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Jim Cavanagh '13
In the third of this three-part series, Maura Sweeney '07 speaks with Jim Cavanagh '13 about forging his own path from Holy Cross into the legal profession.
Recorded September 11, 2019
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Transcript
Jim: I realized, wow. I think what I learned at Holy Cross and I talked about the excitement of being a history major and getting lost in the stacks at Dinand. You just learned the importance of being a learner and learning that if you think, and even though things are difficult, if you buckle down and read and try to learn, you will learn and then when you do learn and you do put in the work that you can contribute and you can and you can serve.
Maura: Welcome to Mission-Driven, where we speak with alumni who are leveraging their Holy Cross education to make a meaningful difference in the world around them. I'm your host, Maura Sweeney from the class of 2007, director of alumni career development at Holy Cross. I'm delighted to welcome to today's show.
In part three of this three part series, we speak with Jim Cavanagh. Jim graduated from Holy Cross in 2013 and Notre Dame law school in 2015. Despite being a fellow history major like his siblings, Mary and Joe, Jim decided to apply his Holy Cross education differently. We hear about Jim's decision to try out teaching theology before going to law school. Today Jim works as an associate at Jones day and talks about how his Holy Cross training has prepared him for the multidimensional work that he does. We wrap up by bringing the three of them back together for a speed round about their favorite memories from Holy Cross.
I'm excited now to turn to Jim, class of 2013, also a history major. You taught theology at Saint Sebastian school in Needham for two years before choosing to go to Notre Dame law where you graduated in 2018. You're an associate at Jones day doing something a little bit different, working across practice groups including business litigation, merger and acquisitions, banking and finance, tax credit transactions and pro bono work. You similarly take on pro bono work with the TGC Memorial fund and you've received your own slate of awards while at Notre Dame including the American law Institute CLE award for scholarship and leadership and the faculty award for excellence in civil procedure and health law, which, being recognized by faculty is really significant because I know that law school faculty seem to be some of the toughest out there.
Jim: Right. Actually it's funny. So those awards are given based on your exam, which you're anonymous. You have a number. So I think on my civil procedure professor in particular, must've been like, “that kid won the award?” I think some of the questions I asked during my... That was my first classes I took in law school and I just remember asking a few questions, realizing, Oh, wow, I really don't know much, but that was a good... I mean, there's so many experiences in law school, but that was certainly a gratifying moment where I realized in that first semester I'd certainly come a long way.
Maura: Right. Well and almost gives your professor the thought of, Oh wow, I shouldn't have underestimated this person.
Jim: Right. And he never did anything to make me think that he was thought little of me at all. I just remember my own questions thinking, wow Jim, that was not a good question. Just these funny experiences. I think a lot of law students, a lot of anyone who's gone to law school certainly has these humbling moments, especially in their first year. So, that was a nice... When I realized I won that award, when it came out the highest exam score to me, I was pretty surprised myself. So yeah, that's a fun accolade to have.
Maura: That's great. That's great. And I know you talked in preparation for this conversation about choosing to really forge your own career path separate from Mary and Joe, and so you described it as choosing the world of deals instead of the world of cases. Could you talk to me a little bit about that?
Jim: Right. So think little... I certainly didn't know this when I was at Holy Cross and you don't even really understand it when you go to law school so much, but you really, once you get into practice, especially at a big law firm, you realize the different things lawyers do.
Maura: Sure, right.
Jim: And specifically there's a big divide, I mean, there's a divide between public interest work and private practice, but even just even in private practice, there's a big divide between transactional work and litigation. Litigation's, I think with the impression of everyone has a lawyer doing, what Joe and Mary do, where you go to court, you're representing a client in the lawsuit. And transactional work is you're helping a client complete a business deal so there's no judge involved. Right? You're not representing a plaintiff or defendant, you're representing, often it can be a seller or buyer or lender or borrower and so it's a completely different animal in a way. You're trying to complete the business deal. It's a collaborative... Even though there are negotiations since things, it's more of a quote when it's done well.
I think a collaborative exercise with the other parties counsel trying to get this deal done and in law school, even though you can learn about transactional work, there are courses on corporations and merchandise acquisitions, corporate finance. It's always in the litigation context. When years after this deal ended, it fell apart and everyone's suing each other. And what do the contracts say? What are our indemnities? So it's just a whole different world. So, it's like I said, when I interned with Jones Day after my second year of law school, it was my first exposure to wow, there's this whole other side to the legal profession that I know very little about, certainly. I mean, my dad being a litigator and Joe and Mary being litigators, civil litigators. And so I remember being overwhelmed and at first reluctant to try it. But my first year at Jones Day, it's neat, they don't give you an offer into a practice group. They say they give you a year to essentially be a free agent and work across practice groups.
Maura: That's fantastic.
Jim: And it's a lot, it's been great. It's difficult in a sense. There's a learning curve with almost every project.
Maura: Sure.
Jim: Because it's with different people, it's a different practice. So with that you move from practice to practice, so you're always learning again. So, even after eight months it's only then you start to maybe get a second project with one group and you can take everything you learned from your first product, first deal or case. And so for me, it was a very discern slowly that I learned that at Holy Cross and it certainly was a slow discernment process for me because I always imagined that I wanted to be a litigator, I wanted to be a trial lawyer.
And I don't know just getting out into practice even though it hasn't been so long, you see very much the practice of law is way more than the theory you learn in school where you're talking about cases in the abstract and reading appellate opinions. There's a human side of law that I think, law schools have gotten better about it now. There are a lot of internship, externship opportunities and clinical practice things... Clinical courses you can take, but more or less it's theory and then you get out and practice and you see the human side of it. Which I think is really what most of lawyer... Joe and Mary can speak to this better than me, but lawyers really spend most of their time doing client management, interacting with opposing counsel. And I don't know, for me, I was lawyered into transactional work.
One thing about it is, the reality is, it's quicker. Deals are shorter than a case. A case, a lawsuit, I know Joe and Mary can say this can last for years. A deal, the ones I've worked on, I know their deals, I can get stressed out maybe for a while, but they usually take a few months at most from the ones I worked on. So it's fun because there's a start and an end and it's also really intense and you're trying to get it done. But I've just found it's really exciting because you're working, the end result is something exciting. A business is getting bought, a business is growing. And I think it's really fun to prospectively make your client aware of problems or where I think litigators jump in and crisis mode where like I said, a business deal has fallen apart or something, a conflict has arisen in a person's life or in the client's life if their corporation and you're there to really guide them through that disaster, which is incredible profession.
And I know there's so many people who do that well, but I thought it was really appealing to work on the prospective side where you look at a deal, you look at the transaction your client's trying to complete it and you say, well, here's some things you need to think about. Because I know we wouldn't like to think that this transaction would fall apart, but if it did, you have to be mindful that you have a lot of exposure here if we don't take this step. And I think that's a real skill to have the foresight to identify the issues that can be an issue. Trying to communicate those to your client without scaring them, without getting them overwhelmed with the hypothetical, which might not happen, but also forcing them to be realistic and to think beyond the moment where you sign this deal and you have to go forward with whatever you've agreed to buy, agreed to sell, or agree to invest in.
And now, so it's been fun. So like I said, I discerned slowly. So I think I'm about a year in, so I have to choose a practice group. So, that's coming in the next few weeks. So, it's not going to be a litigation group. It's most likely going to be... it's going to be a transactional group. So, that's a long winded answer, but I hope I described a little bit about my encounter with learning about the other side of law.
