Learning and Teaching Systemic Therapy

By Society for the Teaching of Marriage and Family TherapyScience Social Sciences Education Courses

Learning and Teaching Systemic Therapy episodes

July 01Ep 18: Eco-systemic Therapy - Including Place and Nature in our Training and Practice
Today, I welcome Catherine Falco to discuss eco-relational and ecologically systemic practice, with particular attention to how educators and supervisors can prepare therapists to think beyond the individual and toward wider relational, environmental, and cultural systems.
Catherine Falco:
Cath is a psychologist and clinical family therapist. She has a Masters in Mental Health specialising in Family therapy and she is currently completing a research PhD at The University of Sydney where she is investigating ecological emotions and systems thinking with a focus on grassroots groups and community-based practices. She lives in northern New South Wales on Bundjalung Country where she and her family tend 12 acres of Eucalypt Forest nestled in the biodiverse bowl of the Tweed Caldera.
Reach out to Cath here:
[email protected]
@caldera_psychology

Resources discussed:
Falco, C. (2022), Integrative Practice for the Beginning Family Therapist: Bringing it Back to Basics. Australian and New Zealand Journal of Family Therapy, 43, 70-79. https://doi.org/10.1002/anzf.1484
Falco, C., Rhodes, P. and Dunk, J. (2025), Embracing Our More-Than-Human Family: Growing a Systemic Practice for Planetary Health and Multispecies Justice. Aust N Z J Fam Ther, 46: e70007. https://doi.org/10.1002/anzf.70007
Graham, M. 2023. “The Law of Obligation, Aboriginal Ethics: Australia Becoming, Australia Dreaming.” Parrhesia: A Journal of Critical Philosophy 37: 1–21.
https://parrhesiajournal.org/wp-content/uploads/2023/06/the-law-of-obligation-aboriginal-ethics-australia-becoming-australia-dreaming_mary-graham.pdf

Kimmerer, R. W. (2013). Braiding sweetgrass: Indigenous wisdom, scientific knowledge and the teachings of plants. Milkweed Editions. Purchase here (affiliate link): https://amzn.to/4beRhEr
Kimmerer, R. W. (2024). The serviceberry: Abundance and reciprocity in the natural world. Scribner. Purchase here (affiliate link): https://amzn.to/447xh2M
McGoldrick, M., Garcia Preto, N., & Carter, B. A. (2016). The expanding family life cycle: Individual, family, and social perspectives (5th ed.). Pearson. Purchase here (affiliate link): https://amzn.to/4wi2uMF
Moore, R. & Cove, J. (2024) Reconnecting systemic family therapy: How family therapy training can attend to the ecosystem and climate emergency, recommendations from a Delphi survey. Journal of Family Therapy, 46, 281–305. Available from: https://doi.org/10.1111/1467-6427.12461
Palmer, H., & Fortina Santin, C. (Eds.). (2025, December). Ecotherapy, environment, dystopian futures. Context, 202. Association for Family and Systemic Psychotherapy.

Questions we discussed in today's episode:
When introducing eco-relational practice to systemic therapists in training, what shifts do you think us educators need to make so students can move beyond an anthropocentric view of therapy and truly think systemically about humans in relationship with the living world?
How can we teach therapists to recognize and respond to ecological emotions, such as climate grief, ecological anxiety, and disaster-related distress, without treating them only as individual symptoms disconnected from broader relational and environmental systems?
For those teaching systemic therapy, what does it look like in practice to bring ecologically systemic ideas into supervision and classroom conversations, even when the training is not specifically focused on outdoor or nature-based therapy?
You mentioned the importance of Indigenous and First Peoples worldviews when discussing relationship with Place. How can educators responsibly bring these perspectives into therapist training in ways that are respectful and not tokenistic?
What invitations would you offer to supervisors and educators who want to help trainees develop a climate-informed perspective, especially in relation to their own senses, their relationship with place, and their awareness of larger systems such as colonization, patriarchy, and ecological disruption?
36 min
July 01Ep 17: On the Handbook of Online Systemic Therapy, Supervision, and Training
Purchase the online handbook of online systemic therapy, supervision and training here: https://link.springer.com/book/10.1007/978-3-031-92225-1
Today’s conversation focuses on the Handbook of Online Systemic Therapy, Supervision, and Training: Practice and Research, and on the evolving possibilities and challenges of systemic work in digital spaces. I’m delighted to be in conversation with the editors, Valeria Pomini and Maria Borcsa, whose volume brings together contemporary thinking on online systemic therapy, supervision, and training across a range of clinical and educational contexts.
