In the Season Two premiere of Leadership Limbo, Josh and John return to the core reason this podcast exists: the often overlooked and overburdened role of the middle manager. Instead of starting the year with goals or resolutions, they examine a more urgent question facing organizations today—why middle management has become a major driver of disengagement, burnout, and organizational underperformance.

The conversation centers on a striking reality. While middle managers have the greatest influence on employee engagement, only a small percentage of them report being engaged themselves. This disconnect points to a systemic issue rather than individual failure. Managers are expected to execute strategy without shaping it, lead people without sufficient support, and drive engagement while carrying increasing pressure from all sides.

Josh and John challenge how organizations typically respond to engagement problems. Too often, companies bypass managers by adding new initiatives, surveys, or programs instead of investing in manager development. This approach compounds the problem by increasing workload and stress without strengthening leadership capacity.

They also explore why traditional management training falls short. Many programs focus on process and compliance while neglecting the identity shift required to move from individual contributor to people developer. Leadership, they argue, is less about passing along directives and more about cultivating trust, clarity, and growth.

The episode closes with a call for both personal responsibility and organizational reflection. Healthy workplaces are built when managers are developed, supported, and trusted to do the relational work leadership requires. This conversation sets the foundation for Season Two, which will move from diagnosing the problem to offering practical solutions.

Before setting new goals this year, pause and assess whether you—or the managers you support—are truly equipped for the role being asked of you. Reflect on clarity of expectations, access to development, and whether people leadership is being treated as a core responsibility or an afterthought. Start there before adding new initiatives.

In the last of our Season 1 Redux - the Best of 2025 - we are re-sharing an episode all about a Development System: The Development Square. 

We know that organizations who value development approach it systematically. It cannot be an idea, concept or belief by itself. It requires a paradigm and framework.

If you are going into 2026 with goals for greater success in people development, this is a must-listen.

Starting the week of January 12th, we'll be sharing out new episodes from Season 2!

Original Episode Description Below:

In this episode of Leadership Limbo, Josh and John dive deeper into their ongoing series on developing others, introducing a practical and powerful framework known as the Development Square from The Voice-Driven Leader by Jeremie Kubicek and Steve Cockram.

Building on last week’s conversation about mindset (“To Me” vs. “By Me”), this episode explores how leaders can translate self-awareness into actionable systems for developing people. The duo walk through the four stages of development—Foundation, Immersion, Empowerment, and Multiplication—and unpack how each represents a distinct phase of learning and growth.

Josh explains how the model builds on Maslow’s hierarchy of competence (from unconscious incompetence to unconscious competence) and helps leaders identify where each team member is on their learning journey. Together, they emphasize that development is not an event—it’s a continual process of awareness, feedback, and adaptation.

They also highlight the emotional side of development: the “pit of despair” when confidence collapses, and the “green room” where skill mastery can become comfort or complacency. Through humor, stories, and practical examples—from new teachers to medical dramas—Josh and John make the case that great leaders must not only recognize these stages but actively guide others through them.

Development isn’t management—and it isn’t an event.

Everyone learns differently.

The Four Stages of Development:

Foundation (Unconscious Incompetence): “I do, you watch.” Excitement is high, competence is low.

Immersion (Conscious Incompetence): “I do, you help.” Mistakes rise, confidence dips—learning begins.

Empowerment (Conscious Competence): “You do, I help.” Skill is growing, autonomy increases.

Multiplication (Unconscious Competence): “You do, I watch.” Mastery emerges—and it’s time to develop others.

Beware the “pit of despair.”

Don’t get stuck in the “green room.”

Your mindset still drives your method.

Think about one person you’re developing right now—a colleague, direct report, or team member.

Identify which stage of development they’re currently in: Foundation, Immersion, Empowerment, or Multiplication.

Ask yourself: What do they need from me at this stage?

More modeling and demonstration?

Shoulder-to-shoulder feedback?

Space to practice with support?

Stretch opportunities to mentor others?

Bonus reflection: Where are you in your own development journey—and what kind of support would help you grow next?

