Today's guest is Maria Zondervan

Maria is the CEO of Blue Vikings Capital LLC. She began investing in real estate in 1996. She has 25+ years of experience, and has worked with a variety of asset sizes and classes.

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[0:00] Intro

[0:44] The 3 questions

[1:44] What was the catalyst?

[2:30] Multifamily strategy

[5:31] Affordable housing

[9:06] Assumable loans

[10:24] Talking to partners 1 on 1

[12:52] Nonprofit

[15:24] Scaling

[16:11] The issue of teams

[17:20] Evaluating partnerships

[19:03] Closing

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Connect with Maria:

Linkedin: https://www.linkedin.com/in/maria-zondervan-b5b61544/

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/mariazondervan/

Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/maria.zondervan

YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC1lGslpmC0vtJaFrYzXAWcQ

Connect with Sam:

I love helping others place money outside of traditional investments that both diversify a strategy and provide solid predictable returns.

Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/HowtoscaleCRE/

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/samwilsonhowtoscalecre/

Email me → [email protected]

SUBSCRIBE and LEAVE A RATING. Listen to How To Scale Commercial Real Estate Investing with Sam Wilson

Apple Podcasts: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/how-to-scale-commercial-real-estate/id1539979234

Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/4m0NWYzSvznEIjRBFtCgEL?si=e10d8e039b99475f

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Want to read the full show notes of the episode? Check it out below:

00:00:00:00 - 00:00:17:01

Maria Zondervan

There is deals in any market and anyone who tells you there isn't. They're not working hard enough. Right. So there's still a lot of great assignable loans out there that are still in the two and 3% rate. So there are always people that need to sell for whatever reason. So you just need to find those.

00:00:17:13 - 00:00:40:22

Intro

Welcome to the How to Scale commercial Real Estate Show. Whether you are an active or passive investor, we'll teach you how to scale your real estate investing business into something big.

Sam Wilson

Maria Zondervan is the CEO of Blue Vikings Capital. She began investing in real estate in 1996, and she has over 25 years of experience and has worked in a variety of asset classes and sizes.

00:00:41:02 - 00:00:42:08

Sam Wilson

Maria, welcome to the show.

00:00:42:22 - 00:00:43:21

Maria Zondervan

Lovely to be here.

00:00:44:07 - 00:00:52:11

Sam Wilson

Thank you so much for coming on today. There are three questions I ask every guest who comes on the show in 90 seconds or less. Where did you start? Where are you now and how did you get there and why?

00:00:52:18 - 00:01:19:22

Maria Zondervan

Well, I started back in college. I bought my first place before I even graduated college. So and then I just kept investing throughout my life, really alongside being an endangered species biologist, because that was my passion. But I knew I would never make money doing that. That's just the passion. But so real estate, let me do that. And today I am buying large apartment complexes and looking looking to the future to see what the next big challenges.

00:01:20:05 - 00:01:27:09

Sam Wilson

While an endangered species biologist. That's pretty that's pretty fun. Now you're based where?

00:01:27:09 - 00:01:28:18

Maria Zondervan

In Florida.

00:01:28:18 - 00:01:33:17

Sam Wilson

Florida. Okay. Right. So you're in Florida. Did you work specifically in Florida or do you work all over the world or what was your.

00:01:33:18 - 00:01:43:23

Maria Zondervan

I did work specifically in Florida. We got plenty of critters here to keep me busy. Everything from gators and snakes to birds and turtles, manatees, eagles, you name it. We got it. All right. Here.

00:01:44:01 - 00:01:58:21

Sam Wilson

You got it. All right here. And you worked in that field, but also were growing your kind of own real estate holdings along the way. Yes. At what point in time what was the catalyst for you that said, okay, we're going to go bigger and do bigger assets and bigger things in the real estate space?

00:01:59:22 - 00:02:24:09

Maria Zondervan

I actually had an autistic son wasn't part of the plan now, but he plans for these things that having a special needs child all of a sudden puts a whole lot more emphasis on you growing your wealth because you got to take care of them forever and beyond your own lifespan. So it became more important, and the closer he got to adulthood, the more I decided maybe I should leave this thing.

00:02:24:09 - 00:02:30:09

Maria Zondervan

I'm very passionate about because I'm even more passionate about my son and make the leap to real estate full time. And so finally I did that.

00:02:30:18 - 00:02:44:16

Sam Wilson

Got it. What did you start investing in? And I guess what was the was a strategy you took on because everybody. Okay, so now you've got a you've kind of got a Y defined for you, but then how are you going to go about meeting the needs of that?

