Episode 26 - The Role of Learning and Development: Interview With Lorna Gamman, Head of L&D for Krispy Kreme UK

With over 15 years of L&D experience, Lorna Gamman comes with a wealth of experiences including her current role as head of L&D for Krispy Kreme. We ask, What is the role of learning and development? What is L&D strategy? Where does L&D strategy fall down? What does L&D need to do to overcome this? We also look at where Lorna's career is headed to next and her role in supporting SME's with her experiences.

You Can Read the Transcript of Our Interview Below:

Nathan Simmonds:

Welcome to Sticky Interviews. I'm Nathan Simmonds, senior leadership coach and trainer for MBM, Making Business Matter, the home of Sticky Learning. We are the provider of leadership development and soft skills training to the grocery and manufacturing industry. The idea of these interviews is to share great ideas, great concepts, and great ways these skills are being used to help you be the best version of you in the work that you do. Welcome to the show.

Nathan Simmonds:

Welcome to another Sticky Interview with me, Nathan Simmonds, senior leadership coach and trainer for MBM, Making Business Matter, the home of Sticky Learning. Idea with these interviews is help you be the best version of you. I feel like I rushed that, but that's because I'm really enthused, energized, and kind of really, really enjoying this conversation that's been happening before this recording and what we've had before. Today, I have the privilege of speaking to Lorna Gamman, the head of L&D from Krispy Kreme Doughnuts, which in itself is prestigious enough for such a large company that's been around for nearly 100 years now. Lorna will correct me on that in just a minute. She has a phenomenal history with just over 15 years of L&D skills, hands-on practical skills, and is through this current situation, transitioning from this environment to a new world, potentially HR consultancy, L&D consultancy. Taking all those wonderful experiences that she's got from these incredible people and these incredible spaces, and helping to package that, and giving it to new people that need that support in a different way. So it's an exciting venture that I've been having a conversation, an exciting new venture ahead of Lorna as she moves into this space. Welcome to Sticky Interviews, Lorna. Thank you for being here.

Lorna Gamman:

No worries. Thank you for having me.

The Role of Learning and Development

 

Nathan Simmonds:

Look, I want to dive in because I want people to hear as much of what's going on in your head. I love asking you questions because, and I say this with absolute love and respect, you've got a lot to say on these things. You bring an enthusiasm and energy with it that is infectious and I want you to share that with people. For me, the first question is always why do you do what you do?

Lorna Gamman:

Yeah. I think for me, I love people and enabling people to be the best version of themselves. I love the selfish part of knowing that I've had even a teeny, little part to play in that because I think gives you the best feeling. That might be a simple conversation that changes the way that somebody views something through to some longterm leadership development programs and coaching sessions. I think for me, a win's a win, no matter how big. So I think, for me, it's just enabling people to be the best version of themselves. If I can have a bit of a part to play in that, I just get a really big feeling and a great buzz from that.

Nathan Simmonds:

I don't think that's selfish. I think it's wonderful. I talk about what we give to people, and it's the law of contribution. It's about what you put in first of all. With L&D, and leadership development, and all those elements, it is about what we put in first. We know that as leaders, the point it falls down is when it's take, take, take when it's all about me, me, me. That most people, as they're moving into the L&D space or the service industry, it's kind of in personal development. It tends to be, "Okay. What can I give to this person? What can I give to them?" The idea is not to live through their successes. It is to enjoy their successes from the work and contribution that you've made to those individuals.

Lorna Gamman:

Yeah.

Nathan Simmonds:

It's a wonderful thing. Thank you for doing what you do.

Lorna Gamman:

I enjoy it, and therefore, it's not a major pain, is it, to do it. I think it's lovely, and I can probably still name people that I think I had a little bit of a hand in where they are now. I've also had some bits as a manager where I think, "God, if I had of carried on what I was doing, I would have had a part to play in where they are now." Thankfully, I've learned from those as we've gone along and learned in the moment in those. I think it's a lovely feeling to have when you can look at someone's career and go, "You know what? At that moment in time, I helped them." Because, certainly, I've got names of people where I look back and go, "Do you know what? Vicky Harris and Andy Cross, they were instrumental in helping me be who I am now." If I can be that name for somebody else, then it's great.

