discussion between the host of "Garys Economics" and his first guest, economist Ha-Joon Chang. The conversation explores Chang's background and his motivations for studying economics, contrasting it with the mathematically focused and often detached nature of mainstream economics education he and the host experienced. They critique the neoclassical approach for its lack of real-world applicability and its failure to adequately address issues like inequality and economic crises. Furthermore, they examine how this dominant economic framework can hinder understanding and action regarding wealth distribution and social justice, drawing parallels to historical control of information. The discussion concludes with a shared optimism grounded in historical possibilities for societal change.