00:02:44:16 - 00:03:04:05

Maria Zondervan

Y Yeah, I mean the strategy was multifamily and I approach that by joining mastermind get around the right people, the right networks, and they will help point you in the right way. Right? You don't have to learn it all. You just know all the people know it. All right. And so so that was it. We knew multifamily was the path.

00:03:04:05 - 00:03:13:04

Maria Zondervan

We knew that was where to scale. So I started educating myself on that and getting around people who do that until they made it look easy. And then I was like, okay, I can do this. And so I did.

00:03:13:17 - 00:03:39:24

Sam Wilson

That's that's very, very cool. So where are you today in that multifamily acquisition kind of process? Because I know a lot of people, you know, the bigger institutions are Pencils Down recording this. What is this? This is April 18th of 2023. You know, a lot of people are pens, pencils down. There's some apprehension in the multifamily space. But it sounds like for you, you guys have found a niche that you're very not just confident in, but, you know, you're find a lot of opportunity.

00:03:39:24 - 00:03:41:19

Sam Wilson

And so talk to us about that if you can.

00:03:41:20 - 00:03:59:18

Maria Zondervan

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, there is deals in any market and anyone who tells you there isn't they're not working hard enough. Right. So there's still a lot of great assignable loans out there that are still in the two or 3% rate. So there are always people that need to sell for whatever reason. So you just need to find those.

00:04:00:02 - 00:04:20:22

Maria Zondervan

We really like the affordable housing niche because there's such a demand for that right now and because properties are valued on the income they produce, a lot of times you can pick them up a few years before they exit out of some of the affordable housing programs where you're buying them in a way, in a way that they're at now, knowing they're going to jump up in a few years.

00:04:20:22 - 00:04:43:21

Maria Zondervan

So that can be a really strong play. And then we also buy Forever Holds or we're actually building or creating them in some cases. And this is partly through my nonprofit, which is by Apollo, the list on which their mission is to provide housing and services for autistic adults like my son. And so those properties will never be sold, right?

00:04:44:04 - 00:05:06:12

Maria Zondervan

So those are things people can invest in and have a forever income. And so we're not real worried about is it providing a huge return right now because long term it's going to provide buckets of money, right? So it's just a matter of which investors you have and what they're looking for. And for me, I'm looking for people who are trying to set up the future generations right now.

00:05:06:12 - 00:05:31:00

Sam Wilson

That's really, really interesting. I want to I mean, you're you're tackling a lot. They're all at once from taking care of your own family, from then setting up investments, from what it sounds like for other families with similar, similar needs. And then also going out and playing, you know, just openly in the affordable housing sector. So, I mean, there's a lot of a lot of different pieces going or a lot of parts of moving, parts there inside of that.

00:05:31:00 - 00:05:51:19

Sam Wilson

Let's talk a little bit maybe about the affordable housing component. You'd mentioned you like affordable housing. The demand is there, but yet some of these some of these properties may be exiting that affordable housing criteria here in the next two or three years when then it can be more to market rate to go into detail on that, if you can.

00:05:52:05 - 00:06:13:24

Maria Zondervan

Okay. Well, yes, so there's like like tech and programs like that where they basically they put a cap on what you can charge for rent. And so that caps out what you're in a why is your net operating income and therefore the value of the property. So we buy it at that and then as those restrictions come off, then you can push them closer to market rents.

00:06:14:00 - 00:06:35:20

Maria Zondervan

Now we typically don't go all the way to market rents because we believe in affordable housing. We want to keep it affordable. So actually by us flying it versus somebody else that would push it all the way up to to market rent, we're we're doing a bit of a service there too, but we're also helping our investors. So some of our investors, they still need to grow short term income and turn their money quickly.

00:06:36:01 - 00:06:58:12

Maria Zondervan

So this is a way for them to do that before they move into long term hold. So they have more to put into those long term holds. So we're kind of trying to service both sectors by offering investment opportunities, both for short term and long term investors and for those that just want to have a mixed portfolio. But those properties are awesome because they're always full, you know, there's always a waiting list to get into those properties.

00:06:58:12 - 00:06:59:23

Maria Zondervan

So it's a very safe investment.

00:07:00:16 - 00:07:26:04

Sam Wilson

Yeah. Yeah. And that was one of my questions there was in the in the late tech resident base, I'll use that term, the resident base that needs a light tech or utilizes a low tech property. How is that tenant performing right now? I mean, things have gotten a little harder. I would think that's one of the first kind of income brackets to start getting squeezed.

00:07:26:04 - 00:07:28:15

Sam Wilson

How are those how are those deals performing right now?

