:20:45.6 MF: And then that becomes the standard instead of, Oh, can I do this or can I do that? It's like, No. So for me, my own statement is I want to use my sexuality to connect deeply with and have fun with my wife, and so now I look and say, Okay, is this helping me get there or is it detracting from that and that's been much more useful than going down this OCD.

0:21:10.2 DB: Yes.

0:21:10.6 MF: OCD track.

0:21:12.7 DB: Especially for the men. I wanna emphasize this for us men, one of the negative consequences of how we've treated sexuality over the years, and I'm not just speaking church culture, but it definitely was reinforced by church culture, is men talking about sexuality is synonymous with creepiness and weird and dangerous, and we've unfortunately associated words like lust as a negative thing, and I realize like Matthew 5-27 uses the word lust, and this is a perfect example of how we've had a false narrative created for us and this is what I mean, Matthew 5-27 is actually misinterpretation. The word actually should be covet, not lust lust is actually that specific word translated correctly is used as a positive throughout scripture, in Luke 2:22-15, Matthew 13-17, Luke 15-16 and Luke 16-21, all describe Christ Himself lusting after something, whether it's the Passover or righteousness, or whatever. And I realize it's a little nuance, but I think it's an important nuance because I often hear, I've got to avoid lust.

0:22:32.0 DB: And why is this important? Because he emphasizes it's scripturally based, lust means to desire beauty, to desire something good, God like covet is negative, it's not Christ-focused, it's not, God focused, which has resulted us men specifically. Let me emphasize why I'm bringing this up too 'cause it's a conversation I frequently have with colleagues and clients is, you may be wondering, and I realize I'm blending a little bit of topics here, but bear with me, is you may be wondering, Well, am I rigid in my thinking No, I just wanna be perfect. Well, that's one indicator that you might actually have rigid scrupulosity thinking, and the other is that my mind just went blank sorry. That you can't... Oh, that's what it was. You can't pray to God about your desires. And I see this more with men than with women, and this is a constant paradox, it's like women who speak up about sexuality are praised for their courageousness. Men who talk up about their sexuality, or I pray to God about this will be perceived as creepy or weird, or we may feel creepy or weird, I can't talk to God about my sexuality. That may be an indicator that you have rigid thinking around this, if our heavenly parents desire us to have sexual feelings and desires, we should be able to freely talk to them about it, and if we can't...

0:24:03.0 DB: That's the negative narrative, I believe that we've been taught as men, and if we want sexual relationships, we're looked at as pawning or begging or sex focus or lusting after, no, it's beautiful, we desire to have sexual relations with our spouse, and we need to speak up and break that narrative and rewrite how we talk about that and how that talk is being perceived, I think that's why a lot of men default to the joking or the silliness or whatever, because that's what they've been told to do and who they are, and we need to take back that narrative and like the women can, I wanna talk about sexuality and be praised for it, it's a beautiful, healthy thing, I desire to be a sexual being, and that's not weird. And I think that's something we men should remember.

0:25:00.3 MF: No, a great point, great point. Yeah, I think when we look at owning that and directing that, it's a powerful force, powerful energy, and deciding how you wanna direct... I love what you said about taking it to God saying, Look, I have these desires, like what's the way to direct them, like and Alma talks about bridling our passions, it doesn't mean that you stop your passions or kill your passions, it's... No, you bridle... Let me direct them to where you want to go.

0:25:38.4 DB: And one last thought on this whole idea of what it looks like to desire. One of the things that I find is beautiful in my relationship with my wife, and I think is appropriate, is we are able to say "That person looks beautiful", male or female. She's attractive. He's attractive. And our relationship is not threatened. Our trust in our relationship is solid. It isn't dependent on whether or not we speak up our desires or not. And that's a false narrative, that's another false narrative is, now in context, right, if, for example, trauma history, we've gotta respect and understand that context. We can't just say, "Tough, I don't care about your trauma, or I don't care about your insecurities." I have worked with a client in the past where the wife acknowledged she has huge amounts of insecurities, and because her husband... Her husband was looking at an Instagram model, not even pornography in its truest sense, and he acknowledged it, he's never had a history of anything. She's required him to purge himself of any of that desire versus her looking at her self and building on her issues around insecurity. It's a team effort. You both need a partner in this experience, as I think you know and understand, but when it becomes a one-sided thing, blaming a partner, and there's clearly breaking the line, right?

0:27:08.1 DB: It's interesting though, when a woman says they desire or they think something that's beautiful, it could be totally fine and not a threat to your relationship. But if a man says that, this is that false narrative, it's impossible for a man to see something that's beautiful, acknowledge it, and still have a fully committed cleaving unto their partner relationship. And we're told often that that's not possible. We're not as simple creatures on and off switches as I think we've been taught. We also desire connection and monogamy. We just also are trying to understand how to express and experience desire.

0:27:52.8 MF: Yeah. No, I like that idea a lot. And I think there's... When you do get to a level of sexual intimacy that is really connected, where you are sharing who you are at a deep level with this person, and they're sharing with you. And that's just something that... When we talk about save yourself for marriage, we teach our kids hey it's like save yourself for marriage. Why do you do that? Because ideally, when you have sex with your wife, you are sharing your whole soul with that person. This is who you want to be with. This is who you want to raise a family with. This is who you want to spend your life with. And that all comes through, through this physical act. And that's why you say that. It's not 'cause it's like wrong, and then all of a sudden it's right. It's like, no, this is something so powerful, and good, and connecting that you wanna choose someone really special to do that with. So, then to put that in context, so you say, "Oh yeah, that girl is hot or whatever," doesn't mean I want to connect with this person physically, mentally, emotionally, spiritually, and spend my life with them like...

0:29:11.7 DB: No.

0:29:12.3 MF: When you have sex them...

0:29:13.3 DB: That's that black-and-white thinking.

0:29:15.4 MF: Right. Right. Yeah. So yeah. I think when you do experience that connection, it's just so rich and powerful that it's something that you want to, yeah, enjoy.

0:29:29.6 DB: I was just telling my wife this morning, I actually thanked her. I says, "I'm so thankful." And this is sparking from a thread that I was following and how people were arguing that they can't even look. They can't have any other desires except for unto their wife. And well, at its core, I believe that. The only desire I have is for my wife. I also... I turn to her as I was waking up and says, "I'm really thankful that you can tell me you find certain things attractive. That's beautiful to me. That tells me that you have desire, that you have an appreciation for these things, and in no way do I ever feel threatened." It's never a feeling of like, "Oh, you want me to look like that." That's my insecurity if I ever feel that way.

0:30:15.3 MF: Sure.

0:30:16.8 DB: And I would actually be concerned if she never said that. If she never pointed out, "Wow, she has a good butt. Oh, he has good abs." I would wonder... Is your blood cold? Do you not see these things? Do you not appreciate it? It's like looking at art, can't we look at other things, art or things that are beautiful, and are we afraid that our partner is gonna become more attracted to that thing? I'm not trying to be silly, but in all seriousness, we should have interests and desires. That doesn't mean we're gonna make a commitment or break a relationship because of it. I think it's very objectifying. I think it's ironically objectifying to say that men can't have more complex experiences and a commitment solely to their partner while also appreciating something that looks beautiful.

0:31:10.8 MF: Yeah, one thing that I have noticed myself doing too, is if I find my thoughts... So yeah. You can appreciate. Oh yeah, that's a good looking girl. She's pretty, but if I noticed I'm starting to run down that track of attraction or wanting to have sex with this person, like what I found more use for myself instead of trying to just shut that all down to like, "No, no, no, no, don't think that." I actually go the other way. I'm like, "Okay. Let's say that it goes that way. Is that really what I want? Do I want to destroy my family?

0:31:47.1 DB: Excellent.

0:31:47.7 MF: Do I want to be that example to my kids? Do I want to do all that?" And all of a sudden, it's like, "No, is that worth a few seconds of pleasure or... "

0:32:00.1 DB: Yeah.

0:32:01.4 MF: Definitely not. And that for me, that's been a lot more helpful than trying to be like, "Oh, this is bad. Don't think that way."

0:32:07.3 DB: Yeah, that's what we call acceptance commitment therapy. Good for you. And I think you hit it on the head right there is if you start to think you want to have sex with this thing or this person you think is beautiful, address that thought.

[laughter]

0:32:22.4 MF: Right.

0:32:24.0 DB: I think that's a narrative that we've been taught, that's as soon as we find a woman or a person attractive, we now sexually crave that person. We need to break that narrative. That doesn't have to be that triggering thought. And everybody's different, of course, but I think we've been trained to think that way. And I think by addressing that concerning behavior or that concerning thought, and addressing that or like you did, you experiencing it, you said, "Do you really wanna do that?" That's what's important. Not shutting down all desire.

0:32:55.7 MF: Yeah, yeah, very good. Awesome. Well, thank you so much Daniel. Let's do a quick... A quick summary here. So, we talked about the idea of is masturbation a sin or not. And I think you really put it...

0:33:08.7 DB: Take it to the lord.

0:33:09.9 MF: Yeah, I think you really put it well, which is that's actually the wrong question. The question is, is the way I'm using my sexuality, whether that includes masturbation or whatever, is that bringing me closer to God? Is it bringing me closer to my wife or not? Right? And then, you're asking yourself is it in line with what has clearly been revealed? If that's in integrity to you to be someone that's following basically what God says, he's been pretty clear as far as being monogamous once you're married, but outside of that, there's not like a cut and dry this is how sex is supposed to be in marriage. So from there, it's more about like you said is this driving me closer to God? Is this driving me closer to God? And then, yeah, I think that's basically the summary.

[laughter]

0:34:00.9 DB: Excellent. No, I think it's a good summary. It's a pleasure as always Mike.

0:34:05.6 MF: Likewise. Yeah, very good.

0:34:07.7 DB: If anybody has that... I realized this pretty quick. If anybody has any questions or want clarification, I know we did a lot in a very short amount of time. My email is always open and my contact, you'll include that information and feel free to reach out.

0:34:21.6 MF: Yeah, great. Yeah, maybe if you just wanna call out one more time the easiest way to find you?

0:34:26.7 DB: You know what? Yeah, I run the Sutton Family Therapy, but the best way is to go to my personal website where I have this all specifically for Latter Day Saints is my name, my full name, danielaburgess.com. And you'll find everything with the improving intimacy there and all the articles that you referenced, and my blogs and my podcast there and my contact info. So danielaburgess@... Excuse me, danielaburgess.com.

0:34:55.2 MF: Perfect. Hey, thanks so much, Daniel, appreciate your time today.

0:34:55.8 DB: Yeah.

0:34:56.5 MF: And alright, stay strong man. We will see you next episode.

0:35:00.9 DB: Thank you.

[music]

Kari Ferguson is the author of "The OCD Mormon" and "For and In Behalf Of" and creator of the blog, "Of Faith and Great Anxiety." She is a current member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints

and has served as Primary and Relief Society President.  Kari runs the bookstore Oh Hello Again (ohhelloagain.com) in Seattle. She received her MA in Communication, Culture and Society from Goldsmiths College, University of London, and her BS from Brigham Young University. Kari lives in Seattle, WA with her husband, two children, two bunnies, and giant puppy.

Kari's book https://amzn.to/30N5iF6,

Vice Article https://www.vice.com/en/article/k7qjzm/obsessive-compulsive-disorder-dirt-cleanliness-how-i-have-sex,

Website https://www.faithandanxiety.com/

Full Transcript:

0:00:00.3 Narrator: Welcome to Improving Intimacy, a podcast to help single and married Latter-day Saints strengthen their family connections and marriages. Daniel A. Burgess is the host of Improving Intimacy. Daniel's a marriage and family therapist, father, husband, and author. Here's Daniel on this episode of Improving Intimacy.

[music]

0:00:28.6 Daniel A. Burgess: Welcome to another episode of Improving Intimacy. Today I'm excited to have a special guest with us, Kari Ferguson, who is the author of OCD Mormon. Oh, did I get the title right? The OCD Mormon. I'm curious, have you even been interested or wanting to change the title now with the whole name change? Or have you felt like, "No, I'm gonna accept this."? I'm curious about that title. What has been your thoughts?

0:00:57.7 Kari Ferguson: We published it and then... 'Cause that's what my blog was called before, and then they had the whole, "Don't call yourselves Mormons," and... I don't know. We were just like, "Oh, whatever," I guess. That was who I was known as, is that at that point I thought it was just... I don't know. [chuckle]

0:01:14.7 DB: In the...

0:01:15.6 KF: Yeah, it's good for my scrupulosity as well, in a weird way.

0:01:18.7 DB: That's what I was wondering.

0:01:19.6 KF: Yeah, because of... Yeah, I have to keep it that. I'm bucking against what the church tells me to do.

[chuckle]

0:01:28.1 DB: Yeah, this is your form of exposure therapy.

0:01:31.5 KF: Exactly.

0:01:32.2 DB: Okay, I gotta accept it.

0:01:34.0 KF: I can't change it, yeah. It's out there.

0:01:35.6 DB: Well, I'm excited. I've been thinking about this a lot, and you and I were talking offline just a minute ago about why didn't I find you until now? In fact, when did you publish the book? How long ago?

0:01:47.1 KF: It came out in September of 2017.

0:01:50.6 DB: Okay, so not too long ago.

0:01:52.6 KF: Yeah, it's about three, four years ago now, yeah.

0:01:55.4 DB: A friend of mine who... So for my audience who doesn't know, I actually deal with a large amount of anxiety, something I've actually been coming to terms with it, or rather discovering more over the most recent years here, and have been reaching out to some friends and family.

0:02:13.1 DB: I have made a good friend with someone and we were talking about this this morning about, "Let's write our story about this," and he's like, "Yeah, this is so triggering for us." And I don't know if I can, I've got myself into a good place. I'm curious, so let's start off there. We'll get into some of the meat here and I have some quotes from your book that I really, really valued. I wanna start off that way, what motivated you to write this book, especially as somebody who struggles with anxiety and putting your story out there.

0:02:47.5 KF: For sure.

0:02:50.2 DB: What made you decide to do that?

0:02:51.8 KF: Yeah, well, I've always been a writer, so that's how I emotionally process things, I guess. So just for me, that was the logical step I would say. But I went through, like I wrote in the book, I went through a really intense OCD breakdown, we'll say, without knowing what it was, and then I finally got help with the help of my husband and therapy and medication.

0:03:17.6 KF: And I made a friend at church who also has obsessive-compulsive disorder, and so we had been talking about it, and I just, I thought, "There are a lot of people in our religion who have anxiety, who have these problems, but we don't know what to call it. We don't know what it is, we don't even know that it's a mental illness really." And I thought, "I'm gonna start a blog just about that, about having this issue as a Latter-day Saint, and maybe I could help some people."

0:03:55.6 KF: Because for me, if I had known 10 years before, it would've been a lot easier if I had realized fully what it meant and how I could get help, it would have changed my whole married life and my mission and everything. So I thought, "I can use my skill that I have, my writing, in order to help other people."

0:04:14.2 KF: So I started the blog, I think it was in... I don't know, 2016, summer. And so I just did that and it got sort of popular, not huge or anything, not viral, but enough that I was like, "I could write a book about this." And so I started just in general, "Mental illness in Latter-day Saints."

0:04:39.1 KF: And then on Twitter, I had this friend who's an LDS author named Mette Harrison, and so she kinda was my mentor and helped me really form the book, and she's like, "No, you need to go into your story personally. Don't be general, don't talk about... That's too much, that's too broad, all mental illnesses in LDS faith." So she really was like, "No, focus in. This is what you're known for. Write about having OCD and your story."

0:05:09.7 KF: So I did, and yeah, Cedar Fort said, "Yeah, this is great." The person who read my submission had a sister I think with scrupulosity, and so she was like, "Yes, we need this in the church and in the discourse."

0:05:26.3 DB: Well, I wanna explore more, 'cause you made it sound so easy to get this written here, and I am confident even though I don't know your story in getting the book published, I'm assuming it wasn't that simple or easy. But let's define this for the audience here. We've said a couple of times this word "scrupulosity" and "OCD." Explain, what is OCD and what is scrupulosity? How are they the same and how are they different?

0:05:54.9 KF: Okay. OCD, obviously Obsessive-Compulsive Disorder, so by nature you have these thoughts that keep coming, and then it leads you to do things in order to make yourself feel better. So for instance, you have a thought like, "My hands are dirty," and so you say, "Okay, well, I have to wash my hands," but then your brain says, "Oh, well, you didn't wash them well enough." And so then you have to keep washing your hands or you touch something and then, "Oh, your hands are dirty. You have to wash your hands again."

0:06:26.0 KF: So it's this kind of call and response where your brain is saying, "Oh, something's wrong, something's wrong," and then you physically... There's even mental OCD as well where they do mental compulsions, so it doesn't have to be a physical compulsion. But anything that you do to try and relieve these thoughts that you're having, if it's enough that it's causing you disturbance to your life, to your day, to your life, then it becomes OCD, where it's a disorder and you need... You should get treatment or help.

0:07:00.3 DB: It interferes with your life.

0:07:01.0 KF: Yeah, if it interferes with your life, exactly. And then scrupulosity specifically is a type of OCD. And that's something I didn't really know at first, was that there were different types of OCD. 'Cause people just throw around OCD so flippantly. Like, "Oh, I like to have books organized, I'm so OCD." But it's not an adjective. It's a disorder and it's serious.

0:07:23.3 KF: See, I didn't realise there were so many different types until I went to therapy, and people were telling all their different stories, and I was like, "Oh my gosh, all these things are OCD that I've had." [chuckle] But scrupulosity is religious OCD basically. And so it has to do with maybe worthiness or things like, "Oh, I'm not good enough" or, "Oh, I'm not worthy to go in the temple" or, "Oh, I shouldn't have said that thing." Anything that relates to our religious upbringing and our thoughts there.

0:07:53.8 DB: But wait a second, you just described empathy, right? I said something wrong, I may have hurt somebody's feelings.

0:08:04.2 KF: Yeah.

0:08:04.6 DB: What's the difference between empathy and...

0:08:09.0 KF: And repentance.

0:08:09.5 DB: And reasonableness, and repentance. So what's the difference? Help the listener know.

0:08:15.2 KF: Yeah, that's something my therapist and I talked about, and he was not... He's not LDS. But he said, "It's so hard with scrupulosity and people who deal with that, because a lot of times for them, it's like the therapist versus God." And who is gonna win that? Obviously, God is gonna win that. Right?

0:08:31.9 DB: Yes.

0:08:32.1 KF: For a religious person, you're gonna say, "No, this is like the Spirit telling me I'm doing something wrong and I need to repent." So it can be really difficult to say, "Okay, where is this line between this is a mental illness and it's telling me I'm doing everything wrong, and I actually am doing something wrong and I need to repent and change." So it's really difficult.

0:08:57.8 KF: For me, my OCD really started with scrupulosity back in college. And yeah, I just thought it was I'm having a "come to Jesus" moment and I'm realizing all these horrible things I'm doing wrong. And so I really, I beat myself up and I... So many issues. I couldn't be alone really, 'cause I was worried and my brain would just keep going and I would say, "I have to fast on this random Thursday because I need help," and nothing was helping.

0:09:27.3 KF: I would take a nap and I remember one time I had sleep paralysis, which I never had before, where you can't, your body can't move. "Is it something? This is not normal." And so, I don't know, I think I realized that then, that something wasn't normal, but I didn't actually get help until 10 years later. I did go on medication then.

0:09:48.3 DB: Wow.

0:09:48.4 KF: But yeah, I didn't really understand what it was, or the other things that it could cause. So it is really difficult. I think if you're... If you know, Mormons, we tend to know... Or LDS, sorry. We tend to know what is right and wrong. Right? And if you're really pushing yourself past the normal right and wrong...

0:10:11.0 KF: If you're worried about every single thing, and it's so bad to the point where you feel like you can't be alone, or that's all you think about, or you're so worried that God hates you. Or whatever, these are kind of warning signs that, you probably have a problem.

0:10:27.3 DB: Big time.

0:10:27.7 KF: And you should get help.

0:10:30.0 DB: Yes.

0:10:30.0 KF: Because it should not feel like that. God does not want you to feel like you're a terrible person all the time. That's not what Heavenly Father wants for us. So if you are feeling like that...

0:10:40.0 DB: That's an excellent...

0:10:41.2 KF: You'll be fine, yeah.

0:10:42.7 DB: Yeah, that's an excellent point, and I think it's... You're right, this is one of the most difficult things, mental health issues, to identify within our faith, because it's one of the few mental health struggles that we actually praise. So for example, we reinforce scrupulosity a lot in the church and we idolize people who have it.

0:11:11.1 DB: And we don't even know that they have it, or they may not even recognize they have it. Usually it's in the context of, "I study the Scripture for two hours a day. I pray for 30 minutes twice a day."

[chuckle]

0:11:22.6 KF: It's not healthy, really.

0:11:24.1 DB: No, it's not healthy, but yet it's the focus. When we see people like that, we admire them, we often say, "Wow, I wish I had that." Let me clarify, these are non-scholars, non-BYU professors, non-religious teachers. It's one thing to have a... Sorry.

0:11:44.1 KF: Yeah, exactly, exactly. And after realizing this, I read through the Book of Mormon, and I'm like, "Oh man, Jacob, I'm worried about Jacob." I feel like he probably had... He even says that he has, "My great anxiety of faith and great anxiety in my soul." I'm like, you feel bad for him, because they probably we're dealing with these things. Even Enos, praying all day and all night, like... I don't know. [chuckle] Maybe...

0:12:07.8 DB: I've even thought... I love that you bring that up because I've even thought about Nephi's prayer or his poem. It's, "O wretched man that I am." And I'm like, holy cow, this...

0:12:21.3 KF: Right? It's been around the whole time, we just didn't have the words to describe it. Even my therapist said, I think Martin Luther, they think had OCD, who began basically the whole Protestant Reformation. [chuckle] Which makes sense, he was very worried about everything. And so, I don't know. It's good and bad.

0:12:41.4 DB: It is.

0:12:42.6 KF: Yeah.

0:12:44.6 DB: It's a fine line, because clearly, there's nothing wrong with people who wanna study the Scriptures for two or three hours a day, and that's not, I'm not exaggerating.

0:12:55.0 KF: Yeah.

0:12:57.0 DB: But like going back to your earlier definition, it's when it interferes with your life. One of the measurements I use is if you place those concepts of perfection above your loved ones, and above your relationship with God, and you base your relationship with God off of those measurements, you may have scrupulosity.

0:13:23.7 KF: Yes, yes. No, I totally, I totally agree. And that's the point it gets to, and like I said, for me, I wish it had gotten... I realized that it was scrupulosity, and so the OCD didn't branch out into other areas of my life. Because it did. 'Cause OCD, if you get used to it in one way, it will try and get you in another way eventually.

0:13:46.5 DB: Yes.

0:13:47.2 KF: Yeah, I don't know. It's a tricky thing.

0:13:50.2 DB: Personally, I don't know if I would define myself having elements of scrupulosity, but as someone who does battle with anxiety and ADHD, my personality type is very different from what those we tend to admire in the church, somebody who, going back to that example of routine Scripture study. Now, I used to force myself and judge my worthiness based off of my ability to perform like somebody else, let's use the word neurotypical person.

0:14:29.6 DB: When I came to grips that my form of study and prayer takes on a very different look than somebody who's neurotypical, it was a breath of fresh air. And to be okay with that, the way I study, the way I pray, I felt closer to God immediately when I put off this... It gets me upset now, when I get people who bear their testimony, who says, "If you study the Scriptures the first thing you do when you wake up in the morning, you will be closer... " I go, "Nope, that's number one way to upset me and draw me further away from God."

[chuckle]

0:15:07.6 KF: Yes, everyone, it's so, that's so true. We all worship in different ways, and that I think that's meant to be, but we, for some reason in the church we're taught, "This is the way you do it." And so, yeah, for me it was like with the scrupulosity it was like, I felt so much duty, like my relationship with the church was really just like, "I have to do these things because this is what I've committed to do. And this is how you get to heaven."

0:15:33.8 KF: And so it was very like, this is my duty that I have to do this, if that makes sense? It wasn't so much out of love. I have testimony, but it wasn't like I'm doing this because I love the Savior, necessarily. The first and foremost was like, "Okay, this is what I have to do because this is what God expects me to do. And this is what I've covenanted with Him to do. And my family, I have an eternal family, they're relying on me to stay true," and all of these things.

0:16:00.3 KF: It was like all this pressure that you have to keep doing it in a certain way. But it's really unhealthy, and you get to a point where you're just like, "I can't, I can't anymore," and you have to realise maybe you don't have to accept every single calling, or maybe you don't have to be the perfect ministering sister or brother. Because I'm an introvert and it's hard for me to do certain things, but other things I can do really well.

0:16:30.5 KF: Even listening to general conference, I don't get much out of it, but reading it, I can. Where my husband is basically the opposite 'cause he has ADHD. So yeah, everyone is different, and it's fine. That's, we're made this way, it's not a sin to have mental illnesses or developmental...

0:16:47.4 DB: Differences.

0:16:48.2 KF: Differences of any kind. Yeah.

0:16:51.1 DB: So I'm gonna read off of page seven in your book. What was... It touched me to just... I struggle to put words into what I experience on this. Again, I may have some degree of scrupulosity, as I looked more and more inward, I don't think I fit the classic definition definitely, but again, it may be more of my anxiety and ADHD, just the differences in approach, but I loved what you said here on page seven.

0:17:22.4 DB: It says, "I spent evenings alone wanting to burst into tears but not feeling like it would do any good. I questioned why God would let me end up here alone. I wondered why I felt guilty and why I worried about every single thing. I was at a loss for what to do with myself. Uncertainty ate away at my sanity, and I thought I was going to have a nervous breakdown at any second. Last year, I did, and it was a surprise because I have always coped."

0:18:01.3 DB: What I would have said well, with my anxiety, I think because ironically, my ADD allowed me to break free of rigidity, and I actually think I was blessed with ADHD, for that reason. I don't know if "blessed" is the right word, 'cause that's not fair to others, but it definitely allowed me to cope.

0:18:29.7 DB: I fortunately have a wife who is like, "Tell me, share with me," and I never felt like I could. It's like, "You really wanna know what's going on in here?" And as I shared, now she's like, Oh, this is what... " In fact, yesterday, Sunday, I was having a really bad day. And when we came home from church, we're going to church now, and I told her, I said, "I can't even be touched, I can't. This is, I'm feeling overwhelmed. I have to go isolate myself."

0:19:02.2 DB: And she goes, "Oh my goodness, I had no idea." This is how I've pretended for so long. Are you wanting me to share this with you? I have felt alone, even in the midst of the most beautiful support system, because I don't feel like people could relate to me. When I read that paragraph, it tells me you know exactly what that was like. Share with me. Well, I guess...

0:19:35.0 KF: Yeah, yeah, no...

0:19:37.8 DB: Let me formulate that question a little bit better here. You said earlier... Well, in general, you have so much insight right now about why you did things, and you wish you'd known this 10 years earlier.

0:19:53.7 KF: Yeah.

0:19:54.4 DB: But the truth of the matter, most people with scrupulosity will not receive that information.

0:20:00.3 KF: No.

0:20:00.6 DB: Do you feel... 'Cause as I look at this and I say, "If somebody told me 10, 15, 20 years ago, I would have said, 'What are you talking about?'"

0:20:09.4 KF: Right. Yeah, especially in college.

0:20:10.6 DB: Even with just anxiety.

0:20:12.0 KF: Yeah. Right.

0:20:12.9 DB: Do you feel like you would have listened to your... You, 10...

0:20:17.3 KF: No, no. Well, you know, it's interesting, when I was writing the book, I got out my old journals. I had journalled through college, basically. And so I was reading from this time period of when it went... When it went down, when it was really bad, like I wrote about there. And I was just reading like, "Oh my gosh."

0:20:38.1 KF: And then I read about how, I went back to BYU, I was doing an internship at the time in Seattle. And so I went back to BYU and went to the health center, so I was like, "I'm gonna... You know, I need to get help of some kind." My mum's a nurse, so she was like, "Just go to the health center and tell them." And I had written down in my journal, like, "I went to the health center and they told me I had obsessive compulsive disorder."

0:21:01.4 KF: And I was like, "What? I knew. They told me." So exactly, I was told, but it just like, it went over my head. They didn't really... They must not have explained or I wasn't ready to accept that that's what I had. I don't know, and that's how I got on medication, was that visit. But I literally, until I re-read it, that journal years later, I was like, "What? They told me. I didn't know." Literally, it didn't come to me. So that's your answer, they did tell me and I was like, "No, no, I'm not gonna listen."

0:21:37.0 DB: Yes...

0:21:37.4 KF: "I don't care." Yeah.

0:21:39.1 DB: So I guess, the next question is, this is what I... What I think is the most difficult aspect about this, is, one, being able to recognize that this is actually a problem.

0:21:49.4 KF: Right.

0:21:49.9 DB: We've reinforced this within our church culture to idolize admire and even encourage this type of behaviour, thinking it's good.

0:22:00.6 KF: Yeah.

0:22:01.7 DB: I get a lot of pushback when I identify this, especially around sexuality.

0:22:06.3 KF: Yes.

0:22:07.1 DB: Which is what I deal with the majority of the time, is, "Are you telling me not to listen to the prophets? Are you telling me to not be perfect?" How would you recommend, knowing what you know now, to talk and to... I realise we can't convince people, but...

0:22:27.0 KF: Right.

0:22:27.8 DB: What are your thoughts? How would you go about helping people recognize this?

0:22:32.1 KF: Yeah, you know, it is so hard. When I was writing the book and publishing it, I was really Society president at the time as well.

0:22:41.9 DB: It's alright.

0:22:42.7 KF: So it was like also I had this overwhelming calling. And so I was able to talk with a lot of sisters and realise like "Oh, they have mental health problems." And the ones who did and knew, they felt more comfortable talking to me because I was so open about my mental health issues. And so it was actually a benefit having that openness.

0:23:07.5 KF: So I don't know, it's, I think those of us who do have mental health issues need to be more open at church about it and more vocal about it. Because then those people who do have it, but maybe don't realise it, can start saying, "Oh, I recognize that in myself." Or, "Oh yeah, I've done that." And then you get that seed planted.

0:23:30.7 KF: And it does take years sometimes for people to be diagnosed with anxiety or OCD. Anxiety is more when people are like, "Oh yeah, I have anxiety." I don't know, everybody seems like they're willing to admit that. But yeah, I don't know, so for me, it's like...

0:23:47.0 DB: It's an acceptable mental health issue.

0:23:48.7 KF: It's an acceptable. Exactly. Where scrupulosity it's like, "No, that's good you're like that." So I think also church leadership, which they've done a lot better recently, really begins to say like, "Okay, this is an issue that we have," stating it and coming out and being really just, yeah, really transparent about it.

0:24:08.8 DB: And, "It's okay, and this is... We don't wanna be like this. We wanna get help. It's not good to be obsessed about being worthy or perfect." I think as the more the higher-ups start to talk about it more, it will become something that people are like, "Oh, okay." You know, and Elder Holland gave a great talk a couple of years ago about that.

0:24:32.4 DB: He's great.

0:24:32.7 KF: They've done Ensign articles about these things as well. So they are working on it, I feel like. We did a conference called Anxiety Disorders in Mormonism, shortly after the book was published, and that was great. I think we had church leadership there from some department, I don't know. So you know, kind of probably checking up on us, seeing like, "Are they really teaching good things?" But also I hope it helped them to realise that this is an issue.

0:25:00.4 DB: Oh, wow.

0:25:00.5 KF: And it was sold out this conference at the Joseph Smith Memorial Building. This is something in the church that we need to talk about more. So yeah, I don't know.

0:25:09.3 DB: My goodness, yes. I think that's what's interesting here is... And I apologize, I think we're on a slight delay here, so I don't mean to be talking over you. You've published this book now three years ago, or four years ago, and this is the first time I'm hearing it.

0:25:30.5 KF: Right.

0:25:30.5 DB: And I'm a mental health professional. And to your point, I am surprised. I am absolutely baffled why you haven't been on... And this is not a criticism to my colleagues, but I am surprised that you haven't been on every mental health podcast in the LDS community. Being that this is such an important topic and it is related to anxiety, depression.

0:25:57.4 DB: Even if you don't have scrupulosity specifically, this is prevalent in the church. And so you're right, this needs to get out. And so if I could do my part. I agree with you. There's kind of a paradox, because as you said, and I 100% agree. The upper leadership need to be talking about it more. But that's also kind of fueling the problem. We're waiting for our leaders of authority to say, "This is what you need to do."

0:26:28.2 KF: It's true. And you know, there is this divide, I think, with a lot of church members. I did a book signing at a church book store in Washington after the book came out. I was sitting there and I have the books, and I heard someone walking by like, "Ugh, OCD Mormon." Like, "Oh, that doesn't matter. OCD doesn't matter" Yeah, I was like, "I'm right here." [chuckle]

0:26:53.1 KF: But it is one of the, specifically OCD is one that people don't really realise is a real mental health disorder. If that sounds... That sounds terrible, but it's true. Because we use this so flippantly, the "OCD" term. So I don't know. Yeah, it's really hard I think anxiety is an easier one, people will say, "Okay, yeah, you have anxiety."

0:27:14.4 KF: But all the mental illnesses is really are so co-morbid with each other where you can have one and the other. They kind of like to pair up and be friends, which is not fun. So yeah, I have OCD, but I also do have anxiety, generally. I've been having suicidal thoughts before because of all of these things. So they really, they all go hand in hand. And they can get so deep if you don't address them, and cause other problems and cause even like physical problems.

0:27:47.5 KF: One time, I thought I was having a heart attack after my breakdown in college. And so I had to go and do EKG testing. So I thought I was having heart attack.

0:27:57.8 DB: I've been there.

0:27:58.5 KF: Yeah, it's like if you're having these things, there's something wrong and let's get help, because it's available, and it's great. When I went to the BYU Health Center and they just gave me the medication. And there wasn't, as I remember, not really a discussion about other options. I think a lot of us do want just like, "Okay, give me the drugs, and I'll be fine." We don't wanna put in the work and put in the time.

0:28:25.8 KF: Because we're so busy too, in the church. We're so busy. We have all these callings, and we have our kids, and we have this, and the school, and all the jobs. And it's like, "When do I have time to go to a therapist? When am I gonna do that?" But it's so...

0:28:39.3 DB: We need an immediate solution.

0:28:41.4 KF: Yeah, we want the immediate solution. And the medication is great. It helps kind of take it down a notch, at least for me, and I don't know for you if you're on anything. But being in therapy just helps you understand why and what it really is, and how you can behaviourally take care of it and get better, and when it comes up in other areas, you recognize it more, than just taking a medication.

0:29:09.0 KF: It really, yeah, therapy is so important. And it's so hard to get, for some people. It's hard to find the right therapist. It's hard to get an appointment with a therapist. These are things that are also obstacles, that are huge, yeah.

0:29:22.3 DB: And one... And you addressed this in the book very well. I have so many questions. This is such an exciting topic for me, so let me organize my thoughts here. Because you brought up this and you talk about this in the book really well too. It's one thing to find a therapist and to find a therapist who really knows how to address this.

0:29:41.9 KF: Yes.

0:29:42.2 DB: But before... Before I ask that question, I wanna talk about the nuance around this. And one of the things that really prevents, I believe, prevents us from, at least in the church community, that... Recognizing we need help. Is, what we perceive is the spiritual... And I'm curious, 'cause I don't remember you talking about this in the book, or at least bringing it up, is what we perceive as the spiritual reward we get when we are following our scrupulosity.

