“On the one hand, the cabinet minister has to understand that nature of the civil service role and the role of the permanent secretary as a leader alongside you…

“But I think the permanent secretary also has to respect that the cabinet minister is not necessarily someone to be shaped in content or style to the previous way of doing things.”

In this very special episode, Sir David Bell and Ed Balls explore the minister-permanent secretary relationship.

The two joined forces in 2007 at what was the Department for Children, Schools and Families – David as permanent secretary and Ed as secretary of state. They discuss first impressions and how they built a coherent team and vision together based on chemistry, trust, and openness, with plenty of fun thrown in there too.

But it wasn’t all plain sailing. The department faced a series of crises including SATs results, payments of Educational Maintenance Grants, and the tragedy of Baby P. Both Ed and David talk about how they worked together in a crisis, and personally managed the pressure.

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