00:07:28:15 - 00:07:54:22

Maria Zondervan

They're actually performing just just fine. So we're not buying rough properties for buying nice big class type properties. This is not seeing the class assets. We're not talking, you know, Section eight necessarily. A lot of people associate low tech with Section eight or low income housing with that sort of stuff. It doesn't have to be. Some of these properties are brand new built, beautiful properties for pools and clubhouses.

00:07:55:05 - 00:08:18:18

Maria Zondervan

So I think it's there's some education that has to go into that, especially with their investors who may have that mindset of thinking it's slum kind of stuff. It isn't. You can have really nice affordable housing and the affordable criterias based on what you're providing. So what is affordable in a three bedroom, two bath townhouse community of this sort?

00:08:18:18 - 00:08:22:11

Maria Zondervan

Right. So it's not it's not a one size fits all.

00:08:22:23 - 00:08:47:24

Sam Wilson

Got it. Got it. No, that's really cool. And that's I mean, even that some education for me, you know, because I don't I don't play in that space very much. And it I don't I don't understand the types of assets that even go into low income housing tax credit properties. So that's really cool to hear that there are really nice brand new build US assets that you guys can build or not build but by and you know, run as a low tech property.

00:08:47:24 - 00:09:06:18

Sam Wilson

So that's really, really cool. And I like the fact that in your affordable housing you're keeping it even when that affordable housing period or the high tech period burns off, you're still keeping, you know, rents where that tenant base can still afford that. Let's talk about a Super Bowl loan. That's something you had mentioned as well. I think that's a really cool strategy.

00:09:06:18 - 00:09:18:03

Sam Wilson

I think it's a gold mine right now is buying properties with the Super Bowl loans in that fix, two and a half to three and a half, 4% even range. How are you finding those and why are sellers selling those?

00:09:19:17 - 00:09:44:10

Maria Zondervan

Well, I can give you an example of a while. I just recently had it was a loan and the house kind of ties into to a broker we had worked with multiple times, knew we would close, knew we were good at that. And so he brought us this deal where basically partnership was falling apart. So I talked to a syndication attorney recently who says she will not even set up syndications where there are more than five partners.

00:09:44:10 - 00:10:04:20

Maria Zondervan

She says there's just too many cooks in the kitchen and often it falls apart. And this was exactly that. There were eight partners trying to all decide how to do. It wasn't a syndication, it's just a partnership. But but they're just too many and they could not agree on a strategy. And so finally they all just threw up their hands and said, we're selling, you know, and they had this great estimable loan.

00:10:05:07 - 00:10:24:11

Maria Zondervan

And, you know, we're willing to to take terms and and negotiate on price. And so because we knew we had to make up, you know, usually you have to bring a little more to the table, a little more cash to the table. Right. But your investors still want return, so they're willing to negotiate with you, especially when there's stressed and one out of something.

00:10:24:11 - 00:10:38:17

Sam Wilson

How did you get it? Sounds like if they can't decide or can't agree on how to operate the property, getting that many partners to agree on what the terms are for sale could also end up being a bit of a quagmire.

00:10:38:18 - 00:11:03:21

Maria Zondervan

We see. Yes. And this is why we're still in negotiations on it. This is an active, active deal, but we're getting close. And yes, that's exactly the problem is is getting everybody to terms, but you have to be a little more patient with them. You don't push. You just tell me you're there to listen. You listen to all their problems and all their complaints that all their other partners and you talk to them one on one, one at a time, all eight partners, you eventually make the deal.

00:11:04:07 - 00:11:27:07

Sam Wilson

Wow. Yeah. That's that's a sound piece of advice. There's there's a there's a there's something you go to the playbook, you talk to them one at a time. Yeah, because I imagine the sparks would fly if there's, there's already tension getting all of them together to talk about it probably would not be a good a good move. I think back to a property we tried to acquire, gosh, it was it only earlier, maybe late 2019 and they had owned it since 1900.

00:11:27:21 - 00:11:45:19

Sam Wilson

And so imagine all of the heirs. Yeah, it was it was a piece of raw land, but it was all the heirs that were in cousins and cousins on cousins and people don't even know each other. Needless. Needless to say, there was one person in the entire in the entire realm. One person did not want the deal to go through.

00:11:45:19 - 00:11:55:14

Sam Wilson

And it completely just derailed the whole process. And it was and it was over. It was over pennies. And it just it anyway, I think back on that the amount of time we put into it, I.

00:11:55:22 - 00:11:58:07

Maria Zondervan

Think I find the one thing that person does want.

00:11:58:11 - 00:11:58:22

Sam Wilson

Yeah.