Maria Borcsa, PhD, is Professor of Clinical Psychology at the University of Applied Sciences in Nordhausen (UASN), Germany, licensed psychological psychotherapist (CBT), family therapist, trainer and supervisor. She is founding member of the Institute of Social Medicine, Health Care Research and Rehabilitation Sciences at UASN, co-editor of the scientific journals “Systeme” (2001-2014), “Psychotherapie im Dialog” (2007-2019), member of the Editorial Board of the journals "Testing, Psychometrics, Methodology in Applied Psychology", “Contemporary Family Therapy”, advisory editor of “Family Process”, associate editor of “Encyclopedia of Couple and Family Therapy”, and founding editor of the EFTA Family Therapy Book Series. She has been board member of the Systemic Society (Systemische Gesellschaft), German Association for Systemic Research, Therapy, Supervision and Counseling (2005-2011); board member of the European Family Therapy Association (EFTA) (2007-2016), Chair of the Chamber of National Family Therapy Organizations of EFTA (2010-2013), and President of EFTA (2013-2016). Her research interests focus on qualitative methods in mental health and on globalized families. In 2019, she received an award from the European Family Therapy Association for her excellence in the research field of family therapy and systemic practice.
Email Maria here: [email protected]
Valeria Pomini, PhD
Valeria Pomini, PhD, is a Clinical Psychologist and Psychotherapist, trained in systemic family and couple psychotherapy at the Milan School of Family Therapy in the 80s. She lives and works in Greece, where she co-founded the Family Therapy Unit (1988) and of which was Scientific Coordinator (2009-2023) at the First Department of Psychiatry, National & Kapodistrian University of Athens. She is also the co-founder and co-director of the 4-year Training Course in Systemic Family and Couple Therapy (member of EFTA-TIC), established in 1992 at the University Mental Health, Neurosciences and Medical Precision Research Institute “Costas Stefanis” (UMHRI) in Athens. She has a wide experience as supervisor in public mental health institutions, since the last thirty years. Her research and clinical interests focus on the intersectionality of mental health problems and family relationships, with a special interest in early psychosis, substance abuse and other severe youth psychological disorders, couple therapy, and digital practices in mental health. She is member of the editorial committee of the Journal of Systemic Thinking & Psychotherapy and the Journal of Psychosocial Systems. She is founder member, board member and past-president (2004-2010) of the Hellenic Systemic Thinking and Family Therapy Association – HESTAFTA and co-chair of the Psychotherapy Committee of the Hellenic Psychological Association ELPSE.
Email Valeria here: [email protected]
Questions we discussed in this episode:
Your work on this book started before COVID. What were the biggest shifts you observed in systemic practice from the pre-COVID period to the post-COVID period, and what did the research outcomes suggest about those shifts? Overview of the book chapters/ contents/etc
The book is positioned for family therapists across Europe and beyond. What patterns did you notice in how MFTs use systemic therapy across different European contexts, and what do you most want readers outside Europe to understand about those differences? (e.g., Geographical differences)
You’ve noted changes in therapeutic relationships with teletherapy. In your view, what has fundamentally changed in the therapeutic relationship in systemic telehealth (e.g., alliance, engagement, power, privacy, family dynamics), and what has remained surprisingly stable?
You structured the book to address multiple levels: therapy, supervision, and training. What are the main topics in these three levels?
The book contents appear to move from theoretical concepts to competencies and then clinical practice. Several chapters get very concrete about what happens “in the room” online (e.g., therapeutic alliance, “joining” in the virtual office, “the virtual third,” and specific tools such as online games, metaphoric tools, and working with images). How would the book be useful for a post-graduate training program?
48 min
April 02Ep 16: Queer-contextualized Family Therapy - A conversation with the editors
In today’s episode, we discuss the book Queer-Contextualized Family Therapy: Toward Radically Inclusive Theory and Practice, and I’m joined by the book’s editors, Dr. Erica Hartwell and Dr. Lindsay Edwards.
Dr. Erica Hartwell is an Associate Professor of Marriage, Couple, and Family Therapy in the Lewis and Clark Graduate School of Education and Counseling. Her teaching, supervision, and scholarship is focused on creating community, compassion, and justice, with a focus on queer and trans mental health and well-being. In 2023, she received Fairfield University’s highest faculty honor, the Robert E. Wall award, in recognition of her forthcoming book, Queer-Contextualized Family Therapy: Toward Radical Theory and Practice. She served as the first chair of AAMFT’s Queer and Trans Advocacy Network and led the development of the Clinical Guidelines for LGBTQIA Affirming Marriage and Family Therapy. As an AAMFT Board Member, she worked on the Gender-Affirming Care Position Statement.
