How can we ever conceive the Truth if it’s totally beyond conception? In this talk Michael offers a personal account of his teacher using the koan “Shaoushan’s Three Phrases” in order to help him go beyond the mind. Michael also discusses how, in addition, to Shaoushan, the contemporary bodhisattva Fred Rogers supported the recognition of timeless perfection in all beings. Questions and comments deal with letting go of realization, as well as struggling with other practitioners during walking meditation.