Modern Mrs Darcy

Readers, today’s guest is living out a reality I know many in our audience have dreamed of: Jeff Wheeldon is on the path to bookstore ownership. As of this coming February 1st, he will be the proud owner of Brighton, Ontario’s Lighthouse Books. Jeff is thrilled about this new career path, but as an avid reader of science fiction and fantasy, he is feeling a little bit nervous about recommending titles in genres he doesn’t often reach for.

Jeff’s an involved member of his community and an active councilman in Brighton, where he lives with his librarian wife and two kids. Like many readers I’ve talked to, Jeff turned to comfort reading as a way to recover from burnout during the pandemic. Since then he’s been hesitant to dip his toes back into the kinds of literary fiction that, as he wrote in his submission, just doesn’t feel safe right now.

As Jeff wrote, “The world is hard.” He wants to read more broadly, but without making the world feel harder. But he also wants to be able to connect with readers who enter his bookstore about books that exist in a wide range of genres. He also wants to prioritize finding a few new right-for-him reads that might be categorized as literary, contemporary, or upmarket fiction. Can I recommend specific titles that will point him in the right direction? I sure hope so, and I have ideas for Jeff today.

We’d love to know your suggestions for Jeff, too: please share those titles by leaving a comment below.

Connect with Jeff at his website.

Whether you’re starting to think about end-of-year gifting or you’re shopping for the perfect gift for any occasion, we always think a reading journal makes a perfect selection. Our shop is full of a wide assortment of colors of our Leuchtturm 1917 custom ampersand journal, as well as my reading journals that are custom-created for readers of all ages. Our Modern Mrs. Darcy Book Club members save 10% off all shop orders. Find out more and see all of our accessories, books, and apparel at modernmrsdarcy.com/shop.

[00:00:00] JEFF WHEELDON: What I'm discovering is a new emerging subgenre of books about comfort. There's lots of cozy fantasy, cozy romance, cozy mysteries even. Even cozy horror is a new thing that's coming out now

ANNE BOGEL: Hey readers, I'm Anne Bogel, and this is What Should I Read Next?. Welcome to the show that's dedicated to answering the question that plagues every reader, what should I read next? We don't get bossy on this show. What we will do here is give you the information you need to choose your next read or reads. Every week we talk all things books and reading, and do a little literary matchmaking with one guest.

[00:00:42] Readers, whether you're starting to think about end-of-year gifting or you're shopping for the perfect gift for any occasion, we always think a reading journal makes a perfect selection. Our shop is full of a wide assortment of colors of our Leuchtturm 1917 custom ampersand journal, as well as my reading journals that are custom-created for readers of all ages. Pair a journal in one of our longtime favorite colors or one of our pretty new ones with your favorite bookish accessories, or grab a book recommendation of your own or one from our coming holiday gifting episode to bundle with a blank journal as a gift.

And in case you didn't know, one of the perks of being a member of our Modern Mrs. Darcy Book Club is 10% off all your shop orders. So if you're thinking about joining Book Club, do that first, then place your order to save 10%. Find out more and see all of our accessories, books, and apparel at modernmrsdarcy.com/shop. That's modernmrsdarcy.com/shop.

[00:01:41] Readers, today's guest is living out a reality I know many in our audience, including myself, have dreamed of, and some have even walked this road, or are doing so right now. Jeff Wheeldon is on the path to bookstore ownership. As of this coming February 1st, he will be the proud owner of Brighton, Ontario's Lighthouse Books. Jeff is thrilled about this new career path, but as an avid reader of science fiction and fantasy, he is feeling a little bit nervous about recommending titles in other genres, the ones he doesn't often reach for.

Jeff's an involved member of his community and an active councilman in Brighton, where he lives with his librarian wife and two kids. Like many readers I've talked to, Jeff turned to comfort reading as a way to recover from burnout during the pandemic, and since then he's been hesitant to dip his toes back into the kinds of literary fiction that, as he wrote in his submission, just doesn't feel safe right now.

[00:02:37] As Jeff wrote, "The world is hard." He wants to read more broadly, but without making the world feel harder. But he also wants to be able to connect with readers who enter his bookstore about books that exist in other popular genres, not just the science fiction and fantasy he feels so at home with.

He especially wants to prioritize finding a few new right-for-him reads that might be categorized as literary, contemporary, or upmarket fiction. Jeff is thinking there must be a way to expand his reading into these genres in a way that still feels comfortable. Can I recommend specific titles that will help him do so? I hope so, and I'm so excited to dig in and speak with Jeff today. I have ideas for his reading life, and I can't wait to hear more about his bookstore endeavor. I know it's not just me. Let's get to it.

