Michael Levin (🔗, 🔗, 🔗) is the director of the Allen Discovery Center at Tufts University, and Distinguished Professor of Biology and Vannevar Bush Chair, among several other roles. In this episode he talks with Michael and Dave about computing writ very large indeed, with topics ranging from the meaning of life and agency to the problems of computability theory to the ways Levin's TAME model - Technological Approach to Mind Everywhere (🔗) - envisions a reality full of adaptive machines made of adaptive parts adapting to each other with everything they've got.