Dr. Edwards is a Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist and an AAMFT Approved Supervisor. She dedicated 11 years to academia, serving as faculty within several accredited couple and family therapy programs. During this time, she conducted research, published articles, and provided didactic instruction and clinical supervision to MFTs in training. Currently, Dr. Edwards serves as a manager for Colorado's Behavioral Health Administration, overseeing the Children and Youth Mental Health Treatment Act and other critical mental health initiatives. Beyond her administrative role, she specializes in LGBTQ+ inclusive family therapy and remains deeply committed to the field by providing private practice supervision and supervision mentorship.
Dr. Lindsay Edwards can be contacted through her website: https://www.drlindsayedwards.com/
Questions we discussed in this episode:
You frame queer-contextualizing as a beginning framework, not “the answer,” but a question for the field. Share with us what this framework looks like.
What are some questions you want clinicians, supervisors, and educators to keep asking as they apply this framework to any model (including models that may not be covered in the book)?
A key thread you wanted to highlight in this text is that it is not only about queerness, but about reenvisioning how our foundational models could be reimagined to tend to any marginalized identity/positioning.
When a clinician is working in a country or cultural context with a different dominant discourse, what are some “dominant assumptions” you recommend they identify and unpack?
The table of contents applies queer-contextualizing to multiple foundational approaches (Structural, Strategic, Satir, EFT, Bowen, Contextual, Gottman, SFBT, Collaborative).
Please share with us an example of how a queer-contextualizing framework changes case conceptualization and intervention planning from a Bowenian approach?
Please share with us an example of how a queer-contextualizing framework changes case conceptualization and intervention planning from a Satir approach?
Your editorial process itself sounds aligned with the book’s values: It started with an open call, intensive 1:1 work with authors, and inviting contributors to “say the wild thing” outside typical academic constraints. What did you learn from editing this way, and how do you hope it influences how we write, teach, and evaluate scholarship in our training programs?
Purchase the book here: https://www.routledge.com/Queer-Contextualized-Family-Therapy-Toward-Radically-Inclusive-Theory-and-Practice/Hartwell-Edwards/p/book/9781032311265
44 min
December 02, 2025Ep 15: Teaching Systemic Therapy: Integrative Approaches for Family Therapists with Dr. Leonie White
Dr Leonie White is a Clinical Family Therapist and Psychologist with almost 30 years’ experience. She works in private practice and as the Director of Phoenix Family Therapy Academy.
Leonie has spent more than a decade in AAFT-accredited family therapy training programs and has taught, trained, and supervised across multiple university programs. She brings a practical, integrative, and attachment and neuroscience-informed systemic lens to support both emerging and experienced practitioners with teaching that reflects a deep commitment to adult learning and experiential approaches.
Leonie offers a broad range of professional development initiatives across Australia and New Zealand, including foundational, advanced, trauma-informed, and systemic family therapy workshops. She also provides individual and group supervision, mentorship, and consultancy to mental health, education, and child protection professionals.
Leonie has presented at national and international conferences, including keynote addresses. She has contributed to the field through academic publications, as Guest Editor for a special issue of the Australian and New Zealand Journal of Family Therapy (ANZJFT) on integrative practice, and she is currently working on a special issue of the ANZJFT on teaching family therapy in Australia.
Find out more about Leonie and connect:
www.drleoniewhite.com
LinkedIn - https://www.linkedin.com/in/dr-leonie-white-9a915489/
Facebook - https://www.facebook.com/drleoniewhite
Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/drleoniewhite
YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/@drleoniewhite4202

Find out more about Phoenix Family Therapy Academy here
www.phoenixftacademy.com
https://www.youtube.com/@PhoenixFamilyTherapyAcadem-s9y
https://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=61566716197513
Questions we discussed in this episode:
In your training courses and certificate programs, you center a multi-positioned, integrative stance in systemic practice. Could you walk us through your approach and what teaching methods you use to train clinicians in it?
You offer industry-specific trauma-informed trainings, such as for maternity services, emergency departments and schools. What adjustments to language, pacing, and alliance building have proven most critical when translating systemic and trauma-informed principles into these specific contexts?
You have developed practical tools such as the Helping Families Thrive cards and strength cards. What design principles guided these resources, and how do you integrate them within sessions to shift talk from problems to resources without bypassing risk or trauma cues?
