Marcus Lawrence, a former Christian worship leader, shares his story of going from being a full-blown Christian who worked for a church and for Christian organizations, to becoming an optimistic nihilist who still wants to believe there is something out there that cares - because music and love. We talk about the Enneagram, nihilism, agnosticism, mysticism, and love that's too big for religion's boxes, and how if there is an afterlife to believe in, everybody's in, or else no thank you.

Intro/outro song:
"Foxes" by Climber, used with permission.
Listen to Climber music on Spotify: shorturl.at/ouxS2

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