Maura: Well, and it seems like discernment has been something that you've really carried from Holy Cross because you didn't jump into a lot right away. And you did take a step and you taught for a few years. So talk to me a little bit about that decision to really take another step before jumping in.
Jim: Right. Well, I couldn't have told you I started... I graduated in 13. My last day of school at Holy Cross was... Graduation was probably around May 20th and then September 1st, I was the teacher. I think I got a haircut, bought a tie and all of a sudden I was Mr. Cavanagh, teaching a class of seventh and eighth graders. And it was quite a transition.
And I don't think I could have told you in January of 2013 that I would be... if you told me I was teaching the next year, I would have said really? I don't think that's going to happen. So, even though I did say discern slowly that certainly happened quickly, looking back at the grand scheme of my life and just to tell you how it happened. So, I always knew I wanted to go law school. I think even though in the last few years, I think my career is going to be very different than what I imagined it would be just from growing up in our family. And our dad was a litigator and he always had... I always loved talking to him about his job and different things about his cases and I thought it was very appealing and it was just very appealing to me.
So, I always wanted to go, but I just knew I wasn't ready. It was always, even as a senior in college, I thought, I want to do that, but I just knew I didn't want to go right away. And I remember, I had really had no idea what I wanted to do. I think I had applied to some Fulbright scholarship, a Fulbright scholarship with Tony Cashman had helped me apply and so I was waiting on that, but I didn't really know what else. And I remember studying for finals in December. December, 2012 the first semester of my senior year, and there was an email that got shot out from the career services office and it was for internships at a prep schools and it didn't apply to me. It was a applied to rising juniors, rising seniors where you could intern at a summer camp, I forget the... Some New England prep schools and I thought just, I went to an all boy Catholic school and Rhode Island and it was big.
It was about a thousand boys. Some of my brothers had gone to a prep school and I just knew that it's a very small community. They all had very good experiences and played sports. And I also just was familiar with the model where you know, the teachers, they teach in their small classroom size and then your teachers are also your coaches. And the teachers are really a part of the community, especially at those schools. And I don't know, just an image of me teaching and then coaching, like hockey. I liked, I didn't play hockey here, but I love hockey and I just thought, wow, wouldn't that be a lot of fun? But I kind of dismissed it thinking I couldn't do that. I've never thought of doing that. And then I was home, it was around Christmas and my sister and I, not Mary or our sister Carol, who's also a lawyer. She started to cross examine me about what I was going to do.
Maura: That's what the holidays are good for.
Jim: Right. Exactly. What are you going to do? You're a senior, the clocks ticking. Do you have a plan? And I don't know. Well I just didn't want to say, I didn't have anything. I said, well, I've thought about teaching. And she said, Oh wow. And she said, where? I was like, maybe a prep school, I don't know, just from that one thought. And she put me in touch with a guy who was an alum here. He's works at CM now, guy Mike Schell. And he's just a wonderful guy. And he was a student here and had done the same thing, went right to teaching in a prep school. And so I had the long break and he was a friend of my sisters. So I gave him a call and just talked to him about what I was interested in.
I said, I really haven't thought about this much, but it excites me. The idea of teaching. I think it'd be fun. And I know it would be challenging and everything. And he said no. And I think he identified with what I was feeling as a senior in college and he was my guy to applying to different prep schools around that might be open to hiring a kid right out of college. He wasn't an education major, no prior teaching experience. So I interviewed at some places, made it to the final rounds and nothing was happening. But then I got an email from him that his school where he taught was looking for a new religion teacher, at St Sebastian's. So I went and I interviewed and I met the headmaster Bill Burke, who's a wonderful guy and the assistant, who was a Holy Cross alum.
And I just spent a day at the school and right away fell in love with it and one of my good friends from college Luke Sullivan, went to St. Sebs and I knew he loved his high school and I immediately thought, wow, this is a place I could picture myself. And sure enough they thought they could picture me there too. So it was great. I had an offer and I had a job. Spring semester, senior year. So I started that and I know... so that's how I ended up there and that was just an incredible experience and I just loved every minute of being there and it was kind of funny. It was one of those things where a year, December, 2013 I was coaching the JV hockey team, I had taught a full day class, was at the rink and just having fun. I thought, this is funny. A year ago I pictured myself doing this and didn't think it... And really laughed at it. I'm actually here doing it. So, that was great.
Maura: It's sometimes hard to believe that work can also be fun.
Jim: Right?
Maura: Like I can get paid to do this.
Jim: And that was, I remember that too, right, being at hockey practice coaching a game. And I'm thinking, I guess I'm at work right now, which is pretty cool. And actually it's funny I mentioned to you, I did some work this morning and cool beans and a bunch of students I taught who were in seventh and eighth grade are actually now here as students. And I was hoping maybe I could scare one of them. Like, Hey, like I used to do or just see one of them. And so, yeah, it was a great experience.
Maura: Yeah, that's fantastic. I also read that you did an internship at the US attorney's office.
Jim: Yes.
Maura: Along your path of figuring out what you want to do. I'd love to hear a little bit about how that's informed your work.
Jim: Right? So it was after my first year of law school. After your first year of law school is interesting because it's really a year in the books. You're learning law and the abstract and like I mentioned this earlier, you really know very little about the practice of lot itself, but you've learned a lot of legal theory and about the substantive bodies of law. So, as a first year law student, they're not too many options to intern because no one's really willing to pay you to do anything. But it's a great opportunity to work for a government agency that might have unpaid internships and have a program where you can come in and they'll give you some assignments and you'll get to see a lot of action.
Maura: Right.
Jim: Because I mean US attorney's office is interesting experience because they're federal prosecutors, so they're in court all the time. So, I spent a lot of time that summer, just really, I mean, more so than the work I did, just sitting in court watching... I got to watch a full jury criminal jury trial. I got to watch sentencings, plea agreements and also did some research and stuff to help an attorney. I remember that was fun doing some research and an attorney was taking it with him to argue it for the judge. I hope it went well, but one thing, so I do something very different now, right? I'm in private practice, transactional work, but it's something to see the criminal justice system at work, is I think just something as a citizen, as a lawyer especially, is worth witnessing and knowing something about, because I mean so much, sadly, a lot of people... I think Mary spoke to it earlier when she said, we have an incredible legal system in the United States and so often, right?
We just take it for granted, especially if you're from here and having lived in a different part of the world with a different legal system. But a lot of people unfortunately, right, like one of the times they really realize that they are part of a society governed by laws is if they have an encounter with the criminal justice system. If they find themselves charged with something. And so just knowing how that works and kind of just, I think any, every lawyer has an obligation to know a little bit about it. And also seeing it... I also, you understand that it's, for the system to work well, it takes a good lawyers, both good judges, good prosecutors, good defendants and good law clerks who help the judge and do research for the judge. And I think just that summer broadened me to realize that this system has worked and it's working every day. There are a million cases before these judges, these judges are working hard, these lawyers are working hard.
And I think it really, if anything just as a first year law student just makes you more aware of how important the criminal justice system is, that the people in it do a good job, the people in it are committed and act ethically. And also too that, just as a lawyer, you should know something about this because you might, before you know it, now you're a lawyer, right? So someone years down the road, hopefully I think all the guys I met here, upstanding citizens, but if they found themselves in trouble. You might get a phone call, might be helpful to know a little bit something about it, but so it was a good experience.
Maura: That's fantastic. And how has the Holy Cross's mission influenced your life?
