Today's guest is Cooper Drenner.

Cooper served in a business development role for Heritage Title for over 9 years. His diverse background serving clients in a variety of roles is an ideal fit for his position at Wildhorn Capital, where he manages the company's capital relationships.

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[00:00:00] Intro

[00:00:41] Cooper's background

[00:04:51] Wildhorn's involvement in various forms of housing

[00:08:28] The Stickiness of Single Family

[00:09:30] The Growth of Austin and San Antonio

[00:12:39] Transaction Volume and Cap Rates

[00:17:36] Buying Price per Pound and Underwriting Deals

[00:19:17] Focus on Build-for-Rent Development Deals

[00:23:29] Partnership and Deal Structures in the Build-for-Rent Space

[00:26:28] Cooper Dresner's background in commercial real estate

[00:26:28] Wildhorn Capital's focus on multi-housing

[00:26:28] Various forms of housing

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Connect with Cooper:

Web: https://wildhorncap.com/

Linkedin: https://www.linkedin.com/company/wildhorn-capital/

Connect with Sam:

I love helping others place money outside of traditional investments that both diversify a strategy and provide solid predictable returns.

Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/HowtoscaleCRE/

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/samwilsonhowtoscalecre/

Email me → [email protected]

SUBSCRIBE and LEAVE A RATING. Listen to How To Scale Commercial Real Estate Investing with Sam Wilson

Apple Podcasts: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/how-to-scale-commercial-real-estate/id1539979234

Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/4m0NWYzSvznEIjRBFtCgEL?si=e10d8e039b99475f

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Want to read the full show notes of the episode? Check it out below:

Cooper Drenner (00:00:00) - Where are we? Excellent. They're not giving real estate away in all these great markets. They're. They're are expert in all those spaces. And so it's a little bit of the analogy. Always uses say, what do you, you know, go into a restaurant. It's a lot easier to go to a restaurant that only serves pizza and know that they do pizza well. But it's not. Oftentimes you go to a restaurant and say, you know what, They do great. They do Mexican food well and they do sushi well and they do pizza well. And so I think we're focused every day on being the best operators of multi housing that we can possibly be. Welcome to the How to scale commercial real estate show. Whether you are an active or passive investor, we'll teach you how to scale your real estate investing business into something big.

Sam Wilson (00:00:41) - Cooper Dresner served in a business development role for Heritage Title for over nine years. His diverse background serving clients in a variety of roles, an ideal fit for his position at Wild Horn Capital, where he manages the company's capital relationships.

Sam Wilson (00:00:54) - Cooper Welcome to the show.

Cooper Drenner (00:00:56) - Thank you, Sam. Thanks for having me. Happy day after Memorial Day, I guess when we're when we're filming this. And so I don't know when folks will be listening to it, but it's good to be back in the office and figuring out how to make things make sense right now. Absolutely.

Sam Wilson (00:01:12) - Yeah. We're recording this here on May 30th. We all just came off of a long weekend. Yeah, it was a great a great weekend. I don't know how things were for you there in Austin, Texas, but it was beautiful for us here in Tennessee. Cooper I've got three questions for you, the same three questions I ask every guest who comes on the show in 90s or less. Can you tell me where did you start? Where are you now and how did you get there?

Cooper Drenner (00:01:32) - Absolutely. So I started on Born and Raised in Austin, Texas, actually, the only city I've ever lived. So grew up here. Land use attorney son. So I've always been around and involved in commercial real estate business here, went to the University of Texas, got out immediately, went working for a commercial real estate developer and doing retail work, and then, you know, been fortunate again.

Cooper Drenner (00:01:55) - So much of I think the my my story and wild horn story is a little bit of the boy who was born on third base but pretends he hit a triple. Austin, Texas has been the fastest growing market as it relates to jobs over the last 15 years. And so much of not just our company, but a lot of companies success has been where we are located and figuring out how we leverage what makes Austin a great place to live and move. And so Wild Horn is a small housing operator based out of central Texas. We focus on kind of all sectors of the housing space and love what we do, love where we get to do it.

Sam Wilson (00:02:32) - Man, that's really cool. I'm I truly am jealous of your, um, kind of just hyper focus in one market. I mean, I think that's one thing that people struggle with so much. It's like, Hey, we could do this, we could do that. They're kind of all over the place. But you it sounds like really just been all in on Austin, Texas from the get go.