The Voice-Driven Leader — Jeremie Kubicek & Steve Cockram

The 100X Leader — Jeremie Kubicek & Steve Cockram

The Drama Triangle — Dr. Stephen Karpman

Sacred Hoops — Phil Jackson (with Hugh Delehanty)

Conscious Leadership: The 15 Commitments of Conscious Leadership — Jim Dethmer, Diana Chapman, & Kaley Warner Klemp

The Pit (TV Series) — referenced as an analogy for teaching and skill progression

To wrap up 2025, we're re-posting a few of our favorite episodes from this past year. This week's redux is Episode 9 - Communication: Are You Trying to Be Interested or Interesting?

As we spend time with family and friends during this holiday season, ask yourself, am I taking part in conversations in which I'm trying to be interesting or interested in others?

We hope you enjoy this "Top Hit" as we wrap up 2025!

And if you haven't done so yet, please Subscribe and Share our podcast with friends and family you might believe would enjoy and benefit from listening to our show.

In this episode, Josh and John take a second pass at one of leadership’s most defining skills — communication. Moving beyond what we say to how and why we say it, they explore the motives, tendencies, and patterns that shape our words and impact our teams. Through real examples and archetypes, they help listeners identify what drives their communication habits and how self-awareness transforms connection and clarity.

Motives and tendencies: Awareness doesn’t erase them, but it helps leaders recognize and redirect them.

Patterns and behavior: You can’t always change your wiring, but you can change your actions.

Communication archetypes: The visionary, the perfectionist, and the over-talker — and what they reveal about leadership motives.

Transmission and receiving: Great communication is both speaking and listening with intention.

Be interested, not interesting: Curiosity builds trust more than charisma ever will.

“Are you trying to be more interesting or more interested?”

“Your motives aren’t going anywhere — but your patterns can change.”

“You can’t delegate responsibility and still hold all the authority.”

“Communication equals transmission plus receiving.”

Take ten minutes this week to reflect — and write it down.

Name one behavior you notice in the way you communicate (talking over, holding back, over-explaining, etc.).

Ask yourself why: What’s the motive beneath it? What are you afraid of, avoiding, or trying to prove?

Get feedback: Ask one trusted colleague or friend to describe how they experience your communication.

Set an intention: Choose one way to practice being more interested than interesting in your next conversation.

To wrap up 2025, we're re-posting a few of our favorite episodes from this past year. This week's redux is Episode 3 - The "Rebrand" Episode when we moved from our earlier title (that shall go unnamed) to the current title, Leadership Limbo!

If you haven't listened to this episode it's a great way to ground in the purpose of our show and understand the vision for what we're aiming to do.

We hope you enjoy this "Top Hit" as we wrap up 2025!

And if you haven't done so yet, please Subscribe and Share our podcast with friends and family you might believe would enjoy and benefit from listening to our show.

In this episode of Leadership Limbo, John and Josh explore what it means to lead from the middle—especially when the word manager often carries a negative connotation. After sharing the backstory of the podcast’s rebrand (and a trademark dispute that nudged them into “Leadership Limbo”), they dive into how leaders can reclaim management as a powerful and positive form of leadership.

Drawing from Gallup’s First, Break All the Rules, they unpack the metaphor of the manager as a catalyst—someone who accelerates growth by connecting people’s talents to organizational goals. They challenge leaders to:

Reframe “manager” not as a lesser version of leadership, but as a distinct and powerful form of it. Too often, the term carries negative baggage, but John and Josh argue that great management is an active, catalytic force that turns vision into reality.

Prioritize knowing people’s strengths rather than over-focusing on weaknesses.

Distinguish between managing versus doing, resisting the urge to “just do it yourself” or create clones of your own style.

The conversation is both practical and reflective, with reminders that turnover is costly, management is active, and leaders must be intentional about setting their teams up to thrive.

The episode closes with a reflection challenge: Identify 2–3 people on your team, name their strengths without condition, and ask yourself whether their current work fully leverages those strengths in service of your organization’s goals.

Because in the end, being a manager isn’t about being stuck in limbo—it’s about catalyzing people and purpose.

You can find copies of First, Break All of the Rules here on Amazon or wherever else you purchase your books!

In this episode of Leadership Limbo, Josh and John introduce the Peace Index, a simple framework leaders can use to assess their overall health and leadership capacity. Rather than treating health as a personal side project or a physical fitness goal, the conversation reframes well-being as a foundational leadership skill that directly impacts clarity, presence, and sustainability.