Other resources discussed by Dr. White:
ANZJFT special issue on Integrative Practice - free to read
https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/toc/14678438/2022/43/1

Glenn Larner's articles are available freely on ResearchGate
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/247831055_Integrative_Family_Therapy_With_Childhood_Chronic_Illness_An_Ethics_of_Practice

Roger Lowe's book on Amazon:
https://www.amazon.com/stores/Roger-D.-Lowe/author/B001KHDCMA?ref=sr_ntt_srch_lnk_1&qid=1763684043&sr=1-1&isDramIntegrated=true&shoppingPortalEnabled=true&ccs_id=de2aa50e-09dc-4535-a59b-a131241ea959
45 min
September 30, 2025Ep 14: The Facilitative Systemic Intervention Skills (FSIS) Measure: Research-informed Clinical Practice to Train Effective Therapists
Today on the podcast, we have Dr. Adam Jones from Texas Woman's University and his amazing Master's student, Madeline Schock.
Questions about the FSIS Rating Scale that we discussed today:
You helped develop the Facilitative Systemic Intervention Skills measure. Can you help us understand a little bit about why you developed the measure and what it is?
How you measure these systemic therapy skills? Can we briefly list the skills and discuss them?
The FSIS captures 8 distinct dimensions of systemic intervention skills. Can you walk us through how you identified these specific eight dimensions? How did you determine that effective family therapists were demonstrating these particular skills?
Are the skills intended to be viewed as a sequence, like a step-by-step guide to responding?
Your research suggests we can now measure and predict therapeutic effectiveness with specific behavioral indicators. How does this evidence-based approach challenge or support traditional MFT training methods? Are there traditions in our field - like live supervision or family-of-origin work - that you think we should reconsider?
You are training students to rate therapist responses and use the FSIS measures. Madeline, what is this training like? What has been your experience in working on this research while you’re also developing as a therapist? Have you noticed the research informing what you do in the therapy room?
How is your FSIS research changing how you teach family therapy techniques?
Talk to me about your collaborations with other universities to implement their own FSIS projects and research studies. How would faculty begin using this?
Looking ahead, how do you envision the FSIS and similar research tools transforming MFT education?
Interested in learning more about FSIS and getting trained to use it?
Check out this linktree for more information: https://linktr.ee/fsis8
Dr. Adam Jones bio:
Adam Jones, PhD LMFT-Associate is an assistant professor of Family Therapy at Texas Woman’s University. He enjoys working with students at TWU in research, teaching, and clinical training. His research looks at therapist skill development. He is a co-developer of the Facilitative Systemic Intervention Skills measure with Dr. Myrna Friedlander. He directs an awesome team of raters who rate therapist responses to challenging vignettes. He has a small private practice and provides therapy services at the TWU Stroke Center in Dallas Texas. He also likes to play the piano and the guitar, though he isn’t particularly good at either of them. He can be reached via email: [email protected]
Madeline Schock bio:
Madeline is a master’s student at Texas Woman's University, pursuing a degree in marriage and family therapy. During her time at TWU, she has completed clinical hours at the local school district’s Family Center, worked as a research assistant for two professors, and served as vice president of the Student Association of Marriage and Family Therapy. Her primary therapeutic approach is narrative therapy. She is particularly interested in working with neurodivergent children and adolescents, as well as families experiencing or adjusting to divorce. Her work with the FSIS task has significantly shaped her clinical development, and she hopes to continue growing as a therapist as she prepares for licensure and begins seeing clients as an LMFT-Associate.
She can be reached via email: [email protected]
46 min
September 01, 2025Ep 13: Integrating Systemic Therapy & Somatic Practice: Dr. Tequilla Hill on Therapist Self-Care, Creative Healing, and Teaching MFT
Today's guest is the amazing Dr. Tequilla Hill! She is a licensed systemic psychotherapist, seasoned somatic educator, healing artist, and mindful entrepreneur with over 20 years of experience in wellness and behavioral health. Grounded in systemic psychotherapy and somatic practices, she integrates talk therapy, meditation, breathwork, and somatic movement to support emotional healing, nervous system regulation, and relational restoration.
As a healing artist, Dr. Hill incorporates expressive arts, somatic movement, visual art, and writing into her clinical and educational work to deepen emotional expression and support embodied transformation. She is proud to come from a family of artists and creatives and feels honored to carry that legacy forward by weaving these elements into her therapeutic and teaching practice.
Rooted in compassion and presence, Dr. Hill walks alongside therapists and wellness seekers alike, guiding them toward practices that nurture sustainable self-care, emotional healing, and a grounded sense of well-being. She consults, teaches, and leads with intention, offering experiences that restore clarity and vitality. Her passion for well-being, movement, and emotional wellness also led her to center her doctoral dissertation on therapist self-care, a topic she continues to champion in her work today.