Cooper Drenner (00:02:53) - It doesn't mean we can't get shiny object syndrome just like everybody else. I think sometimes the goal is to make sure you look at something, evaluate it doesn't mean you just turn a blind eye to something that looks interesting. But figuring out how to pick something up quick and put it down quick. Um, you know, one of the other things that we realize is there's, I think as an investor, I like hearing focus because, you know, I do this too. I'm an investor with a lot of other groups, and it's never a great sign when you sit down with someone for coffee and every quarter and they got, Oh, we're now we're doing self storage and now we're going and now we're doing office and now we're doing prep fund or now we're doing an ATM fund or something else is when you talk to Wild Horn, it's going to be Austin focused and it's very likely going to be housing focused in some way, shape or form. Everything we do sort of lends itself to that. And I think, you know, this this podcast focuses on scaling.

Cooper Drenner (00:03:45) - I think that has really helped us scale in much the same way. Um, and I think, I think the last thing with it, Sam, is just, you know, where are we? Excellent. They're not giving real estate away in all these great markets. They're, they're are expert in all those spaces. And so it's a little bit of the analogy I always use, as I say, what do you, you know, go into a restaurant? It's a lot easier to go to a restaurant that only serves pizza and know that they do pizza well. But it's not. Oftentimes you go to a restaurant and say, you know what, They do great. They do Mexican food well and they do sushi well and they do pizza well. And so I think we're focused every day on being the best operators of multi housing that we can possibly be.

Sam Wilson (00:04:22) - No, that's cool. I like the way you said that when you said, you know, you don't go to get Mexican food, sushi and pizza all on the same on the same.

Sam Wilson (00:04:31) - I wouldn't I wouldn't want to go there like just as just from a.

Cooper Drenner (00:04:35) - Factory's pretty good but mean they're not excellent at anything and we want to be hyper focused where we can be the best.

Sam Wilson (00:04:40) - Right. You said you said you are involved in the housing business in some way, shape or form. What are those various forms then that you're involved in?

Cooper Drenner (00:04:51) - Housing for sure. So we own and operate about 4000 apartment units here in Austin traditionally have not been a developer. We've bought and operated assets, kind of our 80 vintage, so b B to B plus all the way to brand new every reason we've done a deal. And I would say the other question that always comes same is how do you capitalize your deals? So we have some deals we've done with institutional partners. We have some deals that we've done with our friends and family network. And if that is interesting to you, um, our website is, is Wild horned and we've got a portal and if you have any interest, feel free to log on and check us out and put yourself on our newsletter to see, to see deals.

Cooper Drenner (00:05:33) - And then we've bought deals with just individual families really, that started as $100,000. Investor And you know, after doing business together said, hey, we're having usually it's around a capital event. You know, Hey, we're selling this asset, we're selling this company, we'd like to buy an asset with just you and Wild Horn. So we we currently own and operate about 15 assets. We're a partner in a development in San Marcus called the Merriman, where we partnered with a multi housing developer. Again, this idea about being an owner and operator, the business plan on that asset, Sam, is to go a little bit longer. Our debt made sense to allow us a lot of optionality, especially in a market right now where who knows what interest rates are going to be in the next 24 months. Right. And so we we are going to be taking over the operations of that asset and running the lease up of it. And then we've been working for about the last six months on a on a build for rent platform.

Cooper Drenner (00:06:27) - We really again, housing trends I think are pretty similar among markets that are growing, where people are moving that, you know, with interest rates staying high or longer, people are going to be able to own less homes and they're going to be less people that can afford to qualify for loans. But I think at their core, people desire the living experience. A lot of times of a home, which is a yard, a dog where a dog can run, having if you have kids, the ability to have your kids in a separate room having it. I have a I have a single mom and never really appreciated the importance of an attached garage for people that they want to be able to pull their car into their their garage, you know, put the door down and be able to walk directly in their house and never have to go outside. And so we've been working a long time on a on a single family for rent platform that we think we may have our first deal here soon and are excited about that space because if you followed any of the trends nationally, that's been the the hardest place to enter and probably the stickiest place where your renter lives.