The Peace Index invites leaders to pause and take a holistic snapshot of their current reality across five interconnected areas: place, provision, personal health, people, and purpose. Josh explains that leadership breakdowns often begin long before performance slips appear. Mental fog, emotional reactivity, and chronic stress are usually signals that one or more of these areas is out of alignment.

John adds that the value of the tool is not in perfection or scoring well, but in awareness. Leaders are often surprised by what rises to the surface when they slow down long enough to notice their environment, relationships, financial stressors, physical habits, and sense of meaning. The inventory becomes a mirror that helps leaders identify where peace is present and where strain has quietly accumulated.

The conversation also explores how leadership culture often minimizes mental and emotional health, encouraging leaders to push through discomfort rather than address root causes. Josh and John challenge that norm, offering a different approach: start small, respond intentionally, and restore order where you have the most control. Sustainable leadership is not built through constant optimization, but through simple, repeatable practices that create stability over time.

The episode closes by reinforcing a core idea of Leadership Limbo: leaders who tend to their own health lead with greater calm, empathy, and effectiveness. When leaders are grounded and aligned, they create healthier systems, stronger relationships, and teams that thrive rather than burn out.

Leadership health is holistic, not just physical. A leader’s environment, relationships, resources, and sense of purpose shape how they show up just as much as sleep or exercise.

The Peace Index works best as a routine. Its power comes from being revisited regularly, not from a single moment of reflection.

Place matters more than most leaders admit. Physical spaces, digital clutter, and environmental chaos can quietly drain energy and focus.

Provision affects peace. Financial stress or scarcity thinking often spills into decision-making, relationships, and leadership posture.

Personal health is about progress, not perfection. Small, consistent habits matter more than ideal routines that never happen.

People are central to leadership health. Disconnection, unresolved tension, or lack of community reduces capacity and resilience.

Purpose takes the longest to address but has the deepest impact. When meaning feels misaligned, leaders feel it everywhere.

Mental health is a whole-system signal. Feeling mentally “off” is often a cue that one or more life categories needs attention.

Set aside five minutes this week to walk yourself through the Peace Index. Reflect honestly on your place, provision, personal health, people, and purpose. Notice which area feels most strained right now. Choose one small, concrete action that would restore a sense of peace or order in that area. The goal is not to fix everything, but to take one step that increases clarity and capacity.

GiANT Worldwide Peace Index Framework (You can read more in here in a previous blog Josh wrote about this and see the image of the tool itself)

In this episode of Leadership Limbo, Josh and John shift from last week’s conversation about being developed as a leader into a new and equally essential theme: health as a leadership practice. Rather than focusing on personal goals, New Year’s resolutions, or exercise alone, they expand the idea of leadership health into a multidimensional reality. Health includes your physical state, but it also encompasses mental clarity, spiritual grounding, emotional balance, and communal connection.

The hosts explore how leaders often think of health as something to “get to later,” somewhere after the deadlines, decision-making, or team management. But leadership does not pause so you can get healthy. Health is the basis from which leadership decisions, influence, connection, and clarity flow. When you are not healthy, you are more reactive, more stressed, more scattered, and less able to show up with the calm, grounded presence your team needs.

Josh and John walk through why health matters both for the leader and for the team. Health is not only about self-preservation. When you are at your best, you are more attuned to the people you lead, better able to sense their stress, notice their energy, and create conditions where collective performance feels sustainable rather than depleting. A healthy leader models integration rather than martyrdom, and this subtle modeling creates permission and clarity for others to pursue healthy, integrated habits as well.

They also unpack why leaders often neglect health, not intentionally but accidentally. Busyness, pressure, and habit shape our daily operating system, and when life gets chaotic we default to whatever has been baked into our history: overwork, proving ourselves, numbing distractions, and performance behaviors that feel urgent in the moment but quietly erode long-term well-being. The episode explores how industries, expectations, ego, and culture normalize unhealthy rhythms and turn exhaustion into a badge of honor.

The conversation ends with a clear worldview: leadership is relational, and health is relational. When leaders are at their best, they can perceive what their teams need, stay grounded in complexity, and create conditions where people thrive rather than survive. The episode sets up next week’s conversation, which will focus entirely on practical strategies, healthy rhythms, and crowd-sourced examples from listeners.

