This episode was made in collaboration with our friends 'Conversations with Criminologists', an excellent podcast from the Criminology team at University College Cork. This episode was recorded at the 2019 North South Criminology Conference in Cork and includes a conversation between John Horgan and Shadd Maruna about their research in criminology and terrorism studies. In this discussion there is a conversation on how terrorism researchers can learn from the desistance literature in criminology.