Sam Wilson (00:07:29) - Yeah, man, the build build for rent is a trend that I just I only see accelerating. And it's something even probably seven, eight years ago, some friends of mine here in the Memphis market were doing build for rent. And I'm like, That's just the weirdest concept. I just couldn't wrap my head around it. And now I'm like, Wow. Like, it's everywhere. I mean, I get it now. Obviously. It's funny you.

Cooper Drenner (00:07:53) - Bring. It up. We bought it. We own a deal in San Antonio with a family that is a built for rent deal. Before they were called Bill for rent deals, right? We called it kind of a villa style lock and leave townhome living. And the data is fascinating. Owning one of these, you can operate them more cheaply. Your renter stays, you know typical on a on any kind of multi housing asset. Your renter your your your your interest is about 50% of the time upon renewals. Right. You're turning that unit over 50% of the time in this aspect your your renter stays 70, 75% of the time.

Cooper Drenner (00:08:28) - So they're really leaving because they're moving somewhere else. Totally. They've had a really big life change, a divorce. Some kind of splitting or they're buying a house. And so a lot of it's just the stickiness of the quality of life that, you know, a typical single family for rent, housing, either whether it's a duplex or a standalone house, is 15, 1700 square feet, an 800 square foot apartment. Not a lot of times the trends say that people are slashing half their stuff. Uh, those things tend to grow. And if you if you've tracked or invested in the, the self storage space that that has, that has proved that out over the last decade.

Sam Wilson (00:09:12) - Right? Yeah. Undoubtedly. Undoubtedly. So you got your hands in build for rent. You have 4000 plus apartments right now and you're in you're solely focused there in the Austin, Texas market. One thing you said is that right or there anything else there in the house?

Cooper Drenner (00:09:30) - Essentially Central Texas is probably right. Austin, San Antonio.

Sam Wilson (00:09:34) - And the.

Cooper Drenner (00:09:34) - Okay, you're down here. Those are those are big growing cities. But it used to feel like forever a farmland in between. But door to door San Antonio is really about an hour from from Austin. And so with the growth of some of the what we're smaller markets but some of the fastest growing cities in the country between those cities are growing together more like Dallas-Fort Worth. And I'm not sure what I'm sure there are other examples of this across the country. But DFW, that has always sort of resonated with people and realizing that those cities have grown together more. And there's been a again, we're on a scaling podcast when when you when you line up the economic development on two cities in one city shrinks or another's weaknesses and vice versa, that has a multiplying effect from a from an economy standpoint.

Sam Wilson (00:10:20) - Yeah, no, absolutely. I did not realize that San Antonio was only an hour really from Austin. I mean, that's.

Cooper Drenner (00:10:28) - The other dirty little secret is San Antonio's had a more resilient economy than Houston or Dallas.

Cooper Drenner (00:10:34) - It's a different economy, but it is, you know, San Antonio with, you know, Austin touts. And I've been involved with Austin's economic development fund for the last decade. But it you know, we really had a group of citizens and a mayor and a governor that got it all together back in 2001. That's the cause for Austin's growth as we started raising economic development funds and four year tranches and started playing the economic development game So well, we've we've probably hosted a thousand cities in the last 16 years. Some of those visits are multiple visits. Nashville, Tennessee being one. Nashville has just copied our plan, which is nothing. That's not a wrong thing. But if you raise the money and you do it correctly, you should. In your line from a city and state perspective, it's really obvious to see why people are fleeing. And no, no shots, but it's obvious to see why people are fleeing. San Francisco, Really? California in general, New York, Illinois, some of the highest tax jurisdiction states right.

Cooper Drenner (00:11:35) - Have been the biggest net creators of both jobs and people. Um, San Antonio has been, I think, the number six economy in the country for the last 15 years. Without really trying that hard at it. San Antonio is is also a much bigger city than people realize. I mean, much bigger than Austin. So it it's it's a unique place that if you don't live in Texas you may not understand it very well. Austin gets the above the fold name recognition for good reason. But San Antonio has sort of been the in the analogy of the tortoise and the hare. They have always been the tortoise, but they've just been consistent.

Sam Wilson (00:12:11) - No, that's cool. That's great. And what a great spot for you to be in. Let's talk then. I mean, nationwide, multifamily, multifamily, from a transaction standpoint, you know, as of like two weeks ago was down 75% year over year. We Are you guys seeing similar slowdowns? I know Texas is basically its own country. So it's, you know, kind of kind of maybe not comparable to to to, you know, look at it or, you know.

