So far, the Out-of-Order Podcast has focused on specific countries and the role they play in trying to stabilize, uphold, change, or transform the current international order. In the fifth episode, we take a different approach as we look at what role the military and hard power plays in shaping the international order. To discuss this and related issues, hosts Amy Studdart and Peter Sparding are joined by GMF Visiting Senior Fellow Shawn Turner and GMF Executive Vice President Derek Chollet.