0:30:15.8 DB: I often hear people will say, "Are you telling me this is a mental illness? When I read for two hours a day, I pray repetitiously. I feel closer to the Lord." That.

0:30:31.0 KF: Right. "You're telling me that's wrong?" Yeah.

0:30:34.2 DB: How do we... Is that something you experienced? And if you did, how did you address it?

0:30:40.9 KF: Yeah, it is something that is so hard. And I've been doing research for a different project about generational differences in worship. And so I was reading articles, and there's actually, they're doing experiments, and they actually use LDS people, which I thought was great for these experiments, about... Neuroscientists and neurologists are doing this, about how our brain reacts to religion. I read this article, it's called Your Brain on God. And this doctor...

0:31:13.3 DB: Great article out of University of Utah.

0:31:16.6 KF: Yeah, yeah, and just basically how our brain over, probably over the thousands of years since we came up with religion, our brains have become... Yeah, religion helps. It turns on different parts of our brain, like the responses for pleasure. Like cause and effect. We're like, "Oh yeah." So we pray and we feel better about it. And it's literally hard-wired into our brain to feel that way now with religious experiences. Especially for LDS people, apparently.

0:31:47.4 KF: So yeah, if you talk about God or something in the experiment, and you probably know as well as I do, but yeah, they were happier. And so it really is part of our brain. But it's just like a drug where you can get addicted to that in a way. And that sounds awful, right? Probably people will be like, "Oh, you can't say you're addicted to religion, it's not bad, it's good."

0:32:13.3 KF: But God also says moderation in all things, and for the average person, average LDS individual, I don't think He wants us praying two hours a day or reading two hours of Scriptures a day. There's so many... He wants us to be with our family and enjoying the Earth and being good examples out of our own home. So it's hard. It's really... [chuckle] I don't know if I answered any question. But it's hard, yeah.

0:32:39.4 DB: It is hard. You did. And actually, that research, I'm glad you brought it up because it's one that I've written about and we talked a lot about, you bring it up, it's like a drug. It actually shows something quite the opposite, and this is what I mean. We've been doing a lot of brain scans around people who are behaviourally addicted to pornography or these other things, forms of media.

0:33:08.5 DB: And they found that this brain response of studying the Scriptures and following the leaders or reading quotes from the prophets, lit up the brain in a similar way as those who look at porn. And so what we've been identifying, what some of the best researchers have been identifying, is there's something else going on that's beyond this chemical addiction.

0:33:32.4 DB: Which is not like a drug, actually. It's what we are creating in our belief system, what we're expecting to receive from it. And so, what we're identifying is we need to redefine how we experience those relationships. So I think you actually did answer the question, is I don't need to read three hours a day to have this feeling of closeness with the Lord. I can create this in a way that's pleasing to Him, in a way that's more appropriate for me.

0:34:09.3 KF: Right.

0:34:09.8 DB: Does that make sense?

0:34:10.8 KF: Yes, more is not always better, you know?

0:34:13.7 DB: Correct.

0:34:15.8 KF: Yeah, it's interesting, and I read this book, I'm trying to see if I have it here on myself. About George Albert Smith, with the prophet and how he, basically his... Youu know, he had mental illness, mental health problems, but they didn't really diagnose it 'cause he was back in the...

0:34:37.1 DB: I love this example.

0:34:38.6 KF: Yeah, and reading it, I was like, "Oh, he has anxiety obviously, and probably obsessive-compulsive disorder." And they tried to do ridiculous things to the poor man, like, "You have to live outside in the back cottage, "or all these just crazy things, "You have to take time off from being an apostle," and all of these things.

0:34:58.0 KF: And I just, it helped me feel better about my own problems 'cause I'm like, "Okay, even the prophet had this." And I think it allowed him to be more empathetic when he became prophet, he was prophet right after World War II. And so I think having those experiences and having the mental health problems that he did, I think it made him the prophet he needed to be for that time period, even though it was awful and he didn't have the correct treatment because they didn't have it then really.

0:35:29.5 KF: But to know like, "Okay, it can be a blessing in some ways," like you said. It could be awful too. And so it is awful, but it can help us learn empathy and learn different skills that the Lord can then use to help the Kingdom. I don't know.

0:35:49.0 DB: I believe it was George Albert Smith, 'cause as I was telling you offline, I've done such extensive research, sometimes stories cross, so I hope I'm remembering correctly, and I find it was a missed opportunity when we're studying him as a prophet, that they didn't include that in the material. And how he would actually isolate himself in California for months at a time, to escape it all and to recover. What a benefit that would be to here as a church community. I think... And I have no idea. I am...

[overlapping conversation]

0:36:22.1 KF: Needed to do that for his mental health. Yeah.

0:36:25.1 DB: Yes. And I don't wanna pretend I know what the leadership is thinking when they develop this material, but maybe my only guess is maybe they don't want us to have a negative light on George Albert Smith. But I don't know. I thought that would be... So when I teach that lesson that I sometimes get asked to teach, I make sure I include that. It's like, oh my goodness, isn't he more relatable now? Isn't it make you feel good?

0:36:53.8 KF: Yeah. I even think about Christ when He had to go and He would go up into the mountains and pray by Himself, I'm like, "Yeah, I relate to that needing to get away from all of the people and all the things going on around you, and just have the solitude." I'm like, "Yeah, I can relate to that." Or just being asleep in the boat and, "Go take care of it yourselves." [chuckle] Solve the problem on your own.

0:37:17.4 DB: Absolutely.

0:37:18.5 KF: I think it does, it humanizes everyone, these leaders. And just, you know, the thing is, it's sad, but like you said, there's such a negative perception of mental illness, not just in the church, but everywhere. And so end of therapy and things like that, and people think, "Well, I'm not being good enough, or I'm not praying enough if I'm depressed." If you're unhappy, you're just not being a good enough Latter-day Saints.

0:37:52.5 KF: And you hear that a lot, like, "You just have to pray it away, or fast more or pull up your bootstraps." And it's...

0:37:58.0 DB: Correct.

0:38:00.9 KF: That's not the right way to deal with this. I think it's hard to change that demographic of the church and of society, that thinks that like mental illness is a personal weaknesses. Because it's not. It's not a sin, it's not a weakness. It's a real thing, just like if you had cancer or if you had endometriosis or whatever. It's a real illness.

0:38:29.0 DB: But to your earlier point, I'm gonna come back to that other question, is when we do seek help... So let's step out of even the LDS community right now, let's talk about the medical community. So I'm putting the pieces together myself over the years and I had a nervous breakdown, oh, I don't remember the year now, it might have been around 2006 or 7, and I thought I was...

0:38:57.2 DB: So your story about heart attack hit home for me because I remember checking myself in, and thought I was dying. At that time, I was also 265 pounds, and so I thought I was prime heart attack whatever, and I checked myself in and they did all the tests and they're like, "You're fine."

0:39:19.6 DB: I said, "I am not fine." And they looked at me like I was crazy, like, "Get out of here." It felt like it was more just they were protecting themselves from liability to keep me there, and I was of course feeling a lot of shame like, "I don't understand. I am... " You can't even describe. People who have had a severe panic attack understand. And that's what it ended up being.

0:39:50.1 DB: But there was no... No one sat me down and said, "Look, what we believe is happening here and how we think we can help this... " I realise it was an emergency urgent care facility, but that also goes to the point. Our society, we're now in 2020, and even with me having a nervous breakdown last year in 2020, the help and the insight...

0:40:15.8 DB: And I'm a mental health therapist and I was struggling to identify what was happening, and it's always harder when it's happening to you, but to be able to identify it and to get the help, it's just like, "Here, take this Klonopin or whatever. Let's just calm you down and get you home."

0:40:33.6 DB: And then, as you talked about in the book, and this is where my next question is, is how? It's one thing to identify that you may have a problem and then another to find a therapist who really knows how to deal with this. And as a therapist, I struggle to find people who are adequately trained to refer people to. What was your process? And I know you brought it up a little bit in your book, but how did you find the right therapist for you?

0:41:06.8 KF: Yeah, luck, really. [chuckle] No, but...

0:41:10.3 DB: It's true.

0:41:11.2 KF: It's true, it's true. I was having this... At the time, it was contamination OCD, I got really bad. And my husband was like, "This is not normal. You need help." And I was like, "No, no, I'm fine, I can do... I am a strong person, I don't need help." And he was like, "No, you need help."

0:41:32.9 KF: So I was really blessed with a husband who was really supportive and had a family with mental illness, and so he could recognize this and not take "no" for an answer really. He was like, "No, you need help." So I was like... I was too involved or too emotionally upset to even call doctors.

0:41:55.6 KF: Which, a lot of people are at that point, when you're going through a breakdown, you can't. You're not like, "Okay, let me go research all the different doctors that I could go to." No, you're having a breakdown. So I was lucky, he started calling the doctors. It was to the point where he was even calling the in-care, yeah, people like, "Can she come in and stay there?" and they're like, "No, we're full," or, "Oh, no, we don't have any appointments for two months." And he's like, "This is not... We need something now."

0:42:23.1 KF: And so he called someone, a doctor in Seattle. We were living on an island in the Puget Sound at the time, near Seattle, but he called the doctor in Seattle and he's like, "My wife's having a really hard time with this," and he's like, "Well, we have a group session tonight that she could come to. And I have a cancellation the next day too for an appointment."

0:42:48.4 KF: So it was just totally random that he called this doctor that day at that time and the cancellation. So I was very lucky, I was very lucky. I went to the group and that's when I was like, "Oh yeah, this is what I have." And then, yeah, I went to him for the appointment and he told me, "Go to your GP, general doctor and get on medication for now, because it will help you in the meantime to calm down. And then we'll work on the therapy once you can... You're well enough that you can actually do the exposure therapy and do the things that you need to do."

0:43:32.3 KF: So I went to my other doctor, got on medication, then I went home for Christmas to my parent's house with our family. And I was suicidal, having suicidal thoughts because of everything.

0:43:46.1 DB: Yeah.

0:43:46.3 KF: So I was like, "I can't go back," to this island where we lived 'cause I was like, "It's dirty, and contamination." And so we flew home and drove to Portland and started looking at houses down there to move, because we were building a house on Vashon Island, but we were like, "We need something better in the meantime that's closer to therapy," because I didn't wanna take a ferry and then drive a half hour to go to the therapist every week. I was like, "That is a two-hour commute, it's too much."

0:44:18.3 KF: So we were lucky enough that we could do that, and we bought a house down near Portland. And so I came back to my therapist and I'm like, "We're moving," and he's like, "What? What are you doing?" I'm like, "No, we need to move, various reasons." And so he said, "Well, I have a friend down there, another therapist in Portland, and I will transfer you over there." And so I was like, "Oh, great." He's like, "He's me, but in Portland."

0:44:43.2 KF: So I was like, "Okay, that's fine, that's great." So I moved down there and I met with him, and he was great. He was like... We hit it off even better than I did with the one in Seattle. And I don't know, we just, I met with him every week at first and was able to make progress on the things that we're really bad. We started with the contamination, which is really the one that was awful for me.

0:45:05.6 KF: And then once that was kind of under control, then he looked and said, "Okay, now, what else? What else is the OCD touching?" And then we were able to go to the scrupulosity or the hitting around OCD, or whatever, there's all these different sub-types. But it was just a luck, and so I feel really lucky that I had that experience. It's been really hard to...

0:45:28.3 KF: Now, I didn't... I stopped going to see him once I was better, and I was like, "Oh, I'm doing so well with this whole behavioral therapy, I know what to do now, this is great." I'm like, "I'm gonna go off my medication, I'm not... I don't need to see my therapist very much, I know what I'm doing now." And I had a total breakdown while I was writing the book, total...

0:45:57.3 DB: Wow.

0:45:58.0 KF: Right back where I was basically. And I'm like, "What it's going on? I know what I'm supposed to do." Like you, you're a therapist, you're like, "I know the tools but I can't use them myself. What is going on?" And my friend that had to come and she checked me...

0:46:13.5 DB: Let me pause you for a second. Let me pause for a second, 'cause I think this is important to emphasize to those people who don't experience this, when they're trying to be loving and supportive, that there... One of the things I discovered, really quick, I understand all the concepts, techniques and tools with grounding with mindfulness, but when your brain gets into a place of ruminating, no amount of grounding, mindfulness, breathing techniques... Now, help.

0:46:47.6 DB: And I wanna say that with a caveat, I'm not saying that, "It's not gonna be helpful. Don't do it." You definitely do it. I'm not saying don't do it. But when you're loving network, your family, your support system is getting frustrating, saying, "Aren't you doing this?" Or, "You need to do this." I think it's important for them to remember, because it may help you and get you into a good place, it does help us, but it's not the solution, and it's probably not as effective as it may be for you. Is that your experience?

0:47:27.2 KF: Yeah, for me it was like, yeah, I knew what I should be doing, but I was like, "No." I think it was pride too. I don't wanna have to go back to the therapist and tell them I failed. I know what I should be doing, but I just I can't do it. My brain, it was just like, "No, no."

0:47:47.7 DB: So you couldn't even get there, your brain wouldn't even let you do it?

0:47:51.8 KF: Yeah. I had a friend, the friend who had OCD and that I mentioned earlier, and she was like, "I'm taking you to the hospital." Because I would tell her things about going on a walk, "I could just walk out into traffic right now, it wouldn't matter." She's like, "I'm taking it in to the hospital 'cause that is not normal thoughts to have."

0:48:12.8 KF: And so I went and they gave me some drugs. And then the next day I went to my doctor and got back on medication. No, it's hard, and I think it's... Even now, I'm not going to the therapist regularly, and I'm like, "Oh, I don't need to go to the therapist," but I should, I should. Not every week, but I should check in once a month or once every three months. The accountability is important.

0:48:44.1 KF: And that's what keeps me on track, I'm on medication again, still, and that's keeping me fine, but if something happened, something major, I would probably have another... I would probably go back to the same spot. It's really hard. It's a constant, it's a life-long...

0:49:03.2 DB: Understood.

0:49:04.1 KF: Yeah, and medication doesn't always work as well as it used to, and so you have to have these tools in your toolbox and recognize like, "Okay, I can't do this on my own."

0:49:17.2 DB: I wanna be respectful of your time. I have many thoughts and questions. Are you okay if we go beyond the hour?

0:49:22.9 KF: Yeah. It's fine.

0:49:24.6 DB: And what you don't really address in the book is how this affected your intimate relationship with your husband. And not just sexually, but connection in all of it. Are you comfortable in explaining that?

0:49:43.8 KF: For sure. I mean, I laugh because I remember these instances, and to me they were like, "Oh my gosh," like life and death. But now I'm like, "What was I doing?" But when I had the contamination OCD, he would take the laundry downstairs or something, let's say, and I always say, "You have to go wash your hands." He was like, "Why." 'Cause you touched a dirty laundry, and he was like, "I'm not gonna do that," and I'm like "then you're not gonna sleep in the bed tonight."

0:50:12.3 KF: And he's like, "What?" "No, you have to sleep on the couch unless you wash your hands." And he's like, "What are you talking about?" Things like that or even just touching, he would go by and pat me on the bum or something, and I'd be like, "What are you doing? Don't touch me, don't touch me there!" He was like "What? What's the problem?"

0:50:34.7 KF: These little things that are natural husband and wife things, I'm like, "Whoa!" I'm thinking, "This is wrong, this is... You're dirty, this is awful." And yeah, even sex, I was like, "Whoa, this is dirty. We can't." It was very like, we have to have it on a certain sheet, or have sex in a certain time, or what... I take off my garments, my underwear, I have to pull them and put them in a spot, put them on like a Kleenex 'cause they're dirty. And it really ruins the the moment.

0:51:09.3 KF: He used to be like, "Oh my gosh, what are you doing?" Or if you touch anything, you have to go wash your hands. Yeah, it really does affect your intimacy and your relationship with your spouse, because in your mind, you're like, "This is totally logical. And this is what I have to do to maintain my sanity." And to them, they're like, "What is going on? This is not okay."

0:51:34.7 KF: So yeah, it's really hard on spouses. And children too. I was like, "I'm not gonna color with my kids 'cause they touched the markers and maybe they didn't wash their hands after they went to the bathroom." So I'm not gonna color with them. Or I'm not gonna sit on the floor with them because the floor is dirty or... You know, just all of these things would factor into it. It changed my whole relationship with my whole family. Yeah.

0:52:00.1 DB: So with... Because my group is focused on intimacy specifically, what do you do now?

0:52:09.5 KF: Yeah.

0:52:11.2 DB: Do you feel like sex is now pleasurable for you, or? I guess I made an assumption. It sounds like sex was not a pleasurable experience before?

0:52:17.6 KF: No. No, it was kind of like a...

0:52:18.7 DB: Do you feel like it is now?

0:52:20.6 KF: You know, it's not totally better. I have tried to be better about it, but there's still... It becomes a habit when you do these things often enough. And so even without thinking about it, I'm like, "Okay, we're gonna move over to your side of the bed if we're gonna have sex, because I don't wanna get my side dirty." Like, still. [chuckle]

0:52:43.6 KF: And I try...

0:52:44.0 DB: I'm glad you can laugh about it.

0:52:45.6 KF: I try not to be obvious about it, but I'll scoot over or whatever. Or I'll be like... I'll look like where he puts the underwear when... [chuckle] Like, "Okay, is it in a good spot? Okay, we're good." Because we've talked about it. We were interviewed for Vice on this topic, OCD and Intimacy. So you can look that up.

0:53:10.7 DB: We'll include the link.

0:53:12.4 KF: It was really good, actually. He was in the conversation obviously. It was like couples therapy, just talking it out. And him saying, "Okay, this bothers me when you do this." And I was like, "Really?" So I think couples need to be able to open up to each other about that, about sex, and what are problems or issues that each person has, because it's really healthy actually.

0:53:37.8 KF: And I think we don't talk about it at church 'cause we're like, "That is a private thing. I'm Mormon and I can't do this and we can't talk about it. Or we can't use sex toys." Or whatever people think. Because we don't talk about it, we have all these assumptions of what we can and can't do, I think. Or should and shouldn't do. But really, is that even like a thing? I don't know.

0:54:02.1 KF: Like using sex toys, I was like, "I cannot. No, we don't do this." He's like, "No, it's fine." So these are things that we've had to work on and still work on, but talking about it and being open about it with some random stranger actually really helped us to come to terms and to be like, "Okay, you know, we need to be better at this. Or I need to be better at it and not let the OCD take over that." And be okay with having pleasure.

0:54:28.9 DB: Again?

0:54:30.6 KF: Yeah. With... You know, it's okay...

0:54:33.3 DB: Yes.

0:54:33.7 KF: If you feel good about this. Which for some reason I never did. Well, you know.

0:54:39.1 DB: You bring it up again.

0:54:40.6 KF: Yeah.

0:54:41.3 DB: Yeah, it's interesting because it's, again, the taboo and the somehow... Someone predefined we're not supposed to talk about certain things. Like my wife was just telling me she was at book club and they brought up Emily Nagoski, one of Emily Nagoski's books, which is great, about female pleasure. And one of the people says, "Let's do that for our book club." And she was excited, she says, "It's changed my relationship for the better."

0:55:09.3 DB: And the response... Again, I'm not criticizing anybody, I wasn't there, but the immediate, the automatic response was like, "No, gross, we don't talk about that thing." And it's like, oh, we're feeding the problem, we're feeding the problem. And we're not allowing ourselves to identify, "Well, I know I can have pleasure, but I'm not allowed to talk about it."

0:55:32.8 KF: Yeah.

0:55:33.1 DB: And if we don't talk about it, how do we learn about it? I mean, it's...

0:55:38.1 KF: How do we learn... How do we even know, yeah, what it is. What, yeah. No, exactly.

0:55:42.8 DB: Even like with sex toys, it's like, "Yes, absolutely." So has that been a helpful thing for you? Has incorporating tools, I like to call them sex tools. [chuckle] "Toys" makes it sound... Which, there's nothing with saying "toys".

0:56:00.1 KF: Yeah, no.

0:56:00.1 DB: But for therapeutic mind, it's like it's a tool, it's to help you. [chuckle]

0:56:02.5 KF: No, and it has. And just... My husband wasn't always active at church, and so I was not his first sexual partner, we'll say. And I was very worried about that at first. This is like, "I don't know anything about this, and I could be very bad and he would know." 'Cause I'm not the only person he's been with.

0:56:25.6 KF: So then I was also like, "Oh well, this is just because you weren't always active at church, so that's why it's okay to do... You think it's okay to do these things?" But no, it's fine. And yeah, the tools have been very helpful and... But it has taken me a while to be like okay with it, or to be okay with doing it myself...

0:56:47.5 DB: Yes.

0:56:49.0 KF: When he's... Things like that, having pleasure. Like, is it...

0:56:52.9 DB: Has that been helpful for you, allowing you to be in your own space and to...

0:56:58.0 KF: Yeah.

0:56:58.0 DB: Does that help manage your anxiety so that you don't feel like you're having to perform for anybody, just yourself?

0:57:04.1 KF: Yeah, yeah. You know, and I... Yeah, I always used to be like, "Okay, well," when he's done, then it's like, we're done. But now I'm like, "No, now it's my turn." And so we'll use the tool. And we'll use the tool, and it's...

0:57:16.6 DB: Toy is fine. [chuckle]

0:57:18.3 KF: You know, it really has helped to be like, "You know, this is... It's not just for him that this needs... This is for pleasure. I should also enjoy this." And it can be really stress-reducing as well for me, and not just a stressful occasion like, "Okay, I have to be good for him," and then he gets his pleasure, and then we're done. It's not just a one-way thing. We're not the tool, the women. We also deserve to have pleasure.

0:57:50.4 DB: Yes. Yes.

0:57:51.8 KF: That's something that took so long for me to realise. And also to even allow myself to get to that point of orgasm. My body was always just like, "No, no, no, no, no, no. I can't lose control," 'cause of my mental illness and my health. "I have to always be in control. I can't not know what's gonna happen." And so you had just to being able to let that go.

0:58:15.5 DB: The way you just phrased that there...

0:58:17.3 KF: Yeah.

0:58:17.9 DB: The way you just phrased that, "I can't let myself lose control." I have heard that from many, many women in counseling. That they feel like when they're on the verge of orgasm, they're losing control. I clearly can't identify as a woman in what you're experiencing. But that was a very triggering word or phrase for you.

0:58:41.5 DB: As I'm listening, I'm thinking, "Oh my goodness." And I wanna be careful, I don't wanna do a broad stroke of scrupulosity across everyone who may have experienced it that way. But that does sound like possibly a symptom of, "I'm losing control."

0:59:00.0 KF: Yeah.

0:59:00.1 DB: "What's gonna happen here?" What do you think?

0:59:02.5 KF: I think it is. I think... No, I think you're right. And I think, I don't know. Yeah, I was just like, "I can't... " It's very real even every time really. I'm like, "Okay." You have to make a decision like, "It's okay. It's okay to not be in control."

0:59:18.2 DB: Experience it.

0:59:18.5 KF: Experience it, yeah. And then you get past that, and you're like, "Oh, okay. This is what they're talking about." [chuckle] But if you don't get past that point, you never get past that point, and you don't realise what's on the other side of it. And so, yes, it's a huge thing, and it can be so good for women.

0:59:39.8 KF: I was reading a book about hormones for women. It's called the Hormone Cure, and it talks about that, too. That women need to have this time where they're just massaged there. It's really helpful actually for our mental health. I was like, "Oh, okay." And I was telling my husband, he's like, "I'll do that. That's great. Like I will help you with that whenever you want, we'll have our massage time."

1:00:09.9 KF: But just realizing it's not bad. I think so much in church we're taught like, "This is bad." Because just growing up, it's like, "It's bad, bad, bad, until you're married, and then it's great and fine. But we're not gonna talk about it, or what you do, or what it's supposed to feel like. At all."

1:00:21.7 DB: Exactly.

1:00:23.6 KF: It's not helping.

1:00:24.0 DB: A very good point.

1:00:24.9 KF: It's not helping to be like that. To have it be such a taboo, and then suddenly it's fine. Our brains can't really process that. It takes...

1:00:34.2 DB: That's... One of the hardest things for me to communicate with people who I'd only, I wouldn't diagnose as having scrupulosity. It's just a general, cultural belief is, "Once you get married, everything's okay. " No, it's not. The exception is not the rule. I'm not gonna throw a percentage out there, I have no idea. But I have yet to see that be the case where, "Yes, marriage is now, you get to... "

1:01:04.4 KF: Do it.

1:01:05.4 DB: "You understand your body, and you're experiencing the full benefits of it."

1:01:09.4 KF: No. No, not at all. Yeah, I'm like, "I don't know. I don't know what's down there." My husband's like, "What? What are you doing?" [chuckle]

1:01:18.4 DB: And you're not alone. We now have family discussions.

1:01:24.1 KF: Prudish.

1:01:24.7 DB: Yeah.

1:01:25.0 KF: Like, "I didn't know." Yeah.

1:01:28.6 DB: It's such a blessing, we have family discussion. Now I have three girls, and they're all married. And one of the most... Believe it or not, it's one of the most... What's the word I'm looking for? Not humble, but I'm proud. It feels so good when we're even at the dinner table, just us family, and we're talking about, in a very appropriate way but very open, about marital sex, and what it looks like, and how we can improve.

1:01:56.2 DB: We're not crossing boundaries or anything. Well, people might be listening who say, "You've already crossed a boundary." No, the fact that we can openly discuss, that is a good thing. That, "Oh, you know what, have you considered this? This may help." All of our bodies are different, and we go through phases.

1:02:12.7 DB: You talked about having an hysterectomy in your book. My wife has had a hysterectomy, that changes the body dramatically. What does sex look like after a hysterectomy? No one talks about that. And now, we do.

1:02:27.0 KF: We should, yeah. Because it's such an important part of our lives. And not in a gross way, but we think of it like, "Ooh." I know especially probably women who've grown up LDS, who are just like, "Ooh, you don't talk about that. That's not okay." Like you wife's book club like, "Ooh, no, we're not gonna do that." But...

1:02:48.7 DB: "I'll do it in private in my closet where no one sees me."

1:02:51.3 KF: Yeah, "I won't tell anyone."

1:02:52.4 DB: Maybe.

1:02:52.6 KF: Yeah, and I had a... My former sister-in-law, who's since divorced, but she was very open with these things. And so, after we got married, she's like, "Okay, what's gong on?" They let us use their hotel room right after we got married, before we went on our honeymoon. [chuckle]

1:03:09.4 KF: They're very...

1:03:10.3 DB: Cool.

1:03:10.8 KF: Very open. She's very open. So she's like, "Yeah, use the tools, this helps so much." And I was like, "What, we can? We're allowed to do that?" And she's like, "Yes." I'm like, "Okay." So just having people be open about it, really changed my view like, "Okay, other people are doing this, it's not just in the dark or sneaking around. You can't do this anymore."

1:03:32.4 DB: Absolutely. So I wanna be respectful of your time, and I have so many thoughts and questions. And maybe someday we'll have you back. I'm excited to hear the reception on this podcast. But the final question maybe I have for today is, this is a difficult experience, like we were talking at the beginning. How... First of all, how do recognize that this is an issue? And then, how can family best support us?

1:04:03.9 DB: What would you recommend that people can do? What is the best way to... I realise there's a broad experience here. One, being able to identify you have a problem. But let's take it from a place of... Well, you're welcome to go with it wherever you want, but I'm thinking specifically, how does a spouse help you now? How do they best support you?

1:04:28.8 KF: Yeah, that is, it's really difficult with OCD. First of all, they need to research it themselves and understand what's going on. If you're going to therapy, have them come with you to a session and talk to the therapist about, "Okay, what should I do in these situations?"

1:04:49.1 KF: Because we look to our spouses a lot of times for reassurance, which is a compulsion too. "Are my pants dirty? Can you look? Can you tell me if they're dirty or not?" And if they're like, "No, you're fine." "Okay I'm fine." For five minutes or something. And then you ask again, "Are you sure?" And as they provide that reassurance they're just really making the OCD worse. Even though we're like, "No, it feels better." It's really, it's not good.

1:05:16.2 DB: They're enabling it.

1:05:17.1 KF: It's enabling it, yeah. And they have to understand that that is... That is a bad thing to do. You think you're supporting your spouse, you're helping, you're helping them by saying, "No, you're okay, you're fine." But really that is, that is not what they should be doing, it seems counter-intuitive. I think if the spouse knows that also and doesn't say, "I'm not allowed to tell you." But, "What would your therapist say about that? What do you think... "

1:05:41.0 KF: We call him Dr. Bob, my therapist. "What would Dr. Bob say? Would he want me to tell you that?" I'm like, "Oh okay." "It's not that I don't love you, it's just this is for your own good." You have to stand up sometimes to the person who has OCD if you're the spouse. Which can be really difficult. But as long as they understand that that's what you're doing. [chuckle] You're not just being a jerk. That's important too.

1:06:08.2 DB: Do you have some sort of plan? Or did you... You both discuss possible solutions or approaches. You come up with it beforehand, so that doesn't feel so abrupt or whatever in the moment?

1:06:20.5 KF: Yeah.

1:06:20.8 DB: Okay.

1:06:21.3 KF: "Okay, I'm not gonna get you reassurance anymore." I'm like, "Okay. This is... It's your deal, you'll have to do this." And so yeah, just being really supportive. Supporting going to therapy. It can be hard. Especially if you have little kids. Who's gonna watch the kids? My husband was really supportive.

1:06:40.5 KF: Luckily he worked from home, so we were lucky. But he would sometimes... I was like, "Mum, come over and babysit." Or something when I had to go to therapy, because he knew it was important. Not demeaning your spouse for getting help, which I see sometimes. Husband's like, "Oh you don't need therapy."

1:06:56.6 DB: Oh absolutely.

1:06:58.2 KF: No support that. Support them getting the help that they need. Yeah, don't just say, "Oh stop. Just get better. Make yourself think what you're supposed to." You can't do that, you can't force yourself out of a mental illness. So I think just the support for spouses and parents. And knowledge. Like my mum, she read a book about how, supporting your loved one with OCD.

1:07:25.2 KF: What is his name? Hershfield has a great book about that, family members and OCD. If they read those books it's... I would see her reading that, and it's. "Oh that's so... " She's trying to help me. And it will help them. Don't make jokes about it. My dad would still send me stupid jokes like, "Oh, I'm so OCD." I'm like, "Dad." You know? [chuckle] So yeah, just be supportive and understanding what they're going through.

1:07:57.4 DB: I love it, thank you. Kari, this has been such a pleasure, and I wish I had discovered you when you first wrote it. This is...

1:08:06.0 KF: I know. I'm an introvert. I didn't publicise as well as I should have. [chuckle]

1:08:09.9 DB: Oh, that's quite alright. It's more I'm disappointed that our community... And maybe it's just me, maybe I wasn't aware. Maybe it was being talked about a lot and I just didn't pick up on it. But I wanna, I wanna the remind the audience, listeners, this is a real thing. Scrupulosity is a real thing.

1:08:27.9 DB: Scrupulosity is so hard to detect because it's not as apparent as traditional OCD, if I could call it that. You don't see somebody washing their hands 50 times a day. While Kari, that's also part of your mental health issues, is...

1:08:44.4 KF: Yeah, I was there. [chuckle]

1:08:45.6 DB: Contagion and whatnot. A lot of what I see is an absence of traditional OCD. It's spiritual OCD, which is scrupulosity, and it is a very real thing. I guess maybe in summary, if you're concerned or think, "Okay, do I have this?" Some things I have noticed, at least with people, clients that I've worked with, is when you feel like you have to go and routinely repent to get that good feeling again, that's a good indicator that you may be dealing with scrupulously.

1:09:20.4 DB: If you don't feel like you could have or build that relationship with the Lord and create those feelings on your own, that you need that mediator. That's not an absolute statement, definitely there's a role that leadership takes. But if you find, often I hear what people will say, "I think I need to go clear this again. Maybe I didn't tell them everything."

1:09:41.7 DB: Or, "I repented, but oh my goodness I need to go... " I see this with missionaries too, and it sometimes is created in the mission field where you're living this righteous... I wanna be careful with that word.

1:09:53.7 KF: Exactness.

1:09:55.6 DB: Exactness. I won't equate it to righteousness. We create this rigidity that gives this reward for living in the rigid life. Again, I'm emphasizing the rigidity isn't necessarily problem, it's how we're defining that relationship with the Lord and requiring that... That act to create it. I wish there was a better definition of it, but it is prevalent.

1:10:21.9 DB: And if you're concerned about it, pick up Kari's book, and study and research those topics. Her book is excellent. But even you mentioned in the book, a lot of what your, where your help came from is you personally doing the research and finding the right therapist eventually, was helpful. There is hope, there is help. And reach out, ask questions. Thank you so much, Kari.

1:10:52.8 KF: You're very welcome. Thanks for talking to me. [chuckle]

[music]

Full Transcript:

0:00:00.7 Narrator: Welcome to Improving Intimacy, a podcast to help single and married Latter Day Saints strengthen their family connections and marriages. Daniel A. Burgess is the host of Improving Intimacy. Daniel's a marriage and family therapist, father, husband and author. Here's Daniel on this episode of Improving Intimacy.

[music]

0:00:27.0 Daniel A. Burgess: Welcome to another episode of Improving Intimacy. And today we're gonna be continuing the discussion about how to navigate and discuss pornography within the family, between your spouse and your children. On today's episode we have Brett and Shendi, and I look forward to exploring their adventure with this topic. And so, let's turn it over to you guys. Introduce yourself, let us know about some details of your family. What's your status in the church and what your goal is.

0:01:00.9 Brett: I'm Brett Pingel, me and Shendi have been married, twelve years?

0:01:06.5 Shendi: Yeah.

0:01:07.0 Brett: Twelve years now. Just hit 12 years in April. We have four kids, ages from almost 11 to just turned a year.

0:01:18.9 Shendi: Both mostly from Utah, and we're active in church.

0:01:22.6 DB: Good. How old are your children?

0:01:27.8 Brett: Ten, nine, seven, one.

0:01:31.7 DB: Ooh, got them tight together and then you've got the... How many boys, how many girls?

0:01:39.1 Brett: Two and two.

0:01:39.8 DB: Two and two. Two older, two younger?

0:01:42.9 Brett: Boy... Girl, boy, boy, girl.

0:01:46.6 DB: Oh, got it. Alright, great. So they're getting ready to get into their teenage years, are you excited about that?

0:01:52.3 Shendi: Don't remind me.

[laughter]

0:01:57.2 Brett: Not sure I'm ready for a teenager.

0:02:00.5 DB: Yeah, it's, I don't think we could prepare for that. Perfectly, at least. I put out on our Facebook group, Improving Intimacy, a request to find couples who are willing to talk about their journey in discussing pornography and and a few other related topics. You reached out and said that you've had this discussion between each other and you're learning how to navigate that with your children.

0:02:28.0 DB: You've been married for 12 years, and... Tell us a little about that journey. What was it like for you guys? Was it a difficult topic? Did it come naturally? What was your experience?

0:02:41.3 Brett: I think for us it came out pretty early, 'cause I've had my own issues and I guess you could say addiction to pornography that I've dealt with for many years since I was a teenager. I don't know or remember at what point it came out. I'm pretty sure it came out even in the dating process before we ever got married. I think Shendi was aware of it.

0:03:07.6 Shendi: I don't think I realized how much he was into it, not that he was viewing it every day.

0:03:15.7 DB: You're talking about during the dating phase, Shendi?