Cooper Drenner (00:12:39) - We are I mean, I don't I don't know if 75% on transaction volume, but but we're well above 50. I was going to probably say 60, 65. Um, a little of it. I'll give you this analogy saying or I'll give you this real life example. So we looked at a deal that traded recently, won inside our assets. So I'll just I can only speak to my data, but I think this is proving true. And what you see, you know, our data flow just in an industry, especially in a state, is pretty good. Um, we had about 4% growth to our NOI, our 4% growth to rent growth in Q1. We've seen NOI growth a little bit above that, um, which is great historically, right? Ring growth at 4% would be great. That's way down from where we were for the last year. But historically positive. It seems like that's more by way of renewals than a new tenant. If a new tenants around moving around, they're probably more aware.

Cooper Drenner (00:13:34) - They're probably moving because they can't afford what they had a little bit more. They're probably a little bit more careful on what they step into because they've seen things rise, but we're sort of up in that regard. But which is still in all the food groups, the major product types and all the countries is very healthy. So most deals are trading at between still somewhere between a four and a 3:45 and a half cap. Wow. And I know we have a lot of investors that listen to this podcast. I'm always going to pause and throw in what I would call the meter. This is what if I was an investor? As an investor, things I'd be asking about. We've quickly forgotten how to talk about cap rates on what our going in cap is. Yeah. My question always to both a broker and as an investor is, all right, what's my going and cap rate? And someone's gonna say, oh, it's a five cap. Well, you can calculate a going and cap. Is it AT1? Is it AT3? Is it looking forward cap rate? As an investor, you should always ask if it's not t three over t 12 adjusted for what your new taxes are going to be.

Cooper Drenner (00:14:36) - And these days, and this is the biggest thing that should be brought up in this podcast a lot going forward is insurance. We're in an insurance crisis in the multi housing market. If it's not T three over t 12 tax and insurance adjusted, we're not talking apples to apples and cap rates. So what I'm talking about a four and a 3:45 and a half cap where deals are trading is um is is t three over t 12 tax and insurance adjusted. But that's where deals are trading, which is still incredibly low. For across the country. Deals are still trading at that level. But I'll also tell you, your price per pound dollar feels really, really good. And so the example I was going to bring up, we had a deal under contract this time last year that we ended up dropping just because the market started really moving dynamically right now. Yeah, we didn't we didn't walk earnest money on this deal. We just we tied it up and very quickly knew our underwriting and the seller did.

Cooper Drenner (00:15:28) - We just sort of agreed. Actually I say that we never fully put it under contract. We we just for reputational purposes, wanted to just sort of have a transparent conversation right before we sign the PSA. And we both kind of agreed to go, let's let's see if things settle out. But we had it under contract, I think, at 280 a door, which felt good at the time. It still was down off peak pricing. Sure. That deal I saw in a package for 215 a door recently. It was shown at 20 IRR. And again, an investor question, um, if a deal in central Texas was showing to your base case underwriting a 20 IRR any time over the last decade, something was either too good to be true man, they stole it or something was amiss. At this point, debt was, you know, you're solving for debt that is is much higher than it was. There was a little line item there in the bottom. A question I'd always ask is, in your base case underwriting, are you assuming any kind of refinance or supplemental loan? Just a just a great question, right? Um, because just as a just as a data point, if I knew where interest rates are going to be in two years, I shouldn't need your money.

Cooper Drenner (00:16:38) - I shouldn't be doing real estate. I can make an incredible amount of wealth doing a lot easier things than what I'm doing right now. So that's the that's to say, the smartest people still struggle with that answer. The forward looking sofr curve has been historically wrong 100% of the time. It's okay to make guesses. It's okay to say this is what I think it's going to be. But if I'm ever making big financial decisions where all of my returns is based on being able to peg that rate and I'm being inherently on the aggressive side, as an investor, I would be a little dubious. So but to that example I was giving. The deal underwrote better at $285 a door than it did at $215 a door because of where the debt was. So to to. I'm going to make myself a true Texan in this case. It's a great time to buy the cow, but it's a really bad time to buy the milk. Your your cash flow on these deals is never is going to look really poor right now.

