“Real joy happens in a broken world.” What a phrase. It taps into the more Buddhist view of joy, which is much less binary than how I typically think of it. It is in that vein that my guest, Ciahnan (PhD and author), stated “joy” as his most important value. He explained this version of joy as something that allows you to see through the darkness, fear, and tension to truly understand yourself and genuinely connect with others.

This conversation started as it often does for me, trying to probe and in some ways challenge this idea of joy. It is not that I don’t see value in joy, but there is such much suffering in the world, that it makes it hard to buy into. I spent a good bit of the discussion trying to press Ciahnan to admit it might even be offensive to value joy when so many people are suffering.

I’ve had a lot of fantastic guests on this show, but I am still blown away by how he responded to this line of questioning. The way he expressed optimism and hope for humanity, while at the same time acknowledging some of the ugliness that does exist, was something special. In his earlier life Ciahnan was a minister, who worked in a hospital trauma unit. It was this firsthand experience with some of the worst human suffering you can imagine that made his perspective even more moving.

Part of my ego still likes to pretend I am a tough, stoic figure, but the truth is this conversation brought me to tears, multiple times. Going on the roller coaster we did to explore the good and the bad that exists in humanity really has an impact. And I think that is Ciahnan’s point, that we shouldn’t shy away from the darkness—it is very real—but if we truly hope to alleviate it in any way, we also need to fully embrace the joy that goes along with it.