She holds a PhD and MS in Marriage and Family Therapy from Nova Southeastern University, a BA in Psychology from Florida Atlantic University, and an AA in Liberal Arts from Broward College. Dr. Hill is a sought-after therapist, wellness consultant, and mindfulness facilitator known for her integrative and compassionate approach.
In this episode, we will explore Dr. Hill’s experiences with self-care, sustainable practice, and the power of creative and embodied healing for both therapists and the families they serve.
Dr. Tequilla Hill's website: https://www.drtequilla.net/
Questions we discussed in this episode:
Your journey from experiencing burnout in community mental health to becoming a leader in integrative MFT training is fascinating. How did your personal discovery of yoga, meditation, and breathwork transform not just your own practice, but your vision for how we should be training marriage and family therapists? What made you realize these weren't just personal wellness tools, but critical for our clinical competency?
You integrate breathwork, nervous system regulation, and body awareness into family therapy training. Can you walk us through how a student learns to use their own somatic responses as clinical information?
You're in academic leadership, so you're in a unique position to influence how MFT educators think about embodied teaching and supervision. How do you model somatic awareness in faculty meetings, supervision, and program development? What does it look like when academic leadership operates from principles of nervous system regulation and mindful presence?
Traditional MFT training often prioritizes technique mastery and theoretical knowledge. When you introduce breathwork, meditation, and somatic interventions, do you encounter resistance from students or colleagues who see these as 'soft' or non-essential? How do you help people understand that these are rigorous skills, not just wellness add-ons?
Your work centers cultural humility and social justice. How does developing somatic awareness enhance a therapist's cultural responsiveness? Can you give us an example of how breathing techniques or body awareness might help a therapist navigate cultural differences or power dynamics in family therapy sessions?
In your role training supervisors, how do you teach them to use their own regulated nervous systems to help supervisees develop clinical skills? Can you describe what co-regulation looks like in MFT supervision, and how it differs from traditional cognitive-focused supervision approaches?
While your current MFT academic work takes place primarily online, your approach remains deeply embodied. How do you teach breathwork, somatic awareness, and physical presence through virtual platforms? What strategies have you discovered for maintaining the body-based aspects of training in our digital, often asynchronous, environments?
Huge thanks to our sponsor, SimCare AI, for supporting the Learning & Teaching Systemic Therapy podcast. SimCare AI creates lifelike AI clients so counseling and MFT students can practice full-length sessions, get instant feedback, and build competencies at scale, with cases that can align to your specific program rubrics and courses. Learn more or book a demo at SimCare AI. Instructor accounts are free. :)
45 min
July 30, 2025Ep 12: Experiential Learning in Systemic Therapy: An Australian Perspective with Dr. Kate Owen
Today's very special guest is Dr. Kate Owen!
Dr Kate Owen is a Clinical Psychologist and Clinical Family Therapist based in Australia. She runs a private practice supporting individuals, couples, and families, and provides clinical supervision to practitioners, and both government and non-government mental health and counselling teams.
With a passion for integrative systemic psychotherapy, Kate delivers professional development training across Australia, offering workshops on foundational and advanced family therapy skills, trauma-informed practice, and self-care for helping professionals. She consults to hospital and health districts to support the integration of systemic thinking and practice into public mental health services. Kate has presented at both national and international conferences and co-authored a publication on systemic integrative practice in the Australian and New Zealand Journal of Family Therapy.
She has previously run an accredited family therapy training company that supported professionals in gaining their qualifications as Clinical Family Therapists, and has taught in university settings. Kate is committed to supporting the next generation of clinicians through engaging, reflective, and practice-based learning.
In addition to her in-person work, she creates online courses and practical resources designed to help professionals deepen their skills and confidence in systemic and trauma-informed practice. She is the creator of the Keep Calm Cards, along with a range of other tools developed to support clinical application and reflective practice.
Dr. Kate Owen's website is:
www.drkateowen.com
Dr. Kate Owen's socials:
LinkedIn - https://www.linkedin.com/in/drkateowen/
Facebook - https://www.facebook.com/drkateowen
Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/drkateowen/
YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/@drkateowen
Some of Dr. Kate Owen's teaching ideas can be viewed here.
Questions we discussed in this episode:
Your workshop descriptions stress an experiential, interactive teaching style, making “complex theory easy to grasp”. I’d love for you to speak to any specific classroom modalities you rely on to achieve this. For example, do you use role-plays, video demonstrations, small-group exercises or live family therapy demonstrations, and how have these methods helped students link systemic theory to clinical practice in your courses?