0:03:18.7 Shendi: Yeah, yeah. When we were dating, I know that he said that he wasn't viewing every day, but I knew that had some addiction to looking at it. And then we just never really discussed it while dating, just that we knew that it was there and that it wasn't... Other than that, it wasn't really discussed until I really, I think I really realized until after we were married. I think within our first year was when is when I'd noticed that he was looking at things.

0:03:49.0 DB: So you're aware of it during the dating. What kept... Shendi, what kept you from exploring it more with him? Was it not a concern to you, or did you feel like it was resolved? What kept you from pursuing that concern or potential concern there?

0:04:07.0 Shendi: There's a lot of addiction in my family. And so, for us, I think it was just kinda I know it's there, but I don't think my family ever really deals with their addiction, on my side. And so, for when I was, what? 17 to 20 years old, we were just dating on and off, I just followed my family's steps of not really ever dealing with addictions or talking about them, just that you know they're there, and that's about it.

0:04:38.8 Shendi: And so, he told me, and I was like, "Okay." And just I left it, and I didn't feel like it was gonna affect me. Until after we got married, then I realized it affected me, in a different way than my family's history of addiction ever affected me.

0:04:54.2 DB: So Brett, when you were dating, do you feel like... If you could put your addiction, if your usage of pornography on a scale of one to 10, one being really just occasional, barely existing, to 10, it's consuming you daily for hours, where would you place yourself?

0:05:14.7 Brett: When we were dating?

0:05:15.9 DB: Yeah, when you were dating.

0:05:17.9 Brett: Maybe a five.

0:05:19.0 DB: A five, okay. And equate that...

0:05:23.1 Brett: It's never been one... I personally have a hard... It's an addiction, but I have a hard time calling it addiction, 'cause it's never consuming.

0:05:32.3 DB: Okay. And it...

0:05:32.9 Brett: I've never felt like, "I have to look, I have to look, I have to look." You know? It's never... It's something that's always there and every now and then I flip through it.

0:05:47.2 DB: So it's impressive that you weren't caught during dating youth, it sounds like you felt impressed or you needed to tell your soon-to-be wife, that this was a problem or... How did that come about?

0:06:01.1 Shendi: Well, we've known each other since we were 15.

0:06:04.2 Brett: Yeah, so we've known each other for a long time, and...

0:06:08.9 Shendi: We were really good friends.

0:06:10.1 Brett: We've always been able to talk.

0:06:12.9 Brett: I think that's the biggest thing for us is we've always had really good communication, and I've always felt like even my darkest secrets, I've been able to tell her.

0:06:24.4 DB: Wow.

0:06:25.0 Brett: And so it was never anything like, "Well, I'm gonna tell you something and you're not gonna like it." Or anything like that. It was always, I guess conversation with us was always really fluid.

0:06:35.2 DB: That's excellent. That's, wow, that's an ability I really encourage a lot of couples to have before they get married. So it was present. If you don't mind, if you're comfortable with sharing, when you say it's a five, how consuming was that? Was that a few minutes a day, once a week? How would you, on average, say, qualify?

0:07:00.1 Brett: Probably once a week.

0:07:00.9 DB: Once a week, okay. And so when you shared it with Shendi and she reacted the way she did, like, "Okay." What were you thinking? Was it like, "Okay, I did my part."? Or what was your experience on your end?

0:07:17.3 Brett: I'm trying to remember back that far.

[chuckle]

0:07:19.2 DB: Yeah, I guess it is a while ago. Really, forgive me. I do like to explore this a little bit because I wanna give people a sense of where they were and what it was like, and I think you may not be surprised, but a lot of people may be resonating with this a lot, like, "Oh my goodness, I was able to be very open, share this information, and it seemed to be the last thing we talked about until we got married." So I kind of wanna provide that to the audience.

0:07:45.0 Brett: Yeah.

0:07:45.4 DB: So if you can, I realize it's 12, 13 years ago, but what do you recall? In fact...

0:07:52.1 Brett: I think for me, there was a level of relief that she wasn't appalled or judgmental towards me. She was really understanding, "Okay, that's... No, I don't necessarily like it, but it is what it is, and I still love you." And for me, it was really relieving that, I guess that it wasn't a deal breaker.

0:08:20.0 DB: That's wonderful. So you get married, and about how long into your marriage, Shendi, did it become an issue? Or did you start to notice signs that, "Okay, this is a problem."? A few months, a year, how long into the marriage?

0:08:36.8 Shendi: I'm just gonna say six months to a year, 'cause we had accidentally gotten pregnant six months into the marriage and my first pregnancy was rather rough, and so I think our sex life had dwindled a little bit.

0:08:55.3 DB: Okay.

0:08:55.7 Shendi: And then we didn't have smartphones or... We had a laptop. We didn't have the smartphones or anything. I think I was going across the laptop one day, trying to remember some website I was looking at, and I'd come across it then. And then I just kind of, I felt really sick to my stomach, and I wasn't sure how to approach it, and then as I looked more, I saw a little bit more and I decided, "All right, I knew this, but I need to approach him about this because he needs to know how I feel about what he's doing."

0:09:29.5 DB: Wow.

0:09:30.0 Shendi: And I think that's the first time I'd realized for me that, "Okay, just because they have an addiction, or just because they have, I guess a problem, it was in our marriage, I don't need to stay silent, I need to at least talk to him 'cause he needs to know how I feel."

0:09:44.8 DB: So what were you feeling? You said disgust or sick, what were you thinking?

0:09:51.4 Shendi: No, I didn't feel disgust towards him. At first, I think I felt really sick to my stomach. I felt kind of like that he was looking at these things instead of coming to me and being honest and saying, "Hey, I need some intimacy." Or, "I'm feeling a little neglected." Or whatever his feelings were at the time.

0:10:17.4 Shendi: I kind of felt, I guess emotionally cheated on mostly, like he was just kinda going somewhere else for something that I could easily or readily give him, but he would choose rather to go somewhere else, and so I felt in a way betrayed as well.

0:10:32.0 DB: Right, right. So how long did it take you to approach him on that? Was it immediate? Or did you wait some time, you pray over it? What was your process in bringing this up with Brett?

0:10:44.1 Shendi: I don't think I prayed about it at all. I think it was more... I think the first time I kind of approached him and I was just like, "Hey," I think about after a week, I was like, "I saw this. What's your deal?" I don't think the first time... I think the first time in our marriage I really was not as patient as he makes me out to be. I think I kind of approached it...

0:11:05.3 DB: Understandable.

0:11:06.2 Shendi: In a hot-headed manner, and I said, "You know, this is not okay, and we need to fix this." He apologized and we had a few words, and then after that, we didn't really discuss it again until I found it again, and then I was like, "Look, we really gonna fix this."

0:11:26.5 Shendi: I think it was within another month that I found more and I just said, "We need to figure this out, 'cause I feel like you're not trusting me with your problem, or you're not wanting to talk to me about when you need certain things or when you want certain things." I think within that first, what? Two months, we really had a lot of discussions about it.

0:11:49.3 Brett: Yeah.

0:11:50.0 DB: Well, that's... I'm loving what I'm hearing, because it sounds like... And I realize we're removed, what? 11 years from that incident. But the way you're even describing it, it seems like you did in fact have patience around it, It doesn't sound like you were attacking him or yelling at him. Or were you? Was there any kind of anger expressed in that fashion?

0:12:14.4 Shendi: I think I cried a lot.

0:12:16.2 DB: Okay.

0:12:16.4 Shendi: I don't think... Did I ever yell at you?

0:12:18.5 Brett: I don't think there was ever really any yelling. It never felt like she was mad.

0:12:24.8 Shendi: More hurt.

0:12:25.8 Brett: She was more hurt, betrayed, things like that, than she was anything else.

0:12:31.6 DB: So from... Brett, from your perspective, did you feel like she was inviting with the conversation? Or did you... 'Cause sometimes spouses will say, "Talk to me, I'm here to talk," but there's still this emotional experience like, "You better not say anything bad about this or that you're doing it again." And so on one hand it's, "Talk to me about it, but there better not be anything new," kind of experience. What was your end of that experience?

0:13:02.6 Brett: No, I never felt... I don't know, I guess... Everything for me, it was always really positive. Like I said, she never really came at me attacking, she never got mad. I could just tell how I hurt she was. And I guess there were probably points where I didn't feel like she really understood what I was going through.

0:13:25.0 Brett: We have had our issues when it comes to intimacy, where I think we've been on different pages in different wavelengths, but at the same time, I never felt I was being attacked either for the issues I was having.

0:13:36.9 DB: That's excellent. Brett, at this point, when you were caught or she found out, how would you compare that usage to prior to your marriage? Would you say it was more than what you were experiencing before the marriage, less or about the same?

0:13:55.6 Brett: I think for a while there, it got worse, prior to the point where it was two or three times a week. But still never where it consumed me, but it did get worse for a period of time.

0:14:08.1 DB: Your wife pointed out that there's intimacy issues. Is that what you would also point that towards? Or what do you think was driving that behavior?

0:14:17.6 Brett: I think the lack of intimacy.

0:14:20.5 DB: So how did you guys start to navigate? Now it's all out on the table, we know this. Shendi is saying, "Hey, talk to me, I keep finding this stuff." How did it proceed from there, where did you guys go with it?

0:14:36.8 Shendi: I think we decided that we were gonna set up boundaries for him, to help him, first off. I think we decided to... He couldn't... I don't know, this might sound rude towards him, but he couldn't look at the laptop after, or get on the computer after certain time of a day. We were able to block certain sites or we put a password and him would...

0:15:03.9 Shendi: So it might sound like I was parenting him, but we both discussed, this is probably the best way for him, was for me to be more in control over the things that he was able to or do not get onto with our computer. And then after we both felt like it calmed down a little bit, we decided we were just gonna discuss more...

0:15:22.2 Brett: We just have more conversations.

0:15:25.0 Shendi: More conversation about it, "Hey, I'm struggling really bad today," and I was like, "Okay, how can we help you?" Or, "Okay, let's remove the laptop for the day," or things like that. You think, yeah?

0:15:39.8 Brett: Yeah.

0:15:40.2 DB: Was that helpful to you, Brett?

0:15:43.3 Brett: I think so. I'd be lying if I didn't say there were times where it felt like I was being controlled or being parented, but at the same time, it was the best thing for me at the time to help us go through a difficult time.

0:16:00.5 DB: I'm glad you...

0:16:01.1 Shendi: And it wasn't...

0:16:02.1 DB: Go ahead.

0:16:03.7 Shendi: Alright, and it wasn't like I... I don't think, in my mind, it wasn't like I was saying, "Well, you can't get on this, this and this time." We would sit down and we would say, "Okay, what's a good time for you not to be on the laptop?" For him to express it. 'Cause like he said, I didn't want to feel like I was controlling him or parenting him. I was his wife, his spouse, I wasn't his mother or babysitter, I guess.

0:16:33.2 DB: I'm glad that you both are pointing this out, that's one of the biggest concerns I have when I work with couples in navigating porn issues, is one becomes the manager in the relationship, and it sounds like you guys took measures to prevent that while also holding some sort of accountability with each other. Is that fair to say?

0:16:54.4 Brett: Yeah.

0:16:54.6 Shendi: Yeah.

0:16:56.1 DB: So how long did this go on, this managing, did it work? And if it did work, how long? And if it didn't, what did you guys end up doing?

0:17:05.1 Shendi: I think it was up until after we had our second son, or our first son, our second child.

0:17:10.4 Brett: Yeah, our second child.

0:17:12.0 Shendi: So probably it was two, two and a half years.

0:17:14.9 Brett: Yeah.

0:17:15.5 DB: Two and a half. So tell me, what that maybe average daily experience was, were you taking the computer away from Brett, or? How did that work logistically?

0:17:26.9 Shendi: He would usually bring it to me. Or I would just take it and I would just put it away. Or we even had a password on it that he didn't know. I think when we did get smart phones, he did ask me and brought me his phone and said, "Please put a password on it." And so I think we just kinda both, I don't think one of us really... After a while, I don't think one of us really took control. I think he realized that I hurt my feelings, and so we both worked on it together. Would you agree, yeah?

0:18:00.6 Brett: Yeah.

0:18:01.5 DB: And so after two and a half years of doing this, what happened then? Did things change, improve, or?

0:18:11.4 Brett: I think that it changed just 'cause I was learning how to... I guess my frequency was diminishing and I was learning how to deal with it better. I was getting to the point where I didn't need as much, I guess babysitting is the best way to put it.

[chuckle]

0:18:30.8 DB: Sure, sure.

0:18:31.5 Shendi: Well, I think our communication even got more better in those two years, because it was something that we were talking about more, and he was open and willing to let me express myself when I did catch other things or... He was willing to just sit there and he was willing to listen, and I was willing to listen to him, and I think we worked more on our communication. Then over time, I think we worked on our intimacy too afterwards, after we communicated more, if that makes sense?

0:19:06.0 DB: Yeah, absolutely, it does. Would you be willing to recall or share how one of those interchanges worked with you? You're bringing it up, how did those discussions work? I'm really liking what I'm hearing in that you listen to each other. That's a very difficult thing for people to do. Especially if you're finding pornography or another incident. How did you learn how to handle that, I guess maturely and as adults?

0:19:36.7 Shendi: I don't know... I don't know if there was ever anything that we learned to do. It's just kind of been, that's always been our relationship. I've always been comfortable talking to Shendi, and she's always been a very understanding person. I mean, I don't know, I guess is not much to say in how we learned, the communication has always just been there, for me.

0:20:06.0 Shendi: I think... I think for me the communication has always been there, but I think for me, it was kind of a lack of... What's the right word? Understanding, or lack of empathy. I don't know. I would find myself sometimes...

0:20:24.4 DB: A lack of empathy from you or from him?

0:20:27.4 Shendi: For him, for his struggles. I think I was not very sensitive towards any of his struggles. Even his daily struggles with work or school, and I found that I was more less empathetic, I guess that's the right way of putting it. And so when I would find those problems, I knew that I should talk about it with him, I knew that I should share my feelings, but I think I was growing increasingly more frustrated, just 'cause I didn't see results. So basically I wanted them.

0:21:02.3 Shendi: And so what I would do is I would... I would... Every time I would say my prayers or my personal prayers, I would just, "Help me to love my husband." And it wasn't that I didn't love him, it was that I needed to learn how to love him in the way that I guess God brought him, not just as my husband, but as my friend and a son of God. And so I would honestly, I would say a prayer, "Help me to love my husband." Then it was in, "Love him in a different way."

0:21:35.2 DB: Tell me more about that different way? What was the different way that you were discovering?

0:21:41.2 Shendi: Well, it was, I loved him and I appreciated him, but I don't think I quite wholeheartedly... I don't know, it's hard to explain. I knew who he was, and I knew that he was my best friend and that I loved him and I wanted the best for him, but I think I would just kind of get irritated.

0:22:07.0 Shendi: I was like, "Okay, well, you're struggling, let's move on. Let's move on." 'Cause it's kinda how I was, I was raised to, "You're struggling, alright you've said it, now move on." And I was like, well, you know, I don't think God ever looked at us and it's like, "Really? Okay, another prayer about your struggle, let's move on." And I'm like, that's not very...

0:22:29.3 Shendi: In the long term, I didn't feel like that was the most sympathetic answer. All of us wanna be heard and all of us wanna be understood, even if it's the same exact thing over and over again. So I felt like I needed to love him in a eternal perspective. Is that the right way how to say it? I don't know.

0:22:48.2 DB: I think you're getting me a little emotional here. The way you're describing this is, Shendi, is the message that I hope a lot of people hear. This is key. It is hard to describe that empathy. It's one thing to say, "I'm your friend, I'm here to talk about it," it's a completely different thing to be able to say, "I want to understand."

0:23:12.0 DB: And the analogy you gave was Heavenly Father doesn't say, "Okay, get on with... Move on." Right" He takes time to understand. I don't know if that necessarily means you need to go into all the nitty gritty and the details of what you're viewing, but... Brett, did you experience that from Shendi on your end? Did you feel like, "Oh my goodness, I'm able to talk about this even more." I know you have an open communication with her, but did you feel that empathy start to be increased in the relationship?

0:23:46.2 Brett: I did, and it's something that we've talked about. I think she's still working on it, even still today. Because there was a point in our relationship where it was like... And not just with my issue with pornography, but like she said, every day where I'd come home and I'd be really upset from work, and she just kind of be like, "Okay, well, you're home now, move on, deal with it."

0:24:08.6 Shendi: Not that I would say that to your face.

[chuckle]

0:24:11.9 Brett: That was kinda the vibe that I would get.

0:24:15.9 DB: Yeah, yeah.

0:24:19.7 Brett: And through our discussions, I've definitely seen a change recently. And over the years, really, not just recently, but there has been a change and I have seen her try to be more understanding and know where I'm coming from, and just wanting to see me be better, in every sense of the word.

0:24:44.6 DB: Was there a point in your relationship, and it sounds like maybe not, but I don't wanna assume it, that Shendi, maybe you said, "Okay, again, this is happening and I can't have this anymore. I'm done."? Was that an experience that you had or considered?

0:25:05.5 Shendi: I think there was a point about, was it four years ago? Where he had lost his job. And so he became quite set back in his old ways, I guess, where he was just struggling, and it was the same conversation or the same maybe argument that we had. And then I would find the porn again, and that would just add on to it.

0:25:31.5 Shendi: And I think we'd hit quite a low point, and I just said, "If this doesn't, you know, if this doesn't get fixed or if we can't discuss this like we used to, then I'm gonna have to be done." And I think it wasn't just necessarily the porn, but I think it was everything else, and then that one just kinda added to it.

0:25:51.4 DB: Yeah. It sounds like it was a really stressful time in your life, and you both were kind of burnt out.

0:26:00.8 Shendi: Yeah.

0:26:00.9 DB: How long ago was that? How many years ago?

0:26:04.5 Brett: That was back in 2013.

0:26:09.0 DB: Okay. About five... What is that now? [chuckle] We're in 2019.

0:26:12.2 Brett: Six years ago.

0:26:13.2 DB: Yeah. Wow.

0:26:15.6 Brett: We had moved to Nevada.

0:26:16.8 Shendi: We just have had a new baby.

0:26:18.6 Brett: Just have had a new baby.

0:26:20.1 DB: Oh my goodness.

0:26:20.4 Brett: You know, I'd been in a job for three months and lost it.

0:26:25.9 DB: This is what we often interview for intake. When we have new clients come in, we check for all these major life events. This is usually why people are coming in, is you had like the big three or four; a move, life-changing event, a baby, loss of job. This was huge, a lot of stress, which...

0:26:48.2 Shendi: Yeah.

0:26:48.2 Brett: Yeah, all at the same time. [chuckle]

0:26:51.5 DB: No wonder. What was nice here though is, I like... Shendi, what you said was, "We need to be able to talk about this like we did before." A lot of couples don't have that experience to fall back on, and so when you hit this major point in your life, in your marriage, if you didn't have those positive experiences, do you... We all hope to think that we would be just as encouraging, but do you feel like if you didn't have those positive experiences to fall back on, you would have been as willing?

0:27:22.5 Shendi: I'm not sure. I mean, we were able to talk once before. And I had always knew that I needed somebody who I really knew before I could marry just because of my personality and things that had happened in my past, I really needed a good friend. And I needed him to be a friend first, before I married him.

0:27:47.8 Shendi: I think if we hadn't have been, I don't think we would have maybe had a strong of a relationship. I think I would have maybe cut off our relationship and not talk to him like I do now.

0:28:02.0 DB: You mean during the dating phase, is that what you mean?

0:28:06.4 Shendi: Yeah. Yeah.

0:28:07.2 DB: Oh, yeah.

0:28:08.5 Shendi: I think because we are friends for a really long time and we learn how to communicate, and then we learn how to communicate even more in our marriage, that helped us later on when we had that big problem. Because I feel like if you don't know how to communicate to yourself and you don't know how to express your feelings, but then your spouse doesn't reciprocate listening or expressing their feelings as well, I think it just leads to shutting off and feeling like maybe the other person doesn't understand or doesn't want to understand.

0:28:45.9 Shendi: And so I think where I already knew that he wanted to understand my feelings and cared about my feelings, that I think it was easier for us to fall back on to what we used to do, where we used to talk a lot.

0:28:58.1 DB: Yeah, that's wonderful. My goodness. You mentioned also that having these discussions helped improve your intimacy. Is that... Did I hear you guys correctly?

0:29:09.4 Shendi: Yeah.

0:29:10.2 DB: How did that help? Being able to... I mean, I don't wanna make the assumption again, just being able to talk openly helps that experience. But here you are dealing with pornography, and what a lot of couples experience is because pornography is mixed into it, it actually makes the intimacy more difficult. How did these discussions allow for it to improve?

0:29:31.9 Brett: I guess having the understanding that I wasn't necessarily choosing the pornography over her. I knew I was able to talk really things with her and really talk about where it was all coming from, and trying to get to a point where she knew that it wasn't me necessarily choosing it over her. I think that's where it improved our intimacy, our ability to talk and things like that.

0:30:04.7 DB: What about you, Shendi? What was it like for you? How did that help improve your side of the intimacy?

0:30:15.5 Shendi: I think that... 'Cause I always kinda had the issues of low self-esteem, like I said before, things that happened to me as a child, and so I think I had a lot of intimacy issues and a hard time for me to realize that maybe he actually did love me or want me. And so when he would communicate to me, "I want you. I need you," or send little text back and forth, I think it helped me realize, "Okay, yeah, he does want me."

0:30:49.8 Shendi: And he was able to communicate that with me more, like he would talk to me more about it, instead of just coming up and hugging on me and kissing me and then he's like, "Okay, let's do this." It was more of a, "Okay. He wants me for more than just having sex," or things like that. So for him to communicate with me to be like, "I do love you, and I do want you," more than just to satisfy the need of wanting to look at pornography, I guess. It was he actually did want me, and it wasn't, pornography wasn't a substitute.

0:31:24.3 DB: You felt that from him?

0:31:27.0 Shendi: Yeah. I felt like, for a long I felt like pornography was a substitute for me. And so in my mind it was he was cheating on me, in my mind, because he was substituting the pornography for me, and then when he would communicate, "I want you and I need you," or "Hey, look, I'm struggling with... I'm really tempted to look at pornography."

0:31:49.2 Shendi: And he would tell me that and it'd be like, "Oh okay, he's not... It's not that he... That we're not having sex right now, it's that he, he's actually struggling with something and he's willing to talk to me about that struggle. And it's not that he's trying to replace me." 'Cause if he was replacing me, I feel like that he would not want to discuss it with me.

0:32:08.4 DB: Yes, yes, yes.

0:32:09.8 Shendi: If it makes sense?

0:32:10.7 DB: Right. Wow, that's a huge paradigm shift to be able to start... To believe his words, "He's flirting with me, he's really wanting me, he's craving me," and believing his words and embracing that. That's a beautiful step forward. Now, these experiences, how have they helped shape your teaching your kids? They're about to enter into their teenage years, got a couple of years on the oldest one there. How has that shaped your conversations with the children?

0:32:43.8 Brett: I think they've allowed us to be a lot more open with our children. I feel, especially in LDS culture, I feel like sex has become very taboo. It's not something that you should ever discuss.

0:33:00.9 Shendi: And talk to your parents. [chuckle]

0:33:02.9 Brett: And so I think these experiences between me and Shendi have really allowed us to be open with our children.

0:33:08.6 DB: And not so shameful towards them.

0:33:11.8 Brett: Yeah. I feel like they can come and tell us, "Hey, I saw a naked person," and they wouldn't feel like we would come down on 'em, shame 'em, things like that. And so I feel like there's just a lot of openness.

0:33:29.4 DB: So how do you handle that with a 10-year-old? What does that open conversation look like? What kind of words do you use or how do you gauge your language with your children on those topics? "I saw a naked person." What do you say next?

0:33:42.9 Shendi: Well, we had an incident, what was it, two years ago, where a friend of our daughter had shown her something on YouTube. I checked the iPads and stuff after they're done playing with them, just so, keep an eye out, 'cause I know that they're happening at such a young age. And I come across some stuff, and I...

0:34:06.7 Shendi: So I just, I went up to her and I mean, just feel be as honest, I don't wanna skirt around it because it's there, and I need to be as honest with her as I possibly can. And so I said, "Is there something you wanna tell me?" And she said, "No," and I said, "Alright." I said, "Well," I said, "I found this."

0:34:26.9 Shendi: And what 10-year-old is honestly wants to say, "Well, I found stuff." And so I said, "I found some things on the iPad that were inappropriate and you probably should not have seen," and I said, "What happened?" I was trying not to shame her or make her feel guilty, or make her feel like she can't come to me. And she just said, "Well, my friend wanted to look up... " What was it? "How babies were made," or whatever.

0:34:58.5 DB: Oh yeah, yeah.

0:35:00.6 Shendi: And I said, "Well, we already have that discussion." And she goes, "Yeah, but she wanted to show me some other things." I said, "Okay." I said, "Well, when she showed you those things, how did that make you feel?" And she goes, "Well, it kinda made me feel, yuck, or sick in my stomach." And I said, "Okay."

0:35:14.6 Shendi: I said, "Well, why didn't you come talk to me?" And she goes, "Well, I was a little scared. And then after she left, I didn't think about it." And I said, "Okay." I said, "Well, sometimes you just forget things, but that's okay." She said, "So... " So we talked about how she felt, and then we talked about in the future, if something like this happens, what can she do or who she'd talk to, who are her safe people, I guess.

0:35:43.9 Shendi: And we said, "Some of these things might make you feel a certain way," and I said, "and that's okay and it's normal." I said, "The only... " What I told her is, "The only problem is, is when you're looking at it all the time." I said, "Or when you feel like you need to look at it." I said, "Then that's kind of a problem. Because I don't want you to feel like... "

0:36:00.8 DB: Or keep it a secret.

0:36:01.4 Shendi: Yeah, and I said, "I don't want you to feel like that you can't come talk to me, but you wanna feel like you wanna talk to your dad and talk to me." And just because it was our daughter, I didn't wanna exclude my husband, and I want her to feel like she could talk to both of us, not just mum.

0:36:21.1 DB: Oh wow.

0:36:21.7 Shendi: And so we did it with both of us sitting there. We sat her down, the both of us and we said, "We know that how this works, we know how babies are made, and if you feel uncomfortable about of anything, come talk to Mum and Dad. And if you feel uncomfortable talking to dad, you can talk to me or... " I wanted her to know that we are both there, not just one of us, just because she was female like her mum.

0:36:46.0 DB: Yeah, you've identified it as safe, and I like that word. Even when I have kids come in to the office, that's one of the very first discussions that I have with their parents there, is... Parents bringing them in because of exposure to pornography or whatnot. We identify immediately safe people. We don't just have this discussion around sex or naked people with any person. Even though you may view me as a therapist, this is not sacred or shameful... Excuse me, secret, not... It is sacred.

0:37:17.5 DB: It's not secret. We don't hold those secrets from the safe people, and we identify as... I really like that you did that, but also acknowledge that there may be still discomfort around that, "If you're not comfortable talking to Dad about it, still come talk to me." Have you seen her... Has there been episodes since then where she was able to follow through with those discussions?

0:37:39.8 Shendi: No, I don't think she's ever... I don't think so.

0:37:44.1 Brett: Yeah, I agree. We haven't had to address that issue again yet.

0:37:48.8 DB: Oh good. [chuckle] That's good.

0:37:51.2 Shendi: Yes. [chuckle]

0:37:54.5 DB: So in general, how does your conversations around... It sounds like you did talk to her about how babies are made. Is this an ongoing discussion? Do you freely talk about sexuality in the home? How do you continue to set that atmosphere within your home?

0:38:11.1 Brett: I think, just 'cause especially the day and age we're in, we try to have some kind of discussion, especially with our daughter, with her starting to hit the puberty age, I think we try to sit down to every...

0:38:30.1 Shendi: We sit down with the kids, I think general every couple of months, and we do have a discussion on, "If somebody touches you here, if somebody touches you there." What do we call it?

0:38:41.7 Brett: Stop touch.

0:38:42.6 Shendi: Stop touch or don't touch.

0:38:44.4 DB: Oh. Love that.

0:38:48.5 Shendi: What's the other phrase they usually use that we didn't? "Because sometimes stop touch kinda feels good, so it's not a good touch or bad touch, it's stop touch or don't touch." And so we try every couple of months, we try to have a family home evening based on, "Okay, if you see this," or "Can you see that?" And we try not to go into...

0:39:10.7 Brett: Too much detail, but enough for they to understand. Yeah.

0:39:16.7 DB: How do you feel the other kids are picking up? Is this just for the older kids, or you do this even with the seven year old and the one year old? I guess the one year old really isn't picking up too much.

0:39:25.3 Brett: Our seven year old just kinda giggles at it. It's kinda the same with our nine year old. I don't think they're at to the point where they really understand yet.

0:39:33.6 Shendi: Well, our nine year old has some... We're currently in that process of trying to get us tested for autism and ADHD and stuff.

0:39:41.0 DB: Oh wow. Yeah.

0:39:41.9 Shendi: So when we had our baby a year ago, we were waiting for the question for the boys to ask. And they never really did until maybe about six months ago, our seven year old was just like, "Well, how are babies made?" I said, "Alright." I said, "Well... " We just basically gave him the basic talk. I didn't say, "Well, Mummy and Daddy love each other and when they get together... " And it's like, "Well, you have the penis and the vagina, and you have to... "

0:40:11.3 Shendi: Tried to explain it to him as best we can, "You gotta put them together. And God gave in certain ways, and that's how they make a baby." And he was just like, "Oh, okay," and he didn't mention it again. But then when I tried to explain to my nine year old, he just...

0:40:26.3 Brett: He busted up laughing.

0:40:27.7 Shendi: Yeah, he stopped for a second and he just busted up. He goes, "That's silly," and then he was just done.

0:40:35.3 DB: Interesting. That's a typical reaction from a kid whether there's autism or not. So it's impressive that you're still engaging with that conversation and setting that tone for the family. What would you, from your experiences, would you advise other parents?

0:41:00.5 DB: Anything that you have learned that, "Oh, my goodness, this is not the best way to handle it."? Or how you would do it differently? What do you feel would be the most important thing to take away from what you're sharing today?

0:41:11.4 Brett: I think for me, the most important thing...

0:41:14.3 Shendi: Don't attack your children.

0:41:15.8 Brett: Yeah. Whether it's between spouses or dealing with children, is to be open, to be understanding, and never make someone feel shamed. And that's been the biggest thing with Shendi I've learned, is that she's never shamed me for my addiction. She's never shamed me for looking. She's always wanted to, I think understand why I look, why I felt the need.

0:41:48.8 Brett: And I think we were able to pass it down to our kids. Our 10 year old going on 11 year old were to come to us tonight and say, "Okay, this is what I did." I think we'd be able to sit down and have an open conversation where she didn't feel judged by us. She didn't feel shamed by us. She didn't feel like she was the worst person on earth, but she knew that she was loved and still cared for no matter what. I think that's the best we can give your kids is not attacking them for looking at pornography or anything else.

0:42:25.1 DB: I'm curious, Brett, do you think there would be a point in your children's life that if your 10 year old, or I guess any one of your kids, was struggling with this, would you share with them your personal experiences with this?

0:42:41.2 Brett: Absolutely.

0:42:43.3 DB: I really value that. I think that's something that...

0:42:47.5 Brett: I think...

0:42:48.0 DB: Go ahead.

0:42:49.5 Brett: I guess if there's anything good that can come out of my pornography addiction would be to share my own experiences and why, and take from my personal experiences to help my kids, or any of my kids.

0:43:06.2 DB: I love that. I think that's important for us to do. I think we're so hesitant to even share our own personal experiences around this. I don't know if it's a fear of triggering our kids or somehow letting them know that, "Hey, it's okay because I had the problem." But the reality is, I think our youth need to see more great people like yourself that, "Hey, this is a reality," and we can still be great Latter-day Saints if we handle it in this way, and are supportive with our spouse in this way.

0:43:37.3 DB: And so I really praise you both for handling it in the way that you have. And I think the key for me here was hearing the friendship that occurred prior to marriage. I realize not a lot of relationships or some relationships don't have that blessing of having such a good relationship before.

0:43:56.8 DB: Which is kind of ironic, that's what we want to do. We want to marry our best friends. To be able to... It seems like a no-brainer. But I think it actually isn't as common as is... I hope this isn't me just being nay-saying, but I don't see that a lot. A true friendship, to be able to say, "I know who you are. I know, your heart."

0:44:19.2 DB: And Shendi, you even said, even with that though, you established some boundaries, and that's completely healthy and appropriate in a relationship, even a good friendship like that, like you have. And then it continues to develop.

0:44:31.1 Shendi: I definitely got lucky.

0:44:31.5 DB: What's that?

0:44:32.0 Shendi: I said I definitely got lucky. [chuckle]

0:44:35.1 DB: Wow, that's beautiful. I think this is a good lesson to hear for me, and I hope the listeners are getting what they needed out of this. Any final thoughts?

0:44:46.8 Shendi: I don't think so.

0:44:47.6 Brett: No, we're good.

0:44:49.7 DB: I think we covered a majority of your married life here.

[chuckle]

0:44:55.5 Shendi: Yeah. Well, I think it's the same thing, it's not just a male problem, it can be a female problem too. And I think sometimes the first impulse is to lash out, and even if you do lash out, just be quick to say, "I'm sorry." Sometimes in a moment of anger, you say something that you shouldn't or you acted the way you shouldn't. And try to be open and honest with each other.

0:45:21.0 Shendi: Even if it takes a few days to finally communicate your whole feelings, or a couple of weeks even. I think it's just, that was our biggest thing, and I think that's the big thing that helped us the most, is communicating. And even if we struggle with communication, we were at least trying to communicate.

0:45:41.3 Brett: Yeah. That's the biggest thing for me is talk, talk, talk, talk, talk. Even if at some point it feels really uncomfortable, just keep talking, because that's, ultimately learning that communication is what's gonna keep moving forward.

0:46:00.3 DB: I appreciate that insight from both of you. I appreciate you taking the time to meet with me here today, and wish you continued success in your navigating this with you, and each of you and your family. Thank you.

0:46:14.6 Shendi: Thank you.

0:46:14.9 Brett: Thank you.

Hope Orr is the owner and photographer of Elevated Boudoir in Sandy, Utah. Through her own journey, Hope has been able to work through shame and insecurities around her body and sexuality in order to step more fully into who she is. 

Hope is passionate in helping women of all backgrounds embrace and celebrate their body. Her dream is to invite all women to connect with themselves on a deeper level, and show up more fully and unapologetically. Hope offers Boudoir Photography as a way to allow women to see themselves as they really are; brilliant, empowered, sexy, and strong. 

You can see more of her work or book a session by visiting

www.elevatedboudoir.com

Hope has a private Facebook group for women interested in connecting with others in learning to embrace themselves and their body more fully. You can join by visiting 

https://www.facebook.com/groups/elevatedboudoir/

0:00:00.5 Narrator: Welcome to Improving Intimacy, a podcast to help single and married Latter-day Saints strengthen their family connections and marriages. Daniel A. Burgess is the host of Improving Intimacy. Daniel's a marriage and family therapist, father, husband and author. Here's Daniel on this episode of Improving Intimacy.

[music]

0:00:28.5 Daniel A. Burgess: Welcome to another episode of Improving Intimacy. Today, I'm excited to have Hope Orr here, and to hear her story and what she does, and I think everybody in our audience will be curious to learn. And I think what we're gonna do here is we're gonna have this podcast, we're gonna give it an opportunity for people to hear after we publish. And then I would personally like to invite Hope back and maybe do a live question and answer online with everybody. But let's go ahead and kick this off and... Hope, who are you, and what do you do?