Health is multidimensional. Leadership requires more than physical stamina. It requires curiosity, spiritual grounding, mental clarity, communal belonging, and the emotional steadiness that makes space for others.

A leader’s health creates a ripple effect. When you are grounded, clear, attuned, and integrated, your team feels safer, more focused, and more confident. When you are depleted or reactive, your team absorbs more than you realize and begins compensating for you, resenting you, or disorganizing around you.

Most leaders neglect health accidentally. When pressure mounts, we revert to old habits: over-functioning, proving, staying late, numbing, hustling for worth, taking on too much, or confusing urgency for leadership. These patterns feel productive in the moment but undermine presence, clarity, and relational trust.

Healthy leadership is integrative, not comparative. It is not about being healthier than everyone else or earning a wellness score. It is about aligning your personal practices, relationships, and rhythms so that leadership feels sustainable rather than sacrificial.

Work-life balance is often the wrong frame. Integration—connecting your identity, well-being, work, purpose, and relationships—is a healthier lens than trying to keep them separate or competing.

Reflect on one question this week: What is the single biggest barrier to becoming the healthiest version of yourself as a leader? Share it with the show so Josh and John can surface real examples from listeners and address them directly in next week’s episode.

You are also invited to share one strategy you currently use that genuinely supports your health and positively affects your team. These practices will be highlighted in the next conversation, creating a community-driven library of ideas.

Brené Brown — Dare to Lead (particularly the framework on armored vs. daring leadership)

In this episode of Leadership Limbo, Josh and John turn the conversation inward. After several weeks focused on how to develop others, they explore the other side of the equation—how to be developed. Whether you’re a middle manager, senior leader, or individual contributor, your willingness to be coached, challenged, and stretched is the foundation of your growth.

The hosts unpack what it looks like to approach development with openness rather than defensiveness, curiosity rather than cynicism. They revisit the pursuer–distancer dynamic from previous episodes, this time flipping the lens: instead of chasing reluctant team members, how can you stop distancing yourself from the people trying to help you grow?

The conversation dives into the role of ego, exploring how skepticism (“they don’t understand my work”) and excuses (“my boss doesn’t develop me”) often mask insecurity or fear. Josh and John walk through ways to reframe these stories, run small mindset experiments, and re-engage in genuine learning.

They also emphasize humble curiosity—not asking questions to prove a point, but asking to discover something new. Alongside this mindset, they talk about the importance of advocating for what you need and building a collaborative relationship with your manager.

The episode closes with a seasonal reminder about gratitude—both expressing and receiving it—as one of the most powerful yet underused tools for sustaining healthy development relationships.

Reflect on your posture toward being developed.

In this follow-up to last week’s discussion on the Development Square, Josh and John explore what happens after you’ve identified where someone is on their growth journey. Once you know where a team member stands—whether they’re in the foundation, immersion, empowerment, or multiplication stage—the next step is figuring out how to coach, teach, and lead them toward mastery.

The hosts dig into two essential relationship dynamics that can either fuel or frustrate development:

Drawing from David Brooks’ book How to Know a Person, they discuss what it means to practice accompaniment—walking alongside someone rather than solving problems for them. They pair this with practical frameworks from The Coaching Habit (Michael Bungay Stanier) and Humble Inquiry (Edgar Schein), showing how asking the right questions can rebalance responsibility and deepen learning.

The episode then transitions into “gradual release”—a core concept in education that applies powerfully to leadership. Josh and John break down each stage of the model (“I do, you watch” → “I do, you help” → “You do, I help” → “You do, I watch”), explaining how leaders can adjust their coaching, feedback, and proximity as people grow in competence and confidence. Along the way, they tackle the tension between personalizing learning and maintaining accountability, and remind listeners that development requires both structure and stretch.

Return to the team member you identified last week in the Development Square exercise. Ask yourself:

Identify one way to rebalance your dynamic this week—whether it’s using a coaching question, creating clearer criteria for success, or scheduling a real-time feedback moment.

In this episode of Leadership Limbo, Josh and John dive deeper into their ongoing series on developing others, introducing a practical and powerful framework known as the Development Square from The Voice-Driven Leader by Jeremie Kubicek and Steve Cockram.