00:11:59:11 - 00:12:02:01

Maria Zondervan

That is a statue of themselves. What is it?

00:12:02:07 - 00:12:03:19

Sam Wilson

What is it exactly.

00:12:03:19 - 00:12:06:14

Maria Zondervan

They gave it to. It was good enough.

00:12:06:14 - 00:12:11:13

Sam Wilson

Yeah, right, exactly. Here, here's your statue. That's funny. I'm gonna remember that one.

00:12:12:03 - 00:12:30:08

Maria Zondervan

That's a real thing. That's an actual case of. Yeah, it's heard that one on a on at a conference I was at somebody literally he didn't want his kids to inherit the property, but he wanted something to. He just hated his kids for some reason that he wants something as a legacy, but it wasn't going to be as good.

00:12:30:15 - 00:12:36:22

Maria Zondervan

So the guy said, What if I put up the statue of you on the property? So have the property. And he said, Yeah, they gave it to that a killer deal.

00:12:38:09 - 00:12:40:11

Sam Wilson

That's the funniest thing I've heard all day. Wow.

00:12:40:14 - 00:12:42:18

Maria Zondervan

It's not from my playbook, but it's a good one.

00:12:42:20 - 00:12:47:19

Sam Wilson

There you go. I like it. I like it. Start offering the absurd and they might take you up on it. That's.

00:12:48:00 - 00:12:51:24

Maria Zondervan

That's not what they want. What is it they want to look at?

00:12:52:11 - 00:13:11:18

Sam Wilson

Let's talk a little bit. That's funny. Thank you for sharing that. That's true. That's that's what yeah. That's some funny stuff right there. Tell me about the nonprofit you're running. I know that's a big part of your why, but tell me how you've done that and then I want to hear so let's hear a little bit about that and then I want to hear about just ways that you've scaled your business.

00:13:11:21 - 00:13:24:12

Sam Wilson

That's because you've got to again, a lot of things going on. So I can imagine that you've just had a lot of processes and systems and things you've had to put in place in order to make this all possible. So let's hear first about the nonprofit.

00:13:24:12 - 00:13:47:22

Maria Zondervan

Yeah, so Valhalla Villas is the name of the nonprofit, and the idea is to provide housing for autistic individuals who are longing for that independence, that they can't solely live on their own right. So 75% of autistic adults end up living with their parents forever. But the fact is, parents aren't always going to be there. And so those parents worry about who's going to take care of them later.

00:13:48:06 - 00:14:04:14

Maria Zondervan

And there's often this drive when they get in their thirties and forties, you know, they want to be fully independent, but they're still living in that parent's house. And so the parents still trying to control, you know, and so here they can live in a community where there's services that take care of somebody there to look after them.

00:14:05:01 - 00:14:24:10

Maria Zondervan

They can have roommates to cut down the costs of it, and they can learn independent living skills while they're have transportation provided because that's another biggie. They often don't drive and things like that. So kind of meets that needs. And the need right now is huge because one in every 44 kids in the US is now diagnosed with autism.

00:14:24:10 - 00:14:27:09

Maria Zondervan

I know. Blows my mind. Yeah.

00:14:29:06 - 00:14:42:00

Sam Wilson

How did you get that off the ground? I mean, that's I'm thinking drivers, that's busses that's you know, there's there's got to be some considerations on the way that properties are built on. I mean so many things go into that like how did you do it.

00:14:42:06 - 00:15:02:24

Maria Zondervan

So, so ask me again in a year because it's not fully off the ground yet. So this is this is a fairly new venture, but we are partnering with other nonprofits that have actually done this. They just haven't done it for autistic individuals. So servicing other special needs. So we're basically stealing their playbooks. Happy to share with us because they know the need is tremendous.

00:15:02:24 - 00:15:29:10

Maria Zondervan

So yeah, we're kicking it off here in central Florida and then we're going to take it nationwide because it's a very scalable plan. So two things we're going to build from the ground up using low tech funds. They have a special pocket just for special needs to do this. And then the other model is integrated housing, where we buy existing apartment complexes, which we already know how to do, and we integrate the services and shift about 25% of the population over to us to stick adult.

00:15:29:17 - 00:15:48:01

Sam Wilson

Got it. Okay, cool. Yeah. What to keep tabs on this. Keep us posted on how how this all all unfold but that's a really cool a really cool undertaking. Let's talk about scaling what are some things you feel like you've done really well when it comes to scaling and growing your business that other people should emulate?