0:01:02.4 Hope Orr: I am a boudoir photographer. I work with women who are wanting to celebrate their body, who want to show up more fully and, I guess, whole in the world, and... Yeah, I don't know.

[laughter]

0:01:22.4 DB: That's exciting. This is great. So I'm bringing you in because one of the biggest things I see within my Improved... In the Improving Intimacy group is how frequently both men and women are curious, interested and wanting to find a good photographer, a boudoir photographer. And so there's a lot of questions around that, so I was excited to see somebody of your background, you did serve a mission, and you're now providing this service to women who desire and want it. What got you here? What made you decide? Were you a photographer before? This natural transition? What was it?

0:02:10.1 HO: Yeah, that's a good question. I have been a photographer for 10 years. I grew up... My dad is a producer, a film producer for the church, and so he actually kind of mentored me as I grew up on how to take good photos. And so I've done a lot of different type of photography throughout my life but boudoir photography is really where I find the most meaning and fulfillment, and I'm most passionate about it. And so it's more of a recent, in the last few years, journey that I've been on, offering this to other people, and then also experiencing it for myself.

0:02:54.5 DB: So tell me a little bit more about that journey, that experience. As you're talking, the audience obviously can't see, but your face lightens up, it glows, as you're talking about, "This is a great opportunity." And we're gonna get into maybe some of the pushback or the controversies around it. You're shaking your head, "Yes, yes." I personally know that as I've entered into this profession and kind of stretched the boundaries around sexual health and insight... So what am I seeing when I hear you say journey and experience and passion? What's making you glow about it?

0:03:29.9 HO: Yeah. So when I returned from my mission a number of years ago, I remember my mission president inviting me to pray every day to get married. And I think that's kind of funny that we tell 20-year-olds to pray for that.

0:03:45.5 DB: Yes. Get married and six months when you return, and... Yes.

0:03:51.4 HO: Yeah. So I was doing that and one day it occurred to me... I realized, "Okay, if this actually happened, let's say God answers my prayer, I'm gonna find someone this year, get married this year, am I ready for that?" And I realized I had a lot of shame around my body, around my sexuality, around my sexual desires, and also a lot of... How do you put it? I did not feel like I was really educated or prepared for that type of stuff in my life.

0:04:31.2 DB: When you say stuff, you're talking about sex? Intimacy?

0:04:36.3 HO: Yes, yeah. Yup, all of the above, about... I guess with the idea of, okay, I'm gonna get married, and all of a sudden, I'm gonna start having sex with a man, and I don't know really anything about my own body, about sex, about so many different things. And so it was quite miraculous. Shortly after that occurred to me, I was given people and resources in my life to be able to start a self-development journey for myself and learn, and also release a lot of the shame around my sexuality.

0:05:18.1 DB: So, pause, 'cause you did something that I'm very impressed with, and that I usually only see occur after marriage, is you had this insight, this awareness that you weren't ready, you didn't understand your own sexual health, your own sexual desires. Can you tell us a little bit more about that? Was it literally that? Was it an epiphany? Was it in your prayers? Was it walking down the street? What allowed you to have that insight? If I could ask you. I realize that's still ambiguous, but what was that discovery before marriage?

0:06:01.2 HO: I know part of it was looking at, "Okay, how do I want to create my life?" And realizing like, "Okay, if I'm going to have what I want in life, I need to be in a place right now where I'm ready for it." And I think that that is applicable to any point in our life, like, "Okay, you want more money, alright, do you feel ready for that?" Or different things. And so I believe that we have to look at what we want to create and then look at what beliefs, what narrative are we saying in our head that is keeping us from getting to that point. So I've done a lot of self-development in my life, and so that was definitely part of it. It was, "Okay, if I want to get married, what is holding me back?"

0:06:54.6 DB: Amazing, I can't tell you how important that is. I see, maybe if we categorize it in two or three ways, those who don't have that awareness at all or have this general perspective of things will work out in the marriage, or we'll discover these things. They don't even... And by the way, this is not a criticism. This is just how we're trained in relationships. Our parents never taught us how to think about this. So this is why I'm finding it's really impressive and fascinating, is you're falling into... And so there's a second group that may do what you just did, yeah, I don't think I'm really ready for marriage. There are aspects about myself... I know we've had children who've been married, who were concerned about body image. And so there's that group where they're kind of aware, but their course of action to improve that is either absent or they don't know how, or, again, they think it's gonna just work out in the marriage.

0:07:55.0 HO: Yup.

0:07:56.5 DB: But you fall into... I'm going off the cuff here, there's probably more dynamics to this, but it seems like you fall into a third group where you not only had this insight, this wonderful insight, but you had the awareness of asking questions that may be stretched you or encourage yourself to be prepared way before that ever happened. That's fascinating to me. I know you kind of answered that already, but where did you get it... Do you think that's intrinsic to you or do you feel like your parents taught you? What allowed you to have that skill?

0:08:33.7 HO: Let's see. I definitely grew up in a home where we were always encouraged to learn and grow and improve ourselves, and particularly, seek after truth and study for ourselves. And so that was a big thing, was I guess finding answers for myself. So that's part of it.

0:08:58.6 DB: I love that. So, you were encouraged, throughout your life, to be an individual, and to create your own relationship with yourself or with Heavenly Father, or whatever that is, is you're asking yourself the questions and determining your own path. I love that. Is that about right?

0:09:15.7 HO: Yeah, and I think also a big part of it with my own faith journey, with my own sexual health journey, as I learned more, especially about having a healthy relationship with my body and with my sexuality, realizing that I get to be my own person. And so I think that that also plays a huge role in that, in realizing that I can find the truth for myself, I can find answers. I don't have to look to other people outside of me to feel good about myself or to create whatever life it is that I want to.

0:09:52.2 DB: Was that immediate? I know I cut you off before you started going to more of what you did. You got resources. Did you have that awareness before those resources or was that what kind of developed out of seeking out resources and helping, or both?

0:10:08.0 HO: I'd say both. It was a mix, for sure. Yeah.

0:10:10.4 DB: And do you mind if we explore what you did to improve and stretch yourself and to be more authentic. What course of action did you take?

0:10:21.4 HO: One huge thing was learning about mindfulness and meditation, learning about what was going on in my mind, what fears I had, what insecurities I had. And then another, I was in a Facebook group and someone had shared a post... I don't know if I can share names or not?

0:10:39.1 DB: Absolutely. Yes. Yes.

0:10:40.3 HO: Okay. Awesome.

0:10:43.0 DB: Please. The whole purpose of my group is to provide good resources. Share away.

0:10:46.6 HO: Great. Awesome. I was in a women's Facebook group and somebody shared that there was going to be a workshop. It's a non-profit organization and she's a sex educator. And so I knew that I needed to talk to someone just to learn and figure out my body and stuff, and I was really scared. I needed someone who was safe, and so I emailed her and I said, "Hey, I'm really interested in this workshop but I feel a little funny being this young, single, Mormon girl showing up to... " It was like... I don't know. I think it was like a honeymoon, something having to do with sex, obviously, and I was like, "I don't wanna be this uneducated little young girl showing up," and so she invited me to come to have a one-on-one session with her, and that completely changed my life.

0:11:41.7 DB: Thank you, and please don't hold back your tears if you don't want to. This is emotional work. This is powerful. This is exciting and the audience wants to hear that. What would you tell somebody who's interested in doing a course like that? How to be prepared? Or what was it like for you?

0:12:02.8 HO: Meaning working with... Going in to work with her?

0:12:06.0 DB: Yeah. Yeah. Was it awkward or kind of... Tell us what you would expect, or what a new person would expect going into something like that.

0:12:14.9 HO: That's a great question. Well, for one thing, she made it so... I just felt so safe. I didn't even know her but I just felt so safe and so understood, especially with her response, 'cause I told her like, "Hey, I'm kind of scared," and she responded and said, "I totally get it, no worries, I can relate." And so just knowing that she understood where I was coming from, and then going in and having that one-on-one session with her, where we just sat and talked. And the first few sessions I had, it was releasing just a lot of shame around all sorts of things, like thinking that I had a pornography addiction when I was young, and looking back, I had never even seen pornography. But I thought that I was... Or thinking I had a masturbation addiction and all these different things, and feeling so much shame. And being able to talk with someone who was educated, who understood so many of these things. And it wasn't, I don't know... It wasn't like it was a confessional or anything like that... [chuckle]

0:13:19.4 DB: No, I follow you.

0:13:19.9 HO: Okay.

0:13:20.4 DB: You're having these discoveries...

0:13:22.0 HO: Yeah.

0:13:22.4 DB: And you're recognizing as... So you said it was a workshop but it sounds like it was kind of one-on-one.

0:13:27.6 HO: This one... Yeah. Because I was afraid to do the workshop, she said, "Come in and have a one-on-one session with me." So this was just me and her talking.

0:13:35.4 DB: So, as you're taking it, you're discovering, "Oh my goodness, I really didn't have a porn addiction, and masturbation wasn't even an issue. It was just part of my healthy development."

0:13:46.1 HO: Yeah. And I grew up thinking I was gonna go to hell or I wasn't gonna... I wouldn't be able to have kids or... You know, something like I was gonna be punished because like...

0:13:55.9 DB: Because you're having this behavior.

0:13:56.7 HO: Yeah. Yeah. And so there was just so much with that, and then also just so much shame about how I learned about sex, all those different things that we all have experiences growing up with whatever, with our bodies, with sex, where we tend to feel shame around those things. And so being able to talk with someone and be validated in my experience, and just being heard, and having a safe place, and also a safe place to ask questions, I asked all sorts of questions and... So, yeah... So the beginning was a lot of...

0:14:28.2 DB: You're the perfect client. You're coming in with questions.

0:14:32.6 HO: So many people have told me that.

[chuckle]

0:14:33.9 DB: And it's fascinating because we get a lot of people... And again, this is not a criticism, it's... One thing, as a provider of somebody who's doing... My passion is to improve sexual health and sexual awareness, and I get so... So many times clients coming in, male and female, and I want to improve this, but they don't want to ask the hard questions, because there are some preconceived ideas there. Now, you brought up pornography. I'm gonna put you on the spot here. We talked about this before, and you get to say whether or not you wanna an answer. I think this is important because I work with so many people. Pornography addiction is defined as anything from I had a lustful thought a year ago, I saw an Instagram model three months ago, so I'm looking at hardcore porn five hours a day and masturbating multiple times to it. What was it about the behavior that gave you the impression you were addicted to porn or you had a porn problem?

0:15:39.7 HO: Yeah. So part of it was I masturbated all growing up, and I thought that that was really bad. And then, as far as the pornography part, a big thing was feeling aroused. I just translated, "Oh my gosh, I see... " Whatever. So the way I found out that I didn't have a pornography issue was actually sitting in a session with an LDS therapist, and she had made a comment of, "You've probably seen more than girls your age, than the typical girl your age, as far as inappropriate images," or whatever. And I sat there and I was like...

0:16:21.8 DB: So I'm gonna... 'Cause we like specificity...

0:16:23.8 HO: I know I'm jumping all around. [chuckle]

0:16:25.1 DB: No, no, no, jumping around is beautiful. I love it. What I like to do is specificity. Did I say the word right? [chuckle] We're talking about these things, 'cause again, as you get more familiar with this group, you're gonna see... And the problem around sexual health is we all have our own definitions, so when you say inappropriate, what I think I'm hearing is saying you've probably seen more women naked or... What do you mean when you say inappropriate?

0:16:53.8 HO: Yeah. Great. Good question. So, like a PG-13 movie, if a couple starts making out, or whatever... Like not even... Not even like sex, but stuff that would turn me on...

0:17:06.7 DB: Visually-stimulating...

0:17:07.8 HO: Yes. I...

0:17:09.1 DB: For you.

0:17:09.8 HO: Yeah. Yeah. And so the therapist had... 'Cause I had told her, "I think I have a pornography addiction," and she, one day, said, "You've probably seen more than maybe the typical girl your age," and I was like, "No, actually, I don't think I have. I've only seen things in like PG-13 movies, but I hadn't ever seen someone having sex or... I don't know, not even naked genitals."

0:17:39.7 DB: It was just the fact that you were getting aroused from what you were seeing.

0:17:43.6 HO: Yeah. Yeah, and because I had that desire to see or to keep watching, or whatever, and... But...

0:17:52.1 DB: So that was going against the For Strength of Youth, by...

0:17:54.8 HO: Yes. Yeah. Yes.

0:17:55.7 DB: And so that's... I think that's where we're getting at here.

0:17:57.3 HO: Yes. So, yeah. It's... By definition, I don't know that I would say it was a pornography addiction, if...

0:18:05.1 DB: But if you were to compare it to the For Strength of Youth and you're seeking out these feelings... These...

0:18:07.4 HO: Yes, then it's probably not... Yeah.

0:18:10.5 DB: So the guilt was springing from that, and as you were talking with your various coach or therapist, this was coming to light, that...

0:18:17.7 HO: Yeah.

0:18:18.0 DB: And so your LDS therapist was saying... So continue with that. What was she implying by, "You've seen more... "

0:18:26.2 HO: You know, I don't even remember what the conversation was, but that was a moment in time where I realized like, "Oh, I actually don't think I have seen more than the typical girl my age, but I have placed so much shame on feeling desires, on feeling turned on, you know, aroused."

0:18:47.6 DB: It's bad.

0:18:48.3 HO: Yeah. I remember, when I was a little girl, praying that God would take those arousal feelings away. I hated them. And I remember saying, "Heavenly Mother, why? Why do you give those to me?" And so... Yeah. So this journey that I started going on after my mission was really amazing in being able to release so much shame around my body and my sexuality, and then also really just stepping more fully into being a whole, confident, beautiful woman.

[chuckle]

0:19:23.2 DB: I can't emphasize how much and how important that message is. We hear this... I hear this a lot from young men. They get an erection and it's one thing, and some people feel like, "Yeah, I'm making excuses for young men." Well, usually, it's coming from females, saying it doesn't have to happen, but young men will experience an erection for not just a few seconds, 30 minutes, an hour, as a teenager. And what do you do with that? I'm hearing clearly not the same biological response, but as a female, I think this happens a whole lot more than women are either comfortable in sharing or... Rightfully so. So, in a long way, I'm saying thank you. Thank you for that vulnerability, 'cause I think there's a lot of women out there who need to hear that, the fact that they struggle with these urges, the sensations, the desires, and you're praying for it to go away, that occurs too in women. We don't talk about that a lot, 'cause it's visually noticeable in men. It's like, "It's there, what do you do?" And it doesn't just go away. So you're having these discoveries, and I appreciate you sharing that 'cause that is something I think is important for both men and women to hear.

0:20:41.8 DB: It happens there, and it needs to be talked about, so what do you do? I, jokingly, but I'm being serious when I say a young man can go into a donut shop and an erection comes. Are they breaking the principles in the For Strength of Youth manual by wanting to go get a... Not trying to be silly, but if you were raised as a young man who got erections out of the... The joke's there, if the wind blows, you're horny, and there's truth to that because your body is developing and you're discovering that. You're discovering now, in your resources, in your therapy, that that's normal. There's nothing wrong with that.

0:21:23.7 HO: Well, and I think so many women when... Like growing up, when you do feel those feelings of arousal, will try and shut it off, will try and numb it a little, try to ignore it, and then that is such a disservice to ourselves when people are ready to get married and to be sexually active and realizing... Not even realizing, but having a hard time being able to feel those feelings again. Or when they do feel those feelings, and it's in a place where they're allowed to, they feel so dirty and unworthy of being able to feel those feelings.

0:21:57.2 DB: Right there, that's the concept I think is so hard for a lot of potentially married and even married couples to understand. It's 'cause we convey this idea that it will work out. I can't tell you how many times I've heard that, but you're well aware that's not the case. And it goes against every spiritual, doctrinal, and psychological principle out there, is, we train ourselves to do one thing and we expect one day, just because of one event, we will do the opposite. You spend a good decade of your life before you get married, resisting, rejecting, suppressing these feelings. It doesn't just come back beautifully.

0:22:37.9 HO: Yeah.

0:22:38.2 DB: So now we're at this phase, you're discovering, you're exploring, you get the right help. Where does it go from there? What do you wanna tell us?

0:22:46.5 HO: Yeah. So after I worked through a lot of the heavy stuff, releasing a lot of shame around my sexuality, being a photographer, I decided that I wanted to do a boudoir session for myself as a young, single adult. And so I remember setting up for my camera, putting the timer on, and running over to the bed.

0:23:14.4 DB: You're literally taking your own shots.

0:23:17.7 HO: Yeah, and I was doing it for myself too... We don't often give ourselves the opportunity, as men or women, to really see our body fully and appreciate it and love it for where it's at. And so, my first experience doing my own little boudoir session was in a hotel room, I was on a work trip, and that changed the way that I saw my body. And of course, I had been doing my work in other areas to more fully love and accept my body, but that was something that I was finally in a place to see myself and to own my body and see that it's beautiful. And I guess the short version is I, over the years, have been able to see how that has helped other women and myself. And so that is something that I'm so passionate about offering to women as an opportunity to set fully into their body and to really celebrate it and see it for the beautiful body that it is.

0:24:29.1 DB: Now, I wanna jump into that, but before we do, I'm gonna bring up... 'Cause I know there's a lot of people out here asking, "Have you gotten criticism for this being just a version of porn? And how have you addressed that?" I'm just gonna leave it open like that. What are the obstacles you faced as you've... So what we're hearing is this has been life-changing for you. There's clearly a blessing that's come along with this. Now, I don't wanna make an assumption, have you gotten pushback?

0:25:01.2 HO: Yeah.

0:25:02.3 DB: And do you wanna tell us a little bit about that?

0:25:03.8 HO: Yeah. So, for a long time, I wasn't really sharing with the public or my circle that I was doing these or offering these...

0:25:14.3 DB: It's more word of mouth, or whatever?

0:25:16.1 HO: Yeah, word of mouth, and I was doing portrait photography for...

0:25:19.7 DB: And why was that? Because of the shame around it?

0:25:22.6 HO: Yeah, because I was afraid that... Something that I was afraid about when I started my sexual health journey, was that people would think I was promiscuous because, "Oh, this is a single girl, she's not getting married in the near future, she shouldn't be looking into this stuff right now," and so that was... The same with the boudoir stuff, is, "Oh, you're not married. Why would you want to do this unless you're being promiscuous?" And maybe that's just a story in my head.

0:25:56.5 DB: Oh, it's not just a story in your head. It's alive and real, as I think you already know.

0:26:00.6 HO: Yeah. Yeah. And so it wasn't until this last year that I decided this has been so meaningful and fulfilling, I'm going to do this, pursue it more full-time. And so I realized or I decided that if I wanted to help other women be brave enough to do this, I needed to be brave enough to share, and so I shared a photo and I was in a robe, I was very covered up, but I shared on my Facebook page and Instagram, and just shared my story of how I became a boudoir photographer and why it's so important to me. And I did get some messages and some people in my circle reaching out to different people around me, saying, "Help a pornography photographer," and people telling me they were concerned about me.

0:26:52.9 DB: Of course, and... Well, I say that kind of sarcastically, right? So, how did you respond to them? Or did you?

0:27:01.0 HO: Yeah. Well, it was an opportunity for me to look inside and get more clear on, "Okay, am I? Maybe I am," just being willing to look at it. But yeah, so a response is, "Hey, thanks for sharing your thoughts. I would love to talk about this more," and some people didn't really want to talk about it, and I understand that they're coming from a place of their own triggers and their own hurt and pain, and their own understanding. And also it's like, "Okay, I'm more than willing to discuss this."

0:27:42.6 DB: Was the reception or criticism better or worse with men or women? Or was it kind of the same?

0:27:49.5 HO: It was mostly from men.

0:27:53.8 DB: Yeah, I'm smiling over here. Isn't that the truth? You can't even own your own sexuality, your own pursuits without somebody coming in.

0:28:04.6 HO: Yeah, and that was something that was really frustrating, is, "Okay... "

0:28:08.3 DB: So you were defending yourself mostly against what men were thinking? I mean, I'm sure there was women there too, but...

0:28:15.7 HO: There were women too. And I do have to say I don't get a ton of kickback, but I did in the beginning, and I've kind of decided, "Okay, I'm gonna keep pursuing this and keep just doing my thing because I'm seeing how it's changing lives."

0:28:31.8 DB: And forgive me. I don't wanna focus just on that, breaking through that barrier, but I do like to emphasize it at least briefly here because I think that's what holds so many of us back, is how do we get through that. I know, when I first published my article on masturbation and how it's a healthy part of development, we were teaching this, as a church, actually, as early as 1927, I think. And then things kind of... The way we approached it was different, but here I had a science-based article that was in line with my professional teachings. And I remember the day I was clicking the publish button, I was shaking because of the concern. I knew my relationship with my Heavenly Father, my family, the work I've done with clients, the beautiful progress I've seen, but there was this fear, this shame of how I would be perceived, and having a breakthrough, and we don't talk about that a lot, and I think it's important. Would it be fair to say it was scary or...

0:29:40.0 HO: Oh, absolutely. Yeah.

0:29:42.3 DB: How did you deal with that? I mean, there was a day that you made a decision to go live with your website and say, "This is who I am." Again, I don't wanna make the focus all about that, but I think it's important for at least others to see what it was like for you to go through. Do you mind sharing the emotions or feelings you went through?

0:30:01.4 HO: Yeah, with this and with my faith, I've had a lot of experiences and opportunities where I have had to show up and say, "This is me, and this is what I'm choosing to do with my life." And it's painful to see people I love and what they respond with. And so part of me, some of it was, "Okay, I'm just gonna do it," and I have to pretend that all those people that I see in my mind that are watching me aren't actually watching me, and then processing through the shame later, the feelings that are triggered once I'm like, "Oh yeah, yep, they're watching, and they're now responding." So...

0:30:47.7 DB: You come across as a very insightful person, I know I've already pointed out.

0:30:52.0 HO: Thank you.

0:30:52.1 DB: I think there's a lesson there, is you're internalizing it. You're not just saying, "Screw you." You're not... You're saying, "Okay, alright, I see what you're saying here," but then you go off and you do your internal work later. Is that a fair summary?

0:31:06.6 HO: Yeah, absolutely. And I would say for people who may have to do similar things in their lives, if I could go back to my younger self who felt scared about showing up more fully because of how people would treat me or think, I would invite myself to have more compassion for where I was at, and realize, "You actually don't... You don't need to show up, you don't need to explain yourself if you don't want to, and it will come." And that's something that I have seen, with my life. I've been doing boudoir photography for a number of years now, and maybe for someone, it's a shorter amount of time, but for me, it took a little bit for me to get into a place where I was really, I guess you could say, embodying where I stood and felt confident enough to make the step and to let myself be seen. So...

0:32:03.9 DB: That is beautiful. That's a lesson I hope people take away from this message here. That's beautiful. So what are you doing? What's been your experience working with clients? So tell us both... I'll let you choose, but both the successes and maybe the struggles of doing this work.

0:32:26.5 HO: Yeah.

0:32:28.3 DB: And oh, by the way, are you exclusively women, or do you work with men also?

0:32:33.3 HO: Yeah. So, right now, I work with women and couples. And so I know I've had a number of men reach out to me, which I think is amazing. I think that's so awesome that men have this desire because I know that it's not... Our body image and insecurities and things, that's not just a female problem. And so if men want to be photographed, what I will do is I'll do a couple of sessions, and then I'll take some photos of the wife... Or of woman and then of the man. I don't, at the moment, photograph men on their own. Yeah.

0:33:07.0 DB: So tell us some of your success stories and also struggles.

0:33:12.2 HO: Yeah. So, one of the most... My favorite things about working with women is being able to have them come in one-on-one, and being able to give them this experience. My boudoir sessions are a luxury experience. They get to come and they get their hair and make-up done. They get just well taken care of...

0:33:37.5 DB: Pampered?

0:33:38.4 HO: Yes. Pampered. Thank you. They come, they get pampered, and this is all about them and getting to celebrate their body and own their body, and that... Being able to see that with each individual woman is just so fun. And then bringing them into the studio after they get their hair and make-up done, and it's just... It's like this girl's party. I have my hair and make-up artist and me and our client, and we're pulling out outfits from the client's wardrobe, and just seeing how they're nervous, obviously, a little bit, but also just excited for something that's a new experience, and a fun experience. And so that is something that's very exciting and fun for me, that I love. And then I guess... Let's see, I also... With my clients, I've worked with a number of women in different phases of their life. I've worked with women who are pregnant, with women who just had a baby and want to embrace their body where it's at.

0:34:40.2 HO: I had one client... This is one of my favorite experiences. I photographed a client, and six months later, she was diagnosed with cancer. And so she had those photos. We don't always know what's gonna happen in the future, but being able to photograph right now, the phase we're in. And she was diagnosed with cancer, spent around nine months in bed getting treatments, and things, and she's now cancer-free. And about a month ago, I was able to photograph her again, and that was just such a special experience for both of us to have done it before, and then after everything, she's gone through and showing up and just hearing her story and her experience with... Like, "Oh, my body isn't perfect, it's not where I want it to be," but showing up anyways and allowing herself to be photographed. And she loves those pictures. And I guess both the pictures before she had cancer and the pictures afterward, that was just a really... I was honored to be able to be part of that.

0:35:52.0 DB: That is beautiful. Have you had clients where they struggled with self-image and were... In a more severe way and use this as an opportunity to help that, and did you see... Did you have an experience where doing this helped them overcome some of their negative self-images?

0:36:17.4 HO: Yeah, absolutely. I would say almost everyone I've worked with has had body image issues, and they'll often share with me beforehand like, "I'm a little insecure about this part of my body or... " But I had one client... And, oh, I will say I have permission to share these experiences, I made sure, I did that before I came. I had one client who you would never expect that she didn't like her body because, according to cultural expectations about how your body should be, she checks off that list. And I photographed her, and I remember in this session, I hadn't... The photos weren't edited or anything, but I turned the camera around to show her the photo, and she had tears in her eyes, and she said, "I've never liked photos of myself until this... Until today." And yeah, it was just amazing. And then I sent her the gallery and she reiterated that again. And then I got a text from her later, that she said I could share, and she said that she had struggled with eating disorders for 13 years of her life, and how this experience, being able to see her body and how beautiful and amazing it was, was just completely life-changing for her.

0:37:40.0 DB: That is... I can't imagine what that would be like for somebody. I think we do men a disservice, thinking, you brought it up a little earlier, we have image issues, but we're not expected to. We struggle with this thing. I think men would benefit from maybe something similar. Maybe not the exact same thing but... But to hear that, 'cause I work with quite a few clients, so I'm gonna kind of blend a topic here because I think you're probably one of the best people to inform me on this since you're working on the side of helping women to embrace their beauty, their naturalness, their authenticity. As a male therapist, it's interesting 'cause I'll get both... I'll get women who want to work with me to improve that aspect of their life, primarily because it's been men in their lives who've defined that for them, and so, in a therapeutic way, they use me as a confrontation to... Not in a negative sense, but you know what? You're a man, I don't wanna be afraid of this anymore, which is interesting because I value that, that's actually an appropriate role of therapy. We do have a lot of exposure in getting used to "I wanna be confident with this." While at the same time, I may get women who want to work on this, but because I am a male therapist, it's scary, it's hard to break through for that, and I always respect that, of course.

0:39:16.7 DB: What are your thoughts? Do you feel... I realize there's no absolute answer here, but if you were to coach a therapist, a coach who is a male, what would you say? I realize, this is the big question, how would you say is a good way to help women feel safe?

0:39:39.5 HO: In therapy, or in general, in life?

0:39:40.7 DB: In exploring their... If they're coming to therapy and wanting to improve their sexual health, their negative self-image, I guess maybe have you worked with a man, or is that why you haven't worked with men in the past? Are you wanting to find that as a safe space with other women? What are your thoughts? It's a really broad question.

0:40:05.1 HO: Yeah. No, that's a good question.

0:40:07.1 DB: In other words, how can we men support and help and be better?

0:40:09.4 HO: Yeah. My first thought is every woman... You already know this, but every woman is different in their need for how to heal that. And so some women, for them, they're in a space where they're ready to have a man who is a safe place to listen and to talk about it. And then, for other women... I probably wasn't one of those women, I needed to talk to another woman because that was safe for me.

0:40:39.6 DB: So let me give you a little bit more context. I have a lot of men reaching out to me who would crave for their wives or girlfriends, fiances to do this. And I sincerely... So there's a dynamic here. I think a lot of men are afraid to even suggest it because of the perception around sexual health and sexualizing everything. It's a fascinating place we're at because I think we're breaking through a lot of barriers, but I think men have this stigma already. If we talk about seeing a woman who is in lingerie as beautiful, we're automatically sexualizing her. So we'll get a husband who's saying, "Gosh, I know my wife, in all her pregnancies, in her middle age, is sexy. She is beautiful. She doesn't see it." I think a boudoir session would be helpful for her. But even suggesting that can come across as invasive or not appropriate. Is there... It seems like... What do men do? What do you suggest? I'm sure you've seen this dynamic play out. Is there... And again, I know everybody's different, but what would be your general suggestion in husbands or...

0:42:06.7 HO: I love this question. So, if my friend... If I had a friend who came to me to ask me that, I would say, "Start out by telling your wife, 'I'm afraid that you're going to think... Or I'm afraid... The story is in my head that I'm going to come across as this way, and this is not what my intention is, but I've found this amazing boudoir photographer, Hope, who helps women and focuses on helping them feel better and more confident in their body, and I really love you, and I would love for you to see how I see you.'"

0:42:46.3 DB: I like that. So, in other words, put it in terms that are value-centered to her. Not, "I want this... "

0:42:53.9 HO: Yeah.

0:42:53.9 DB: Or, "I think you should do this so you can see what I see." That's all 'me' centered. That's... As opposed to, "You are beautiful and I would love to see... I would love to show you what I see." It's still kind of 'me', but it's focusing on her. I really like that approach.

0:43:11.4 HO: And I think a huge thing, even take boudoir photography out of it, just having that communication, like creating that safe space between one another, where you can communicate, "Hey, I want to share this thing and I'm a little afraid of how it's gonna come across, so let me explain my fears a little bit, and then let me explain what I'm wanting to say." And of course, you're the therapist, I'm not the therapist, I don't know everybody's relationship or how to navigate those things completely, but that's something that's been really helpful in my life. So...

0:43:45.9 DB: Well, no, it's interesting, I talk with hairstylists or photographers, and they are pretty much... My wife's a vocal coach, and she says a lot of her sessions are pretty much therapy. You go to a very sensitive place, and I think it is valuable, and so you're in a position to do something very, very vulnerable. In some ways, it's... I don't know if you compare it to more vulnerable now, but it's definitely just as vulnerable as therapy. You're going in, you're sharing an intimate side, your insecurities, you're showing up to this stranger, most likely, and I'm bearing pretty much all. And so, no, I think your insights are very valuable. You're having to navigate these very sensitive, fragile topics that are triggering for a large number of people. This is excellent. So, in general, what do you recommend? When do you feel it's time for... Should all women do this?

0:44:46.1 HO: That's a good question. You have all the best questions, apparently, today. Every time you ask a good question, I'm like, "That's the best question." So one thing I strongly suggest, this is also kind of linked to your last question about what can men or husbands do, is I... So I have a private Facebook group for women, and that's a space that's... It's a support group, it's a safe space, and it's a fun group. We have fun things that we post and women can go and ask questions, and so a lot of times I will encourage women who aren't sure if they're in a space to get a boudoir session to go and join that group because it allows them to get a feel forme'. And that is incredibly important. Like you said, this is a very vulnerable experience that they're signing up for. And so that's one thing, is allowing them to get to know their photographer, to decide if this is a safe place, and also to help them, I guess, develop that trust. And then I think every woman's journey is her own. And so, for some women... I guess, to answer your question, the short version is do I think that the only way to feel confident and amazing in your body is to go get naked and take photos? No.

0:46:09.7 HO: Do I think that it's an amazing, incredible opportunity for women to be able to love and embrace their full-body? Yes. And so, for some women, they may decide that it's not for them, and that's totally okay. And then also I'll have clients who, for some of them, they wanna come in and just show a shoulder and that's okay, and for others, they wanna do completely nude. And so I think it's important for me, as a photographer, to meet my clients where they're at, and it's also important for individuals to meet themselves where they're at.

0:46:45.2 DB: Excellent. I love that response. So what are your aspirations? We've heard the struggles, the journey you went through to get here. Who are you now? If you were to describe yourself, what has this success made you? How would you describe yourself as... So let's talk about everything, as a person, your sexual health, what are your views on sexual development? Let's go anywhere you're willing to go. Who are you now?

0:47:19.0 HO: Cool. Cool. Yeah, that's good... Sorry, I don't know why I keep saying that's a good question.

0:47:23.6 DB: I warned you we were gonna go everywhere here.

0:47:27.9 HO: Yeah, I think the biggest thing that has come from my life experiences and, of course, my career choice is that I've become my own person, and I have come to realize that I get to be in charge of filling my own needs, and I get to give myself permission to show up as a whole person, as someone who can create a life that I love. And a wonderful thing that I think has come from that, and I realized that that... This isn't always what happens for everyone, but I have been able to find myself in a relationship that is incredibly wonderful and fulfilling, and there is just so much trust and communication. And that is, a big part, because I did the work for myself, and I believe, whether people are in a relationship or not, they can do that for themselves, they can come to discover themselves. And so sometimes people are like, "Oh, you know, I'm in a relationship now. I wish I had gotten a boudoir shoot when I was single." And I'm like, "You can do this for yourself, whether you're single or not, it gets to be for you." And so I would say as I have embraced my sexuality, as I have done what I call my inner work around loving and accepting my body and myself, it has transformed the way that I show up in life.

0:49:12.0 HO: I feel more confident, and I feel like I'm able to own myself and my choices far more than I ever used to. I used to be a huge people-pleaser. I used to care so much about what people think, and I still find myself in those moments, 'cause we're all human, but I would say, as I have done the work to have a healthy relationship with myself and my body, it has completely transformed, I would say, every aspect of my life.

0:49:45.9 DB: I realize it's a journey. There isn't one point where you say, "Yeah, I'm done. I'm... This is great," but do you feel like you can now experience desire or orgasm or masturbate and feel like there's no guilt here. What's that level?

0:50:02.0 HO: Yeah. Yeah.

0:50:04.0 DB: I wish you guys can see because she's glowing again. It's like, "I own this. There is no shame." Is that what I'm seeing?

0:50:10.6 HO: Yes, yeah, and realizing that God didn't just make these things for me, so for only the use of when I'm gonna create a baby or only the use for a man, or anything like that, but...

0:50:25.5 DB: Have you ever talked about masturbation this openly?

0:50:27.7 HO: No.

0:50:28.9 DB: How are you doing it?

0:50:31.6 HO: I have with my circle, with friends, we talk about masturbation, and all the things, sex, and stuff. I've never really done this with a man that I... You and I just met today in person.

0:50:45.6 DB: And you appear very comfortable. Is that what you're experiencing?

0:50:49.5 HO: Oh yeah.

0:50:49.5 DB: Okay, good.

0:50:50.0 HO: This is great. I love it. And I forgot what your question was.

0:50:55.0 DB: Sorry, this is what we do. We get really organic here. The question was, originally, do you experience guilt around that at all, or are you able to truly bask in it? Like it's joyful... From your facial expression, yeah, it seems like that's the case now, is you own it, and you get to thoroughly use it as a part of happy living. Would that be a fair description?