Building on last week’s conversation about mindset (“To Me” vs. “By Me”), this episode explores how leaders can translate self-awareness into actionable systems for developing people. The duo walk through the four stages of development—Foundation, Immersion, Empowerment, and Multiplication—and unpack how each represents a distinct phase of learning and growth.

Josh explains how the model builds on Maslow’s hierarchy of competence (from unconscious incompetence to unconscious competence) and helps leaders identify where each team member is on their learning journey. Together, they emphasize that development is not an event—it’s a continual process of awareness, feedback, and adaptation.

They also highlight the emotional side of development: the “pit of despair” when confidence collapses, and the “green room” where skill mastery can become comfort or complacency. Through humor, stories, and practical examples—from new teachers to medical dramas—Josh and John make the case that great leaders must not only recognize these stages but actively guide others through them.

Development isn’t management—and it isn’t an event.

Everyone learns differently.

The Four Stages of Development:

Foundation (Unconscious Incompetence): “I do, you watch.” Excitement is high, competence is low.

Immersion (Conscious Incompetence): “I do, you help.” Mistakes rise, confidence dips—learning begins.

Empowerment (Conscious Competence): “You do, I help.” Skill is growing, autonomy increases.

Multiplication (Unconscious Competence): “You do, I watch.” Mastery emerges—and it’s time to develop others.

Beware the “pit of despair.”

Don’t get stuck in the “green room.”

Your mindset still drives your method.

Think about one person you’re developing right now—a colleague, direct report, or team member.

Identify which stage of development they’re currently in: Foundation, Immersion, Empowerment, or Multiplication.

Ask yourself: What do they need from me at this stage?

More modeling and demonstration?

Shoulder-to-shoulder feedback?

Space to practice with support?

Stretch opportunities to mentor others?

Bonus reflection: Where are you in your own development journey—and what kind of support would help you grow next?

The Voice-Driven Leader — Jeremie Kubicek & Steve Cockram

The 100X Leader — Jeremie Kubicek & Steve Cockram

The Drama Triangle — Dr. Stephen Karpman

Sacred Hoops — Phil Jackson (with Hugh Delehanty)

Conscious Leadership: The 15 Commitments of Conscious Leadership — Jim Dethmer, Diana Chapman, & Kaley Warner Klemp

The Pit (TV Series) — referenced as an analogy for teaching and skill progression

In this episode of Leadership Limbo, Josh and John continue their mini-series on developing others, widening the lens to explore the deeper mindsets that shape how leaders respond to challenges. Drawing from the model in Conscious Leadership, they unpack the four mindsets—To Me, By Me, Through Me, and As Me—and examine how each one influences the way we navigate difficulty, communicate, and develop the people around us.

The conversation explores how easy it is for leaders to slip into a reactive To Me posture, especially in seasons of uncertainty or self-preservation. From there, they highlight how shifting toward By Me opens the door to agency, responsibility, and creativity—breaking the cycle of blame or helplessness.

Josh and John also reflect on higher levels of leadership consciousness—operating Through Me or As Me—and what it means to move from control to presence, from tension to groundedness, and from reactivity to intentionality. They share personal stories, real-life examples, and moments of self-awareness that reveal the subtle but powerful nature of mindset shifts.

The episode ultimately reminds leaders that developing others begins with developing ourselves. How we interpret our circumstances shapes how we show up, how we listen, and how we build capacity in the people we influence.

Most leaders operate in “To Me” more than they realize.

Shifting to “By Me” unlocks creativity and ownership.

“Through Me” and “As Me” represent deeper, grounded presence.

Self-preservation keeps leaders from developing others.

Small, consistent reframes create meaningful change.

Identify one challenge you’re facing right now—something that feels heavy, unfair, frustrating, or stuck.

Write down the story you are currently telling yourself about it (the “To Me” version).

Then choose one small shift toward a “By Me” mindset.

What question could you ask?

What action is within your control?

What perspective could open up agency instead of helplessness?

Keep it small. Keep it honest. Keep it doable.

Conscious Leadership: The 15 Commitments of Conscious Leadership — Jim Dethmer, Diana Chapman, Kaley Warner Klemp

The Drama Triangle — Dr. Stephen Karpman

The 100X Leader — Jeremie Kubicek & Steve Cockram

Sacred Hoops — Phil Jackson (with Hugh Delehanty)

What About Bob? — Frank Oz (Director)