Specifically, how do you use metaphors or stories in your workshops to deepen understanding? Could you give us an example?
In your clinical and supervisory work, you have emphasized that systemic therapy is “not about the number of people in the room” and outlined key principles (context, circular causality, systemic alliance) even when working one-on-one. How do you translate those principles into interactive learning?
In your Systemic Integrative Practice masterclass, you introduce a “meta-framework” to help clinicians adapt their interventions to each client’s unique context. How do you present this advanced concept to practitioners who already know the basic family therapy models? Do you use case studies, process mapping, or visual aids when teaching this framework, and how do you help your learners balance multiple models (systems, narrative, etc.) in a coherent way?
Your teaching integrates trauma-informed and neuroscience-informed approaches. For example, your Working Safely with Families & Trauma workshop weaves together sensorimotor, mindfulness, EFT, and attachment perspectives. How do you help learners make sense of this broad material?
I would love to know more about your systemic supervision groups. Specifically, with the shift to online training, how have you adapted your supervision approach, for example, using reflecting teams via Zoom?
You also run training and professional development for schools and those in the Education system. In your educator workshops, what kinds of hands-on resources or activities do you use to teach systemic ideas?
50 min
June 05, 2025Ep 11: The Power of Deliberate Practice in Training Therapists w/ Dr. Tony Rousmaniere, Rocky Allemandi and Olivia Ng
On the podcast today we have Dr. Tony Rousmaniere, Rocky Allemandi and Olivia Ng from Sentio University.
Resources for Deliberate Practice:
Sentio University Free Resources on DP: https://sentio.org/innovation
DP exercises from Sentio University: https://sentio.org/dpexercises
DP research articles: https://sentio.org/dpresearch
Sentio Youtube Channel Playlists: https://www.youtube.com/@sentiochannel/playlists
Published Books on Deliberate Practice in Various Therapy Modalities by the APA: https://www.apa.org/pubs/books/browse?query=title:D
Asynchronous course on Deliberate Practice: https://darylchowcourses.teachable.com/p/dpforbetterresults

Participant Bios:
Tony Rousmaniere, Psy.D. is the President of Sentio University, and the Executive Director of the Sentio Counseling Center. He is also Past-President of the psychotherapy division of the American Psychological Association, and the author of over 20 books on Deliberate Practice and psychotherapy training, including the book series The Essentials of Deliberate Practice (APA Books). In 2017 he published the widely cited article in The Atlantic Monthly, “What your therapist doesn’t know”. Dr. Rousmaniere supports the "open data" movement towards making clinical outcome data available to consumers, policy-makers, and researchers by publishing his clinical outcome data on his website. He is a licensed psychologist in California and Washington.
Rocky Allemandi, is a Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist in the state of California and a certified Deliberate Practice Supervisor through the International Deliberate Practice Society. He currently holds the position of Program Manager for Santa Cruz County Children’s Behavioral Health and serves as Adjunct Faculty in the Marriage and Family Therapy program at Sentio University. Rocky brings extensive experience within the public mental health system, having served in various capacities including clinician, clinical supervisor, and program manager. He is strongly committed to the advancement of high-quality mental health care and is dedicated to the training and professional development of emerging clinicians, with an emphasis on compassionate, accessible, and evidence-informed service delivery.
Olivia Ng is a 22-year-old graduate student at Sentio University. Born and raised in the Bay Area, she has spent the past five years living in Southern California. Her experience at Sentio has given her a deeper understanding of the global psychology community, and she feels honored to be part of it. Olivia earned her bachelor’s degree in psychology from Chapman University in May of last year. Prior to Sentio University’s official launch, she participated in a short internship with the institution. During that time, she was introduced to the concept of deliberate practice, which sparked her curiosity and made her realize what sets Sentio apart from other programs. At the conclusion of the internship, she was offered the opportunity to join Sentio as a student and enrolled immediately following her undergraduate studies.
In this episode, we explored questions about Deliberate Practice and how it can be integrated in MFT training programs. We also discussed Sentio University’s Clinic to Classroom or C2C method of teaching.
The C2C method brings real clinical work into our learning environment as therapists. How are live sessions, real cases, or practice elements integrated into your C2C curriculum, and how does this differ from traditional simulation or review of raw data in clinical supervision?
Studies suggest even short exposure to DP can significantly increase empathy and clinical competence. How would you describe your experiences with DP and C2C method to a student peer from another program? Have you noted/tracked any measurable changes in your skill application, confidence, or case outcomes?