0:51:20.6 HO: Yeah, and just like you said, it's still a journey, right? And so I am still discovering things about myself and my body, and I very strongly believe that we talk about our sexual ability or powers, or whatever you wanna call that, as, obviously, a way to create human life, and I also see it as a way to create, spiritually or energetically, my whole life. And so, yeah, I don't feel shame around that anymore, and there are still things to learn but it's... I don't know, it's amazing.

0:52:10.3 DB: Still things to learn, you kinda looked off in the distance. Were you thinking of something specific or... What do you mean by that? I agree with the general principle that we're always learning, but was there something specific that you're thinking of?

0:52:26.5 HO: Yeah, let's see. Still things to learn, meaning like, "Okay, I know how to orgasm but that doesn't necessarily mean I know all the different ways to experience pleasure in my life, and how can I continue?" And not even experiencing pleasure, sexually, but...

0:52:46.2 DB: It's not just about the orgasm, you're saying, it's like, "What is my body experiencing?" Is that what you mean?

0:52:52.2 HO: Yeah, and slowing down with my body and being present, and giving my body my attention and loving it.

0:53:02.5 DB: A lot of people refer to, for women, OMGYes. Was that a resource you used? Or what do you do? Or how do you go about experiencing or learning, for you? Is it just a natural thing for you? Or are you using...

0:53:19.6 HO: Yeah, this is interesting, getting very specific. I've used OMGYes, and I haven't used it in a while because it wasn't super-working for me. It wasn't my flavor, but it is something I'd like to revisit, I guess. Yeah, I don't know. I think just trying different...

0:53:42.8 DB: Mindfulness?

0:53:45.8 HO: Oh, yes, yes. Yeah. Well, and that's... I refer to masturbation as self-pleasure and I think that mindfulness and self-pleasure are... They get to be something that's hand-in-hand. That's very... Yeah, it's very fun.

0:54:01.9 DB: It's not surprising because you started your journey off with mindfulness and I think that it's interesting 'cause I think, as a faith culture, we really do try to teach what mindful as think about what other people are feeling, try to teach empathy, but there's this very judgmental side that shuts that down. But you came in with mindfulness, being aware of, you learned early on, "What is your body experiencing?" And so resources like OMGYes maybe weren't the best for you because you're more of an... Correct me if I'm wrong. I'm just interpreting what you're saying here. It appears like you're more of an introverted person. You're insightful about what's going on. You know something's wrong and so you explore that. Is that kind of what I'm hearing?

0:54:49.4 HO: Well, no... So, as far as OMGYes, it was like the techniques just weren't working for me.

0:54:56.5 DB: It wasn't working for you?

0:54:56.6 HO: Yeah.

0:54:56.7 DB: Okay. It just wasn't right for you?

0:54:58.6 HO: Yeah, if we're talking on a physical level, so many things, in the beginning, I had so much pain down in my sexual organs.

0:55:10.4 DB: So you had to address that.

0:55:11.7 HO: Yeah, yeah, and that was... We are getting very specific here, but that was a big thing that also was... I wasn't ready. I'm like, "I can't have sex 'cause I can't even... Everything hurts down there, so... "

0:55:33.0 DB: Yup, so you had to address that, you recognized.

0:55:34.9 HO: Yeah.

0:55:35.1 DB: Yeah. No, that's... Again, this is something we don't talk about, and it is common, whether it's because it's biology, we also see vague... Oh man, I always butcher the word... Vagueness... Which is the painful intercourse, probably butchering that. My dyslexia always kicks in when I go live or try to teach something on board. Somebody's gonna call me out and say, "You said it wrong. You're a therapist, you should know." I know. I know. So, sometimes it's caused by physical development and/or by our perceptions of our sexual health, and so that's an important topic. And I know a lot of people don't realize it, they have painful sex, and it could be because of the good girl syndrome, or whatever. And so you discovered that and you're able to address it, so you're having to handle those issues.

0:56:25.0 HO: Yup.

0:56:26.0 DB: So, back to photography, thank you for going there... So I'm curious, you've gone through this journey of improving your own self-image, of improving your sexual health, and thank you for being so vulnerable with that. I personally... That's my goal, my aspiration in life is when we can treat... I really, truly believe whatever people's definition of sacred is, I really believe we could talk about masturbation, we could talk about intimacy, we could talk about how we overcome these things without it being weird, without it being creepy, and it's about really creating a culture of, "How do you masturbate? What does that look like?" Removing the sexuality, sexual stigma, or whatever you wanna call it, around it, what is your aspiration as you engage in this work? Do you have a hope or a goal of... What do you see the outcome here? If you had your wish, what would it look like?

0:57:35.6 HO: My wish is to help as many women as I possibly can to own who they are, to own their desires, to own what they want in life and to not feel shame for it, to be unapologetic about showing up and speaking out and being heard and being seen, and being totally alright, and... What's the word? Unapologetic is the word I keep thinking about...

0:58:07.7 DB: I think that's a great word.

0:58:08.7 HO: Being unapologetic about being themselves.

0:58:12.5 DB: And you're talking not just their physical self. You're talking about their whole person.

0:58:17.3 HO: Oh, absolutely, yeah, their whole being, 'cause the physical stuff, the boudoir, it seems like it's just something that's happening on the outside. But with every client I work with, no matter where they're at in their own journey, it is an experience that they have an opportunity that they get to do their inner work, and, yeah, to show up physically, but also emotionally, mentally, all the different ways to show up more fully.

0:58:54.1 DB: I'm gonna circle back around because I love your message there, I love the aspiration. It's not just about looking good in your skin. The work you're doing is intrinsic. It's how to be you. In our previous communication setting this up, the word authentic comes up. And I've said this before. I think pop psychology has really watered that down in that meaning, but there's a power behind that, to be able to show up without judgment as much as possible and not fear the impressions and perceptions of what other people... I have had to force myself into that place 'cause I'm actually a very private person. People don't think that because of my public presence, but I do value what people think, but being able to show up authentically. So I wanna wrap around using that thought. I work occasionally... More than occasionally, unfortunately, with women who have been emotionally mistreated in their relationship to... On a big spectrum. I'm thinking, one, I'm trying to keep it as vague as possible here, I think this is relatable to a lot of people who'd been in a relationship for years, and the spouse had particular views of what she should look like, I'll put it that way.

1:00:22.2 DB: And so now that she's coming to herself, she's trying to find a way to... Sometimes I say reclaim, but I don't... She acknowledges she's never had a claim on her body, her identity. And one of the exercises we do, I do, I offer... There are variations of this. I call it the naked assessment. You stand in front of the mirror... You're saying, "Yes." Good.

1:00:49.8 HO: Yes. Yes.

1:00:52.3 DB: And I'll be honest with you, as a male therapist, I knew this was an effective tool because I learned it from my female sex educators, but implementing it was always, always interesting because I'm totally comfortable with offering this, but recognizing some women struggle with it. But what... The way I approach this is, I want you to stand in front of a mirror in all your glory, you're getting out of the shower, you're looking at yourself, and you have a sheet of paper, your phone, whatever is safe for you. Put three columns on it, likes, dislikes, indifferent. And what I say is, "I want you to go through." Not like, "Oh, my legs, I like them." I want you to look at your toes. I want you to see yourself. You've been taught to not see yourself. I want you to first start to learn to see yourself, and then, as you go through, I want you to write down, I like my toes, I like my toenails, I like my ankles, all the way up or down, or however you wanna approach it." If you're done in five minutes, you're doing it wrong. It should be maybe 15 minutes a day, for a week, and you write down the likes, dislikes, and indifference.

1:02:03.2 DB: And a lot of people will go into that, saying, "Oh, the likes. Yeah, I own that." I actually challenge them with this question. I'll say, "Why do you like it? Where did that perception come from? Is it because you have that perfect nose that is on social media and you like it because it conforms?" to start reclaiming or to defining what do I actually like? That's a very difficult thing, as you can imagine. Where I'm going with this is sometimes I've worked with those who have been abused around their self-image, and they've done that, but there's still this very burden, heavy... You're shaking your head. Yes, I think you know where I'm going with this. I'm curious, I guess, maybe from your expression, you're saying yes, have you had to address this in your work? And have you found this type of work to help those individuals to see themselves in a new light? I think we've kind of answered this, but I wanna ask that very specifically, 'cause I know there are women out there who've done everything to reclaim their identity. What are your thoughts?

1:03:17.2 HO: Yeah, first, my thought is... So, I've done the mirror experience a little bit differently. I stand in front of the mirror and I just take myself in. And I've had times where I sit there and I feel so much shame about... You know, like with COVID, I had... I lost weight and then I gained weight, and I had so much shame about how I gained weight. And I knew, in my head, like, "Oh, I shouldn't feel this ." We know with our head, but then we're feeling something different in our body. And so sitting in front of the mirror and allowing myself to cry, and to say like, "Wow, yeah. I feel this way. I feel this way." And really fully holding space for our heart and ourselves to feel those feelings, that's one way.

1:04:13.6 HO: One practice that I use and encourage a lot of people to do, because when we finally give ourselves permission to feel those feelings, that's when we allow them to move to our body, so we don't have to carry them. So that's one thing. And then, as far as with boudoir photography, I will say boudoir photography will not save you, and I don't ever claim that or tell people that. It's amazing. It does change the way that people see themselves. It helps them see themselves in a new light. And at the same time, if there are people who really just absolutely loathe and hate their body, I would suggest that they get help from therapists, from professionals, because I'm not a therapist. I'm not professionally trained to help those in circumstances. And so, yes, boudoir photography is an amazing opportunity to be able to see yourself differently, and also, I would suggest people getting some extra help if they feel like that's what they need.

1:05:28.1 DB: Of course. I'm gonna ask a difficult question now. In your experience, are there particular clients that aren't ready for this? And what does that look like? So that somebody knows whether or not they're ready to take that step. Is there a particular concern that you've seen, that you would caution? Or... I'm kind of going out of thin air here. I just thought it would be a question to ask.

1:05:57.1 HO: Yeah. So I would suggest, you know, invite individuals to look at their reason for doing it. If they are hoping that it will completely save and fix their problems, then they might need to look at that and look at what they're hoping to experience, and how they can find that in whatever ways they need to.

1:06:22.9 DB: Okay. So I wanna clarify 'cause I think that's a great, great point, kinda going along with what you just said a minute or so ago, is if you're coming into this thinking it's going to radically change you without any other work, don't be mistaken.

1:06:38.7 HO: No, yeah. Yup.

1:06:42.0 DB: It can help. It's a part of the process, but if you're coming in with this hopes that it's gonna change, radically, everything you think and see of yourself without doing the work, the work being maybe more introspective, mindfulness therapy, whatever it is, this is just another step in that healthy development. Am I hearing you correctly?

1:07:01.0 HO: Yes, yup, yeah, and so I think...

1:07:05.9 DB: You're not saying, "No, don't do it," but don't assume it's gonna be...

1:07:09.0 HO: Yeah, take a look at your intention and your expectation, because if that's your expectation, then you might be disappointed. However, I would also say if somebody has a desire to do this, I would say that that is an amazing starting point, like, okay, if this is something that you want, then I would say, "Yeah, this is probably something that needs to happen," maybe it's now or maybe it's later. I have some women in my Facebook group who have said, "I'm not in a place... It scares me, but I hope that someday I will be." And that's totally fine, and they follow along.

1:07:48.6 DB: It's authentic. They're being true to themselves. They're not just saying, "Okay, this will solve it," right? And not being honest with themselves. So carrying that authenticity in.

1:08:00.8 HO: Yeah.

1:08:00.9 DB: So if somebody is just doing this without... They're feeling pressured, they're feeling like it's the only way to do it, you're not saying, "Don't do it," but be a little bit more aware of the goal here.

1:08:11.0 HO: Yeah. Exactly. Yeah, if you feel like you're having to drag yourself or you need me to drag you into it, then it might be... You might need some more time. But at the same time, it's perfectly normal for my clients to book and then be like, "Oh my gosh, what did I just do?" And so it's normal to feel a little scared or nervous, and that's okay. And they keep moving forward, and I help them, prep them up to their shoot, and then when they come, I'll have clients here, it's like, "I'm nervous, but I'm excited." And once we get into the session, I'm helping them, I show them exactly how to pose...

1:08:52.0 DB: They get lost in it.

1:08:52.1 HO: Yeah, and it's just this fun... Just an amazing experience for all of us. So, if someone is feeling nervous and feeling, "I don't completely love my body," that is completely, totally normal.

1:09:09.1 DB: I have maybe one last question here for you. You brought up earlier how it's improved your relationships. Are you in a relationship right now?

1:09:18.0 HO: Yeah.

1:09:18.6 DB: Okay, tell me a little bit more about that. I think that's important. How has understanding your sexuality, owning your own body helped the relationship? Give me some examples. I realize this is involving somebody else so I wanna be respectful of that.

1:09:39.0 HO: Yeah, that's okay. We're good. He's fine. Yeah. So one thing is, as I learned my desires around my sexuality and released shame around those, that's also connected to the desires we have just in our normal lives. And I think, for a lot of women, we find ourselves needing to clear through the beliefs of, "I'm not allowed to have what I want or I can't ask for what I want unless it's to bless and help others," or so many different things, or, "I should always be serving" or, "I should always be sacrificing." And so a huge thing with coming to embrace my desires and release the shame around those was seeing how that affects my relationship, realizing... Last week, my boyfriend was having just such a busy work week and I was noticing these moments where I was bidding for attention. And that's totally okay. That's fine. And also I'm realizing, okay, I can ask for... I can use my words and ask for what I need, or if he isn't in the space where he is able to fill that, I can fill that myself because I am my own person. And so I have... In my head, I have my list of ways that I fill my needs. And so I'm like, "Okay, he's busy. He's... " Totally understandable, and that's okay. I'm going to go take care of myself, take care of my needs."

1:11:16.9 DB: So I wanna be clear again here, are we talking intellectual, sexual, all of the above?

1:11:23.1 HO: Yeah, all of the above. Emotionally... So, with that experience last week, I was like, "Okay, I am noticing I need connection, so if he isn't able to be in a place right now, that's okay. I can find connection with my friends or my sister or myself." And so some days, I will realize, "Okay, my need for today is to be with myself," and it's like, "Oh, I need attention for myself, actually," so I'm gonna go meditate, I'm gonna go journal, I'll go take a bath, go pick my nails, whatever. And... Or other days, it'll be like, "I can't... I need other people. I need connection with other human beings," and so that's gonna be my boyfriend or that's gonna be my friend or my sisters. And so it has really helped me become aware of what I need and not expect him to fill all of my needs for me, and realize that I get to do that.

1:12:25.8 DB: I'm gonna point out what... I don't see it as a paradox because I understand that we call that self-actualization. You are your own person, even in a relationship. The way you phrase that, though I think some people struggle with that, I could get that connection somewhere else. Isn't that hurting the relationship? What are your thoughts? I don't wanna put words in your mouth. Do you know where I'm going with this? Does that make sense?

1:12:58.1 HO: Yeah. Yeah. No, it doesn't hurt the relationship. This is something that I love about my relationship, is that we both recognize, "Okay, we have needs and the other person... " We're capable of helping each other fill those needs, and also we have created a safe space and trust with each other to be able to communicate, like sometimes if he and I are in an argument, I have an anxious attachment style, and so I'll be like, "I need you to hold my hand, and sometimes...

1:13:34.7 DB: You communicated.

1:13:36.5 HO: Yeah, and sometimes though, he's like, "I can't hold your... I'm not in a place where I can hold your hand right now," and I have to realize that's okay. And so I can hold space for him not being able to hold the space for my needs if that makes sense.

1:13:50.3 DB: Yes.

1:13:54.8 HO: And because we know, we can ask for what we want and we can be okay with not... With the other person not being able to give it to us. So, we have so much trust in our relationship, and it's not draining, or because we know...

1:14:11.4 DB: It's clear.

1:14:12.8 HO: Yeah, it's beautiful. I love it.

1:14:15.8 DB: I'm gonna have to take you and him on a roadshow because this is like... When I talk with couples, it is so far from what they expect. We use this word in a pejorative, and I think we're all... Even your relationship, that's codependent, in the sense of you understand each other. I don't know if codependent itself is a negative thing, but we do live in a way that's so codependent that if you're not experiencing what I'm experiencing when I need you to experience it, you are a manipulator. You are neglectful in our relationship. The way you just described it is... And forgive me, I'm not trying to put you on a pedestal, but the work you've done has clearly shown up in how you function as a relationship. And because of your self-actualization, of your individuality in the relationship, you have an identity. And we talk about... Whether you're married or not, we talk about relationships as being one, and we misconstrue that as we have to be one on everything.

1:15:13.3 DB: No, you fell in love with each other because you're individuals, and you're able to sit there and say, "I need this. You're not ready to give it to me, I respect that, but I was able to share it, and when you're ready, meet me where I'm at." And you are meeting each other at the right... And that's where I think a lot of people, at least in our faith culture, see that as a paradox. It's like, "No, I'm in a relationship with you, and I have to be your priority." I am being your priority by recognizing I can't give this right now, and I wanna be undivided with you, and that is beautiful, so I'm gonna... Maybe I don't intend it... For it be a loaded question, but do you feel like the work you've done around your sexual health and your photography is why you can do that now?

1:16:05.0 HO: Oh, absolutely. Yeah. I grew up... I was so codependent growing up, and again, I have an interesting attachment style. Even a few years ago, I was in relationships and dating people, where I was just like this energy vampire. I'm like, "I need you to be this for me, and I need... " And so, yeah, I'm a completely different person and different in how I show up in my relationships.

1:16:33.0 DB: What a wonderful, wonderful discovery, and it's clear, just looking at you, you've done the work, you're authentic, you're real. We've covered a lot of topics here today.

1:16:45.2 HO: Yes, we have.

1:16:46.5 DB: And I'm proud of you.

1:16:47.6 HO: Thank you.

1:16:47.7 DB: And you did it so... It feels like it was you. I hope it was.

1:16:52.2 HO: Oh, yes. Oh, absolutely.

1:16:52.8 DB: And any last thoughts or words that you feel like should be shared, whether it's with your work or your experience, anything? What do you feel like this audience of people struggling to know who they are should know?

1:17:10.1 HO: My hope is that those who are listening will be inspired and realize that... That they have what it takes to create the life that they want, the relationships that they want, whatever it is, career, that they can be their own person. That they get to show up as beautiful, perfect in their growth, whole being.

1:17:37.6 DB: I love it. I love it. Thank you, Hope. I think you have...

1:17:40.3 HO: Thank you.

1:17:41.6 DB: And I'm sure you get this a lot, I think you've provided a lot of hope here. So, thank you.

1:17:45.3 HO: Thank you.

1:17:49.0 DB: And I look forward to hopefully doing a live question and A with you.

1:17:51.0 HO: Yeah, absolutely.

1:17:51.4 DB: I think our group members would really appreciate that. So, until then.

1:17:56.6 HO: Awesome. Great. Thank you.

[music]

In this episode, Jennifer Finlayson-Fife PhD answers questions from our Improving Intimacy community. 

Here are the podcast episodes: Ask A Mormon Sex Therapist, Part 16 - THE oft-cited Episode 16 that has positively impacted so many marriages!

http://www.finlayson-fife.com/podcast-archive/2019/10/11/ask-a-mormon-sex-therapist-part-16

Partner Desirability and High/Low Desire Dynamics:

http://www.finlayson-fife.com/drjenniferfife/virtualcouch2

Virtue, Passion, and Owning Your Desire:

http://www.finlayson-fife.com/podcast-archive/2019/11/25/virtue-passion-and-owning-your-desire

Book Club Video Interview

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Bookclub Video Transcript:

00:00 Ray: So carry on.

00:03 Jennifer: Okay, so should I just jump in with the...

00:06 Ray: Yeah, please.

00:07 Jennifer: Yeah, sure. The only event, I think, that isn't currently full is just one that we kinda last minute decided to do because we had an opportunity, a venue, which is doing The Art of Desire workshop in Alpine, Utah next week, a week from Thursday and Friday. So it's a two-day women's workshop. It's like my most popular course and workshop because it's a course focused on women's self and sexual development, and kind of rethinking the whole paradigm in which we've been inculturated, and how it really interferes with desire and development.

00:48 Jennifer: And so, it's a good one, it's, you know, it's taking my dissertation research into everything I've kinda learned since then. So that's in Alpine and we just posted the tickets for sale like three or four days ago, and we still have maybe 20 spots left, so if anybody is interested in it, you can get a ticket. On my website actually, on my homepage.

01:15 Ray: Wonderful. At this point, I have to admit that I did exactly what Ellen and I talked about that I wouldn't do, which is forget to mention that our other host tonight is Ellen Hersam, and... [chuckle]

01:32 Ray: So we've been accepting questions for the last 24 hours, and we had several that came in and we have picked three or four that we might get to, I don't know, however many we're able to get to tonight.

01:44 Jennifer: Sure.

01:44 Daniel: And Ellen, why don't you pick up and can you give us a question?

01:48 Ellen: Sure. Happy to jump right in. Yeah, so we've got a few questions tonight. We thought we'd start off with this one. It's, "There's often debate around sex being a need or not, and how neediness isn't sexy, and how sex being a need kills desire. Yet many view sex as a need, not in life-or-death sense, but because they need that healthy sex life, helps them be happier both individually and as a couple. If sex isn't a need," so there's two parts here, "if sex isn't a need, what does this say about David Schnarch's Sexual Crucible?"

02:24 Ellen: "If any marriage would be improved by a healthy, intimate sexual relationship, how can it be said that sex isn't a need? If sex is a need, is... In this sense of being able to achieve personal growth, if I understand how Schnarch views marriage or the corresponding increase in marital satisfaction or individual happiness, how can we talk about its importance without killing desire? Or making one partner feel like it's their duty, instead of something they're doing for themselves, to increase their own happiness? I feel like if the couple isn't working toward a healthy sexual relationship, they're leaving something good and positive on the table, and missing a wonderful opportunity."

03:07 Jennifer: Okay, it's a good question, although I think the questioner is conflating the issue of... Well, I mean they're using the word "Need" in a way that kind of complicates it. I think when I say sex isn't a need, what I... If I have said that, what I mean is it's not a drive, it's not required for survival. Right? So a lot of times, people try to pressure their partner to have sex with them by putting it in the frame that they need it, meaning...

03:38 Jennifer: And my issue with that is if you're gonna talk about need, need is a way of trying to pressure their partner to manage and accommodate you without sort of taking responsibility for what you want. That's why I don't like it. So if you're gonna talk about need, then I'm thinking more about the issue of survival, and nobody needs sex to survive, 'cause as I've said, if that were true, there'd be a lot of dead people in our wards. And...

04:03 Ray: Oh my goodness.

04:04 Daniel: Maybe that's a good thing. [laughter] [overlapping conversation]

04:10 Daniel: And so Jennifer, is what I'm hearing you say is, is more of a manipulative tone...

04:16 Jennifer: Yes.

04:17 Daniel: Tone? Okay.

04:18 Jennifer: Yeah, exactly. And as soon as you start trying to manipulate, which many people do this, the higher-desire person tends to do this... And men are given that script a lot, that they need sex and so on. But as Mormons, we should be the least prone to that idea because we are fine, from a theological perspective, with people going without sex for their whole lives. Okay? So, now that said, I think sex is a part of thriving. Intimate sex is a part of thriving. It's part of a marriage thriving, and I wouldn't so much say that you must have sex in order for a marriage to be good. I wouldn't... Also, I wouldn't say you need for a marriage to be good in order to have sex.

05:04 Jennifer: I'm just saying that marriage... Meaning good sex is a part of thriving, but good sex is not something you manipulate or pressure into place. And lots of people try and don't believe me when I say that. [chuckle] So we all want to be desired, but the hard thing about being desired is you can't make somebody desire you.

05:28 Jennifer: Desire is a grace. And the more we try to control it and get somebody to give it to us, the less desirable we are. And the more that it feels like an obligation, or you're having sex with your partner just to get them off your back, or to get them to stop bugging you, or moping, or you know, whatever, and even if you get the sex you still don't feel desired. And so it's tough, it's a tough business, because the very thing we want, we don't have control over getting, we only have control over how desirable we are. 06:04 Ellen: So part of their question that I think I wanna highlight a little bit, is they say, "How can we talk about its importance without killing desire?" So without...

06:13 Jennifer: Yeah, yeah, because people are talking about its importance as a way to manipulate often. Right?

06:18 Ellen: Mm-hmm.

06:20 Jennifer: Like they're just saying it like... I was working with a couple of recently, and it was sort of, you know, "I'm focused on this marriage growing, that's why I wanna try all these new things with you." And so, they are using the idea of their standing up for a good marriage as a way to pressure the other person.

06:37 Ellen: Yes, so not making it manipulative?

06:40 Jennifer: Yeah. And I think you can be standing up for a good marriage and a good partnership by dealing with yourself. Dealing with the issue of your desirability. That doesn't preclude you from talking about the sexual relationship, but a lot of us are, because it's so easy to do it as human beings, we're much more focused on what we think we need our spouse to do, either stop pressuring us so much, or get their act together and go to Jennifer's The Art of Desire course, or something. [chuckle]

07:12 Jennifer: I have sometimes the men go and buy the course and then, a day later they ask for a refund, 'cause their wife doesn't wanna go, but... [chuckle]

07:18 Ellen: Yes, that makes sense. [chuckle]

07:22 Jennifer: So they're pressuring more on what the other person needs to do, as opposed to, "What is my role in an unsatisfying sexual relationship?" And I don't mean to say you can't talk about it and address what your spouse isn't doing, but oftentimes, we're so much more drawn to what our spouse is doing wrong, than how we're participating in the problem, and it keeps people stuck.

07:52 Ellen: Yeah, and they mentioned right at the beginning, this neediness isn't sexy.

07:56 Jennifer: Exactly.

07:56 Ellen: So if somebody is approaching this conversation in a relationship about their desire to have sex, and being in a relationship, a sexual relationship, they could essentially be approaching it in this neediness. And I think it sounds like their question is, "How can I approach it and not be killing desire by this neediness, but also be addressing the importance of intimacy and sexual relationship in the marriage?"

08:23 Jennifer: It sounds maybe like I'm not answering the question, but you have to confront... 08:25 Ellen: Maybe I'm not. [chuckle]

08:26 Jennifer: Oh no, no, not you. I'm saying me 'cause I'm gonna say something that maybe sounds like I'm not answering it, but...

08:32 Ellen: Okay.

08:32 Jennifer: I think you have to kinda confront that you are using the frame of neediness to get the other person to take care of you. Right? So, "I feel so bad about myself, I feel so undesirable, I feel so depressed when we're not having sex, and so for the love, give it to me." Okay? So you can do that, you might even get some sex, but you're not gonna get a passionate marriage. You're not gonna get the experience of being on an adventure together where you try new things.

09:05 Jennifer: So you have to deal with the fact that marriage is not designed, in my opinion, and I see this, we kind of learn the idea that marriage is mutual need fulfillment, and that's the wrong model in my opinion. That it's not about, "You prop up my sense of self, and I'll prop up yours." Because that just doesn't work, it breaks down very quickly.

09:31 Ellen: Absolutely... [overlapping conversation]

09:33 Jennifer: Yeah, that's what's happening when you date, but it only lasts for those few months. Okay? [chuckle]

09:38 Ellen: Yeah. [chuckle]

09:38 Jennifer: Because it's a short timespan. In marriage, you really have to handle your sense of self. You have to sustain your sense of self. If you're approaching your spouse, if you can sustain your sense of self, you're approaching your spouse from the position of, "I desire you. I love you, I like you, I like being with you." And it's real. Not, "Do You Love Me? Do you desire me? Am I enough?" Because that's not... A lot of people when they say, "How was it?" They mean "How was I?" Right?

10:11 Ellen: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

10:12 Jennifer: And people know that... They instinctively know what's actually happening. Are you touching your spouse 'cause you want them to validate you sexually? Are you touching them because you really do desire them, and find them attractive, and you can stand on your own, and sustain your sense of self? And a lot of us don't even track that's what we're doing.

10:35 Ellen: I think that goes to say a lot to what you had spoken about in your first podcast that we had linked to this book club, where you had done the role play, where you stood in for the husband and spoke what he would say to his spouse in that sexless marriage, but it was what you're saying here. He came across as, "This is what I need. This is where I stand."

10:57 Jennifer: Yes.

10:58 Ellen: And, "This is what I'm looking for. I love you. And this is where I'm at." It was less of, "This is what I... I'm in need."

11:05 Jennifer: Exactly.

11:05 Ellen: It was more important for our marriage.

11:07 Jennifer: That's right. He's talking about what he wants from a marriage, what he really is standing up for, but he doesn't sound needy.

11:16 Ellen: Yes. Yeah.

11:17 Jennifer: It's not about, "Hey, you have to give it to me. Please, oh please, oh please." It's like he's sustaining his own sense of self in that conversation.

11:26 Ellen: Yeah, yeah. I'd wanted to dig into this question. I'm not the one who wrote it, but I wanted to give this person the opportunity to kind of hear out the full... I'm feeling satisfied with it. I don't know who wrote it, but if they have any additional questions, they're welcome to jump in. Otherwise, I wanna give time to more questions. I know, Ray, we were gonna tag team it. Do you have a second question to go? 11:55 Ray: I do. [chuckle]

12:00 Ray: So this is a honeymoon question. So, "As I've recently heard you and other LDS podcasters talk about how newlyweds can have a better honeymoon. Thank you, this conversation is sorely needed. However, I'm disappointed that it so often addresses only the new husband's likely transgressions, while ignoring the new wife's. This makes the conversation feel very one-sided and blaming. I would love to hear you tackle the other half of the problem with equal energy, to round out the conversation by talking just as bluntly to future wives about what they need to know and do, to make their first sexual experience a good one, both for themselves and for their husbands. [noise] Cinderella will wreck a honeymoon just as completely as the inattentive two-minute groom we talked about so often."

12:49 Jennifer: Sorry, you just kind of... I just missed that last sentence. You said, "Cinderella can wreck a honeymoon as quickly as" and then I... I think that's what you said.

12:57 Ray: Yeah, as completely as the inattentive two-minute groom we talk about so often.

13:03 Jennifer: Oh, two-minute groom, got it. Yeah, I mean, probably the reason why I focus on the men is in part because we are so male-focused in our notions of sexuality, and so lots of men come into marriage, and LDS men specifically, in a kind of unacknowledged entitled position. Right?

13:29 Jennifer: So it's kind of like, "I've... This is my prize for having remained virginal all this time, and this is... " And they have learned about sexuality in the frame of, "Women exist to gratify this urge within men." So very often, the couple is complicit in that framing, meaning they come by it honestly, but that's their understanding. And so, it often goes that the woman has a very unsatisfying experience, and they both are kind of participating in this idea that the sexuality is primarily about the man.

14:13 Jennifer: Okay so, "This person wants me to have equal energy." [chuckle] "It's challenging, I don't know if I can generate it or not." [chuckle] But I guess what I would say to a future woman is just everything I say in The Art of Desire course. Right? Which is that your sexuality is as important as the man's sexuality, and this is a partnership. Right? And that if you frame it in this idea that this is a gift you're giving to your future husband, you can say goodbye to positive sexual experiences, because that frame will kill it. 14:54 Jennifer: And so, even though it's the frame you've been taught, and you've also probably been taught the idea that... I'm assuming you all... Yeah, okay, good. I thought I'd lost you, Ray. The idea that your selflessness and your sacrifice is gonna be fundamental to the marriage being happy, and that you are partly responsible for your husband's happiness sexually and in the marriage... That sounds a little bit wrong for me to say it like that, but basically you kind of shoulder this responsibility of him being happy, especially sexually, that that framing is going to make you unhappy in the marriage, it will kill intimacy, and will be a part of you disliking sex soon enough.

15:39 Jennifer: So you must think of it as a shared experience. And I would probably be talking to women about how important it is for them to... If they are relatively naive coming into marriage, how important it is for them to take the time to understand their own capacity for arousal and orgasm, and to not make the focus be intercourse, but mutual arousal, mutual pleasure, and that this is a team sport, and that taking the time to be together in this process, which is... Intercourse and orgasm are not as important as being together in this process of creating something mutual, shared, and desirable by both of you, is extremely important and you ought not move into a passive position, even though you maybe have learned that's the proper way for a woman to be sexually.

16:38 Jennifer: That you are a co-constructor of this relationship, and if you take that position, it's a devaluation of yourself and will interfere with the marriage developing as a partnership. So yeah, I have way more to say on it than that, because I've just... That's kind of like my main passion. But yeah, but that's what I would say is right.

17:08 Ellen: Jennifer, I'd even jump in to say, on your third podcast that we posted, The Virtue, Passion, and Owning your Desire, you spoke a lot to that point of, "Are you ready as a woman to take on being part of the relationship equally?"

17:24 Jennifer: Yeah. Right.

17:25 Ellen: And step into that role. And I thought that was really important to pull out.

17:31 Jennifer: Yeah. Because a lot of people are... [noise]

17:36 Jennifer: Can you hear me alright? Suddenly, it sounded kinda glitchy.

17:37 Ellen: Yeah, I can. Could we make sure everybody's on mute?

17:41 Jennifer: Just got glitchy for a second there.

17:42 Ellen: Yeah, I think... Yeah.

17:44 Jennifer: Yeah, I think so. I think one of the things that we just posted today, a quote from one of the podcasts I did recently, was just that a lot of us are tempted to hide behind a partner. You know? To not really step up and be in an equal position, and a lot of times we talk about that, as the male oppresses the female, but I think what feminism hasn't articulated as clearly as it's talked about that dynamic of oppression is how... Like the upside of being Cinderella in a sense. Do you know that fantasy that someone's gonna caretake you, and protect you from the big bad world, and sort of you can just sort of hide in their shadow.

18:26 Ellen: There's comfort in that.

18:28 Jennifer: Yeah, there's comfort in it for many of us. And we're... So that's why we're complicit in creating an unequal marriage, is we want a caretaker more than we want a partner.

18:36 Ellen: Yeah, so I'd even go to say that there's familiarity in that.

18:40 Jennifer: Oh absolutely. It's... Right, you know? We grew up watching Cinderella.

18:43 Ellen: Exactly.

18:44 Jennifer: You know? [chuckle]

18:46 Jennifer: I mean, I was looking for somebody to ride in on a horse, for sure. You know? [chuckle]

18:50 Ellen: Literally a horse, a white horse.

18:52 Jennifer: Exactly. Exactly. And I remember my first year of marriage and I was actually in a PhD program, I was 29 years old. And my, just my IQ dropped in the first year. I know that sounds ridiculous, but I just started... I had earned all my own money for my mission, for college, I had lived independently for years. Okay? I get married and I start like, I don't know, just doing dumb things, like parking in a tow zone because I thought John had told me it was okay to park there.

19:22 Jennifer: It sounds stupid. I would never have done this in a million years if I had... I was just sort of moving into the frame that I knew, and even my husband was like, "What's going on? Why did you do that?" I'm like, "I don't know, I don't know." [laughter]

19:38 Ellen: I got married. Why is my head so... "

19:42 Jennifer: Exactly. And almost it's like... It's almost in your DNA or something. Like you're just moving into what you've known. And so you have to catch yourself, that you sometimes are dumbing yourself down 'cause you think that's the way you'll keep yourself desirable.

19:56 Ellen: Yeah, I think that's a very good point. It's this idea that that keeps you desirable, but in fact, what keeps you desirable is that ability to make choices and be. And your...

20:07 Jennifer: Yeah. To have an... To have a self in the marriage.

20:10 Ellen: An identity. Yes.

20:11 Jennifer: Absolutely. And any... Any man or woman for that matter, who needs a partner to be under them, for them to feel strong, is a weak person. Right?