Jim: Right. The Holy Cross mission for me, like I said, discern slowly and I think if you show up on campus, you're 18 it's really your first time away from home. Even though home is only 45 minutes away in Rhode Island. And I think of, just in four years you've come a long way or you should. And I think certainly Holy Cross and I think Mary and Joe harped on this in their experiences that, you do mature quite a bit in college. Just, I mean, you're 18 when you arrive, you're 22 when you graduate. So I think, I do remember it just being here and I like to think that my awareness of being mission driven grew and the whole Jesuit philosophy to be, men and women for others. And the idea that you should always be mindful of the questions of who is God, who is God calling me to be, and who is God calling me to be for others. And I think just as I went through my time here, I became more and more aware of that and I took more advantage of the opportunities Holy Cross offered to discern what God is calling you to do.
I went on the spiritual exercises. Actually the winter of my senior year, it was right around the time this whole teaching decision happened. And I remember I'd actually just found out I didn't get my Fulbright and I really was out of... I didn't know what I was going to do. I knew I had this idea about teaching and I just remember going on the exercises and thinking, okay, this is the time for your discernment. And really the only thing I discerned was all you can do is just respond to whatever's happening in front of you to treat the people around you with love and try to do the next right thing. To try to give your full attention to the task in front of you because that's God's plan for you that day. The people and the circumstances, he places in front of you.
And I remember I read a book by a Jesuit, during my experience on that retreat and that was kind of... and my mom just gave it to me before I went and it was really, I think all for a purpose. And I remember so, so when I say, how's that affects how Holy Cross drives my mission. Now, it's interesting, right? Because again, this has been a big transition year for me. I just graduated from law school, I moved back to the East coast and I've been working across practice groups and with that it's been a little chaotic. At times you feel overwhelmed and it always comes back to, what does God want me to do in this circumstance with these people I'm dealing with? And I think a lot of it just stems from the academic experience here that you should do your work well. Right.
That we all have gifts. That part of being men, women for others is giving the best of yourself to task. So even if it's the most monotonous, tedious task on this deal that you're asked to do as a junior associate, you're called to do that to the best of your ability. And so right now I'd say it drives my mission because you want to serve others. But it also just made me really aware of the way you serve others is by serving who's in front of you. And I've found that just to keep your sanity in a chaotic year, practicing law and to find God in it, is you really have to stay in the moment and do your best with what you have in front of you.
Maura: Well and that probably ties in, you know my next question of this, is about your personal mission and I'm sure it's tied into that. So I guess, how have you taken that and really created your own mission?
Jim: Right. So right now, I think my mission is really just to become confident in what you're doing. And I remember showing up at Holy Cross and being a history major and really realizing I don't write well. And so much, I mean, this is, I think just an example of Holy Cross and how the professors were great, but they were honest and blunt and said, your writing's weak. You need to get better. And I remember it took so long to get better. It took draft after draft. And I remember taking different courses and visiting professors at office hours who were always willing to help. But I remember getting over the hump, and I'm not going to say I'm a great writer, but I'm going to say that I'm certainly a better writer than I was when I started here.
Mary: I guess your Civil Procedure professor thought you were pretty good.
Jim: A good part of it was multiple choice.
And I think, so right now, what drives me is getting better and gaining in competencies because I've learned that law is extremely complicated and it's a bit daunting when you realize there's so much I don't know. But the thing is you can just keep at it and as you grow in competencies, it gives you more opportunities to serve others. Right. Because I don't know where I'll end up in my career. I mean, Joe and Mary, they graduated from law school a few years before me, so I'm not exactly sure where everything's going. But that's certainly driving me right now. How can I be, utilize my gifts, develop them the most I can. So I can serve others the way God calls me to.
Maura: That's wonderful.
And think back to when you were a student and you've talked about it a little bit, you don't have to think back as far. What stands out to you about your experience on campus and how has it really prepared you for some of the challenges that you've faced?
Jim: Right. I mentioned it in my previous answer, but certainly I found as a history major, that you certainly had the opportunity to become a better student. You had the opportunity to really develop your critical thinking because of professors who cared, professors who pushed you and professors who are really passionate about what they taught. I can think of so many examples. I think of my first class I took with Stephanie Yuhl, it was my Montserrat class, I believe they still have the Montserrat program and I wasn't just a history major because Carol, I mean, because of Mary and Joe were, but I mean certainly that helped and I thought I would be interested, but I remember taking this class on World War II and Vietnam and thinking it would just be a military history class, but with professor Yuhl it was very different. It was really about the memory of those wars and how we as a society now choose to memorialize them and what narratives get told and whose narrative get told and who are the stakeholders.
And you realize that there just so many layers that complicate these issues. And it just really opened my eyes to what a complex world we have and the need to be aware of that and the need to be a voice in the conversation. So with that, it helps if you can analyze, it helps if you can critically think and it helps if you can write well. And so I think to my experience at Holy Cross, it was certainly one where I grew quite a bit and I remember after that experience in class thinking, wow, I think I want to be a history major and I chose to be a history major. And then I just taking other courses with Gwen Miller, with Father K and having these moments where you're looking at correspondence from members of Congress, looking at the writings of the Jesuits in their encounter with native Americans hundreds of years ago.
And you really get into the primary sources. And what was the experience of this person? What are they saying about it? And I just remember it was a neat experience to have your interest inflamed in so many... In an area of study. And I think that helps for anyone who's a student here and you go to law school because of lot of... Even if you took some time off... like I didn't take time or you did something different before going to law school, you have the muscle memory of what it takes to be a serious student, to be a critical thinker, to analyze a document, to analyze someone's writings and to write well. And I think, so certainly when I think back, especially after going to law school, I think those experiences at Holy Cross certainly prepared me.
Maura: Right. And even just the practice of learning someone else's perspective through that analysis must be so valuable.
Jim: Oh certainly. I'm not a litigator, but I mean, so much of the study of law is right? There are two sides of the case and there's a different way and you read two different briefs that are written about the same... Based off the same facts. They can try to tell such a different story. I think Joe and Mary can probably speak to that with more detail and with more experience than I can. So always being mindful of what is the other narrative? What narrative am I overlooking? And you see that too, just applying it and you can always apply that in whatever you're doing, in transactional work negotiations. What does the other side want out of this deal? Why would they care about this?
And when you do that and you have a sense of where someone else is coming from, it just makes for more beneficial dialogue. And then in a pragmatic sense, it's way better for your clients, way more efficient, if the lawyers aren't talking past each other. If you're really listening and appreciating and understanding that one issue that you might be raising is important to them and you might, based on your client's position, it doesn't really matter to you, it matters to them. So taking the time to dialogue with them and then it just gives you more credit going forward. When you have something you want to talk about. So, yeah, certainly very valuable.
Maura: Fantastic. And so this you've probably touched on also, about how your Holy Cross education influence the way that you practice law.
Jim: Right. I guess, one thing is to just be willing to put in the work to... It's tough, especially in law because you bill per hour and you're very busy and so it's important to learn efficiency, but it's also important to do your work well. Because that's serving your client... To really... You get a long complicated contract, really sitting down and analyzing it and digging in, getting into the weeds on things. I mean, it takes some judgment. You don't want to spin your tires too much on things. And that comes, I think with time, knowing what issues to look for, what things aren't important. But really I think Holy Cross really taught me from the get go.
As I started the path that led me to law school and I knew the practice of law, that you really just need a great attention to detail. That you really have to take pride in your work and do it well. Because it certainly becomes a habit and I can see, actually it's interesting, I feel like law school in a way is a moment, it's the culmination of you putting into practice all the skills you've learned as a student. Because in law school, especially the first year, you only have one exam, per class, per semester. There was no study guide or anything. So it was really on you to be organized, to make sure that you're listening, to make sure that you've developed critical thinking skills to be identify what's important in your course. And then, you put that, then you write an exam and hopefully you had the right skills.