Cooper Drenner (00:17:36) - But if for some reason, as an owner, you like buying price per pound, which by the way if you're if you can and you can live like that, it's a great time to buy. But your underwriting is going to be really, really not really, really bad, but it's going to be not what you want it to look like. And so you it's a great time to buy deals in Austin and you're seeing deals trade in Austin where people are coming in saying, great, I love this basis. Another interesting data point, Sam, is everyone sort of solving for the same debt? No one's really going in with bridge financing like they were. You know, all buyers are sort of underwriting to the five year agency, five year Freddie note and sort of buying down your your prepayment penalty like three years. And so you're going to live in this sort of onerous debt for three years. But at the end of three years, when if you think interest rates in the market are going to be in a better place.

Cooper Drenner (00:18:26) - I do personally do. It's going to be a great time because you're going to have the ability to refinance at that moment and you're going to love your basis, but you're going to be kind of feeding the deal along the way. And I know I use a lot of real estate terms and kind of inside of real estate terms, and that might not be our total audience. But I go back to that. It's a great time to buy the cow. It's just you can't buy the milk as well.

Sam Wilson (00:18:48) - Right? Right. Nuts. I like that analogy. I hadn't heard that. And that makes that makes a lot of sense. So it sounds like you guys are pencils up right now and still trying to. Not trying, but still going out and acquiring deals.

Cooper Drenner (00:19:03) - You know, we're we're we're we're not totally pencils up. If if we had a family or we had the right bucket of money or a partner that needed to get dollars out because of a 1031 And we have a couple families and folks that we're looking at.

Cooper Drenner (00:19:17) - What we're what we think is really interesting right now is if you can figure out how to make developments pencils. So we're working on a couple development deals in the BFR space because to your data point about transaction volume down, the development pipeline is pretty much off the table. I think 80% of the development pipeline across all product types is pencils down because office is sort of a four letter word right now and I'm not sure 100% agree with that, but it is a four letter word to your lender. Right? And and so we're working on and I think we'll be raising on a couple build for rent development deals where our partner on these deals and this platform is going to be is actually a home builder. And so we're choosing to build the deals at smaller margins so we can over we can look past and get past what is somewhat more onerous debt because we're developing into kind of a no supply environment in two years and we can choose to to take a lower margin to make these deals pencil better. And so that's what we're really been mainly focused on in the last six months.

Cooper Drenner (00:20:23) - And what I think will be focused on for the next six is, is a build for rent pipeline that we think is really exciting and frankly, is is what renters are telling you they want to do right now as well. So and again, I'm a little superstitious. As soon as I say that, maybe we'll find something on an acquisition standpoint, but I can't be mad at it too much because it's also what has been, as an investor, great comfort that Austin multi housing is still garnering, I think nationwide the lowest cap rates of any product type. It's it's because people are still moving here in droves with an economic development head on. Sam We tend to steal market share in these environments in recessions more so than we do when times are good.

Sam Wilson (00:21:09) - Right? Right. No, I like that. I like that. That that makes a lot of sense. I mean, yeah, and there's there's and that was something. I was talking to a banker on Friday and I just said, hey, you know, what's, what's what are you guys not lending on right now? Like, what's a bucket you guys are not looking to fill from a lending perspective? And he goes, new development.

Sam Wilson (00:21:31) - He goes, we're just we're just not doing it right now. How are you guys overcoming that obstacle? Are you guys just raising it on cash? What's your how are you now?

Cooper Drenner (00:21:39) - We actually we actually got two lender term sheets. So I think that sort of speaks to I think you're right. I don't lenders aren't looking to do deals right now. Just historically. That's not their bent. They're not looking to do deals. Right now. The single family for rent space underwrites really, really well. And being able to to partner and own the expertise of actually doing the construction ourself and self performing in that way and with with our home developer being our partner and who's doing this stuff in central Texas and. Just you know, I think a lender. Right. Is only got a few arrows to shoot and they want to shoot them at the best risk adjusted places to shoot them. And the single family for rent space, I think is the best risk adjusted. So I never thought I would be feeling like I've, you know, shot the moon by getting it to lender term sheets.