20:22 Ellen: Yeah. And you made that point actually in another one of your podcasts recently.

20:25 Jennifer: Yeah and I... I honestly was married to somebody who was like, "Wait, what are you doing? Don't do... " In that meaning he needed me not to do that, he had no need for me to do that. And so it was helping me stay awake to my own kind of blind movement in that direction.

20:43 Ellen: Yeah, and sometimes it just happens, you do it. It's almost this innate... Yes, like you said...

20:50 Jennifer: A hundred percent.

20:50 Ellen: It's an innate reaction and then, someone else finds that, "Oh, okay, we'll do [noise]" It becomes a pattern.

20:57 Jennifer: Absolutely.

20:58 Ellen: But you gotta get yourself out of that pattern.

21:00 Jennifer: Absolutely, and... Yeah, I... I still can do things like that, where if I'm with an intimidating male, I'll go into "Nice girl" instinctively, and just all of a sudden realize I'm throwing all my strength away like an idiot, and so it's just what is easy to do.

21:17 Ellen: Yeah. Yeah. Definitely.

21:19 Ray: And perhaps that's actually another thing we don't do very well in preparing people to be married, is you've lived your whole life as an individual, and now you've gotta learn how to be in a relationship all the time with somebody. And if you've been on your own a long time, you're probably actually looking forward to being able to lean on a partner to help with... You know.

21:40 Jennifer: Yeah. Yeah. But "Lean on" might be a little different than the experience of partnering and sharing the burden, where "Lean on" is a little more of a dependency model, but the collaboration model is really where you have intimate partnerships. That, "How can I bring my strengths, and you bring your strengths to bear, and we can create something stronger and better together." But it's not dependency, in the kind of up-down way. Mm-hmm.

22:08 Ray: Yeah. And that was... That was not what I was implying, by the way, but yeah...

22:11 Jennifer: Yeah. Sure, sure. Yeah. I'm just a word Nazi, I have to say... [laughter] Because... Because words communicate meaning, so I'm like, "No, wrong meaning." But anyway. [chuckle]

22:20 Daniel: So maybe a slightly different perspective, I've worked with a lot of men who've been very patient, they've stopped the pursuing of sex, or taking that dominant role, and have allowed themselves, from maybe your podcasts or things that they've just learned naturally, to kinda back off and allow that space to be there. But then, something else that's happened is kind of what we're talking about, is [cough] Excuse me. I just choked.

22:51 Daniel: Is, the female has no desire to pursue desire. So months go by, six months will go by. In some cases, even years will go by

23:02 Ray: Or decades.

23:03 Daniel: where the husband is not bringing it up in a... Maybe occasionally, "Is it a good time tonight?" But then, the partner's just like, "No, I'm fine." Right? How... I realize that's a huge topic but, how would you go about addressing that? And what's the role... What does... Does the man just not pursue it anymore or what?

23:24 Jennifer: No, no. Definitely not. And I hope I can address this well 'cause I'm... I am, 100% I promise going to do a class on men's sexuality this year. [chuckle]

23:37 Daniel: Great.

23:37 Jennifer: Yeah, I keep promising this, but I actually am gonna do it so... [chuckle] Anyway. But I do hope I can talk quite a bit about this, because I think we've sort of socialized men either into the entitled position, or they... If they don't wanna be that, then they almost can't own desire at all. They see it as, "It's offensive that I want it." And, "This is just this hedonistic, bad part of me." And they can sometimes be partnered with a wife who kinda takes the moral high ground of not wanting sex, or whatever. And this, of course, gets very punctuated by... If porn has been in the picture at all, because you know, now you can kinda claim that you're the bad one because you want sex, and it can make it really hard to deal with the sexless-ness of the marriage.

24:22 Jennifer: So what I would be thinking about is, if you're the higher-desire person, whether male or female, and your spouse does not desire you, I think the first question I would want to deal with is, "Why?" Okay? Why don't they desire me? Is it about me? Or is it about them? Or both? Is it that I'm not desirable? And that I'm functioning in a way in my life, or in the marriage, or in the sexual relationship, that it is actually good judgment that they don't desire me?

24:53 Jennifer: And/or is there something going on in them that they don't want to deal with, or grow up, or handle around sexuality? And that's obviously it seems like a basic question, but it's one that people surprisingly don't ask themselves very much. Because as I was talking to somebody a couple of nights ago, I was saying, "Why not go ahead and just ask your wife why she doesn't desire you?" And the reason for him is he doesn't want to hear the answer.

25:23 Ellen: I was gonna say, that's a very scary question to ask.

25:26 Jennifer: Yes, exactly. And in part because he already knows the answer, and he doesn't wanna deal with his own neediness, and the ways that he takes advantage in the marriage, and the things that are actually there that he would need to deal with to be freely desired. I mean, that's the bummer about marriage and intimacy, is that your partner gets to know you. And so, the things that... Your limitations become anti-aphrodisiacs often.

26:02 Jennifer: And so if you're gonna really grow in a marriage and a partnership, you have to really look at, "How do I engage or deal in a way that makes me undesirable?" Sometimes people are undesirable, and I'll just speak in the stereotypical way for a moment about, you know, some men are undesirable because they're too apologetic about their sexuality.

26:20 Jennifer: Because they sort of devalue it also. And they want their wife to manage the question of their desirability. Or manage the question of the legitimacy of their sexuality. And so, when they are too anxious, or apologetic, or looking for reinforcement around their sexuality, it feels more like mothering or caretaking on the part of their spouse, and that's very undesirable. And so, it's a hard question for men, and for all of us, I think in some ways, of, "How do I stand up for something I want, without being a bully?" Right? "And be contained enough without being wimpy and apologetic for my sexuality?"

27:10 Jennifer: "And how do I find that middle ground of kind of owning that my sexuality is legitimate and being clear about my desirability?" Without somehow taking advantage or being too reticent around it. And I think the answer, it's not an easy one to give in just a podcast really, because you kind of have to work with people around what's actually going on. But I think you have to really look honestly and with a clear eye towards the issue of your desirability.

27:47 Jennifer: And your own comfort with your sexuality and your sexual desires. Because if you can be clear that you are choosable, and clear that what you want is a good thing, and doesn't harm your spouse or you, then you can stand up for it and deal with... Because it could be that your spouse doesn't want sex because she or he just doesn't wanna deal with their anxieties about sex. And maybe you've been pressured in the marriage to coddle those anxieties too much and too long. And it's creating resentment and low growth. Well then it would actually be a desirable position, even though a challenging one, to stand up more for the sexual relationship moving forward, like in that one podcast I did. 28:36 Ray: Okay. Alright.

28:36 Jennifer: So are there other follow-up questions about that, or thoughts? If anybody has them, I'm happy to...

28:44 Ray: I'm guessing here, but the person who asked the question, 'cause I've heard you talk about it, I've heard, I think, Natasha Helfer-Parker talk about it, Nate Bagley talk about it. And it does kinda sound pretty one-sided, it's, "Husband, you gotta set your agenda aside, you have to make it all about her. Don't be a jerk."

29:12 Jennifer: Yeah.

29:13 Ray: My experience was... And I know a lot of other men have, we've had a similar experience, is it's not that we wanted, it was, we weren't gonna just run over our wife and get what we wanted. 29:24 Jennifer: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

29:25 Ray: You know? And we wanted to know we...

29:26 Jennifer: You maybe didn't have... You didn't have a participant maybe from the get-go, some people. Yes, definitely.

29:32 Ray: And so, if your partner shows up without any clue at all about what they want or what they need...

29:40 Jennifer: Sure. Oh, yeah.

29:41 Ray: How do you navigate that?

29:42 Jennifer: That's... Absolutely, that's... Right, it can't be collaborative if one person isn't... Not showing up, if they're pulling for a passive position. And many people are and you know, women have been taught not to kinda claim their sexuality because it's anti-feminine. You know? And so a lot of people believe they're gonna show up and the man is gonna teach them about their sexuality, and really, How does he know? [chuckle] I mean, right? For the very people.

30:13 Ray: Exactly.

30:14 Jennifer: And also, how do you co-create something, unless you're both participants in this process? So yeah, it's true. Yeah.

30:23 Leann: I think the frustrating thing is that, and I was one of them, oftentimes women don't, they don't realize they have desire, and they don't even feel like there's anything for... They're not the one with the problem, it's the husband wanting it and I guess pressuring. But when I'm in this intimacy group and it breaks my heart to hear from the husbands, 'cause the wives aren't in the group, they have no desire to want to get better, as far as the sexual relationship.

30:56 Leann: So that's what breaks my heart, is these husbands want to, but the wives just shut it down. They don't wanna have anything to do with helping themselves, or how... You know? And that's what I get frustrated in, is how do you help these husbands stand up for what... It would be beautiful, and right, and good in this relationship, but the wives just want nothing to do with it.

31:21 Jennifer: Yeah, yeah, and I mean, there's... Well, there's the part of me that's compassionate towards the wives, and then the part that would challenge the wives. Okay? So the compassionate part is, "This is how it's all set up." Okay? So desire is bad, sexual desire, any kind of desire. I grew up, the whole Young Women's Manual is about your selflessness, and how that makes you desirable, and that's the frame. Right? So it is a passive frame.

31:50 Jennifer: And that sexuality is a challenge to your desirability. So you wanna shut it down. I have lots of clients who had sexual feelings and thoughts, they'd watch Love Boat and masturbate, and [chuckle] so on and on. And then, they'd feel so guilty and bad, that they'd repent and shut it down and shut it down. You know?

32:10 Leann: Yes.

32:11 Jennifer: And like, as an act of righteousness and sacrifice would basically shut this whole thing down. Then they show up on their wedding night, and they're supposed to be a participant? I mean, based on what? So, meaning we culturally create this. Now, that said, because I have compassion for that, both... And men too, because for the men that maybe are too eager or whatever, they've also... They come by it honestly, they've been sort of taught this idea that women's sexuality exists for their benefit, and for their delight, and so on. So people come by it honestly.

32:45 Jennifer: I think, where I would be challenging of women is when they just don't want... You know, I talk about hiding in the shadow. A lot of us don't wanna own what our desires are, or cultivate them, or figure them out. Because we don't want the exposure of it. We want the safety of having somebody else caretake us. We want the belief, or the fantasy that this makes us more righteous, or more noble, or whatever. And we wanna sell that idea, because what we really know is, we don't wanna sort of grow up and take an adult position sexually.

33:16 Jennifer: And so, I think, the challenge is once you start... I had a lot of women whose husbands signed them up for the workshop or something, and they are mad, because... And legitimately so, because they feel like, "Look, you just want me to go get fixed, so that you will get everything that you want." Well then, sometimes they show up there, and then they realize, "No, that's not the approach she's taking. And I have this whole aspect of myself, that I have shut down, that it's felt so self-betraying."

33:47 Jennifer: And then, they suddenly realize, "Wait, I want to develop this part of me, I want to be whole again, I don't want to always be living in reference to my husband's sexuality." So they really just start to grow into it, and they start to figure out, and sort of deprogram these parts of themselves. There was other people that don't want to develop this part of themselves, because they are afraid... They're in a marriage where they're afraid, if they start to develop any of it, it will just get hijacked and used for the benefit of the husband, because the dynamic of the marriage has to be addressed, still.

34:19 Jennifer: But then, there's other people who just, like I said, don't really wanna grow up and develop. And they can hold the other... Their spouse hostage. And they can get the moral high ground, because he's looked at porn, or whatever it is. And it's cruel. You know? [chuckle] It is absolutely cruel. And people can definitely do that, because they just don't want to grow up, don't want to be fair, don't want to take on the full responsibility of sharing a life with somebody. A lot of us get married with the idea that, "You're gonna manage my sense of self and make me happy."

34:54 Jennifer: Men and women do this. Very few of us, if we really thought about what we are committing to, would even get married. Because what we're really committing to is, "I'm willing to basically deal with my limitations, and grow myself up for your benefit, given that you're willing to actually hook yourself to me. And I'm willing to really be a good friend to you, and do all the growth that that's gonna require of me." I mean, that's what you ultimately agree to, if you're gonna be happily married.

35:22 Ellen: So you're speaking a lot of collaboration. A collaboration alliance.

35:25 Jennifer: Yeah. Mm-hmm.

35:28 Ellen: Now, I understand you've spoken in the past of collaboration alliance versus collusive alliance?

35:33 Jennifer: Yeah, a collaborative alliance versus a collusive one, yes.

35:36 Ellen: What's your difference in that? It being a unilateral? Can you speak a little bit more of that?

35:41 Jennifer: Well, a collaborative alliance is, I think, the easiest way to say it. And I'm sure if David Schnarch were here, he would say it much more thoroughly. But basically, the idea that David Schnarch is talking about, is that a collaborative alliance is you are willing to do your part in a partnership towards a shared aim. Being good parents, be creating a good marriage in which two people thrive, creating a good sexual relationship in which two people thrive, that would be collaborative. And you do your part, whether or not your spouse is doing their part. You don't use the fact that your spouse may be having a bad day, and not doing their part, to get yourself off the hook around your part.

36:18 Ellen: Definitely.

36:19 Jennifer: That you're willing to stand up, and be a grown-up, and deal with things, even if your spouse is having a bad day. A collusive alliance is basically, where the worst in your spouse, and your worst in you... And everybody's in some version of a collusive alliance with their spouse. The happier people have less of one. Okay? [chuckle]

36:37 Jennifer: But a collusive alliance is the worst in you, hooks into the worst in me, and it justifies the worst in each of us. We use the worst in each other to justify the worst in ourselves. So it's like, you know people say to me all the time in therapy, "I wouldn't be such a jerk if he weren't such a... What a... " You know, like meaning... This is collusive alliance, that I don't have to deal with my sexuality because you're a jerk.

37:03 Jennifer: And so I use the fact that you're a jerk to keep justifying that I don't deal with my sexuality. But you can get really mean, and hostile, and nasty, 'cause you know I won't develop this part of myself. Right? So that's the way it dips... Reinforces. And I'm constantly in therapy being like, "Stop dealing with your spouse, deal with yourself. It's the only way this will move forward." I'm always saying that. 37:23 Ellen: Look in the mirror. [chuckle]

37:25 Jennifer: Exactly, get the beam out of your own eye. [laughter]

37:28 Daniel: Ellen or Ray, there is, I think, a few questions or comments in the comments section. So you don't have to do it at this moment, but when you have a second, follow up with that. 37:36 Ray: We'll have a look at that, thanks.

37:38 Ellen: Yeah.

37:40 Ray: When you've got a script for how to have that conversation with your kids…[noise] 37:48 Ellen: Ray, I think you're cutting out.

37:49 Jennifer: Yeah. Yeah, you just cut out there Ray. Can you say it again? How to get your kids to do that?

37:54 Ray: Yeah, I wanna know, if you ever have a script for how to address that with your kids. 'Cause that's the, kind of the bell. Right?

37:58 Jennifer: Well, when there are kids who are younger, what... 38:00 Ray: "'Cause you started it." "Well, you started it."

38:01 Jennifer: Well yeah, yeah, when my kids were younger, and this was a borrow, I think, from the IRIS book. But basically, they would have to sit on the couch, and they couldn't get off until they each owned what their role was in the problem. So...

38:12 Ray: Yes.

38:13 Jennifer: Yeah, that's one version of it, yeah. Another version is, like, put you both in the same boat, and until you can come up with the solution, neither one gets the positive thing. So you have to collaborate to get the positive thing. Right.

38:28 Ray: Right. Okay.

38:30 Ellen: So kind of back to a topic that we had been discussing about the woman really stepping into the role of being collaborative, and in equal partnership in the relationship. We have a comment in the chat box saying, "How do we change the church culture problems of the unclear functioning of women?" I've... So Nicole feel free... Oh.

38:54 Jennifer: Can you say that again? Say that to me...

38:55 Ellen: Nicole, feel free to jump in and clarify that. I don't know if I read it... "So how do we change that church culture problem of the unclear functioning women? Woman."

39:05 Nicole: Under-functioning.

39:05 Jennifer: Meaning that... Oh, under-functioning.

39:06 Ray: Under-functioning.

39:06 Jennifer: There, under-functioning.

39:07 Ellen: Oh, under-functioning...

39:07 Jennifer: Yeah, there we go.

39:08 Ellen: That is why. [chuckle]

39:09 Jennifer: Yeah, good.

39:10 Jennifer: So how do we change that culture? I mean, it's the women themselves often that are doing the teaching. To basically teach better and teach differently. I mean that like, you know, we can't necessarily go in and change or control what is in the curriculum, but we can change how we each talk to women and we can change what we share in Relief Society and so on, what we... So that's about the best we have. You can do podcasts. [chuckle]

39:41 Ellen: You can say really, it's really us, we can...

39:44 Jennifer: It's us.

39:45 Ellen: Change us, and us will change our relationships with others, and our others or relationships with others will change the others we interact with, and it will expand.

39:54 Jennifer: Yeah, absolutely, and I just tend... A lot of times we think the church is the leadership, and then...

40:00 Ellen: It comes down to that too, yeah.

40:00 Jennifer: We are the church. You have to think of it that way, in my opinion, and you just roll up your sleeves and have as much impact as you can, because I think the more you role model strength like that, the more you give people permission to relate to themselves, or to women in general, differently.

40:26 Ellen: So I'm ready to move on to another question that was posed. Ray, do you have any follow-up to the question that you had?

40:34 Ray: Nope.

40:34 Ellen: No? Alright. So the next one is a really interesting one, it says, "How is it best to navigate having sex during marriage struggles?" They go on to say, "When she's rude, or attacks the kids, or criticizes, or makes fun of me in front of the kids, I'm so repulsed, I don't feel like being around her at all. But then, eventually, within a few days or less, we both get the biological urge and want to enjoy each other, so we do."

41:01 Ellen: "And it's great, and we feel closer and better afterwards, but I worry she thinks everything is okay or resolved because we're having sex. When it's not. Perhaps that's how she feels as well. We are starting therapy... " Or, "We started therapy a few months ago, and that's helpful, though expensive. A chance to talk through things. However, in general, when we get a rare chance to be alone and talk away from the kids, we'd mostly rather have sex than talk about our problems."

41:26 Jennifer: Okay, well, that's the problem.

41:27 Ellen: "Is that a good approach?" [chuckle]

41:27 Jennifer: Wrong, no.

41:29 Ellen: "Give me advice in that respect, what we do when our problems are all so present?"

41:34 Jennifer: Well, it doesn't have to be one or the other, because you could say, "I really wanna have sex with you, but I think the way you talked to the kids today was horrible." Okay? And you don't have to necessarily put them right next to each other. But I wouldn't say one precludes the other necessarily. You can say, "I like you, you matter to me. I like having sex with you and I'm really concerned about how we're parenting the kids, and specifically how you are harsh with them, and then I come in and I coddle them." Or whatever it is. I don't think it has to... I think what maybe the person's asking is, "If I address this, it may very well kill... "

42:10 Ellen: I would say, absolutely yes.

42:11 Jennifer: "Our ability to have sex." Right? But then, I would say, if that's really true, if you can't deal with your problems and have sex at the same time, then you probably shouldn't be having sex. Because if dealing honestly with what's going on in the marriage means that you're gonna go through a period of time in which desire gets challenged, well I personally think you have a deeper responsibility to the well-being of the marriage, and your role as parents, than to whether or not you have the... How to say it? The placating experience of having sex. So I'm not here to say that necessarily you'll get one or the other, but if you know that you get one or the other, then I think you have to be really careful about how you're relating to sex, 'cause it has its costs.

43:05 Ellen: So if we go back to the original... Oh, go ahead.

43:06 Jennifer: Okay. No, I was just saying it has its cost if you keep kicking... You know, I talk in my marriage course about over-reactors, people that are freaking out all the time. But then there's also people that are under-reactors or they don't deal with problems as they arise. That's as toxic to a marriage. You then have people that look like they're doing great, because they have sex or they are low-conflict, but a huge storm is brewing, and oftentimes when those marriages rupture, they rupture permanently. Because they have no ability to... They have no ability to kinda handle the problems, because they have no practice in it. And so, under-reacting to your troubles, is really setting yourself up.

43:51 Ellen: Yeah, it's an avoidance technique.

43:53 Jennifer: Yeah.

43:54 Ellen: That's basically what they're doing.

43:55 Jennifer: And you know, of course the problems grow. They don't go away, they grow, they start getting out of your control when you don't deal with them.

44:03 Ellen: And they're certainly recognizing that, like they've said that they don't like that they're doing this, that they're concerned about this, they've started going to therapy, they recognize that's a very expensive way [chuckle] to talk. And... But they are...

44:21 Jennifer: Good luck if you're gonna go into... [chuckle]

44:23 Ellen: But they also recognize that they're physically attracted, and they have, as they say, the biological urge, and they want to pursue that as well. And so I see that as a good thing, as well, that they still have that, despite this... [overlapping conversation]

44:38 Jennifer: Yeah, well, and it doesn't mean that you can't have sex for sure, 'cause there's lots of couples that are dealing with their troubles, and they're still having sex.

44:45 Ellen: Yeah.

44:46 Jennifer: It's just another way of being together and sort of, you know, I think sometimes we have the idea that everything must be good in the relationship, and then sex is legitimized. It's just kind of a Mormon cultural idea we have. I don't see it that way, because I think a good sexual relationship can give you some of the sustenance to kinda keep dealing with the challenges. Part of why I've worked out things with my husband is 'cause I'm attracted to him. [chuckle] Okay?

45:12 Jennifer: And I want a good sexual relationship, but I want, you know... And so, that desire pushes you through the troubles. It gives you the energy to deal with the hard things. So I wouldn't necessarily say it should... You shouldn't be having sex, I would say if you're using it to get away from your troubles, then it's a problem.

45:32 Ellen: But using it for motivation to work through this?

45:35 Jennifer: Sure, absolutely. Now, I think what some people are afraid of is if they talk about hard things, then their spouse won't wanna have sex with them. So it's a kind of a kind of... People can be complicit in not dealing with things, the sad issue. But you certainly can use it as a resource, 100%.

45:54 Ellen: So their general question is, "How best to navigate having sex during marriage struggles?" It sounds like you're saying, of course don't cut it out, [chuckle] altogether.

46:04 Jennifer: Yeah.

46:05 Ellen: So... But don't use it as a way to avoid having those conversations.

46:09 Jennifer: Exactly. Exactly.

46:10 Ellen: Because there may be some fear around having those conversations, that it will reduce the amount of sex that you're having, but using the desire for each other as a motivation to work through those troubles, because you wanna get close together. Is that right?

46:26 Jennifer: Yes. Yeah, and I would say what often happens for couples is when they're right in the heat of the struggle, sometimes their desire goes down, but as they start to work things out, the sex gets way better. You know? It's like that, you feel gratitude, you see your partner as somebody who's willing to deal with things, you feel more aware of your separateness as a couple and through some of the struggle, and so the sex is more positive. So I wouldn't see it as one or the other, but I think if you want good sex, you want your relationship to keep growing and thriving, and that means dealing with hard things.

47:01 Ellen: Yeah, I can imagine that coming through difficulties and then coming to this place of convergence, where you're just together on something and you've almost... You've repaired something together.

47:15 Jennifer: Absolutely.

47:15 Ellen: It would make it even more powerful and even more meaningful.

47:19 Jennifer: Absolutely. Absolutely. So yeah, I think that's how couples continue to create novelty. In a long-term partnership there's only so much novelty you can generate. And I'm all for novelty, but it's still the same person, it's [chuckle] the same room, or whatever. 47:38 Ellen: That's so true. [laughter]

47:41 Jennifer: So you know, but I mean...

47:42 Ellen: I worry about that.

47:44 Jennifer: Yeah, sure. And I'm all for novelty. There's a lot of fun things you can do to create novelty, but I think what's at the core of a good intimate marriage is a growing marriage. It's a marriage that's growing, and you don't take the other person for granted. You recognize that they will challenge things in themselves, they'll deal with things honestly, you keep sort of becoming aware over and over again, that this is a separate person from you, who owes you nothing, but that will continue to grow and do better for your benefit and their own benefit, and that drives respect and desire. And so...

48:17 Ellen: I think that is a really key point, that I'll personally draw out, is they owe you nothing.

48:25 Jennifer: That's right.

48:25 Ellen: That's hard to swallow.

48:26 Jennifer: Yeah, I know.

48:27 Ellen: Because there's this sense of, "I've done this for you, you do this for me." Give-take. "You owe me" kind of idea...

48:36 Jennifer: Exactly.

48:36 Ellen: But to get away from that...

48:37 Jennifer: Yes.

48:38 Ellen: Feeling. That's hard. [laughter]

48:41 Jennifer: It's hard and it's the only way to do marriage, in my opinion.

48:44 Ellen: That's novel. [chuckle]

48:45 Jennifer: To do it from a passionate position, because as soon as you get it into, "I need this, you're obligated, you owe me." Right?

48:52 Ellen: Or even just the marriage contract idea of, "We... You married me, for good and for bad. This is bad, you are in it with me." This idea of, "You owe this for me, we're working on this." Making sure that you're not using that as a form of manipulation.

49:08 Jennifer: Yes.

49:09 Ellen: But a motivation to work together.

49:12 Jennifer: Yeah, which is not about precluding you from running your life, because you can say, "Look, here are the terms of my participation in this marriage, and if you don't wanna live by those terms, I can choose to exit." Okay? I know that's hard when you have a mortgage and kids, and all that, but you can define the terms of your participation, you can control your own choices. But I think as soon as we are in the idea that, "You owe me."

49:39 Jennifer: As a way to pressure and to... As a way to be in a marriage, you will kill desire. When it's more like, "Wow, this person chooses me day, after day, after day. That's amazing. This person has offered goodness to my life, and they don't have to. And they do. And that they do, it's a miracle actually." When you live in that frame, which is the only honest way to live in the world, to be honest. Who's owed anything? There's children starving in Africa, do you think that's what... They're getting what they deserve? You know what I mean?

50:13 Jennifer: No, but when you get good things it's good fortune. It's by grace, it's by... And so if you don't live in a gratitude-based frame, you're gonna have a hard time living with joy. And you have to live it, I think you have to live in that frame in marriage. Now again, I know people get like, "Wait a minute. Well, do you just mean you have to take whatever you get? The person's having affairs, you can't... "

50:34 Jennifer: No, I'm not saying you can't decide if somebody is bringing too little good, if somebody is trying to take advantage of that commitment you've made. That you may then have to make other choices, because living with them is not good for you. Right? Continuing to struggle with them is not good for you. But the idea that... But that's different than living in marriage from a frame of demand. And a lot of people want the safety of doing that.

51:04 Ellen: And I think there's this importance of, again as you've mentioned, this independence of self. You've mentioned in your other podcasts sometimes you do have to bring the conversation to the point of, "I'm willing to step away from this marriage."

51:19 Jennifer: Absolutely.

51:19 Ellen: If that's the case, "Because this is not good for either of us." And that's a very scary place to come to.

51:25 Jennifer: Oh yeah. But it's usually where people grow the most. It's when they realize, "I can't make this marriage happen." That for me is when people often make their biggest strides in their development, is when they stop trying to control whether or not their proud spouse chooses them, whether or not the marriage stays together. They're no longer controlling that, they're only controlling who they are, in the marriage.

51:48 Jennifer: When people really take that developmental step, that's when marriages really... Well, sometimes they fall apart at that point, because the other person won't step up. Or they really, really take a massive step forward. Because people are really operating, not from trying to obligate and control, but really a framing of choosing, and controlling themselves, and who they are in the marriage.

52:09 Ellen: Maybe I'm making a leap here but, Would you say that that's more a high-desire partner position to be in than a low-desire? To kind of...

52:19 Jennifer: To put the question of the marriage on the line, you're saying?

52:22 Ellen: Yeah, yeah.

52:25 Jennifer: Well, it depends on, "Why?"

52:25 Ellen: I don't know...

52:25 Jennifer: It would depend on "Why?" If somebody is in a marriage where their spouse just won't develop or deal with their sexuality, yes.

52:32 Ellen: That's where I'm... Yeah, that's where I'm looking. Right.

52:34 Jennifer: If somebody is in a low-desire position because their spouse is narcissistic, for example, or won't deal with the ways that they take too much in the marriage, and they keep trying to stand up to get that person to deal with who they are, because they do want a good sexual relationship, they just don't want sex in the current form. Okay? They're low-desire because of good judgment. Well, then they may be the one who's saying, "Look, I want good sex too, I just don't want what you're offering. It's all about you." And so, they may be the ones putting on... You know, calling it quits.

53:08 Ellen: Interesting.

53:10 Ray: I think, whenever the notion of, "Is sex a good enough reason to leave the marriage" comes up, there are a lot of people who are really quick to jump on that because they're afraid that if we normalize that, that's gonna be everybody's first choice. "I don't get what I want, I'm out."

53:29 Jennifer: Yeah, yeah.

53:30 Ray: And in my experience, it's really the opposite. It's when you're willing to actually walk away from... It takes a lot to be willing to walk away from what you have.

53:40 Jennifer: Absolutely.

53:40 Ray: I don't know that it's... That's anybody's first choice.

53:44 Jennifer: Well, and I think a lot of the time when people are saying, "Is sex enough reason?" We have it in the hedonistic frame, rather than if sex really isn't happening in a marriage, there's something bad going on. [chuckle] Okay? You know what I mean? Like, I mean...

53:58 Daniel: Yeah, it's not the sex. [chuckle]

54:00 Jennifer: Yeah, it's not the sex. Exactly, it's not the sex.

54:02 Daniel: Sorry, I don't mean to laugh, but...

54:04 Jennifer: No, but then you're right. The sex is an indicator of something much more profoundly important going on. And so, the sex is the canary in the coal mine.

54:14 Ellen: And I think that actually hits the point of the original question, the debate around sex not being neediness, or isn't sexy, but also wanting to talk about the importance of it.

54:25 Jennifer: Yeah.

54:27 Ellen: I think it goes back to that. I know that you've said it's not necessarily about the sex, but... It's the canary but, What killed the canary? [chuckle]

54:35 Jennifer: You know, exactly. It's exactly right. Why is the canary dead? Okay? Can we look at that? [laughter]

54:44 Jennifer: Exactly. Is there just too much noxious gas that the canary can't breathe? Or is the canary faking dead so that it doesn't have to, you know... [overlapping conversation]

54:54 Ellen: It's looking away. [laughter]

54:58 Jennifer: Yeah.

54:58 Ellen: Well, it is about three minutes to the hour, so I wanna respect your time. It has been a pleasure chatting with you, and being able to listen more. Our focus to three podcasts and collect people's questions and really just discuss with you. So I wanted to give you a couple minutes to close up, any closing thoughts you had as far as the discussions that we've had today. If there's any kind of ending thoughts you'd like to share, and then give you that au revoir and [chuckle] the opportunity to sign off, and...

55:38 Jennifer: Sure.

55:38 Ellen: Really one day invite you to come back, we'd love to have a follow-up at some point, and do this again.

55:45 Jennifer: Sure.

55:46 Ellen: But the time is yours.

55:48 Jennifer: I'm trying to think if I have any profound final thoughts. [laughter]

55:53 Ellen: You're probably thinking a lot actually. [chuckle]

55:57 Jennifer: Well, I guess maybe I would just say I respect in everybody that's here, the pursuit of sorting through these hard things, like marriage and intimate relationships are not easy. To achieve the beauty that relationships are capable of, takes a lot of courage. Courage to deal honestly with ourselves, to deal honestly with our spouse, to face hard things. Happy marriages are not for sissies. Okay?

56:30 Ray: Soundbite. [laughter]

56:39 Jennifer: So I really do...

56:41 Daniel: Jennifer?

56:41 Jennifer: Yeah, go ahead.

56:42 Daniel: My wife just wanted... Heard what you said and wants to put it on a t-shirt. Do we need to get a waiver or something? "Happy marriages aren't for sissies." [chuckle]

56:50 Jennifer: Aren't for sissies. Yeah, you could do that, just stick my name on it and my website... [laughter]

56:55 Daniel: You got it.

57:00 Jennifer: So yeah. So I respect it, I always respect it because I think it's the best in humans when people are willing to kind of face those hard things. And when I watch people go through it, it's hard. But it's really where all the beauty lies. So, there's divinity in all that process, even though it can feel like you're in hell sometimes.

57:25 Ellen: Well said.

57:25 Jennifer: Okay.

57:28 Ellen: Well, Jennifer thank you so much for your time.

57:31 Jennifer: You're welcome.

57:32 Ellen: Have a wonderful evening, and keep warm out there. [chuckle]

57:36 Jennifer: Thank you, I'll try.

57:37 Ellen: Please try to stay warm.

57:39 Jennifer: Okay, thanks everybody. Bye.

57:40 Ray: Thank you.

57:41 Ellen: Bye-bye. So, we're on. Yeah, go ahead Ray. You got it.

57:46 Ray: No.

57:46 Ellen: Well you got the book. [chuckle]

57:49 Ray: Okay. Let's go ahead and stop the recording at that point.

Part 2-2: How Understanding My Husband’s Pornography Consumption Led to Healthy Dialogue and Healing

Leanne is a wife of 31 years. She has 2 children who are both married. She is the grandmother of one. She is a retired preschool teacher of 17 years. She is enjoying her season of time with her husband as an empty nester.

**Note from Leanne, please read prior to listening: I think there might be some confusion in our story for some people. Some people I think believe that we started to view pornography together as a couple. That is not what happened at all. That day that I sat down with him and opened my heart to understand what was driving him to look was the last day that he viewed it. So I just want to clarify that.

When my husband and I started the journey of turning towards each other in all of the aspects of our lives and began to create a truly intimate marriage, the “need” for my husband to turn to porn left him. And my “need” to constantly check up on him left me. And I was healed from being stuck in betrayal trauma. The connection that we made in turning towards one another to proactively create what we really wanted for our marriage was the answer to porn not being an issue for either of us from that point forward. Turning towards each other healed both of us.**

Transcript:

0:00:04 VO: Welcome to Improving Intimacy, a podcast to help single and married Latter-Day Saints strengthen their family connections and marriages. Daniel A. Burgess is the host of Improving Intimacy. Daniel's a marriage and family therapist, father, husband, and author. Here's Daniel in this episode of Improving Intimacy.

0:00:23 Daniel: Welcome to another episode of Improving Intimacy. I'm really excited today. We get to have Leanne back on with us. We get to explore some of the topic set we addressed in the previous podcast in a little bit more depth and I'm excited and thankful that you Leanne are willing to come back on and explore these topics further with us. There is a lot of excitement with people who listen to your podcast and we're just craving more and this is a very private and very vulnerable experience for you, so I really appreciate you coming on and being willing to explore some of these topics in depth. There's clearly a need and it's moved a lot of people to hear your story. So, let's turn it over to you. Where do you wanna start? What do you feel from the people who've listened to your podcast and the comments that have been made? Where do you feel it's important to start?

0:01:19 Leanne: Well, first off, thank you for having me back. I'm excited to be back on here and like you say, to go over more in-depth of my journey and how I got to where I am today, but basically I just wanna start off with my struggles, like what my struggles were with my sexuality and what was holding me back for years and years. I struggled for probably... We were married for 31 years and I probably struggled for 25 of those years, overcoming some hurdles and issues that I had in order to be able to step into my sexuality. So, basically, that's just what I wanna share with everyone today is how I overcame. What those struggles were and how I worked through them, how I overcame them, how I was able to think differently. I think so often when we try to improve our sexuality, like we come to it from... Sex, like we try to... What sex acts can improve my sexuality, what things can I be doing in the bedroom to make me like it more. And I think too often we're just chasing after sex acts when really, especially for women, our biggest sex organ truly is our brain.