What resistance or challenges have you encountered from instructors unfamiliar with performance-based supervision, and how do you support their transition? Could you share more about any challenges (or the learning curve) you faced when adopting DP methods?
Another common concern about DP is that some folks are concerned it could force trainees to adopt a specific style of therapy and turn trainees into "therapy robots". Have you heard this concern from students and/or clinician colleagues? What are your thoughts, observations and strategies in relation to this concern when teaching using DP?
Sentio’s Deliberate Practice Exercise Library and Innovation Lab offer many resources like specific skill-building scenarios and practice videos. How can MFT educators leverage them across asynchronous online delivery formats? Is it possible to use DP in asynchronous online courses and how?
We are seeing rapid advances in AI-powered tools that can code therapy process data things like turn-taking, affect shifts, reflective statements at scale and with speed that was previously impossible (e.g. systems trained on session transcripts or audio).
How do you see these technologies advance or transform deliberate practice by offering real-time feedback, identifying specific skill gaps, or personalizing practice sequences to the individual learner?
48 min
April 06, 2025Ep 10: Training systemic therapists from a decolonial perspective: Dr. Ashley Hicks & Danielle Barcelo
In this episode of the Learning and Teaching Systemic Therapy Podcast, listeners are introduced to the amazing Dr. Ashley Hicks and Danielle Barcelo, a PhD candidate in MFT. Our discussion centers on decolonizing systemic therapy within our educational practices. Dr. Hicks provides us with wonderful examples of activities from her own MFT courses. She teaches with a focus on cultivating critical consciousness and examining biases in ourselves, as well as our foundational models. She also shares her strategies for navigating institutional constraints on curriculum, handling student resistance, and effectively using self-disclosure in therapy and education. We discuss creating community agreements, creating fertile ground for open discussions on race and identity, and advancing our own and our students' cultural humility in therapeutic practices.
Dr. Ashley Hicks' bio:
Ashley A. Hicks, PhD, IMFT-S is a licensed marriage and family therapist, AAMFT approved supervisor, researcher, consultant, speaker, and teacher. She is Clinical Associate Professor and Director of the OSU Couple and Family Therapy Clinic at The Ohio State University in Columbus, OH. Ashley is the founder of Our Lineage Our Legacy LLC and she offers trainings and presentations at the local, state, and national level to mental health providers, healthcare providers, clergy, community and government groups to address mental health concerns such as disordered eating, anti-Black racism, race-based stress, trauma informed and focused care. Ashley has worked in several clinical settings with diverse populations including racial/ethnic minorities, LGBTQ populations, homeless and those experiencing poverty. Her clinical practice and research focus primarily on the needs Black individuals and families including womxn and those struggling with body image and eating concerns.
Danielle Barcelo's bio:
Our PhD in MFT student guest we have with us today is Danielle Barcelo. She is a PhD Candidate at National University, a fully online COAMFTE-accredited program where she is getting her PhD in Marriage and Family Therapy with a specialization in Children and Adolescents. Danielle is completing her dissertation on High-Conflict Post-Divorced or Separated Co-Parents and their impact on children, adolescents, co-parents, and other systems. Danielle is a LMFT in Colorado, where she received her MA-MFT, as well as two post-master's certificates, one in Counseling Children and Adolescents, that prepares you to become a Play Therapist and another in Depth Psychotherapy. Danielle is also an AAMFT Approved Supervisor Candidate. She is a Latinx Group practice owner, therapist, and supervisor in Denver, Colorado, where she was born and raised. Danielle identifies as a Hispanic/Mexican American/Chicana and Native American female. Danielle has over 10 years in the field working primarily with underserved populations. Danielle is continuing to grow her practice and has 15 therapists in her practice, 2 supervisors, an office manager, and a health and wellness coach.
Questions we explored in this episode (sourced by Danielle Barcelo):
How do you personally decolonize MFT teaching in your own teaching? What are some examples on how you do that in your own teaching?
How do you appropriately self-disclose as the self/person-of-the-professor relating to decolonization of MFT teaching.
How do you handle when something at the institution level is “out of your hands/control” so to speak, when it comes to how colonization influences curriculum and structure of teaching MFT?
How do you partner with students on decolonization of MFT teaching?
What kind of community involvement is included in decolonization of MFT teaching?
How do you talk about white power and privilege, oppression, racism, bias, etc. in MFT teaching?
Resources by Dr. Ashley Hicks:
Alexander, M. (2020). The new Jim Crow: Mass incarceration in the age of colorblindness (10th anniversary ed.). The New Press.