Cooper Drenner (00:22:32) - But I got two in hand last week, which is a great feeling. So, um, and there's a little bit of not trying to roll the rock uphill. It's, you know, in central Texas a little bit, we're kind of California in this and that we constrain supply by true environmental reasons and it's a little bit it's been our blessing and our curse that Houston's a great city. But again, I told you from the beginning, I'm a land use attorney. Sun So no land use in Houston makes no sense to me. I view everything in that prism of supply and demand. Why is what we have here by right give us an existential advantage versus somebody being able to show up and put it up next to us. And so but yeah, we feel like we've sort of found something. It's not how we started out, by the way. It's not like, Oh, the lenders told us this is what they'll do. And we went searching for it. We kept looking at these type of deals and this opportunity and this partnership and went, This feels like it's still making sense.

Cooper Drenner (00:23:29) - Should we keep going? This feels like it's still making sense. Should we keep going? Right. And I think that's a little bit of wild horn. How we think about investments is just intellectually curious. This deal we really like, does it continue to make sense? But but not trying to sort of go, hey, I'm going to grit my teeth and figure out how many times I got to run into this wall to make this thing happen. And so we sort of backed into this this way through this partnership. And then these deal structures and lenders felt the same way. And so that's that's been a comfort man.

Sam Wilson (00:23:58) - That's really, really cool. Cooper I've got so many more questions for you. Unfortunately, we are at the end of the show. This is still been a great I'll come.

Cooper Drenner (00:24:05) - Back on Sam sometime if you're not sick of me, but I know I'm long winded and I apologize in advance for.

Sam Wilson (00:24:11) - That. No, no, you've shared some great stuff with us today. No, not long winded at all.

Sam Wilson (00:24:15) - Think. Think. Yeah. You've shared so many things with us. Everything from just how you have been so hyper focused there in Austin and in the I guess you call it the central Texas market. Is that right? Yeah.

Cooper Drenner (00:24:27) - Absolutely.

Sam Wilson (00:24:29) - Down to San Antonio. You've talked about you guys owning 4000 units. You've talked about why you see opportunity there in the build for rent space. I mean just and yeah, lots and lots of great stuff that you share with us here today. Certainly appreciate you taking the time to come on the show. If our listeners want to get in touch with you and learn more about you, what is the best way to do that?

Cooper Drenner (00:24:47) - Yeah, I mean, my partner is is a guy named Andrew Campbell. He actually started Wild Horn and I join Andrew as a partner. We own the deal together and it's we're a small company. We we want to maintain and operate that kind of white glove approach. And so you can access on our website, Wild Horn, we're on LinkedIn and all the other, you know, easy socials to find us.

Cooper Drenner (00:25:14) - You'll deal with us. We have a director of investor relations who who helps us. But one of the things that we get high marks on with our investor, Sam, is like we produce a lot of investor content, not just, you know, SaaS about us, but we really want our investors to feel like they know us, that they can get in touch with us, that they know what's happening in our deal. Again, if I'm putting my investor hat on, that's one of the first questions I'm asking is what does that regular cadence look like, good or bad news? As an investor myself, I want to know early. I want to know what our plan is. I want to feel like I trust you. I understand things happen. But I want to. I heard this one time and I'll leave you with this. Everyone always agrees on what happens. Tends to happen when things go really, really well. But I want to invest with and work with the person who thinks like I think when things aren't going well and that's not always when someone can control it.

Cooper Drenner (00:26:09) - But I really want to understand how someone thinks in that moment. And I think investor communication is the best way to do that. So if you want to get in touch with us, either our website or on the socials, and we'd be happy to set up a call and introduce ourselves. And sometimes it's easy to meet someone outside of a deal just so you get a chance to know someone when you don't feel like they're pitching you, right?

Sam Wilson (00:26:28) - Absolutely. Absolutely. Cooper Thank you again for coming on the show today. I certainly appreciate it. This was loads of fun.

Cooper Drenner (00:26:34) - Thanks, Sam. Appreciate you.

Sam Wilson (00:26:35) - Hey, thanks for listening to the How to Scale Commercial Real Estate podcast. If you can do me a favor and subscribe and leave us a review on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Google Podcasts, whatever platform it is you use to listen. If you can do that for us, that would be a fantastic help to the show. It helps us both attract new listeners as well as rank higher on those directories.

Sam Wilson (00:26:57) - So appreciate you listening. Thanks so much and hope to catch you on the next episode.