In this chapter of Darwin or Design, I talk with Dr James Shapiro. Dr Shapiro is a part of the Department of Biochemistry and Molecular Biology at the University of Chicago. Dr Shapiro and I talk about his work on sentient cells and other radical ways for looking at how bacteria work. It should be noted that Dr Shapiro is not really an ID advocate but instead advances a non-Darwinian approach to evolution based on discoveries about natural genetic engineering. Dr Shapiro thinks the evidence for descent with modifications has been strengthened by genome sequencing but suspects that molecular genetics is inconsistent with Darwinian notions of gradualism and accidental genetic change.