0:02:42 Leanne: And one of the things I learned... Just what I've heard about, I haven't read any of her books, Emily Nagoski. I've never read any of her books but I've heard people explain about her brakes and accelerators and I realized that for years and years as... 'Cause I wanted to want sex, I wanted to like sex. I did have that desire, all through the years of my marriage, I just could not figure out how to get there. And so, I would try different things over the years but what I realized with brakes and accelerators was even though I was trying to push on the gas and go forward and figure it out, I was standing on the brakes. I had so many issues piled up that I just didn't have my foot on the brake, I was standing hard on the brake. And so that was preventing me to make any forward movement at all in the area of intimacy, does that make sense?

0:03:38 Daniel: It does and for those who aren't familiar with Emily's book it's "Come as You Are", great book, very very insightful, gets into exactly what you're talking about, the science and the process our brains go through in experiencing sexual arousal. Tell us a little bit more though. What do you mean you're standing on the brake? What did that look like for you? What were you doing or not doing?

0:04:01 Leanne: For me, standing on the brakes, I guess, meant for me just any time I would try to make any forward progress in my marriage. One of the issues that I want... I'll talk. Some of these issues that were holding me back, they would just come forward to the surface and then I would be slamming on that brake again. And so, yeah, I guess going forward, talking here, we'll just start talking about some of those things that kept me with my foot on the brake.

0:04:27 Daniel: Yeah, let's start by that.

0:04:29 Leanne: Okay, so first off, when I finally decided that I really wanted to start working on my sexuality, one day I came across a little meme on Facebook and it broke down the word intimacy and I'm sure people have seen this before, but it broke it down to me saying, "Into me see". And I break it down to "into me you see." And what that means to me is, for me, the goal in marriage is to have a desire to know your partner on a very deep level and then to also allow your partner to know you on that very deep level. And for me that means knowing your partner's heart, their mind, their spirit, their body, and then letting them also know your heart, your mind, your spirit, your body. And so I really wanted that, that was the goal of me being able to work on my sexuality, was I wanted all of that, I wanted all that intimacy had to offer, and so that was the driving force that moved me forward to really working on my sexuality. But first, the first thing I think that I had to figure out was in order to be intimate on a sexual level, and to have true intimacy in a marriage, you really need to work on all the levels of intimacy in your marriage, and that means working on the psychological intimacy in your marriage which means honesty, loyalty, trust and commitment. I feel like that is the foundation to your marriage, is those four things; honesty, loyalty, trust and commitment.

0:06:09 Leanne: And then the other areas are verbal, emotional, intellectual, spiritual, physical, and then I've also added recreational. But in order to really be able to work on that physical level, the other levels had to also be being worked on. It's not just enough to say, "I want a wonderful intimate life, intimate sexual life." I feel like it was important in my marriage to work on all the levels. And once my husband and I started to work on all those levels of intimacy within our marriage, then it was easier to work on the physical intimacy part. I think so often we hear that women are more emotional and for me that's definitely true. And so I had to feel like things were being worked on outside of the bedroom in order for me to also be working on things inside of the bedroom.

0:06:57 Daniel: Before we get there and maybe you're gonna address this, but what did you have to do yourself? In the previous podcast and online you've talked a lot about how you have to face your own trauma, you have to face your own hold-ups around this before you can engage and improve your relationship together. That's a very difficult place for people who especially have experienced trauma and mental health issues around intimacy. How did you get there? What did you do to... We already discovered in the previous podcast that you do have a level of insight that I think is a little higher than most people, but regardless, what did you do to recognize, "Okay, I need to address this, this is my issue that I need to overcome." And what steps did you take?

0:07:50 Leanne: I honestly think the thing that really hit me the hardest when I started to really face myself was one day I was... It was the very, very first podcast that I listened to from Jennifer Finlayson-Fife, and I can't even remember where... I know it was some LDS site, like LDS Living or something and I've tried to find it and I haven't been able to just find it since, but she talks in that podcast about... We really need to bring our very best self to our partners every day. Like, we need to take a good long look at ourselves and ask ourselves, would we wanna be married to ourselves? "Would I wanna be married to someone like me?" And when I really started to look hard at myself and answer that question, the answer was no. I would not wanna be married to me, I was not nice because of some of the anxieties that I faced, I gave myself permission to act badly towards my husband either in coming from a place of I'm trying to protect myself or then also coming through a place of excusing my anxieties and saying, "I can't help it. This is just how I soothe myself, it's how I soothe my anxieties, is to control everything that's around me."

0:09:09 Leanne: And so, it really hit me hard when I listened to that podcast when she said, "We, we need to bring our best self to our spouse, every day." And I feel like my husband, for the most part, did bring his best self to me every day. He is so kind and very caring and very patient. And I realized that I wasn't giving the same.

0:09:32 Daniel: Was there a point, and maybe I'm making some assumptions here, that you viewed him as the broken one with the issues around pornography and maybe his behavior in the bedroom? Did you view him as the broken one and then have this epiphany like, "Oh, my goodness. I'm the one who's struggling here."

0:09:49 Leanne: It doesn't really played a role, it played a role in the bedroom, it played a role just because I had my foot so hard on the brakes that I... "He's just using my body because of what he's seen."

0:10:03 Daniel: Yes, exactly, thank you for clarifying. And that's what I was alluding to.

0:10:07 Leanne: Yeah, so some of the struggles within the actual sexual realm of things, I could blame some of them on him but I also knew what was going on in my own head, surrounding some of the struggles that I had, and so then I just realized I needed to work on 'em.

0:10:32 Daniel: Yeah, again, so you had that level of insight where you were able to acknowledge, and I think for the most part, most people are like that. Specifically women. I think there is that level, "Okay, I know there's an issue here with me too, but the pain and the difficulties in the relationship make it difficult to focus on that inward self because you see other problems in the relationship that you want to address or think are bigger and contributing to that, in this case maybe the pornography, it's tempting to say, "My husband's behavior is what's triggering me and until he fixes it, I can't fix myself." But you're seeing that or at least at this point you're saying, "No, I gotta address myself too."

0:11:17 Leanne: Mm-hmm. 'Cause I knew it was part of it, but I knew it was definitely not all of it, so I finally had to just face myself, "I need to figure this out." So then some of the things that I struggled with, like the first one being "the good girl syndrome" and I talked about that the other day. I think it's so hard, and not in just LDS relationships, but also I've heard lately more just in Christian relationships, in religions that really stifle sexuality or have such a strong belief around waiting 'til you're married. So, we get this message growing up that it's a bad thing like, "We don't do this, it's bad." And then all of a sudden when you're married, it's okay, it's fine now. It's really, really hard to change gears for a lot of women, and not just women, but for some men too, it's really hard to all of a sudden think it's okay. So, I had to get over that good girl syndrome and just really come to embrace the fact that I was created to be a sexual being as well as a emotional, and intellectual, and spiritual being, I was also created to be a sexual being.

0:12:28 Leanne: And, I think, so often growing up and nobody talking to us when we're teenagers of how to embrace our sexuality we try to repress it. And the other thing I struggled with and I talked about this on the last podcast, was I struggled to be sexual and spiritual within the same body, that didn't make sense to me of how to marry the two. And so the danger is in that though was I was completely shutting down my sexuality because I thought that my spiritual self should learn how to control the physical self. And by doing that it's like you're cutting off your arm, like when you shut down, you're shutting down a part of who you are and it's...

0:13:12 Daniel: Let me pause you right there for a second 'cause that's I think an important statement there, and I wanna make sure that the listeners understand what you just said. Tell us a little bit more about what it means, or at least what your paradigm was at the time that you're thinking the spiritual self should, would you say control my sexual behavior or my sexual desire, and you couldn't marry 'em together, what were you... Tell us a little bit more about what that meant to you at the time?

0:13:39 Leanne: I feel like it meant that if I... We hear that about our carnal selves and that we need to learn, control our carnal selves, and the natural man is an enemy to God. And so I think I was equating that my sexual part of myself was carnal, it was dirty, it was naughty, it was wanting things that it shouldn't want, and so...

0:14:06 Daniel: And that's why you were shutting it down, is...

0:14:09 Leanne: Mm-hmm.

0:14:10 Daniel: The experience you're having spiritually, so what was that? Did you feel like it was the spirit telling that this was inappropriate, that this was dirty, this shouldn't be pursued? And if you did, how do you view that insight now? Do you still look at that and say, "Yes, that was a spirit telling me that?" Or how do you reconcile that now?

0:14:31 Leanne: No, I don't believe that was the spirit at all. I think that was fear, I think it was fear, I think it was guilt, it was shame, it was those. It was those feelings. They were very negative and I don't think that's how the spirit works.

0:14:45 Daniel: Yeah, and it's interesting though, because this is not the first time I've heard this. And I've had many, many people come in and say, "This isn't right, the spirit's telling me it isn't." But typically, and who am I? I can't tell somebody that they're not feeling the Spirit, but this is usually what I'm discovering, is it's fear. How would you guide people who are trying to sort that out to distinguish between the Spirit and the fear or guilt that they're feeling around it, and why are they confusing the two? Kind of a bunch of questions there, but I guess, how would somebody distinguish that? What did you do to identify that really wasn't the spirit, that was actually fear and guilt?

0:15:33 Leanne: When I finally decided that I was gonna work on my sexuality and really open up my perceptions, and my thinking around it, and just become more open in my thinking, very quickly when I started to work on things with my husband there was a difference. Our relationship just grew so quickly, whereas before there was just... It was a hindrance to our relationship, progress was not being made. The guilt was there that I should not feel that way towards my husband, it's a beautiful thing and if there's guilt for even trying to become closer, I mean that's not right. That's not what our heavenly father wants for us, He wants us to be close, very, very close in that relationship. And so, once I just decided, "I'm not gonna feel these feelings of guilt anymore. I'm not gonna allow them into my mind," and started to work on things with my husband, very, very quickly things moved along at a really beautiful pace, really beautiful, wonderful things were happening within my marriage.

0:16:51 Daniel: Are you willing or comfortable with sharing any details, experiences around that?

0:16:58 Leanne: Well one thing, and I kinda have details interwoven when I talk about some of my struggles. So there's the one struggle that I had of giving and receiving. Dr. Jennifer Finlayson-Fife talks about this a lot. Truly being able to receive from your partner and you truly being able to give to your partner. I think, so often as women, we have a hard time receiving because we're always on the giving and the serving end of the doing and the taking care of kids, we have a really hard time receiving sometimes. And so the very first time that I had really learned how to calm my anxieties down in the bedroom, and there was one particular time when we were being intimate, and I for the first time ever I felt on a very deep level of how much my husband was giving to me, like giving his whole self to me, his heart, his spirit, his mind, his body, and I just had tears just streaming down my face because I felt like his goodness was pouring into me, and afterwards I was like, "I felt that. I felt your generosity towards me. I felt your love and your goodness," and he said, "I've been trying to love you that way for 27 years but you shut me down."

0:18:25 Leanne: I was just stuck in a place of, my mind was just so closed because of the guilt that I couldn't even open up to begin to accept what he was trying to offer me through his sexuality.

0:18:36 Daniel: What an amazing experience. He was able to tell you that in those words is, "You're were shutting me down?"

0:18:42 Leanne: Mm-hmm. Yup.

0:18:43 Daniel: It sounds like maybe you were ready and a place to hear that. I don't know, if I recommend every husband say that to their to their spouse, but...

0:18:52 Leanne: I definitely, yes, I definitely was in a place to hear that.

0:18:55 Daniel: That's wonderful, and you were recognizing how much love he was giving to you. So it sounds like you were ready to hear that. What a wonderful experience.

0:19:02 Leanne: And the other thing on that other end, so then the giving part, I think, that something that can become problematic and it was for me, is we...

0:19:13 Leanne: Dr. Jennifer, she talks about this and she got this idea from David Schnarch. And it's where we want to belong to ourselves, like the desire to belong to ourselves is even stronger than the desire to receive sexual pleasure. And so, if we as women or anybody if you don't step into your sexuality and really embrace it and own it and want to share it with another person, then you're constantly gonna be feeling like your partner is taking it from you, 'cause you're not freely giving it and so you're gonna... Over time, I became very resentful because I felt like my husband was constantly taking from me and when I really stepped into my sexuality and had the strong desire to share it with my husband, it made all the difference in the world for me, I never feel like he's taking from me anymore 'cause I've owned it, I've owned that sexuality, it is mine, and it's mine to share. So those feelings completely went away. And so the resentful feelings went away, all that went away because my sexuality now belongs to me.

0:20:17 Daniel: If you don't mind, I wanna emphasize that point that is so, so critical in the process. And I love how you describe it when you're rejecting your spouse, you're setting him up for failure and you're gonna always feel like he's taking something away from you or burdening you. And I see that dynamic over and over and over again, where the spouse, the wife in this case, will set certain expectations, until those expectations are met there's no physical intimacy, whatever those expectations may be, and it sets the partner up for failure because you can't ever really live up to those expectations. Whatever they be, you may be able to do it, but then it becomes a checklist and it's anything but intimate. And that creates that cycle downward that spiral downward because, so well said, because it feels like now it becomes this exchange of tasks and a burden, it does not create the intimacy. So that is so hard to break, but then what's reinforcing it is we're thinking, "Well, we're having this negative experience in our sexual dynamic relationship because he isn't doing his part." It becomes very deflective, and so being able to look at this and say, "Open up to it." And then it's connecting, it's beautiful.

0:21:39 Daniel: And then you have these experiences. Now, not everybody's gonna have this, there's... In fact, I'm very curious, I would love to know at least your perspective what your husband was going through? He's been... He was giving and giving and giving for 27 years. That's endurance in... I would have to say, I know very few men who are able to maintain that level of giving for so long without becoming resentful, lost in their own sexuality. What do you think, if your husband wouldn't mind you sharing, what he was able to do to embrace that and continue patiently giving? And I'm not assuming he never had an issue of maybe resentment or hurt feelings. We're human beings, right? What do you think allowed him to continue to be loving and patient over almost three decades?

0:22:33 Leanne: It makes me a little weepy. He just had a very, very strong love for me. So it sounds like cheesy in a way to be like, "It's because he loves me, that's why he was able to endure it all." But that really was it, he was so in love with me, and that's not to say that there weren't hard times, there were times when things were rough and he would weep and he would say, "You hurt me deeply, you're not nice, and you hurt me deeply." But it was because he loved me so immensely that he endured it, and then also when he prayed to know whether he should marry me or not the answer that he got was yes and take care of her. And he understood how broken I was from the trauma that I received as a child and a teenager. He understood that he knew how broken I was and I think also he knew I was trying. I did want to want it and I expressed that often. It's not that I was the type of person that I was like, "I hate it, don't talk to me about it. I don't want anything to do with it." I wasn't that type of a person, I was the type of person that I would longing to want it, I just didn't know how to get there. And so he was very patient with me all those years and he just loved me through it and felt like he made that promise to my father that he would take care of me.

0:24:07 Daniel: What would you say to men who... I think there's a lot of men who have the level of love that your husband has for you, but the years have taken such a toll on them in their relationship and they're experiencing this, their wife not wanting you can't even bring up sex anymore, you can't talk about it. It's become very isolating even to suggest therapy or some sort of intervention around sex is just yet another manipulation or selfish desire to have more sex. What are your thoughts around encouraging those husbands to support their wives who are disconnected from this? Who aren't having that level of insight and they're starting experience that bitterness, any thoughts? They're not losing the love but they're they're lost themselves. It's been such a lonely experience that they don't know what to do. Do you recommend how husbands can support their wives and helping them understand their sexuality better?

0:25:06 Leanne: That's a situation that really breaks my heart and I wish I could sit down with those wives and have a conversation with them because I feel like in a marriage where the wives have completely set down is a very difficult place to be for men. And my heart really aches for them.

0:25:26 Leanne: I know that I've listened to a couple of podcasts by Jennifer Finlayson's life. Where she addresses that. And she talks about how a husband needs to sit down with his wife and say, "This is not okay for me, I need to feel loved in this way. And we have created this dynamic within our marriage to where we won't even talk about it and that's just not okay for me anymore. I'm suffering and our marriage is suffering and I believe you're suffering as well. And something needs to change." I'm not an expert to speak on that. But I feel like from things I've heard from Jennifer, she is an expert and has helped in that area. She talks a lot about how we each collude in the kind of marriage that we have. And I think that oftentimes in a marriage if we're not speaking up, in a loving way, and just kind of claiming what our desires are and what our needs are, if we're not speaking up about those then we are colluding in the type of marriage that we are creating.

0:26:28 Daniel: I like that idea in what you're saying there. First of all, I think what you're saying is very helpful. I think a lot of women appreciate hearing that. That you feel sad that they're in those difficult, difficult places, where they don't even... To even think about sex, would just drain them and frustrate them. And somehow getting out of that.

0:26:50 Daniel: But what I also liked is, how to have that discussion. I think there's so much shame for men. There's this, I don't know if it's completely acceptable. But it tends to be more acceptable to not want to have sex and so when the higher desire partner wants to have better sex or more connecting sex, it's viewed as selfish, carnal. And so the man and the relationship is experiencing these feelings of guilt, embarrassment. Yes, I wanna have more sex, I wanna have this type of sex. And so they're shutting themselves down, before they even have that conversation with their wife. But I like how you said that when you can frame it, put all other frustrations aside.

0:27:32 Daniel: A lot of times this conversation happens in connection to so many things kids, busy life, stresses and then we throw in, "Well we're not even having sex anymore." or "That's all you want." But to be able to have that dedicated conversation and say, "Sweetheart, I love you and I want this area of our life to be better." and I keep it within that context, I think, can set each other up for success and to be able to address those issues better. I really like that insight there.

0:28:01 Leanne: And the reason why I wish I could sit down and talk to the wives is, I think we as wives, really don't understand how that oftentimes, not in every marriage, but statistically are more regularly that a husband, the way he gives love and receives love is through physical intimacy. He feels it on a very deep level. And we as wives do not understand that. I think society has conditioned us to believe that men are just sex pots and that's all they want is sex. They just wanna use women's bodies to get their own physical pleasure and I don't think that's true at all. I mean, it can be true for some people, that they're selfish and they use their sexuality in selfish ways. But I really believe for the most part that men, that's how they are wired, is to love deeply and give love deeply, to feel love deeply and give love deeply through their sexuality.

0:29:01 Leanne: And when I grew to really understand that, that's what changed for me. A big thing in the bedroom like that night when I felt the goodness coming from him, it's because I wasn't just being like yes my husband is having sex with me. I felt on a deep level what he was offering to me from every fiber of his being. When you can receive that as a woman, it is amazing and beautiful. And so I wish women could understand it and calm down their anxiety surrounding their husband sexuality and stop putting a label on what it is that they're wanting from... And open up their heart to the fact that your husband just wants to really love you deeply. That helped for me a lot.

0:29:45 Daniel: I love this so much because one of my mentors in this field has often said, "Who is your sexual role model?" And I think that's one of the biggest obstacles that we face both men and women in relationships is, you're doing something tremendous for women right now, you're providing, whether you like it or not, you're providing a healthy role model, and the journey you took to get there. It's one thing to hear you can have an amazing sex life, but what does that really mean when all your definition right now is around sex, your sexual relationship is shame, pain and bearable at times. What is it to even mean when we say a thriving healthy sex life?

0:30:30 Daniel: I think, a lot of people think... Oh, just more sex. They don't understand what you're actually saying here is a beautiful, profound connection. Which is exactly what they're desiring and is being hindered because they can't see that. But the same thing for men, and unfortunately I think a lot of men get into this place that thinking just like women, sex is bad, but yet they have these urges and desires, and they don't know how to manage them. And then they start to view them cells in the way that they've been told to view themselves.

0:31:02 Daniel: It's bad, it's dirty, they take on that definition so they don't even engage in the conversation. And I'll tell you from personal experience because we don't have sexual role models and we don't understand what healthy sex looks like. Which is a variety of experiences, based on couples personalities, cultures and their relationship with the Lord. I didn't know what I wanted. And so it was a frustrating conversation to have, because even though my wife was willing to listen and not just willing, but embracing it. I didn't know what to say because I didn't know what I, I think I knew what I wanted in a relationship, in a sexual relationship. But then I had to come to the understanding to be able to explain, you know what, this is what I'm curious about, I'm wondering if this will work well for me.

0:31:49 Daniel: And for you, let's reevaluate because I think we finally have this big conversation, this vulnerable conversation where you're now in a place to have that conversation and your husband is, "What do I say? I just want better sex. And this is how I think we're gonna get there and then we hold to that." It's like, "You don't want that? Well, you know what? I just discovered what I wanted in the relationship was to be able to explore that with you. It really had little to do with the actual physical act but now I feel safe." I could tell you, I'm really curious about this and I'm wondering if this will help in our relationship and not be shut down or viewed as selfish or promiscuous or dirty. I know in my personal experience that allowed me to at least redefine what a sexual relationship looked like because I really didn't know, I had no idea. And where do you begin with that? Even when your wife is willing to have that discussion, I think it's a daunting and scary experience but allowing yourself to reevaluate, come back and discuss, and I think that's been the most bonding opportunities with my wife is just being able to feel like we can openly discuss it. What's your experience around that? Or does that resonate with you?

0:33:03 Leanne: Yeah, when I was starting to work through all these, all the things that like the breaks that I had on, like the Good Girl Syndrome, marrying of the spiritual and sexual and just all that. When I was really starting to work through those and be able to push each one aside as I work through. We started practicing, we had sex every day, every single day for probably about six weeks and it really was a learning, and a growing, and a discovery time for the two of us. Just like what does this look like? What does this sexual relationship between the two of us? What's it gonna look like? And so, we practiced and try things and for six weeks, every single day, and it was a great learning experience for both of us, where we both felt free to express our desires and discover each other in a sexual way.

0:34:03 Daniel: What made you think of that? I mean was that just something that you randomly thought of says, "Hey, let's do this every day for six weeks and see what happens." Or where did you get that idea from?

0:34:13 Leanne: We just started practicing and it just happened. [chuckle] It is not, but that's okay. And it's funny and I have to say this. So, just recently in general conference the one man gave the talk about reading the Scripture and suddenly he's like, "Every day, every day, every day." And my husband and I left because when we were practicing, when we would start again my husband was like joking he got, "Every day, every day, every day." And so that just made us laugh so much when it came up on general conference and we looked at each other 'cause it's just kind of something cute that you would say to me as we were practicing, but we never like said, "Here's the timeframe, we're gonna do this for six weeks. Is just happened that I think we were just both excited that we were working on it, that we were discovering each other, it was exciting for us.

0:35:05 Daniel: You took away in that strategy, if we called this pursuer and avoider dynamic where he's pursuing and you're avoiding and you created as a both come together, you're treating each other as equals. I think that's crucial, I think there's this... As we engage into this discovery mode, we pay a little bit more tension like you've been cautioning people to do, to put aside your fears, but there's still that fear there that they want to respect and they don't jump in like that. And I think that's really important, I think we're preparing a little too much emotionally to go into sex and instead view it as, "Let's learn, let's try this, let's schedule it, let's at least plan for it in some way and make it a mutual goal." And that eliminates a lack of predictability, right now, at least at that point in your relationship, what I'm hearing is there's so much unpredictability and there's so much harder and discovery that need to happen that you didn't wanna give heed to that ambiguity anymore. You said, "Let's do this every day. Let's create some predictability, let's be a team on this and come together." Am I hearing you right?

0:36:16 Leanne: Mm-hmm. And one thing I wanna say too about that pursuer and... I, a couple of years before that, one thing that we did that helps us transition then 'cause like I said I did want to want sex. I did try different things throughout our marriage to figure things out. But one thing that was helpful for me is Laura Brotherson does talk about how sometimes husbands and wives can create anxiety within each other and by the husband-wife, she calls it the Hungry Dog Syndrome where the husband like it's been a while since he's had sex and he wants it, and he's requesting it and his wife doesn't want it, and so we're creating this hungry dog, she calls it syndrome, where he's chasing after her and looking for any cues that she's throwing him that he might get lucky that night.

0:37:09 Daniel: Oh, yeah.

0:37:10 Leanne: And he gets irritable and cranky because he's not getting his need's man and he's not being able to be close to his wife in the way that he wants, and so he gets cranky but the more he pursues her and chases after her, the more anxiety is created in her and so she is the avoiding wife, she will avoid touch, she will avoid flirting, she'll avoid any flirty looks from him, because she doesn't wanna send him a message in any way, shape, or form that he might get lucky. And so you're creating this anxiety within each other outside of the bedroom where he's chasing it, she's running all the time. And so, I came to my husband one day and I just came up with this on my own, I sat down with him and I said, "Okay, I need to learn to not run from you, any time you go to hug me or touch me." If I'm at the kitchen sink and he comes up and fondles me, I would elbow him like, "Stop, you always have to be touching me." I can't even begin to tell you how many times I said, "Can you not just love me for my brain? Does it always have to be about my body?" I've said that so many times to him.

0:38:12 Leanne: Why does it always have to be about my body? And the sad thing is he just wanted to be affectionate with me, he just wanted to love me, he just wanted to come and connect with me. But I always perceived it as, "This is sexual, so stop." So anyway, I sat down with him and I said, "I need to learn to stop running," and so at that time, what I said was, "Can we please schedule sex? How many days a week would you like to have sex?" And so we negotiated how many days that would be and we said, "Okay," then I said, "Which days are those?" And so we decided upon which two days of the week those were gonna be. And I said, "Okay, I promise you that on those two days I will say yes, we will have sex." But on the other days outside of the bedroom or even inside the bedroom, no matter how much touch we give each other you cannot ask me for sex. But I need to learn to become comfortable kissing you, embracing you, allowing you to touch me in those fondling ways, and I need to learn to be able to calm my anxieties down around those types of touches. And I said, "Even if we full-on make-out on the couch, you cannot ask me for sex if it's a non-sex day," so that I can learn to be comfortable with touch, with your touch, with your wanting to be just intimate with me just through touch that's not sexual in nature.

0:39:34 Daniel: I can't tell you how successful that strategy is. Too many people feel like, "Well that's gonna kill the mood and the desire by scheduling. And I will even depending on the relationship, tell them to schedule specifically when you're gonna do it, 9 o'clock at night, 8 o'clock in the morning, otherwise we find we push it out, but not everybody has to do that. Like your approach generally saying, "Tuesdays and Thursdays, for example, are our sex days and it will happen that day," that allows us to put aside our anxieties. Okay, I'm not gonna engage 'cause as you said, "This sexual dynamic becomes a pursuer and an avoider experience where the man is looking for every clue, looking for all those micro expressions. Is this a flirt or is she just being nice with me? Can I go in for a loving touch? And then it feels like groping, it feels like inappropriate, it feels like objecting, and then it shuts down the loving engagement that the the husband is trying to express. But by setting up a specific time we're able to put those anxieties aside. Okay, I don't have to worry about being grabbed today, randomly, or I don't have to worry about constantly looking at my wife.

0:40:41 Daniel: Is this the right time? Is she giving me a clue? We put all that stress aside, so we've been able to eliminate that stress. We've already got too much stress in our relationship, and then to be able to engage, and follow through with that. And a lot of couples feel like that kills the romance. And so the first question I ask is, "Are you having romance right now? [chuckle] No, no, none. And so being able to create that predictability will then allow for romance to happen. And so you can create, so excellent approach. Absolutely excellent.

0:41:15 Leanne: Because I found that in doing that, being able to calm down that anxiety, then when he did come up, for instance, behind me at the kitchen sink and give me a hug and then maybe even fondled me a little bit. I was able to learn to fold into that touch, to really embrace that and appreciate it, and just know that he just was wanting my attention. He was wanting to be affectionate with me, and I was able to fold into that instead of being angry, "Ahh he wants sex with me tonight," it's like, "Nope, it's not a sex night," I can fold into this, he's just wanting a moment with me at the kitchen sink. So that helped a lot, and that was a couple of years before the whole exercise of every day. And now it's not even a thought, we engage in all kinds of touch and flirting, and it's not even a worry in either one of our minds if it will or will not lead to the bedroom. Our relationship now it's beautiful, it's wonderful. All of it is just embraced and cherished.

0:42:19 Daniel: Do you have any words of advice or cautions that you've learned from your relationship that you feel is important to share that we haven't addressed yet?

0:42:28 Leanne: Any cautions?

0:42:29 Daniel: Yeah, maybe reflecting on your own approach, What words of advice would you give the wives who are maybe willing to, "Okay, this is scary for me, I wanna open up and embrace my husband's sexual touches." Is there any words of caution around that? Do you feel like that can go wrong? Or did it go wrong for you at any point? Or any other aspects of your sexual relationship and self-discovery?

0:42:55 Leanne: I definitely feel like there are still boundaries. And I still give myself permission if there's a certain thing I don't like, I voice it. Just because we're being more open and accepting, you still have your boundaries and it is absolutely okay to voice your boundaries and say, "I don't care for that, or I don't like when you touch me in that certain way it really bothered me because of the," is that what you mean?

0:43:22 Daniel: Yeah, that's a great clarification. 'Cause I don't want the listeners to think, "Okay, I'm going to follow Leanne's example and just give myself completely over to my husband's sexual desires and anything goes. You still get that right to say, "I'm uncomfortable with this, I'm not sure about this, I'm not ready for that." Whatever that boundary looks like. And so how do you go about or how would you recommend going about that? 'cause it could be a fine line at times, right? You're wanting to explore, but you also don't wanna shut your partner down. How do you have that communication or to navigate that, that disinterest or that boundary without shutting down, or regressing in your recovery?

0:44:06 Leanne: Well, for me, we have progressed so far that I do it just because of the personality that I am. I kinda do it in a blunt, but jokey way, I will say to him, "I am not a milk cow. Please don't touch me that way. It makes me feel like a milk cow."

0:44:26 Leanne: Like, stuff like that. Because we've come so far that it's not... We know where we are.

0:44:33 Daniel: It's not rejection.

0:44:33 Leanne: No, it's not rejection at all because he knows that nine times out of 10 the way he touches me I love and I accept, and I revel in. But if there's a certain way I'll be like, "Hey, that doesn't feel good to me," and sometimes I'll make a joke out of it, but sometimes, I'm like... But I would say though in the bedroom, this is like outside of the bedroom, but in the bedroom when you're trying new things I definitely am more tender, or more thoughtful of his feelings, like make sure just, "Why don't you try it this way 'cause that way is hurting me a little bit." Or I'm more careful with how I... So just because that is so vulnerable place to be in the... You're all there, your whole body, all of you is there. And so I feel like more of a sacred space. I'm definitely more careful.

0:45:22 Daniel: And I think husbands need to embrace the idea once you get to at least this level of sexual development and healthy approach. Recognizing it's not a rebuke, it's not a criticism. It's I want you to pleasure me, and if you're willing I could give you ideas on what will help, and right now that's not helping. And being able to embrace that as a learning tool and as a connecting tool as opposed to filling criticized and shut down. Because I think husbands too often will hear it, "Stop doing that," and they stop everything or they give up, or whatever.

0:46:04 Leanne: I think husbands they get such a bad rap. It just makes me so sad. But I think they are very sensitive in this area. They feel like they're, society tells them that they should be these sexual experts who should automatically know how to please a woman or whatever. And it opens them up to, there's a lot of pressure that they feel to try to please their wives. And then I wanna talk about that for a minute, so the learning each other sexually. Too often we think that men just need to automatically know what their wives would want. And recently, I've heard this idea and concept and it's absolutely true, and made so much such in my head. You're the only one that's in charge of your sexual pleasure, you're in charge of it because you're the only one that's in your head and inside your body. Your husband's not, he doesn't know what you're thinking. He doesn't know what you're feeling inside of your body. And so yes he's trying to pleasure you, but if you don't voice if that's pleasurable or not he's not gonna know. And so it takes a lot of communication. And if a wife is not receiving, if she's unhappy with her sex life and basically all they're having his intercourse because she hasn't voiced anything different and she hates it and resents it.

0:47:36 Leanne: Well, my question to them is, "Have you asked for anything different? Because how is he supposed to know that you want anything different? And I think me, I talked about this in my last podcast. But men and women really do need to understand each other sexualities and how we pick, and that women tend to be more emotional. And if my emotional needs were not being meet outside the bedroom, then it is hard for me to then be physical with my husband. If I feel like he was being, that he was mean to me on a certain day, or just really being grumpy and kinda taking it out on me, I'm gonna be less inclined to want to then be physical with him in the bedroom if he asks me for it. It's like, "You were kind of a jerk today, I'm not feeling emotionally connected to you because you hurt my feelings." But sometimes maybe we need to get to the bottom of that."Have you had a rough day? You seem really stressed today. Can I help you with that at all? Can we talk about that?" And maybe it's the end of the day and he answers that conversation, "Yes, he was really stressed and yes he would love to be with us intimately to get some tenderness from us to relieve that stress." And so yes, we can't completely shut him down because they were barking outside the bedroom.

0:48:55 Leanne: But I think men also has a duty to understand that it's important for women to feel connected on emotional level with their husbands in order to be able to be intimate in the bedroom. But then on the other hand, women need to understand that men that's the way they connect with you is through the physical. That's the way they show you that they love you and you need to love and embrace that.

0:49:16 Leanne: And women and men we've talked about it before, we need to figure out what each other likes. We need to have some [0:49:23] ____ focused exercises within our marriage where you're just really discovering each other's bodies, and discovering what each other likes. That needs to be happening. Women need to figure out what they love, so do men. And we need to come together as a couple and figure out and what then together we can do to bring the most pleasure to each other in all aspects, in the four-levels, spiritual, mental, emotional, bring all that together, and figure it out. And it's a journey. I think people think it's gonna happen overnight. It is not, it doesn't happen overnight. It's a journey and you need to embrace it as a journey. This is a journey of discovery that we are on together, and embrace it and be excited about it.

0:50:09 Daniel: And it never ends, because we're constantly changing...

0:50:13 Leanne: No.

0:50:13 Daniel: As human beings biologically, emotionally, stress, whatever. And so if we think, "Oh that's a mistake," we finally feel like we've had some breakthroughs we enjoy sex this way, and I think that's why a lot of couples get stuck in a rut and repeating certain routine sexual behaviors is 'cause we knew it worked then, but it still needs to be discovered. Is this still working and explore that and also a thought, going back to what you're saying about if he's grumpy, I actually recommend that you first have sex and I think it goes along with this concept of being responsible for your own sexual arousal, not making somebody else a partner or excuse me, relying on somebody else for your arousal. There is definitely a need for your partner to be loving and kind to you to help that along, but I've often suggested have sex and then have that conversation of, you appeared grumpy today, and it was kind of hard to be around that. Can we talk about that? And you'll find in almost every situation, after you have sex it's much easier to have that conversation. Much, much easier and to recover and reduce that type of behavior.

0:51:33 Leanne: Sex really is or can be kind of a bomb, like a healing bomb for couples. It's a beautiful thing, it really is. It's such a beautiful gift that God has given to couples, and it breaks my heart to see all the struggle that surrounds it. Because when the barriers can be broken down and the husbands and wives can really work on this part of their relationship, it really is a healing bomb for the rest of their relationship. It's like the crowning jewel and it breaks my heart when so many couples just struggle with it, and so many women just shut it down. Not understanding it at all, not understanding what it can be. It just, it really makes me sad.

0:52:39 Daniel: I think we focus a lot on how the adversary can corrupt the sexual experience, and we generally view that in the context of perverting it in physical acts. But the one aspect that the adversary tries to destroy sexuality is by avoiding it. If he can't corrupt it, then avoid it. I refer to that as sexual silence, and that can take on many, many forms. Whether it's just not talking about, or avoiding it, or saying a certain behavior is bad, it shuts it down and it creates that divisiveness. But if we're able to use sex in a way to communicate we could bring each other together. And that's the beauty that I hear you saying over and over today.