And then law school prepares you for law because it's really that practice. It's really just the same practice that I started here at Holy Cross of having attention to detail. Putting in the work to analyze, to read, to think and if you've been doing that for a long time, you know that's how you have to do it. You have to put in the work, but also too, you're just better at it. So certainly, I think, that's how Holy Cross is carried into my practice of law. But you still got to do it. You still got to break a sweat always. But I learned that a long time ago, I think.
Maura: Yeah. Yeah. Oh good. What has been the most satisfying or rewarding moment for you in your work so far?
Jim: That's a good question. A recent experience actually and I think it's great because it touches on something that I learned here at Holy Cross and I credit Holy Cross are helping me have this experience. Like I said, I'm not going to be a litigator, but for about six months this year I did quite a bit of litigation work. And I remember on the first day I got to my office, there was this big stack of briefings on my desk and I had an email that I was being put on part of this case team in this massive lawsuit that had been going on for a long time. And my job was to help prepare for depositions. And depositions, right, are pretty much just having a witness testify outside of court where a lawyer, it's not in court, but lawyers go and one lawyer questions a witness and the other lawyer defends the witness and it helps you build a record of the case and just different facts and going forward.
And so I had prepared for the... Helped partners in my law firm and other associates prepare for these depositions. And a lot of that is grunt work. There's so many doc... These two major institutions are suing each other. So they're just a lot of documents. So you spend a lot of time reading documents, it's a lot of grunt work and you have to pull ones you think are relevant, things that will come up in this deposition. And I remember being just overwhelmed by the case when I first got there because it was very complicated matter and we were thinking, how will I ever understand this much less be ready to look at hundreds, maybe thousands of documents and be able to identify ones which could be problematic or worth asking a witness about. And I remember in June I went to New York with the partner in the deposition for this case.
And I remember he had asked me for the months leading up to it, just different questions about different documents that had come up in this case. And I would read them, analyze them and shoot them off in email and everything and I remember we were preparing for the deposition and we finally started the deposition and it was the first one I actually attended and it was just a neat moment for me because when I realized I was part of a team. I was part of this litigation team and I was there on the record at the deposition on behalf of a client and also too, I remembered this case was so complicated but the deposition lasted eight hours and this was a very important witness and I realized I knew everything about the case or there was a lot I still didn't know, but I knew so much that I was with it for the seven, eight hours we were there.
Every question, I knew why it mattered, I knew why we were asking it. And also it was rewarding... I helped prepare the outline, seeing documents that I was asked to look at a few weeks ago and I didn't even really, just because the partner is busy, I hadn't received much feedback, some questions, points I had raised come up in the questions. So it was a rewarding moment because I realized, wow, I think what I learned at Holy Cross and I talked about the excitement of being a history major and getting lost in the stacks at Dinand and you just learned the importance of being a learner and learning that if you think, and even though things are difficult, if you buckle down and read and try to learn, you will learn. And then when you do learn and you do put in the work that you can contribute and you can serve.
And so I felt, even though I don't want to be a litigator, that was a great moment for me. So, I'd say, just like I said, you got to break a sweat. Probably Holy Cross taught you that. I think I did that for six months, leading up to that deposition. I felt like a rewarding moment for me.
Maura: Yeah. Well, given what you know now, what advice do you have for someone who's interested in pursuing law?
Jim: Right. This is certainly, I think, I know you asked Joe and Mary this question, but certainly for me, being right out of law school, I think it's certain... I had to consider, I mean, I had the discern law school in more recent time than they did and I'd say, one I've been really blown away by just, like I said, especially going to my firm, all the different opportunities that are for lawyers. So, if you're a science person, there are opportunities for in law in life and health sciences, in intellectual property if you're interested. If you're, I mean, people were passionate about civil rights and passionate and about equality injustice. There are obviously major opportunities especially in public interest in government.
And so one, I'd say, don't think you're pigeonholing yourself by going to law school because there are a lot of different ways you can go. But also too, it is an incredible investment of time, energy, and also money too. So, law school can be very expensive. I think it's very much worth it if you're going to be a serious student there and take the time to learn. And I think of how I grew in three years of law school. And so, I'd say certainly think about it, pray about it, discern it, but also too know, I'd say talk to as many lawyers as you can because there's so many different experiences and it's actually funny for me, because I realized when I showed up at law school, even though I had three siblings who were lawyers and a father whose lawyer, I knew so little about what law school would be like, but going through it and I thought that was really funny for a person who had always wanted to go, but I realized I was really happy that I went.
So that was my experience, but certainly I'd say take the time before you invest, but also know I'm an optimist and I'm a promoter of it, thinking there's a lot you can do with it.
Maura: Fantastic. Fantastic.
Well now to wrap things up, I have a series of speed round questions. Quick questions, quick answers. And for this I'll ask the question and then go around and hear everyone's answer. So are you ready to tackle it? Yeah. Okay.
What was your favorite dorm?
Joe: Lehy
Maura: Joe. Yep. Mary?
Mary: Mulledy
Jim: Hanselman.
Maura: Fantastic. Favorite meal on campus or favorite Cool Beans order, Joe?
Joe: Omelets, made to order with waffles at Kimball on weekend mornings only.
Maura: Mary?
Mary: Pizza from the pizza kitchen.
Maura: Fantastic. And Jim?
Jim: Chicken parm night, definitely.
Maura: Very nice. Very nice. Favorite class? Joe?
Joe: Contemporary Christian Morality with Father Linnane.
Maura: Mary?
Mary: Law and Human Rights in China with professor Karen Turner.
Maura: Fantastic. Jim?
Jim: Understanding Mary with Father Gavin.
Maura: Wonderful. Favorite professor, Joe?
Joe: Father Linnane. Father Kuzniewski.
Maura: Mary?
Mary: I guess. Professor Turner.
Maura: Great. Jim?
Jim: Professor Yuhl, she was great.
Maura: Favorite memory? Joe?
Joe: Winning the Mac Hockey Championship my senior year.
Maura: Not running down to Kimball and back?
Joe: No, I blocked that one out.
Maura: Great. Mary?
Mary: The last few nights before graduation at the heart center.
Maura: Jim?
Jim: I will say, senior year going to the Cape with my friends, with all my friends I had gotten to know over the last four years. It was incredible.
Maura: Great. And last question, best part about being a Holy Cross alum, Joe?
Joe: The pride you take in the whole spirit of the school and being able to say that you're a part of that.
Maura: Mary?
Mary: I think just knowing you are part of such an excellent tradition and excellent institution. Something that you always have with you.
Maura: Jim?
Jim: In a similar way, remembering where you came from and remembering the mission you were taught here and how even though you can stray from it and it might not always feel present to you that I think just being here for four years, just being... I appreciate being ingrained with, we're supposed to be men and women for others.
Maura: Fantastic. Wonderful and that's a wrap. Thank you.
That's our show. I hope you enjoyed hearing about just one of the many ways that Holy Cross alumni have been inspired by the mission to be men and women for and with others.
A special thanks to today's guests and everyone at Holy Cross who has contributed to making this podcast a reality.
If you or someone you know would like to be featured on this podcast, please send us an email at alumnicareers@holycross.edu. If you like what you hear, then please leave us a review.
This podcast is brought to you by the office of alumni relations at the college of the Holy Cross. You can subscribe for future episodes wherever you find your podcasts.
I'm your host, Maura Sweeney, and this is Mission-Driven. In the words of Saint Ignatius of Loyola, "now go forth and set the world on fire."
