In this episode of Rules Based Audio, Ben Scott talks to Professor Shirley Scott, Professor of International Law and International Relations at UNSW, Canberra. She is the immediate past president of the Asian Society of International Law and was the first Australian to hold that position. Shirley has pioneered an understanding of international law as ideology and is the author of many books as well as the influential 2018 essay, The Decline of International Law as a Normative Ideal. They discuss the complex relationships between the rules-based order, international law, power and ideology.

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