In this edition of For Immediate Release podcast interviews, Shel and Neville enjoyed a 55-minute conversation with Jeff De Cagna, founder of Principled Innovation LLC. Topics and themes discussed include: the challenges for volunteers and staff of association; reducing governance in associations; advocacy and taking stands on issues; the dead strategic planning model and what should be in place instead; opening up to new ideas and learning; the uneven distribution of a future that's already here.