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In the third of this three-part series, Maura Sweeney '07 speaks with Jim Cavanagh '13 about forging his own path from Holy Cross into the legal profession.
Recorded September 11, 2019
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Transcript
Jim: I realized, wow. I think what I learned at Holy Cross and I talked about the excitement of being a history major and getting lost in the stacks at Dinand. You just learned the importance of being a learner and learning that if you think, and even though things are difficult, if you buckle down and read and try to learn, you will learn and then when you do learn and you do put in the work that you can contribute and you can and you can serve.
Maura: Welcome to Mission-Driven, where we speak with alumni who are leveraging their Holy Cross education to make a meaningful difference in the world around them. I'm your host, Maura Sweeney from the class of 2007, director of alumni career development at Holy Cross. I'm delighted to welcome to today's show.
In part three of this three part series, we speak with Jim Cavanagh. Jim graduated from Holy Cross in 2013 and Notre Dame law school in 2015. Despite being a fellow history major like his siblings, Mary and Joe, Jim decided to apply his Holy Cross education differently. We hear about Jim's decision to try out teaching theology before going to law school. Today Jim works as an associate at Jones day and talks about how his Holy Cross training has prepared him for the multidimensional work that he does. We wrap up by bringing the three of them back together for a speed round about their favorite memories from Holy Cross.
I'm excited now to turn to Jim, class of 2013, also a history major. You taught theology at Saint Sebastian school in Needham for two years before choosing to go to Notre Dame law where you graduated in 2018. You're an associate at Jones day doing something a little bit different, working across practice groups including business litigation, merger and acquisitions, banking and finance, tax credit transactions and pro bono work. You similarly take on pro bono work with the TGC Memorial fund and you've received your own slate of awards while at Notre Dame including the American law Institute CLE award for scholarship and leadership and the faculty award for excellence in civil procedure and health law, which, being recognized by faculty is really significant because I know that law school faculty seem to be some of the toughest out there.
Jim: Right. Actually it's funny. So those awards are given based on your exam, which you're anonymous. You have a number. So I think on my civil procedure professor in particular, must've been like, “that kid won the award?” I think some of the questions I asked during my... That was my first classes I took in law school and I just remember asking a few questions, realizing, Oh, wow, I really don't know much, but that was a good... I mean, there's so many experiences in law school, but that was certainly a gratifying moment where I realized in that first semester I'd certainly come a long way.
Maura: Right. Well and almost gives your professor the thought of, Oh wow, I shouldn't have underestimated this person.
Jim: Right. And he never did anything to make me think that he was thought little of me at all. I just remember my own questions thinking, wow Jim, that was not a good question. Just these funny experiences. I think a lot of law students, a lot of anyone who's gone to law school certainly has these humbling moments, especially in their first year. So, that was a nice... When I realized I won that award, when it came out the highest exam score to me, I was pretty surprised myself. So yeah, that's a fun accolade to have.
Maura: That's great. That's great. And I know you talked in preparation for this conversation about choosing to really forge your own career path separate from Mary and Joe, and so you described it as choosing the world of deals instead of the world of cases. Could you talk to me a little bit about that?
Jim: Right. So think little... I certainly didn't know this when I was at Holy Cross and you don't even really understand it when you go to law school so much, but you really, once you get into practice, especially at a big law firm, you realize the different things lawyers do.
Maura: Sure, right.
Jim: And specifically there's a big divide, I mean, there's a divide between public interest work and private practice, but even just even in private practice, there's a big divide between transactional work and litigation. Litigation's, I think with the impression of everyone has a lawyer doing, what Joe and Mary do, where you go to court, you're representing a client in the lawsuit. And transactional work is you're helping a client complete a business deal so there's no judge involved. Right? You're not representing a plaintiff or defendant, you're representing, often it can be a seller or buyer or lender or borrower and so it's a completely different animal in a way. You're trying to complete the business deal. It's a collaborative... Even though there are negotiations since things, it's more of a quote when it's done well.
I think a collaborative exercise with the other parties counsel trying to get this deal done and in law school, even though you can learn about transactional work, there are courses on corporations and merchandise acquisitions, corporate finance. It's always in the litigation context. When years after this deal ended, it fell apart and everyone's suing each other. And what do the contracts say? What are our indemnities? So it's just a whole different world. So, it's like I said, when I interned with Jones Day after my second year of law school, it was my first exposure to wow, there's this whole other side to the legal profession that I know very little about, certainly. I mean, my dad being a litigator and Joe and Mary being litigators, civil litigators. And so I remember being overwhelmed and at first reluctant to try it. But my first year at Jones Day, it's neat, they don't give you an offer into a practice group. They say they give you a year to essentially be a free agent and work across practice groups.
Maura: That's fantastic.
Jim: And it's a lot, it's been great. It's difficult in a sense. There's a learning curve with almost every project.
Maura: Sure.
Jim: Because it's with different people, it's a different practice. So with that you move from practice to practice, so you're always learning again. So, even after eight months it's only then you start to maybe get a second project with one group and you can take everything you learned from your first product, first deal or case. And so for me, it was a very discern slowly that I learned that at Holy Cross and it certainly was a slow discernment process for me because I always imagined that I wanted to be a litigator, I wanted to be a trial lawyer.
And I don't know just getting out into practice even though it hasn't been so long, you see very much the practice of law is way more than the theory you learn in school where you're talking about cases in the abstract and reading appellate opinions. There's a human side of law that I think, law schools have gotten better about it now. There are a lot of internship, externship opportunities and clinical practice things... Clinical courses you can take, but more or less it's theory and then you get out and practice and you see the human side of it. Which I think is really what most of lawyer... Joe and Mary can speak to this better than me, but lawyers really spend most of their time doing client management, interacting with opposing counsel. And I don't know, for me, I was lawyered into transactional work.
One thing about it is, the reality is, it's quicker. Deals are shorter than a case. A case, a lawsuit, I know Joe and Mary can say this can last for years. A deal, the ones I've worked on, I know their deals, I can get stressed out maybe for a while, but they usually take a few months at most from the ones I worked on. So it's fun because there's a start and an end and it's also really intense and you're trying to get it done. But I've just found it's really exciting because you're working, the end result is something exciting. A business is getting bought, a business is growing. And I think it's really fun to prospectively make your client aware of problems or where I think litigators jump in and crisis mode where like I said, a business deal has fallen apart or something, a conflict has arisen in a person's life or in the client's life if their corporation and you're there to really guide them through that disaster, which is incredible profession.
And I know there's so many people who do that well, but I thought it was really appealing to work on the prospective side where you look at a deal, you look at the transaction your client's trying to complete it and you say, well, here's some things you need to think about. Because I know we wouldn't like to think that this transaction would fall apart, but if it did, you have to be mindful that you have a lot of exposure here if we don't take this step. And I think that's a real skill to have the foresight to identify the issues that can be an issue. Trying to communicate those to your client without scaring them, without getting them overwhelmed with the hypothetical, which might not happen, but also forcing them to be realistic and to think beyond the moment where you sign this deal and you have to go forward with whatever you've agreed to buy, agreed to sell, or agree to invest in.
And now, so it's been fun. So like I said, I discerned slowly. So I think I'm about a year in, so I have to choose a practice group. So, that's coming in the next few weeks. So, it's not going to be a litigation group. It's most likely going to be... it's going to be a transactional group. So, that's a long winded answer, but I hope I described a little bit about my encounter with learning about the other side of law.
Maura: Well, and it seems like discernment has been something that you've really carried from Holy Cross because you didn't jump into a lot right away. And you did take a step and you taught for a few years. So talk to me a little bit about that decision to really take another step before jumping in.