Boyd-Franklin, N. (2006). Black families in therapy: Understanding the African American experience (2nd ed.). The Guilford Press.
Deliberate Practice in Systemic Therapy: https://www.apa.org/pubs/books/deliberate-practice-systemic-family-therapy
Location of Self: Opening Doors to Dialogue on Intersectionality in the Therapy Process: https://www.ackerman.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/12/Watts-Jones-Dee-Location_of_Self.pdf
Bringing Location into the therapy room (video): Dr. Thandiwe Dee Watts Jones https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FGIW8xANdCw
Sociocultural Attuned Therapy Article: Knudson-Martin C, McDowell T, Bermudez JM. From Knowing to Doing: Guidelines for Socioculturally Attuned Family Therapy. J Marital Fam Ther. 2019 Jan;45(1):47-60. doi: 10.1111/jmft.12299. Epub 2017 Nov 10. PMID: 29125887. https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/29125887/
40 min
March 22, 2025Ep 9: Teaching sex therapy, community care and centering intersecting identities - Dr. Anthony Pennant & MA Student Jazzy Bryant
Today we start our conversation from the premise that therapy is very political, as it has always been. The current legislation movement has affected so many vulnerable populations (anti-trans laws, erasure of LGBTQIA2S+ terms from government agencies and webpages, cancelation of grants supporting gender-expansive communities, prohibition of gender-affirming care for youth, state-specific abortion laws etc.).
In what ways are we staying well enough as educators to resist the harm?
How does our resistance show up in teaching sex therapy?
How do we begin uncomfortable and vulnerable conversations about these topics with our MFT students?
What is multi dynamic relational therapy and how will it impact the way sex therapy is taught?
How is this model taught in the classroom by Dr. Pennant and what did Jazzy get out of it as a student?
How is the practice and legacy of intersectionality different in the classroom vs. in community and advocacy spaces?
Dr. Pennant is an international speaker and expert in neurodiversity, LGBT+ relationships, and attachment and foster care, with a dedicated focus on research in systemic intervention. With a doctorate in Couple and Family Therapy from Antioch New England, Dr. Pennant has made significant contributions to the field, serving as a master trainer for supervisors through the American Association for Marriage and Family Therapy (AAMFT) and has published numerous scholarly works.
Dr. Anthony Pennant's The Colibri Center for Systemic Training: https://www.colibricentertraining.com/the-colibri-center
Based in Seattle, WA, Dr. Pennant operates a private practice where they provide therapeutic support and training, helping individuals and families navigate complex relational dynamics. Passionate about advocacy and education, Dr. Pennant engages audiences worldwide, sharing insights that promote understanding and inclusivity within diverse communities.
Resources recommended by Dr. Pennant:
Aponte, H. J., Powell, F. D., Brooks, S., Watson, M. F., Litzke, C., Lawless, J., & Johnson, E. (2009). Training the person of the therapist in an academic setting. Journal of Marital and Family Therapy, 35(4), 381–394. https://doi.org/10.1111/j.1752-0606.2009.00123.x
Lutz, L., & Irizarry, S. S. (2009). Reflections of two trainees: Person-of-the-Therapist Training for marriage and family therapists. Journal of Marital and Family Therapy, 35(4), 370–380. https://doi.org/10.1111/j.1752-0606.2009.00126.x
Pennant, A., & Shamoon, Z. (2022). Reflections on implementing the POTT program in a master’s clinical program. Australian and New Zealand Journal of Family Therapy, 43(2), 182–196.
Full-text (open-access) available: https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/anzf.1492
Pennant, A., & Shamoon, Z. (2023). Person of the therapist: An ethical training model. In L. Nice and C. Eppler (Eds.), Social Justice and Systemic Family Therapy Training. Springer.
The future MFT and current Master’s student we have on the podcast today is Jazzy Bryant (they/them). Jazzy is a Black and Indigenous nonbinary full spectrum birth worker and systems thinker who is currently working towards a Masters in Couples and Family therapy. Jazzy is passionate about holistic care and reproductive justice as a liberatory and community led framework. Like many intuitive caregivers, Jazzy has always been called to care for those around them. Early on they discovered the power of nourishing bonds and openhearted support in healing attachment, increasing resilience, and promoting self-determination. Jazzy honors and channels their ancestors as they continue to remember and decolonize authentic ways of being and caregiving.
Link to a talk Dr. Kimberlé Crenshaw did about the origins and meaning of intersectionality: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-DW4HLgYPlA.
55 min

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