Jonathan is joined by one of his oldest friends, Mary Budd, for a conversation that somehow starts with Michael Jackson and ends somewhere much more personal.

The episode explores the strange cultural amnesia around Jackson—how quickly the world seems to have moved past the allegations against him, with MJ the Musical on Broadway and the Michael movie breaking box-office records. From there, the two look back on their own artistic origin stories: two kids with big dreams who took different paths, with Mary studying theatre and eventually heading to Chicago, and Jonathan studying music before making his way to New York.

What follows is a conversation about ambition, disappointment, reinvention, growing up, and what happens when the dreams people once had start changing shape. It’s about the versions of ourselves we thought we’d become, the lives we actually build, and what we learn from the messy, funny, occasionally humbling business of trying to become the people we once imagined we’d be.

Catch new episodes of The Next Best Thing LIVE, every Monday night at 10:00 Eastern on Radio Free Brooklyn! And follow the show, as well as the host, on Twitter! @NextBestRadio and @jonblerner!