Jim: Right. Well, I couldn't have told you I started... I graduated in 13. My last day of school at Holy Cross was... Graduation was probably around May 20th and then September 1st, I was the teacher. I think I got a haircut, bought a tie and all of a sudden I was Mr. Cavanagh, teaching a class of seventh and eighth graders. And it was quite a transition.
And I don't think I could have told you in January of 2013 that I would be... if you told me I was teaching the next year, I would have said really? I don't think that's going to happen. So, even though I did say discern slowly that certainly happened quickly, looking back at the grand scheme of my life and just to tell you how it happened. So, I always knew I wanted to go law school. I think even though in the last few years, I think my career is going to be very different than what I imagined it would be just from growing up in our family. And our dad was a litigator and he always had... I always loved talking to him about his job and different things about his cases and I thought it was very appealing and it was just very appealing to me.
So, I always wanted to go, but I just knew I wasn't ready. It was always, even as a senior in college, I thought, I want to do that, but I just knew I didn't want to go right away. And I remember, I had really had no idea what I wanted to do. I think I had applied to some Fulbright scholarship, a Fulbright scholarship with Tony Cashman had helped me apply and so I was waiting on that, but I didn't really know what else. And I remember studying for finals in December. December, 2012 the first semester of my senior year, and there was an email that got shot out from the career services office and it was for internships at a prep schools and it didn't apply to me. It was a applied to rising juniors, rising seniors where you could intern at a summer camp, I forget the... Some New England prep schools and I thought just, I went to an all boy Catholic school and Rhode Island and it was big.
It was about a thousand boys. Some of my brothers had gone to a prep school and I just knew that it's a very small community. They all had very good experiences and played sports. And I also just was familiar with the model where you know, the teachers, they teach in their small classroom size and then your teachers are also your coaches. And the teachers are really a part of the community, especially at those schools. And I don't know, just an image of me teaching and then coaching, like hockey. I liked, I didn't play hockey here, but I love hockey and I just thought, wow, wouldn't that be a lot of fun? But I kind of dismissed it thinking I couldn't do that. I've never thought of doing that. And then I was home, it was around Christmas and my sister and I, not Mary or our sister Carol, who's also a lawyer. She started to cross examine me about what I was going to do.
Maura: That's what the holidays are good for.
Jim: Right. Exactly. What are you going to do? You're a senior, the clocks ticking. Do you have a plan? And I don't know. Well I just didn't want to say, I didn't have anything. I said, well, I've thought about teaching. And she said, Oh wow. And she said, where? I was like, maybe a prep school, I don't know, just from that one thought. And she put me in touch with a guy who was an alum here. He's works at CM now, guy Mike Schell. And he's just a wonderful guy. And he was a student here and had done the same thing, went right to teaching in a prep school. And so I had the long break and he was a friend of my sisters. So I gave him a call and just talked to him about what I was interested in.
I said, I really haven't thought about this much, but it excites me. The idea of teaching. I think it'd be fun. And I know it would be challenging and everything. And he said no. And I think he identified with what I was feeling as a senior in college and he was my guy to applying to different prep schools around that might be open to hiring a kid right out of college. He wasn't an education major, no prior teaching experience. So I interviewed at some places, made it to the final rounds and nothing was happening. But then I got an email from him that his school where he taught was looking for a new religion teacher, at St Sebastian's. So I went and I interviewed and I met the headmaster Bill Burke, who's a wonderful guy and the assistant, who was a Holy Cross alum.
And I just spent a day at the school and right away fell in love with it and one of my good friends from college Luke Sullivan, went to St. Sebs and I knew he loved his high school and I immediately thought, wow, this is a place I could picture myself. And sure enough they thought they could picture me there too. So it was great. I had an offer and I had a job. Spring semester, senior year. So I started that and I know... so that's how I ended up there and that was just an incredible experience and I just loved every minute of being there and it was kind of funny. It was one of those things where a year, December, 2013 I was coaching the JV hockey team, I had taught a full day class, was at the rink and just having fun. I thought, this is funny. A year ago I pictured myself doing this and didn't think it... And really laughed at it. I'm actually here doing it. So, that was great.
Maura: It's sometimes hard to believe that work can also be fun.
Jim: Right?
Maura: Like I can get paid to do this.
Jim: And that was, I remember that too, right, being at hockey practice coaching a game. And I'm thinking, I guess I'm at work right now, which is pretty cool. And actually it's funny I mentioned to you, I did some work this morning and cool beans and a bunch of students I taught who were in seventh and eighth grade are actually now here as students. And I was hoping maybe I could scare one of them. Like, Hey, like I used to do or just see one of them. And so, yeah, it was a great experience.
Maura: Yeah, that's fantastic. I also read that you did an internship at the US attorney's office.
Jim: Yes.
Maura: Along your path of figuring out what you want to do. I'd love to hear a little bit about how that's informed your work.
Jim: Right? So it was after my first year of law school. After your first year of law school is interesting because it's really a year in the books. You're learning law and the abstract and like I mentioned this earlier, you really know very little about the practice of lot itself, but you've learned a lot of legal theory and about the substantive bodies of law. So, as a first year law student, they're not too many options to intern because no one's really willing to pay you to do anything. But it's a great opportunity to work for a government agency that might have unpaid internships and have a program where you can come in and they'll give you some assignments and you'll get to see a lot of action.
Maura: Right.
Jim: Because I mean US attorney's office is interesting experience because they're federal prosecutors, so they're in court all the time. So, I spent a lot of time that summer, just really, I mean, more so than the work I did, just sitting in court watching... I got to watch a full jury criminal jury trial. I got to watch sentencings, plea agreements and also did some research and stuff to help an attorney. I remember that was fun doing some research and an attorney was taking it with him to argue it for the judge. I hope it went well, but one thing, so I do something very different now, right? I'm in private practice, transactional work, but it's something to see the criminal justice system at work, is I think just something as a citizen, as a lawyer especially, is worth witnessing and knowing something about, because I mean so much, sadly, a lot of people... I think Mary spoke to it earlier when she said, we have an incredible legal system in the United States and so often, right?
We just take it for granted, especially if you're from here and having lived in a different part of the world with a different legal system. But a lot of people unfortunately, right, like one of the times they really realize that they are part of a society governed by laws is if they have an encounter with the criminal justice system. If they find themselves charged with something. And so just knowing how that works and kind of just, I think any, every lawyer has an obligation to know a little bit about it. And also seeing it... I also, you understand that it's, for the system to work well, it takes a good lawyers, both good judges, good prosecutors, good defendants and good law clerks who help the judge and do research for the judge. And I think just that summer broadened me to realize that this system has worked and it's working every day. There are a million cases before these judges, these judges are working hard, these lawyers are working hard.
And I think it really, if anything just as a first year law student just makes you more aware of how important the criminal justice system is, that the people in it do a good job, the people in it are committed and act ethically. And also too that, just as a lawyer, you should know something about this because you might, before you know it, now you're a lawyer, right? So someone years down the road, hopefully I think all the guys I met here, upstanding citizens, but if they found themselves in trouble. You might get a phone call, might be helpful to know a little bit something about it, but so it was a good experience.
Maura: That's fantastic. And how has the Holy Cross's mission influenced your life?