00:15:48:24 - 00:16:06:20

Maria Zondervan

I think it's all about the networking getting in the rooms with the right people. It's amazing when you start talking to people about what you want to do, how many people are willing to help, you know, or just share their knowledge if you're in the right rooms, so be in the rooms with the people who are ahead of you.

00:16:07:02 - 00:16:10:20

Maria Zondervan

And when you start to be the most knowledgeable person in that room, move to the next room.

00:16:11:17 - 00:16:21:05

Sam Wilson

Yeah. Oh, that's great. That's absolutely great. What about when it comes to team? How how have you approached and or tackled the issue of team.

00:16:22:07 - 00:16:54:18

Maria Zondervan

Teams are tough. So I tried to do most of it through partnerships instead of employee primarily to get more. For one thing, it's less expensive. You're doing equity splits, they're going to get more in the end, but you're not having to come up with the money upfront, which is very beneficial, but also it's easier to break apart. You know, systems are working, you can bring someone in on one deal or two deals and if things are working well and you don't want to go forward and do more deals for them, you don't have to because you didn't form.

00:16:54:22 - 00:16:57:01

Maria Zondervan

They're not in your corporation necessarily.

00:16:57:08 - 00:17:23:16

Sam Wilson

Right, right. Right. No, I like that. I like that. And that certainly has been an approach that I've seen a lot of people take. Is that more partnership side of things? Let's rewind maybe the conversation a little bit where you were talking earlier about partnerships and the challenges that you can face inside of those partnerships and then working through a deal you're buying because of a partnership gone bad, how should someone evaluate a partnership like that to make sure that they don't end up in that same spot?

00:17:23:16 - 00:17:26:10

Sam Wilson

Maybe that some of these sellers are dealing with right now are?

00:17:27:08 - 00:17:48:16

Maria Zondervan

Well, you should definitely know the people you're getting into with, right? People talk about it being a marriage. You're going to be together with those people for a long time, especially if it's like a forever hold, you know, something like that. So you better know those people pretty well. Don't jump at the first person that says, Hey, I can take your deal, or I've got the network to sign for this giant loan and you're all excited about that.

00:17:48:16 - 00:18:11:23

Maria Zondervan

There are lots and lots of people who can do that, find the right fit. So it's about knowing what your vision is and and signing people that set that right. Don't try to sit there, make sure that they're fitting into your needs. So if you do, you have a mission statement. If you have your core values, you're looking for people that fit that.

00:18:11:23 - 00:18:15:15

Maria Zondervan

You're not going to alter your mission statement of core values to to fit those people.

00:18:15:20 - 00:18:41:17

Sam Wilson

Yeah. No, that's absolutely right. That's absolutely right. I love that. I absolutely love it. Maria, you've given us so much here to think about today, everything from acquiring Class B, like tech properties and how you can buy even those brand new low tech properties. Talk about affordable housing components. We've talked about the way that you're meeting the needs of special needs families and building your volleyball.

00:18:41:17 - 00:18:43:01

Sam Wilson

Can you pronounce that? Valhalla.

00:18:43:02 - 00:18:48:09

Maria Zondervan

Valhalla? It's Viking Blue Vikings. You know, there's a theme here. Yeah, it's. It's in the blood.

00:18:48:12 - 00:19:03:14

Sam Wilson

I got it. I love it. Valhalla Villas. And just how you're stealing that playbook. I mean, it goes back to even the success leaves clues thing like hey, we'll just go take what somebody else is doing and then we'll repeat that. But but bring it over to the to the artistic community. So I love love what you're doing.

00:19:03:14 - 00:19:08:07

Sam Wilson

Very, very cool. If our listeners want to get in touch with you or learn more about you, what is the best way to do that?

00:19:09:00 - 00:19:18:08

Maria Zondervan

Blue Vikings Capital dot com. All my social media links are there. There's links to Valhalla. There's links to everything there. So start with Blue Viking's Capital, Dakar.

00:19:18:12 - 00:19:25:13

Sam Wilson

Blue Vikings capital dot com. We will make sure we put that there in the show notes. Maria, thank you again for coming on the show today. I certainly appreciate it.

00:19:26:10 - 00:19:27:21

Maria Zondervan

You're very welcome. Thank you.

00:19:28:08 - 00:19:49:18

Sam Wilson

Hey, thanks for listening to the How to Scale Commercial Real Estate Podcast. If you can do me a favor and subscribe and leave us a review on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Google Podcasts or whatever platform it is you use to listen. If you can do that for us, that would be a fantastic help to the show. It helps us both attract new listeners as well as rank higher on those directories.

00:19:49:18 - 00:19:52:23

Sam Wilson

So appreciate you listening. Thanks so much and hope to catch you on the next episode.