Nathan Simmonds:

One thing that I've said is words change worlds because I still remember things that were said to me in my first job when I was 15 for the right reasons, for the wrong reasons, but it's something that's been encoded into the fabric of my thinking and the way that I approach certain things. It's the same when you put those names out there. Vicky and Andy, I think it was you said. It's about what do they give to you. Okay. What is it I'm now saying to someone else? Potentially where are their words am I repeating to someone else and passing that down the lineage or what else am I including and what do I want that person to say in 20 years' time? Because I know my outer voice is going to become my inner voice as the aspiring leader. What do I want to come out of their month in 20 years' time that's going to help the next generation of leaders coming up behind them?

Lorna Gamman:

Absolutely.

Nathan Simmonds:

What do you think then the role of L&D is in development?

Lorna Gamman:

It's a difficult one because you positioned earlier on as we provide a service, but I think that I'd into that that if we can become the strategic consultant within the business, then you can be an amazing service provider. I think the risk that you always have is if you're perceived as just an internal service provider, you get a department shopping list of training, and you just go off and deliver that. Whereas for me, that role of L&D is to really challenge the business in terms of where they're going, where they want to be, and how L&D can help them get there as opposed to be the order taker. I think there's a real opportunity to start to ask the why and delve into that to make sure that you're going off the things that really make a difference.

Lorna Gamman:

Sometimes I might get random requests. You think, "Actually, if I went after A, we'd fix B, but if we go off to B, we won't touch A." So you have to challenge. So I think being a strategic consultant is what the role of L&D is. Whether that's an external consultant coming in or an in-house consultant, I think we need to play that part of questioning, and challenging, and really getting to root causes to understand what's driving the business and how we can really drive the development of our people to deliver against those business objectives.

Nathan Simmonds:

What happens then when you end up being that order taker as an L&D function?

Lorna Gamman:

It's really unfulfilling to start with. They'll be times where you have to pick your battles as well within L&D, and sometimes it's not a battle that's worth fighting at that point, but at the beginning, we said, "We want to see people being the best versions of themselves." If fundamentally you know that what you're doing as the order taker isn't enabling that, it's really unfulfilling. You want to add value. You want to see change. You want to see improvement. Actually, by just being the order taker, you may not get that sense of fulfillment. Then I guess that the outputs of that is that the business doesn't see the value that you're adding because it wouldn't have been what you would add if you had the choice.

Lorna Gamman:

Then almost your role comes into question because actually why are you here? Because I come up with the idea. You come in with a bit of a plan. My team thought it out. So what's the point? I've had many conversations in my time where I'm like a, "Really? Is that truly what you need? Let's talk about why. Let's talk about the learning platform. Let's talk about what you'd like to see at the other side of this. What are those measures of success?" When you get to all of that stuff, you can then go back to the beginning and go, "Is it really that? Or if we go after this..."

Lorna Gamman:

I've had conversations where I've said, "Can you just put a bit of trust in me? If it doesn't go right, I'll eat my hat. It's fine. I don't mind going back on much if I've got it wrong and putting my hands up, but can you just give me the freedom to explore this? And give it a go in an area. Either prove it or disprove it. Sometimes you have to pick those battles in that way instead of trying to convince somebody to allow you the space and the freedom, but I think definitely the thumbs down for it, side of it is that it's just unfulfilling because you can't see the value you're adding.

Nathan Simmonds:

The words that jumped out to me was that strategic consultant. Do you think people in organizations when they have the L&D function there as a go-to mechanism don't give it the credibility that it's actually due?

Lorna Gamman:

I think that there'll be a mixed bag out there. There'll be people that absolutely,