Jim: Right. The Holy Cross mission for me, like I said, discern slowly and I think if you show up on campus, you're 18 it's really your first time away from home. Even though home is only 45 minutes away in Rhode Island. And I think of, just in four years you've come a long way or you should. And I think certainly Holy Cross and I think Mary and Joe harped on this in their experiences that, you do mature quite a bit in college. Just, I mean, you're 18 when you arrive, you're 22 when you graduate. So I think, I do remember it just being here and I like to think that my awareness of being mission driven grew and the whole Jesuit philosophy to be, men and women for others. And the idea that you should always be mindful of the questions of who is God, who is God calling me to be, and who is God calling me to be for others. And I think just as I went through my time here, I became more and more aware of that and I took more advantage of the opportunities Holy Cross offered to discern what God is calling you to do.
I went on the spiritual exercises. Actually the winter of my senior year, it was right around the time this whole teaching decision happened. And I remember I'd actually just found out I didn't get my Fulbright and I really was out of... I didn't know what I was going to do. I knew I had this idea about teaching and I just remember going on the exercises and thinking, okay, this is the time for your discernment. And really the only thing I discerned was all you can do is just respond to whatever's happening in front of you to treat the people around you with love and try to do the next right thing. To try to give your full attention to the task in front of you because that's God's plan for you that day. The people and the circumstances, he places in front of you.
And I remember I read a book by a Jesuit, during my experience on that retreat and that was kind of... and my mom just gave it to me before I went and it was really, I think all for a purpose. And I remember so, so when I say, how's that affects how Holy Cross drives my mission. Now, it's interesting, right? Because again, this has been a big transition year for me. I just graduated from law school, I moved back to the East coast and I've been working across practice groups and with that it's been a little chaotic. At times you feel overwhelmed and it always comes back to, what does God want me to do in this circumstance with these people I'm dealing with? And I think a lot of it just stems from the academic experience here that you should do your work well. Right.
That we all have gifts. That part of being men, women for others is giving the best of yourself to task. So even if it's the most monotonous, tedious task on this deal that you're asked to do as a junior associate, you're called to do that to the best of your ability. And so right now I'd say it drives my mission because you want to serve others. But it also just made me really aware of the way you serve others is by serving who's in front of you. And I've found that just to keep your sanity in a chaotic year, practicing law and to find God in it, is you really have to stay in the moment and do your best with what you have in front of you.
Maura: Well and that probably ties in, you know my next question of this, is about your personal mission and I'm sure it's tied into that. So I guess, how have you taken that and really created your own mission?
Jim: Right. So right now, I think my mission is really just to become confident in what you're doing. And I remember showing up at Holy Cross and being a history major and really realizing I don't write well. And so much, I mean, this is, I think just an example of Holy Cross and how the professors were great, but they were honest and blunt and said, your writing's weak. You need to get better. And I remember it took so long to get better. It took draft after draft. And I remember taking different courses and visiting professors at office hours who were always willing to help. But I remember getting over the hump, and I'm not going to say I'm a great writer, but I'm going to say that I'm certainly a better writer than I was when I started here.
Mary: I guess your Civil Procedure professor thought you were pretty good.
Jim: A good part of it was multiple choice.
And I think, so right now, what drives me is getting better and gaining in competencies because I've learned that law is extremely complicated and it's a bit daunting when you realize there's so much I don't know. But the thing is you can just keep at it and as you grow in competencies, it gives you more opportunities to serve others. Right. Because I don't know where I'll end up in my career. I mean, Joe and Mary, they graduated from law school a few years before me, so I'm not exactly sure where everything's going. But that's certainly driving me right now. How can I be, utilize my gifts, develop them the most I can. So I can serve others the way God calls me to.
Maura: That's wonderful.
And think back to when you were a student and you've talked about it a little bit, you don't have to think back as far. What stands out to you about your experience on campus and how has it really prepared you for some of the challenges that you've faced?
Jim: Right. I mentioned it in my previous answer, but certainly I found as a history major, that you certainly had the opportunity to become a better student. You had the opportunity to really develop your critical thinking because of professors who cared, professors who pushed you and professors who are really passionate about what they taught. I can think of so many examples. I think of my first class I took with Stephanie Yuhl, it was my Montserrat class, I believe they still have the Montserrat program and I wasn't just a history major because Carol, I mean, because of Mary and Joe were, but I mean certainly that helped and I thought I would be interested, but I remember taking this class on World War II and Vietnam and thinking it would just be a military history class, but with professor Yuhl it was very different. It was really about the memory of those wars and how we as a society now choose to memorialize them and what narratives get told and whose narrative get told and who are the stakeholders.
And you realize that there just so many layers that complicate these issues. And it just really opened my eyes to what a complex world we have and the need to be aware of that and the need to be a voice in the conversation. So with that, it helps if you can analyze, it helps if you can critically think and it helps if you can write well. And so I think to my experience at Holy Cross, it was certainly one where I grew quite a bit and I remember after that experience in class thinking, wow, I think I want to be a history major and I chose to be a history major. And then I just taking other courses with Gwen Miller, with Father K and having these moments where you're looking at correspondence from members of Congress, looking at the writings of the Jesuits in their encounter with native Americans hundreds of years ago.
And you really get into the primary sources. And what was the experience of this person? What are they saying about it? And I just remember it was a neat experience to have your interest inflamed in so many... In an area of study. And I think that helps for anyone who's a student here and you go to law school because of lot of... Even if you took some time off... like I didn't take time or you did something different before going to law school, you have the muscle memory of what it takes to be a serious student, to be a critical thinker, to analyze a document, to analyze someone's writings and to write well. And I think, so certainly when I think back, especially after going to law school, I think those experiences at Holy Cross certainly prepared me.
Maura: Right. And even just the practice of learning someone else's perspective through that analysis must be so valuable.
Jim: Oh certainly. I'm not a litigator, but I mean, so much of the study of law is right? There are two sides of the case and there's a different way and you read two different briefs that are written about the same... Based off the same facts. They can try to tell such a different story. I think Joe and Mary can probably speak to that with more detail and with more experience than I can. So always being mindful of what is the other narrative? What narrative am I overlooking? And you see that too, just applying it and you can always apply that in whatever you're doing, in transactional work negotiations. What does the other side want out of this deal? Why would they care about this?
And when you do that and you have a sense of where someone else is coming from, it just makes for more beneficial dialogue. And then in a pragmatic sense, it's way better for your clients, way more efficient, if the lawyers aren't talking past each other. If you're really listening and appreciating and understanding that one issue that you might be raising is important to them and you might, based on your client's position, it doesn't really matter to you, it matters to them. So taking the time to dialogue with them and then it just gives you more credit going forward. When you have something you want to talk about. So, yeah, certainly very valuable.
Maura: Fantastic. And so this you've probably touched on also, about how your Holy Cross education influence the way that you practice law.
Jim: Right. I guess, one thing is to just be willing to put in the work to... It's tough, especially in law because you bill per hour and you're very busy and so it's important to learn efficiency, but it's also important to do your work well. Because that's serving your client... To really... You get a long complicated contract, really sitting down and analyzing it and digging in, getting into the weeds on things. I mean, it takes some judgment. You don't want to spin your tires too much on things. And that comes, I think with time, knowing what issues to look for, what things aren't important. But really I think Holy Cross really taught me from the get go.
As I started the path that led me to law school and I knew the practice of law, that you really just need a great attention to detail. That you really have to take pride in your work and do it well. Because it certainly becomes a habit and I can see, actually it's interesting, I feel like law school in a way is a moment, it's the culmination of you putting into practice all the skills you've learned as a student. Because in law school, especially the first year, you only have one exam, per class, per semester. There was no study guide or anything. So it was really on you to be organized, to make sure that you're listening, to make sure that you've developed critical thinking skills to be identify what's important in your course. And then, you put that, then you write an exam and hopefully you had the right skills.