0:53:31 Leanne: I fully believe, my husband I have talked about this very thing quite often. The adversary, before we're married he will tempt us with trying to get us to have sex outside of marriage because after we're married he will try to get us to stop having sex. It is so true because he knows that will reek havoc within a marriage, and he doesn't care how he destroys a person. He doesn't care if he's having you have sex outside of marriage, or get you to stop having sex inside a marriage. He'll try to destroy people in any way he can, and he knows how powerful a marriage is when they can be deeply connected sexually. A marriage that is truly intimate in all levels of their marriage, that is a powerful marriage, and satan knows that, and he will try to get at it in any way you can. And the biggest way he does it is by shutting down sexuality. I firmly believe that.

0:54:28 Daniel: Absolutely. Leanne, you've been so insightful. Is there any other things that you would like to address before we end today's podcast?

0:54:37 Leanne: Okay, one more thing really, really fast.

0:54:39 Daniel: Absolutely, take your time.

0:54:40 Leanne: Can I just say that having kids is really tiring. And my husband and I weren't able to have children, but we adopted two children. And sex and being able to work on your life, sex life, it gets easier, and easier as the kids get older and older. And so I would just say give yourself grace in this area. Both husbands and wives need to realize that kids can be exhausting, and there's seasons of our lives that are harder for us to work on our sex lives just because of exhaustion. There are two things that kill desire the most, one is exhaustion, and the other one is being pressured. If you feel pressured to have sex or if you are exhausted those are the two main killers of desire. And so I just wanna say, just know that and work through that. It's gonna be tricky to work through when your kids are small, especially, but just try to keep working on that as much as you can. And just keep looking forward to that day, it's gonna get easier, it's gonna get easier. And now that we're empty nesters it's amazing because we work on it whenever we want. But we had something to work on it on the other side of our kids being gone, like we started working on this a couple of years ago. And so we weren't staring at each other when both of our kids are gone saying, "We don't know who we are anymore. Like who are you?

0:56:17 Leanne: I haven't been creating this relationship with you all these years. I don't even know you." And husbands, I didn't realize how hard kids were until I had my little grand baby for two weeks, a couple of weeks ago, and he kicked my butt. I had him for two weeks and I was exhausted, and it really made me appreciate again young mothers. And so husbands just step in where you can to help her, especially if it's a night that you know you're gonna have sex. Help her get the kids to bed, help her with dinner, help her relieve some of that exhaustion, so she has some energy left for you at the end, 'cause honestly kids can be exhausting.

0:57:04 Daniel: Yes, they can be.

0:57:05 Leanne: I discovered that. [chuckle]

0:57:07 Daniel: Absolutely.

0:57:07 Leanne: I discovered that a couple of weeks ago. I was like, "Oh my God."

0:57:09 Daniel: In with those, to borrow this idea that we talked about earlier. Even in my opinion, I find that with kids scheduling is even more important 'cause you can do it during nap time time, and create some sort of expectation around that, positive expectation with your spouse, so that you don't feel like you're being demanded from constantly. Thank you Leanne. I really appreciate you coming on and sharing more of your story, thank you.

0:57:38 Leanne: Can I say one more thing really, really fast.

0:57:40 Daniel: Of course. Go for it.

0:57:41 Leanne: Okay, one thing that helped me the most and then I'll be done. It's been bugging me 'cause I knew I wanted to say it and I couldn't remember what it was. Because men and women's desire is so different, there's responsive desire versus, what's the other one? I'm sure you know it, responsive versus spontaneous. So a husband is more spontaneous desire, when he thinks about sex he's ready to go right then, and a woman is more responsive, she kinda has to kinda start being intimate and then the desire comes. And so the biggest thing that helped for me was to always have a pilot light lit with inside of me. And what the pilot light says to me is that, "I am so connected to you, and I want to be known by you, and I want you to know me, and I wanna connect on a deep level, we are already connected on that deep level." And so that pilot light is always lit and whenever my husband wants to be intimate or whatever, and I initiate just as much as he does now. But whenever he does want to initiate the answer is always yes because that pilot light is like, "Yup," and I know it will take me a little bit to get in the mood, like right now I'm not sexually feeling it in this moment. I'm not turned on in this moment, but I know once we get started it will come.

0:58:56 Leanne: And I think so often women are like, "I just don't have a sex drive, I just don't think about it. I don't have a sex drive." Well it's 'cause we're created differently. We're responsive, we have to be talked into sex, or feel start to engage and then the response comes. And so, I think, we as women we need to remember that. You might not feel like you're in the mood right now, but start being intimate and you'll find that not too long into it you're in the mood. And so keeping that pilot light always lit for me is very helpful.

0:59:45 Daniel: I think that was a wonderful way to end us. Thank you, I appreciate your time.

0:59:52 Leanne: Yup, yup. Thank you.

0:59:53 Daniel: Alright.

Part 1-2: How Understanding My Husband’s Pornography Consumption Led to Healthy Dialogue and Healing

Leanne is a wife of 31 years. She has 2 children who are both married. She is the grandmother of one. She is a retired preschool teacher of 17 years. She is enjoying her season of time with her husband as an empty nester.

 **Note from Leanne, please read prior to listening: I think there might be some confusion in our story for some people. Some people I think believe that we started to view pornography together as a couple. That is not what happened at all. That day that I sat down with him and opened my heart to understand what was driving him to look was the last day that he viewed it. So I just want to clarify that.

When my husband and I started the journey of turning towards each other in all of the aspects of our lives and began to create a truly intimate marriage, the “need” for my husband to turn to porn left him. And my “need” to constantly check up on him left me. And I was healed from being stuck in betrayal trauma. The connection that we made in turning towards one another to proactively create what we really wanted for our marriage was the answer to porn not being an issue for either of us from that point forward. Turning towards each other healed both of us.**

Transcript:

[music]

00:02 Voice Over: Welcome to Improving Intimacy, a podcast to help single and married Latter-Day Saints strengthen their family connections and marriages. Daniel A. Burgess is the host of Improving Intimacy. Daniel's a marriage and family therapist, father, husband, and author. Here's Daniel in this episode of Improving Intimacy.

00:21 Daniel A Burgess: Welcome to another episode of Improving Intimacy. Today we have Leanne on the line. I'm excited to talk with her. I came across her in our Improving Intimacy group on Facebook and I was excited to read the things that she had presented and I would love to explore that with her today. But before we get going, Leanne, tell us a little about yourself.

00:40 Leanne: Okay. First off, thanks for having me on your show. I've been married for 31 years. I have two daughters who are both married. I am a recent grandma of about a year, and I am an active member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints and I serve in my Stake Relief Society presidency, so that's been a fun calling for me, for about the past year. And I'm a retired pre-school teacher, had my own preschool business for 17 years and retired about two years ago.

01:12 DB: Oh my goodness. What's it like being in retirement now?

01:15 Leanne: It's nice. I like it. [chuckle]

01:17 DB: Do you get to do whatever you want?

01:19 Leanne: Yep. [chuckle]

01:20 DB: Good, good.

01:22 Leanne: Yep.

01:22 DB: Well, one of the reasons why I'm having you on is you're an example of what I was hoping would happen in the Improving Intimacy Facebook group. You're coming in, you're sharing your personal journey, your vulnerableness, you're sharing the difficulties that you went through in your relationship, and you're doing it in a way that's, at least to me, it seems like it's improving yourself and other people are listening. And the posts that you've made over the last few months that you've been in the group have meant a lot to me as you're one of these individuals who clearly have been through a lot in your marriage, in your life, and you're presenting this information from a self-reflective perspective. I think a lot of us get in this habit of, "What do we wish our spouse would do?"

02:09 DB: And one of the things I found really valuable from you was, "Here was my journey from my perspective, and what I did to address these difficult topics." And I would love to explore that a little bit more with you. Do you mind telling us all what your journey was like? Where were you 10-15 years ago in your relationship, what did it look like, and what brought you to this point? I know that's a big question, but what do you feel is important for us to know about that journey?

02:37 Leanne: Okay. So I'm gonna go back a little bit further in 10 or 15 years ago just so that people can get an understanding of me. I had a really traumatic childhood and teenage years. And as a child and as a teenager, I was very, very timid, pretty much afraid of my own shadow type of child; was very, very timid. But there was a lot of trauma that happened in my childhood. And so, when I came out of that and became an adult, I came away from that with the determination that I was never gonna allow anyone to ever hurt me again. As a child and as a teenager, I felt like I didn't have a lot of control over the things that happened in my life. And as an adult, I felt like I was gonna take control of what happened in my life. And so, I became, in my marriage, very early on, extremely defensive. I kind of came into it with my claws out as a way to protect myself.

03:43 Leanne: And so, early on in our marriage, whenever I felt like I got my feelings hurt or whatever, I immediately would lash out, sometimes very brutally. And just not lash out physically but lash out with my words, and my anger, and it all stemmed from a place of protection. I really was trying to protect myself. And there was one incident... So now, we'll fast-forward several years into my marriage, probably 15 years into my marriage, just to kind of explain this. I asked my husband if he would help me make dinner. And he came in, and I asked if he would drain the spaghetti noodles, and so he did. And I do it with a strainer, and he did it by putting a lid on the pot and draining it that way, and I completely freaked out. And I said, "That is not the way we drain spaghetti noodles, that's not even right." And I like completely, completely freaked out. And so he just quietly set the pot down and left the kitchen.

04:51 Leanne: And as I watched him walk away, I was like, "What in the world am I doing? It's spaghetti. Who cares? It doesn't matter. There's not a right or a wrong way to drain spaghetti." And it was in that moment that I realized I needed help. I had become so controlling in our marriage that even to the point that I controlled how he was gonna drain spaghetti noodles, and I realized in that moment how ridiculous that was.

05:24 DB: So you had childhood trauma, and that was brought into your relationship as trauma does, but the insight that you're having, I'm curious about that. Because usually, couples or individuals who struggle with this type of lashing out, may be vaguely aware of it, but not... It sounds like you had, was it maybe an epiphany or were you aware that this was a problem before the spaghetti noodle incident or was that kind of the moment of discovery for you? What was your insight like with your struggles?

05:58 Leanne: I definitely realized it over time, and I think I just gave myself the excuse of, "I was protecting myself." But in that moment with the spaghetti noodles, I think that's what made me realize, because honestly, spaghetti noodles is so insignificant. But because I made such a big deal out of it, I realized just how serious my issues were, because I wouldn't freak out so much if it weren't serious over such a small thing and I realized that in that moment. And so, that's when I started to go to counseling. And when I went to counseling, that's where I learned that I had anxiety. I didn't realize that I had anxiety before, like a true anxiety disorder. I had episodes where I would have panic attacks before and I got help for the panic attacks, but I didn't realize up until that point that I truly had an anxiety disorder.

07:00 Leanne: And so, the therapist explained to me that with anxiety, in order to keep myself safe and level, I was very controlling. Because with the anxiety, I tried to put everything into a box because if I could control everything and keep it in a box, then I felt safe. And so, she explained to me that that's what I was doing, that's why I was controlling; trying to control my husband, trying to control my kids, is so that I could keep my world safe and to feel like my world could stay sane.

07:34 DB: Was that a scary realization for you or was it one of those discoveries like, "Oh, this makes sense. Now, I know what to do going forward."?

07:43 Leanne: It made sense. It made a lot of sense to me. But still, after explaining that to me and after truly learning that I had an anxiety disorder, I still continued to control, somewhat. I mean, I tried to get better, but I still also controlled.

08:03 DB: Oh, of course.

08:03 Leanne: And this time, though, I gave myself a different excuse. I gave the excuse of, "I have a mental disorder, and so I'm still okay." I still justify it, I can't help it. It's my anxiety. I can't help that I'm controlling. It's to soothe my anxiety.

08:23 DB: So whereas, before, it was you were controlling things without really an understanding of your anxiety. But now, it was comforting to know what was happening and it made sense, but you're now blaming or excusing it, because of that.

08:38 Leanne: Yeah. Yeah. And then one night, there was an incident that happened between my husband and I, and this incident, I don't wanna go into detail with. Some of the other ones, I will later on, but there was an incident that happened one evening that really shook both of us to the core. And when it happened, all of a sudden, I looked at him and realized how deeply I truly did love him, and the thought that came into my mind very strongly was, "He is not the enemy." And in that moment, I realized that because of all the hurt and the trauma that happened as a child, I was trying to protect myself from him even. And I realized in that moment, he was not the one that hurt me. He was not the one that did all that damage to me as a child and as a teenager. He was not the enemy, and in that moment, I realized that I didn't wanna treat him like that ever again. I don't want to ever feel like I needed to protect myself from him. And so, that was a huge moment in our marriage, and it shook him, too.

10:04 DB: How much was your husband a part of this journey and discovery of yours? You went to the therapist. Was this an individual...

10:12 Leanne: Yes, it was individual.

10:14 DB: And not a couples? And were you sharing with him or was he just seeing these changes? Was this a discovery process with him also?

10:21 Leanne: I definitely shared with him. Everything I was learning in counseling, I would share with him. And so he was definitely kept aware of everything I was going through and he knew all about my childhood, like he knew everything that happened with me. We've always talked and communicated, but in that moment, I felt like it was a moment that we could either allow a wall, a really big wall, to be built between us. And it could be the beginning of us really turning away from each other and kind of ending our marriage or it was a situation where it kinda was staring us in the face, like, "What do you wanna do? You have a decision to make." And we chose to turn towards each other.

11:08 Leanne: So we really started, at that point, moving forward, like really trying to be better communicators and try to be softer with each other and be kinder. And I was able to learn from that point forward. When I felt the urge to control, I felt my anxiety well up, I felt that urge to control, I was then self-aware enough. That situation really caused me to be self-aware. And from that moment forward, I was able to stop myself when I felt the anxiety well up, when I felt the need to control, I could stop myself and say, "No. What is more important in this moment? This thing that you're starting to want to control or Wayne? What is the more important thing to you in this moment?" And every time, I was able to pick my husband. And so, I could calm myself down and be like, "This does not matter." And I was able either to approach it more calmly or drop it all together 'cause it really wasn't important.

12:19 DB: I'm sure there's listeners thinking, "That's a great discovery. How did you do that?" It's one thing to have the insight and another to apply that knowledge. Was there any type of methods that you used to not only be aware of what's happening with your anxiety, but to control your controlling behavior? Was there any kind of meditation or thought exercise? You did mention, "Which one's more important?" Did that alone help reduce the anxiety or was there additional steps?

12:52 Leanne: I feel like, for me, that helped because I'm very much a self-aware person. And even in the years of lashing out, I knew what I was doing. I just gave myself the excuse to do it anyway.

13:09 DB: You're finding reasons to justify it.

13:12 Leanne: Mm-hmm.

13:13 DB: You're asking yourself, "Which one's more important?" now, so you're putting the responsibility on yourself to choose a new path. That's powerful.

13:22 Leanne: Yup, and it is powerful. It is powerful to take control because really, you are the only one that has control of you. And it's powerful when you realize that and really apply that in your life, like really powerful things can happen for you when you realize you have the control and stop justifying.

13:47 DB: Is there an example that you feel comfortable in sharing and how this played out with you and your husband? Maybe something very difficult that you two had to address.

13:55 Leanne: Yes. So this is where I kinda wanted to switch gears anyway, so I was... I'm glad you asked that. So the other hard thing that we faced in our marriage, my mental health, but then, and my childhood trauma. But the other thing we faced was I had a huge struggle with physical intimacy in my marriage. Because of some things that happened during my childhood years, and my teenage years, and then also just growing up in the church and learning about intimacy and having young women lessons about the chewed piece of gum and things, I came into a marriage really suffering hard with the good girl syndrome. I really had a hard time with intimacy.

14:42 Leanne: I felt very naughty soon after we were married. I felt like it was dirty and icky, and I just really didn't want any part of it. And so, six months into our marriage, I shut it all down, and I would not allow any physical intimacy for the next six months. So here's this newly-wed couple thinking they were excited to be married and excited to be... Have a physical relationship, and then I discover I hated it, and I shut it down six months in, and that was devastating to my husband. That was really hard for him to go through. And then over the course of time, we picked back up. We were physically having sex again, but I still struggled for years and years and years, I struggled. It took me 10 years to learn... To finally have an orgasm. But even after learning that, how to finally be able to do that, I still did not enjoy physical intimacy at all.

15:35 DB: It wasn't just feeling guilty, you didn't get pleasure from intimacy.

15:39 Leanne: No, no. And even though, that was so hard for my husband to understand 'cause even after I learned how to have an orgasm, he was so confused because I still hated sex so much. And he's like, "I don't understand how you can hate it so much when you can orgasm. To me, you're receiving physical pleasure, like you're having an orgasm. Why don't you like it? Why don't you enjoy it?" And it's because in my mind, I still felt like it was just dirty, and naughty, and basically, it was duty sex. But yeah, even in the duty sex, it's like, "Okay, I'll have duty sex with you, but I'm still not gonna walk away with it with at least having an organ." I at least want some physical pleasure from it if I'm gonna do it, but I still was not connected at all. Any time we would try anything new, I felt extreme guilt. I felt dirty, I felt if I enjoyed it at all, I was like a prostitute.

16:37 DB: Was this guilt driving you to confess to the bishop or was this something you were privately, and/or maybe with your husband suffering from?

16:46 Leanne: Just private. Just my husband and I. When we would be having sex, I would constantly be telling him to hurry. "Hurry, you're enjoying it too much." I would say that to him, "You're enjoying it too much, hurry." And it was so hurtful to him because he didn't wanna just to have sex with my body. He wanted to connect and I just couldn't get there. And so, a couple years into our marriage, I discovered... And I appreciate my husband for giving me permission to share this part of our story 'cause this isn't easy to be open and vulnerable. I'm way more open and vulnerable a person he is. And so, I asked him if I could share what I was gonna share today and he said yes. He said, "As hard as it is to have this be out there and be public, if our journey can help other couples out there, I'm willing to share this," so I appreciate that he was willing to let me talk about this. But I discovered a couple of years into our marriage that he was viewing pornography. And of course, I freaked out, and went into betrayal trauma and, "Why are you looking at that and why am I not enough?" And, "We're having sex, why do you think you need to go to that?"

18:01 Leanne: So, over the next... Gosh, we were married for 31 years, so 25 years, off and on, I would catch him again. And I would go through the same thing, freak out and cry and, "Why are you doing this?" And, "Why am I not enough?" And, "We're having sex, why isn't that enough for you?" And after the incident... And the other thing, too, that was super, super hard is every time I would catch him and discover it on the computer and all that, I would approach him about it, and he would always lie. Just look me straight in the eye and lie to me about it. "No, I have been really good. You must have discovered something that was old, that... "

18:43 Leanne: And he would lie to me every time and I knew he was lying. And so then I would brood, and punish, and hold sex back from him 'cause I knew he was lying until he would finally come to me and confess. And then, I would say, "The hardest thing about this is when you lie. I feel like I could handle if you came to me and said, 'I've slipped up again, I need help. I need your help in getting through this.' I can handle that more, but you lying to me is what's the hardest." But honestly, looking back on it, I don't know if that's true. I think still, if he would've come to me before I discovered it and confessed or whatever, I still think I would've freaked out just as hard.

19:28 DB: That's huge that you recognized that and I appreciate you stating already that you have this type of insight for yourself, and I hear that a lot where the wives will say the lying is worse, and then we look at how it's been approached before. And even when the spouse comes forward, there's this brooding, there's this punishing, there's this behavior that essentially prevents or makes it increasingly more difficult for the husband to discuss or share, and that's a huge barrier and a struggle that I think a lot of couples have in developing that trust. And this lying has fostered... And I'm not suggesting in any way that it's the wife's fault that the husband lies, but the environment really does create it. And It sounds like your husband didn't wanna hurt you, at all, but something was happening and didn't wanna disappoint. And so he was defaulting to the hidden behaviors that... Is that a fair representation?

20:29 Leanne: Yes, that's exactly... Because when I would ask him, "Why do you lie, why do you lie to me about it? Just tell me." 'Cause he said, "Because I don't wanna hurt you." Because experience taught him time and time again that every time I would discover it, it would just be this huge thing and huge shaming and huge amount of guilt and guilt I would put on him, as well as just the fact that he was already feeling guilty himself for viewing it. Fast forward to after we had the big moment where I had a epiphany of, "He is not the enemy." And we were starting to really connect in a different way in our marriage, even though I was still struggling with the physical intimacy. We were starting to connect on other areas of our marriage, we were starting to be more vulnerable with each other with our feeling, and communication, and we were just really starting to turn towards each other.

21:23 Leanne: And so there was a day where I discovered, on the computer again, that he'd been looking. And immediately, my body welled up into that anxiety, and, "Here we go again." And I started to feel even more hurt because, "Here we're doing so well, we're turning towards each other, we've been making all this progress. Why is he still feeling the need to look at pornography?" And so, I felt those old feelings to well up and I stopped myself, and I said, "No, I will not approach this in the same way that I always have, because we are starting to be different and this needs to be different." And so I approached him and told him, "I noticed that you've been viewing pornography again." And literally, I took him by the hand, and I took him to the computer, and I sat him down and I said, "I want you to show me, I wanna understand what is driving you to pornography. What are you searching for, what are you lacking in our marriage that you feel the need to search? I want you to show me."

22:34 DB: That is huge and requires a lot of courage. It's something that I've shared with clients from the beginning. If we can find this as an opportunity to connect with our partner, I'm not saying we explore the porn with them or view it with them but ask that important question, "What's driving it, what's driving you to it?" And join them in that experience and explore. Enter their mind, enter their desires and thought processes. What gave you that idea? Did you... Was that just a thought you had or were you using the techniques you were implementing to improve your connection, what allowed you to do that?

23:15 Leanne: I think it was because of the connection that we were starting to make in other areas, because of that. Other huge incident that happened: I had completely started to look at my husband differently through different eyes. And the thought just came into my mind just to ask him, "What is it?" And so we sat at the computer for a while and he showed me the person that he watched her videos the most, and he said, "I chose her because she reminds me of you." And then we actually watched one of the videos together and he said, "The other reason I chose her is because she only makes videos with her boyfriend in real-life, it's her real-life boyfriend. And the reason why I choose them is because I can see the connection and that's what I want for us." And I was so grateful in that moment as we viewed that together. Like my heart hurt for him so much, but because of how I had been to him physically all of our lives...

24:31 Leanne: And an other thing, and I don't remember where this letter came in, I stumbled upon a podcast by Jennifer Finlayson-Fife who I adore. She has turned my life around, as far as the physical intimacy part and made me able to work on that but... And to be able to work on my own sexuality. But I came upon a podcast one night where she read a letter or a letter was read from a husband whose wife absolutely hated physical intimacy and she completely shut it down in her marriage. And it was from his perspective, and how heartbroken he was and how much he loved his wife so much. But she wouldn't even discuss sex, with him, she completely shut it down, and she was like, "If you love me, you know I hate it and you wouldn't discuss it with me, anymore. If you were on a good priesthood holder, you would leave me alone about it". And as I listened to that letter, my heart went out to that husband and I just started to cry and my husband was asleep beside me in the bed, and I realized that he could've written that letter. Not to the full extent, 'cause we were having sex but he could've, in some aspect, written that letter.

25:37 Leanne: And so the combination of hearing that letter and sitting down with him, understanding what was driving him to look at pornography was huge for me to then be like, "Okay, I need to discover my own sexuality, I need to embrace it, I need to learn how to be not only okay with it, but love that part of myself. I need to figure it out." So after that, I listened to everything I could find and get my hands on from Jennifer Finlayson. I purchased two of her courses. And then last year, where I had come a long, long, long way in like two years, I actually went physically to Utah to her Art of Desire class, for the biggest reason was I wanted to meet her in person because she had changed my life and I wanted to thank her in person. So, I went to that last year and it was wonderful, and I even learned even more about myself when I went to that.

26:34 Leanne: But the other thing, too, I was learning about my sexuality, but I was also learning about his, men's sexuality. I think it's so important that husbands and wives learn not only about how we tick ourselves, how our sexuality works, but we need to learn about our spouse's sexuality. It is so important that men and women understand each other because if you don't, you're gonna butt heads all the time in that realm of your marriage 'cause you're not gonna understand, 'cause we're different. Men and women are different, we're created differently. Our sexual drives and desires and needs are different. And so that we need to discover that about each other.

27:13 Leanne: And one of the things that helped my husband is, in one of the podcasts, Dr. Fife talked about a book, She Comes First. And, some people are put off by that book because it is about oral sex, 'cause some people have a hard brake against oral sex. But for me... I read the book first. For me, the value in the book was... I feel like the first half of the book... It's a male author and I feel like he talks so much about women's sexuality, and I learned things from him even about myself. And so after I read the book, I asked my husband if he was willing to read it and he said, "Yes, I'll read it." That was huge for him and he was a different lover after that because he had an epiphany, and learned females and how females are different than males. And we think differently, and how we receive pleasure is different. And he became completely different after that. So I think it's important too that husbands learn about women's sexuality, both, it needs to go both directions. That was huge for us.

28:21 DB: Yes, what a discovery. And this is what I have often referred to is we give pornography way too much power in how we respond to it, how we interact with it. Fortunately, your husband had some level of awareness and insight also to recognize, "I'm actually craving you, and I miss you, I want you, and this is what I'm pursuing through pornography." I think that's actually a lot more common than we give men credit for. We often look at it, this is this escalating drug that's destroying people. What's it gonna do? You could've came in there and says, "This is exactly why I don't wanna be intimate, it's destroying our relationship." But you took it as an opportunity to not give pornography the power, but you gave yourself the power and him to explore and connect, and say, "What about this is important to you?" And here it set you on this course of discovery. I've seen this over and over and over again. When we give pornography the power, we blame the pornography as opposed to making sense of the human aspect of why we're doing it. We actually enable it as opposed to, like you did, turn it into your relationship. And it sounds like to me, I wanna clarify just so that the audience... I realize we have a variety of listeners here. You weren't trying to become or resemble the porn...

29:51 Leanne: No.

29:51 DB: You were recognizing your husband had desires, he wanted to connect with you in this way, and you opened up yourself so that his expression and desire could come to you, as opposed to the pornography. Is that what you're saying?

30:07 Leanne: Yes. Yes, very much so. And then once I started to work on my sexuality, we then, of course, started working as a couple on improving and truly becoming intimate in our sexual life. And it was an incredible journey, and it still is an incredible journey. But I felt like I couldn't be physical or sexual and spiritual in the same body. I couldn't understand how that worked because we're taught that we need to be virtuous and lovely and of all these things, and I couldn't marry that with then also being sexual. And so for a couple of years, I actually had to turn off my spirituality in a way, and I'm sad that I felt like I needed to do that because I know now, that I didn't need to do that. But...

31:02 DB: But what does that mean, Leanne? Did you stop going to church, or what does it mean to turn off your spirituality?

31:07 Leanne: No, I kept going to church, I kept my callings, I kept serving. I felt like if I allowed myself to feel the spirit, then anything my husband and I were trying in the bedroom, or experimenting with, or anything that we were trying in the bedroom, that I would feel guilt about it. And I did not wanna feel guilt in that part of my journey whatsoever. I wanted my husband and I to be able just to discover each other, and discover our intimate life without feeling any guilt because before any time we would try something new or anything, I felt naughty. And so, I felt like I had to shut my bedroom door, so to speak, on Heavenly Father, even, "You're not allowed in this space right now." And that... It brings me teary to think that I thought that way, that I had to shut the door on Heavenly Father because really, on the other side of it, Heavenly Father was so involved because the beauty that we created between each other, it feels celestial in nature now. And that's why it makes me feel so sad that I felt the need to do that.

32:19 DB: Leanne, this discovery is... I'm almost tempted to say unique. I think it's not as unique as I'm wanting to say, it does happen. But the level of insight that you had, you started to associate... Or not started, but you associated guilt with the Spirit, that's interesting. Was it just around sexual things, or was that a common occurrence within your life in general, just whenever you felt the Spirit, guilt accompanying it?

32:52 Leanne: I feel like it was mostly around my sexuality because... I love to feel the spirit in every other aspect of my life, I love to feel the spirit. And even in the times when I was very self-reflective and knew that I was behaving badly and knew that I was using my anxiety as an excuse or whatever, when I stopped myself in that moment, and changed, then reacted better and differently, I knew it was the Spirit helping me. And so I appreciated that, I love the spirit in my life that was helping me work on myself and helping me to self-reflect. But in the bedroom, I think it wasn't the Spirit making me feel guilty, but I thought it was.

33:42 DB: Mm-hmm. Thank you for that clarification. This is actually what I struggle with teenagers the most with. As I work with them to overcome their usage of pornography and out of control behaviors around sexual behaviors including masturbation, when we get them to a good place, they have clarity, the Lord is communicating to 'em the interventions that we use and us working with that teenager in a sexually healthy way helping them to understand their sexual health, help them understand their desires, they have clarity around it and they know that God is answering their prayers in this process. But inevitably, they will come in and say things like, "I can't do this 'cause it feels weird, I can't do this because I feel guilty." And then, we retrace the steps and we say, "You were feeling confirmation from the Lord, you were making progress. Where is this guilt coming from?" "I shouldn't feel this way, it's telling me the spirit isn't here." And so they start to have this discovery where what they were feeling wasn't entirely the spirit, it's what they thought was the spirit.

35:02 DB: And so this process you went through is so interesting to me because the way you described it is quite literally what I have to see others do is relearn. They have taught themselves so much fear around sexuality, so much guilt around sexuality that the spiritual experiences they have are the ones that are absent of the guilt, and fear, and pain. And so any time that guilt and fear are introduced, they connect that with removal of the Spirit, whereas actually, they've just trained themselves to feel guilty and fearful around this. And if they can get rid of that and invite the spirit back in, they could have this new discovery similar to what you're having in connecting with your husband, connecting with yourself. That is a very interesting thing where I've actually seen people do exactly that, where they've defined it as, "I've had to step away from these spiritual experiences and sometimes that's actually been, 'I can't go to church right now until I figure out exactly where the Lord wants me to go.'" Fortunately, in your case, you didn't have to do that. You were more of just reassessing, "What is the Lord trying to do here and where is he leading me?" That is very, very fascinating, very brave. It's a completely rewriting of your sexual health, of your approach to the gospel of things.

36:24 DB: And maybe I'm asking an obvious question but was that scary to go through that process of separating or did you know this was again, like your other experiences, you had to do it, you had to change it? What was going through your mind at the time regarding whether or not this was a risky process?

36:41 Leanne: It actually was really scary for me. In fact, when I went last year to Dr. Fife's Art of Desire retreat, I raised my hand on the first day and just started weeping. And I said, "I was just called to be in the Stake Relief Society presidency and I feel like such a fraud because in order for me to get to where I am today with my husband, I had to completely shut out the spirituality in my life." So I said, "Now, I'm trying to figure out how to get that back, and I feel like such a fraud to be in this calling, to have people think I'm something that I'm not because I'm still struggling to get that spirituality back." And that's when she explained to me, she said, "What are the fruits of the work that you and your husband have done in your physical life? What does that look like?" And I just said, "It's amazing, and beautiful, and celestial."

37:53 Leanne: And she said, "That is the fruit of the Spirit. Those are the fruits of the Spirit. Heavenly Father has been with you, you have had the spirit all along. And sometimes," she said, "we tend to put Heavenly Father into a box thinking that he can't handle our growth but that's exactly what He wants for us is our growth. He wants us to learn and grow. When we think that he can't handle our learning and growing, we put him into a little box." And that made a lot of sense to me. I feel like I'm gaining more spirituality I'm kind of in a fight with myself, within myself of deciding for myself within the church, like "the church," not the Gospel of Jesus Christ, but the church. The church was always so black and white to me, things were either right or wrong, absolutely right, or absolutely wrong. And now, this journey is helping me to discover that Heavenly Father wants me to develop spiritually and wants me to receive my own revelation. And that's where I'm navigating right now, I'm just learning to navigate really embracing that Heavenly Father truly wants me to receive revelation for my life. Does it make sense?

39:23 DB: That sounds very, very spiritual. Yes, it makes absolute sense. And so when you continue to use this phrase, "I'm struggling to be spiritual," what I think I'm hearing you say is this cultural aspect of, what does it look like now, me functioning in this maybe grey area or this personal revelation which is the fruits of your labor here, as Jennifer was pointing out, which wonderful question. You are very spiritual, you are connecting with the Lord, and your husband. So at what point do you know if you are spiritual again based on your definition, what does that look like to you?

40:05 Leanne: Just talking in this moment, I think I've realized that I'm more spiritual than I was before. I think I'm actually living on a higher plane than I was before. I think before, I lived in a space of being so fearful of being right or wrong and wanting someone else, some earthly person to tell me if I'm right or wrong. And I think now, I'm living in a way that I'm seeking to know from Heavenly Father, if I'm right or wrong. And honestly, if I think about that, I think I'm living, like I said, on a higher spiritual plane than I was before.

40:52 DB: That's what I feel, I'm feeling that from you. This is the discovery, I call this the mature spirit. We've gone from how we identify and recognize the spirit as a child, which isn't wrong, this black and white, this feeling like you're being comforted with a blanket sunshine experience, to struggling with life, dealing with the complexities, dealing with the unique approaches that the Lord is directing you in, in your personal life. That's personal revelation, it takes a strong spiritual connection with the Lord to obtain that. The other way is more or less letting other people define our own righteousness. "Have I lived up to this expectation of my leader or of this cultural perception or not?" And that's a definition of our own spirituality, and in this experience, you're recognizing how important it is to have that personal and unique revelation from the Lord. That's what I'm hearing is saving your relationship with your husband.

41:57 Leanne: Mm-hmm. I think one of the reasons why this part of it has been so hard for me is because I was the only active member in my family during my high school years. I went to church by myself, all four years of my high school. And in my high school years, my home life was very, very, very challenging. And so I had young women leaders, and bishops, and seminary teachers, and home teachers who literally took me under their wing and really loved me and protected me during those hard years. And so I had such a appreciation for people in the church because there were people that really did truly come forward and loved me as a savior would. And so I think it was hard for me to feel like I was turning away from the church 'cause of all the good that the church has done for me in a time that was so difficult. But this conversation today has helped me a lot, actually, because I'm not turning away from the church. People in church are still wonderful, and do love others, but we're all just humans. And we just need to know that and we do our best. But ultimately, it comes down to the Savior, and God, and seeking what they would have us do.

43:44 DB: Leanne, your story is beautiful. And please, thank your husband for allowing this message to get out. I know it's gonna help a lot of people, and it's gonna reach a lot of people's hearts. And is it providing this example that we need to hear more of what it looks like in these difficult experiences within our relationships. It's not gonna look the same for everyone. Some are gonna sit next to their husband or their wife and explore and understand the pornography together, some may take a different approach. But the point is opening up, connecting, using this as an opportunity to connect not only with your spouse, but with the Lord. "What does it look like going forward, not letting other people define our relationship, not letting our past trauma define our relationship in an unhealthy way?" It's always gonna change us, our previous experiences are always gonna mold and shape who we are, but finding those as an opportunity to connect deeper and to trust and to bond. Thank you, Leanne, I really appreciate you coming on and I may wanna have you on again some other time. Unfortunately, we have to wrap it up and...

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44:52 Leanne: Yeah.

44:53 DB: And I know this will help a lot of people out there, so thank you.

44:57 Leanne: Yeah, thank you so much for having me, I hope it does. I hope others can gain insight from our journey, so thank you very much for having me.

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