Jeff, welcome to the show.

JEFF: Thank you so much for having me, Anne. I'm excited to be here.

ANNE: Oh, the pleasure is mine. I'm so excited to hear more about your reading life and your bookstore very shortly. Jeff, we love to start by giving our readers a glimpse of who our guests are. Would you tell us a little about yourself?

[00:03:41] JEFF: Sure. I live in Brighton, Ontario, which is right on Lake Ontario, about 90 minutes east of Toronto. I am happily married. I've got two kids who are voracious readers, 9 and 12. They give me lots of insight into what's happening in middle-grade readers and graphic novels these days, which I love.

I sit on municipal council in Brighton, and so I'm really engaged in the community and current policy issues and things like that. And I currently work as a realtor, although I am just in the process of purchasing the local new bookstore. It's called Lighthouse Books on Main Street.

ANNE: How exciting! You know what? We are going to talk about that, so I will just bite my tongue on the bookstore questions. But first, tell us more about what you're doing when you're not in the process of buying a bookstore, if you don't mind.

[00:04:30] JEFF: Sure. I sit on 10 different boards and committees through my municipal council work, and so I have a very busy schedule most days. And that might have to change when I'm running a bookstore. So I'm really engaged in a lot of what would otherwise really be volunteering work, connecting with local nonprofits and community groups.

But I also try to make sure that I play Dungeons & Dragons at least every week, although getting the gang together is the hardest part. That's the real final boss of D&D is the schedule. I like to paint miniatures. It's very grounding to have to do something really fine motor skills-y. And of course, I like to read.

ANNE: About that. Tell us about your reading life.

JEFF: Sure. I've always been a reader. Early in the pandemic... I was frankly burning out before the pandemic started, and so I had very severe burnout in the early pandemic to the point where I felt like I couldn't read at all anymore, especially if it was anything related to issues that were really triggers for me, something like climate change or something like current political issues.

[00:05:37] I would read one or two sentences, and then I would feel like I needed a nap. I really felt like I was losing my capacity to read almost entirely. And so I spent a couple years just kind of turtling, sitting on my back deck and watching the flowers in the garden and not reading. And through a lot of time and effort and work on myself, I managed to get back to a place where I could read a book again, but I really needed to ease into it. So I found myself really gravitating to rereads of my favorites and comfort reads, really low-stakes stories.

And it happens that my favorite genre anyway is fantasy, and I find that even though fantasy tends to be about the highest possible stakes, it's the end of the world, there's this epic showdown between good and evil, but it is so far removed from real life that I feel like I get to have the emotional rollercoaster, but it's still very low stakes for me. And so it can be quite comforting in that way.

[00:06:38] I also really like sci-fi. I find that sci-fi is really about giving you a new perspective on reality or on your life, changing something about the world and saying, "Well, what if the world was like this? How would we address this issue, or how would that change the way we interact with each other?" Or things like that, which is really helpful for then looking at the way things are and the way that I see the world and being like, "Oh, maybe my belief about that is wrong or arbitrary." So I really enjoy that, although I do find that sci-fi can be work in that regard because it's making you think differently about the world in a way that carries sometimes emotional or intellectual baggage.

Again, I like comfort reads, and I like broadening my perspective, and somewhere in between there is my comfort zone.

ANNE: Jeff, what brings you to the show right now?

[00:07:31] JEFF: Well, first of all, I started listening to your show because I knew that I was going to buy a bookstore, and I wanted to be able to answer this question for each and every one of my customers: "What should I read next?" I've started working in the shop already, just one day a week at this point, and I really, really love this part of being a bookstore owner is connecting with people from my community and learning enough about them to be able to know what book I have on the shelf that is just for them.

So I started listening to this podcast because I wanted to hear more people going through that process, and I wanted to develop my skill in that regard. But it also made me really acutely aware of how narrow my own tastes are. I have a shelf full of books that I want to read that are outside of my usual reading list, and I never get to that shelf because there's always a new book that is in my comfort zone that I can pick up.

[00:08:29] My wife is also a librarian, and so she brings books home from work for me all the time, and that's my usual TBR. And she's very good at knowing what I want to read next. My goal of expanding my palette so that I can really give good advice to my customers means that I need some help. I need a nudge to get me outside of that one narrow shelf of sci-fi and fantasy, although fantasy shelf is getting wider and wider these days. But I want to explore other genres. I want to get into more upmarket fiction and even literary works so that I can keep up with the prize shortlists and the book club reads and things like that, so that I can be a really good resource to all my customers.