And then law school prepares you for law because it's really that practice. It's really just the same practice that I started here at Holy Cross of having attention to detail. Putting in the work to analyze, to read, to think and if you've been doing that for a long time, you know that's how you have to do it. You have to put in the work, but also too, you're just better at it. So certainly, I think, that's how Holy Cross is carried into my practice of law. But you still got to do it. You still got to break a sweat always. But I learned that a long time ago, I think.
Maura: Yeah. Yeah. Oh good. What has been the most satisfying or rewarding moment for you in your work so far?
Jim: That's a good question. A recent experience actually and I think it's great because it touches on something that I learned here at Holy Cross and I credit Holy Cross are helping me have this experience. Like I said, I'm not going to be a litigator, but for about six months this year I did quite a bit of litigation work. And I remember on the first day I got to my office, there was this big stack of briefings on my desk and I had an email that I was being put on part of this case team in this massive lawsuit that had been going on for a long time. And my job was to help prepare for depositions. And depositions, right, are pretty much just having a witness testify outside of court where a lawyer, it's not in court, but lawyers go and one lawyer questions a witness and the other lawyer defends the witness and it helps you build a record of the case and just different facts and going forward.
And so I had prepared for the... Helped partners in my law firm and other associates prepare for these depositions. And a lot of that is grunt work. There's so many doc... These two major institutions are suing each other. So they're just a lot of documents. So you spend a lot of time reading documents, it's a lot of grunt work and you have to pull ones you think are relevant, things that will come up in this deposition. And I remember being just overwhelmed by the case when I first got there because it was very complicated matter and we were thinking, how will I ever understand this much less be ready to look at hundreds, maybe thousands of documents and be able to identify ones which could be problematic or worth asking a witness about. And I remember in June I went to New York with the partner in the deposition for this case.
And I remember he had asked me for the months leading up to it, just different questions about different documents that had come up in this case. And I would read them, analyze them and shoot them off in email and everything and I remember we were preparing for the deposition and we finally started the deposition and it was the first one I actually attended and it was just a neat moment for me because when I realized I was part of a team. I was part of this litigation team and I was there on the record at the deposition on behalf of a client and also too, I remembered this case was so complicated but the deposition lasted eight hours and this was a very important witness and I realized I knew everything about the case or there was a lot I still didn't know, but I knew so much that I was with it for the seven, eight hours we were there.
Every question, I knew why it mattered, I knew why we were asking it. And also it was rewarding... I helped prepare the outline, seeing documents that I was asked to look at a few weeks ago and I didn't even really, just because the partner is busy, I hadn't received much feedback, some questions, points I had raised come up in the questions. So it was a rewarding moment because I realized, wow, I think what I learned at Holy Cross and I talked about the excitement of being a history major and getting lost in the stacks at Dinand and you just learned the importance of being a learner and learning that if you think, and even though things are difficult, if you buckle down and read and try to learn, you will learn. And then when you do learn and you do put in the work that you can contribute and you can serve.
And so I felt, even though I don't want to be a litigator, that was a great moment for me. So, I'd say, just like I said, you got to break a sweat. Probably Holy Cross taught you that. I think I did that for six months, leading up to that deposition. I felt like a rewarding moment for me.
Maura: Yeah. Well, given what you know now, what advice do you have for someone who's interested in pursuing law?
Jim: Right. This is certainly, I think, I know you asked Joe and Mary this question, but certainly for me, being right out of law school, I think it's certain... I had to consider, I mean, I had the discern law school in more recent time than they did and I'd say, one I've been really blown away by just, like I said, especially going to my firm, all the different opportunities that are for lawyers. So, if you're a science person, there are opportunities for in law in life and health sciences, in intellectual property if you're interested. If you're, I mean, people were passionate about civil rights and passionate and about equality injustice. There are obviously major opportunities especially in public interest in government.
And so one, I'd say, don't think you're pigeonholing yourself by going to law school because there are a lot of different ways you can go. But also too, it is an incredible investment of time, energy, and also money too. So, law school can be very expensive. I think it's very much worth it if you're going to be a serious student there and take the time to learn. And I think of how I grew in three years of law school. And so, I'd say certainly think about it, pray about it, discern it, but also too know, I'd say talk to as many lawyers as you can because there's so many different experiences and it's actually funny for me, because I realized when I showed up at law school, even though I had three siblings who were lawyers and a father whose lawyer, I knew so little about what law school would be like, but going through it and I thought that was really funny for a person who had always wanted to go, but I realized I was really happy that I went.
So that was my experience, but certainly I'd say take the time before you invest, but also know I'm an optimist and I'm a promoter of it, thinking there's a lot you can do with it.
Maura: Fantastic. Fantastic.
Well now to wrap things up, I have a series of speed round questions. Quick questions, quick answers. And for this I'll ask the question and then go around and hear everyone's answer. So are you ready to tackle it? Yeah. Okay.
What was your favorite dorm?
Joe: Lehy
Maura: Joe. Yep. Mary?
Mary: Mulledy
Jim: Hanselman.
Maura: Fantastic. Favorite meal on campus or favorite Cool Beans order, Joe?
Joe: Omelets, made to order with waffles at Kimball on weekend mornings only.
Maura: Mary?
Mary: Pizza from the pizza kitchen.
Maura: Fantastic. And Jim?
Jim: Chicken parm night, definitely.
Maura: Very nice. Very nice. Favorite class? Joe?
Joe: Contemporary Christian Morality with Father Linnane.
Maura: Mary?
Mary: Law and Human Rights in China with professor Karen Turner.
Maura: Fantastic. Jim?
Jim: Understanding Mary with Father Gavin.
Maura: Wonderful. Favorite professor, Joe?
Joe: Father Linnane. Father Kuzniewski.
Maura: Mary?
Mary: I guess. Professor Turner.
Maura: Great. Jim?
Jim: Professor Yuhl, she was great.
Maura: Favorite memory? Joe?
Joe: Winning the Mac Hockey Championship my senior year.
Maura: Not running down to Kimball and back?
Joe: No, I blocked that one out.
Maura: Great. Mary?
Mary: The last few nights before graduation at the heart center.
Maura: Jim?
Jim: I will say, senior year going to the Cape with my friends, with all my friends I had gotten to know over the last four years. It was incredible.
Maura: Great. And last question, best part about being a Holy Cross alum, Joe?
Joe: The pride you take in the whole spirit of the school and being able to say that you're a part of that.
Maura: Mary?
Mary: I think just knowing you are part of such an excellent tradition and excellent institution. Something that you always have with you.
Maura: Jim?
Jim: In a similar way, remembering where you came from and remembering the mission you were taught here and how even though you can stray from it and it might not always feel present to you that I think just being here for four years, just being... I appreciate being ingrained with, we're supposed to be men and women for others.
Maura: Fantastic. Wonderful and that's a wrap. Thank you.
That's our show. I hope you enjoyed hearing about just one of the many ways that Holy Cross alumni have been inspired by the mission to be men and women for and with others.
A special thanks to today's guests and everyone at Holy Cross who has contributed to making this podcast a reality.
If you or someone you know would like to be featured on this podcast, please send us an email at alumnicareers@holycross.edu. If you like what you hear, then please leave us a review.
This podcast is brought to you by the office of alumni relations at the college of the Holy Cross. You can subscribe for future episodes wherever you find your podcasts.
I'm your host, Maura Sweeney, and this is Mission-Driven. In the words of Saint Ignatius of Loyola, "now go forth and set the world on fire."
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