ANNE: I love to hear it. This sounds incredible. Also, from the jump, I want to say how much I love encountering passionate readers in the bookstores I visit. Like, to know that someone knows what it's like to love not just a book, but a specific kind of book, even if that is not remotely the kind of book that I gravitate toward first or most often, still makes me feel known, seen, understood, and like I'm in good hands to be helped by that store. So I'm excited for you. I'm glad you're here today, and I'm really excited to talk about what branching out might look like.

[00:10:00] First, I'd love to hear a little more about the road you've been on in regards to the bookstore. So it sounds like you're purchasing an existing store. Tell me the story, Jeff.

JEFF: Sure. Brighton has two bookstores on Main Street. They're about five shops apart from each other. One is a new bookstore, and one is a used bookstore. And Lighthouse Books has been in Brighton for a long time. It's called Lighthouse Books because being a lakefront town, we do in fact have a lighthouse. People who are not from Brighton sometimes say, "Oh, is that a Christian bookstore?" Because there are a lot of Christian bookstores called Lighthouse Books. But ours is called that just because there's a lighthouse in town, and we've got half the things in town named after lighthouses.

But it's been there for a long time, and the current owners are just such absolutely lovely people. And they took over the store from the previous owners right around the same time we moved into town here, about a decade ago. One day I was chatting with Catherine, the current owner, and she was telling me the story about how she rescued this store. She had heard that the previous owners were going to close. They needed to retire, and they didn't have a buyer for the store. And Catherine, being a former teacher librarian herself, thought, "Well, maybe in my retirement, this is the way that I can contribute to our community. Rather than volunteering in a whole bunch of different places, maybe I'll spend my time at the bookstore."

[00:11:19] And it really has been volunteering for her. I don't know that they've ever made a lot of money from this bookstore. But when I think about the future of my community, especially as a counselor, I work on the strategic plan for the community and think about, well, if I imagine myself in Brighton in 2050, what does it look like? And trying to picture that without a bookstore just doesn't work. No, there has to be this bookstore here.

So I said to Catherine, "Well, if you ever find yourself in that position where you think the store might close, you let me know. We won't let this store close." And she must've written that down because that was a couple years ago. And this summer she gave me a call and said, "Hey, remember when you said that thing?" It's time.

ANNE: What happened next?

JEFF: Well, we talked about it, and we decided, yeah, we can't imagine not doing this. It's one of those opportunities. I really firmly believe that we build the future through our actions today. And so if I want a future where there's a bookstore on Main Street, and I have the ability to make that happen, then I have to do it. So it was a really easy decision to make.

[00:12:26] And of course, everybody we've talked to about it, it turns out that owning a bookstore is everybody's dream job. Of course, people also think that we sit around and read books all day, which is also definitely not the case.

ANNE: Oh, that was the laugh of recognition. So, now, gently please with what I'm about to say. But I mean, it is so many readers' romantic dream that, you know, just these sepia-tinted visions of a beverage and a book and sitting behind the coffee, where customers are browsing on their own and need no help. But disabuse us of our romanticized notions for a moment. What does getting ready to transfer ownership look like for you?

JEFF: Well, I mean, the main thing that I'm learning now is just the day-to-day running of the shop. I'll give you a rundown of what I did yesterday.

ANNE: Oh, yes, please.

JEFF: Because I was in for an afternoon shift yesterday. I came in, and Dan had already unpacked a whole bunch of boxes. Every day when I come in, there's a stack of about a dozen boxes of books on a chair somewhere next to the desk. And someone else had already opened them and checked off to make sure that everything that was on the invoice is, in fact, in the box.

[00:13:35] And then I get to try and enter all of that into our computer database while helping customers who are buying books, and every time someone comes in, I pop up and say, "Hi, how can I help you? Are you looking for anything in particular?" And sometimes that person wants no help, and for the most part that's wonderful, and we just say, "Browse away, take as much time as you like. What a lovely place to be, in a bookstore." But sometimes they really do need something very specific, and so I find myself searching through our catalog, and no, we don't actually have it. We're a very small store. It's one room. It's quite narrow. And so we can't stock every single book.

ANNE: Do you have any idea how many titles?

JEFF: We usually have somewhere between 5,000 and 10,000, depending on time of year and how jammed in they are.

ANNE: Oh, that's a big room. Okay.

[00:14:20] JEFF: Well, it sounds bigger than it looks. So we can't always have everything that we want to have. So very often we end up just doing special orders, and that's probably the majority of our business, honestly, is people who know what they want, and either they're pre-ordering a title that is about to come out and everybody's excited about it, or they're looking for something maybe that's self-published and obscure, and I have to try and find out which of our publishers or suppliers can get that to us in the shortest amount of time.

And so most of what we do, I would say, is logistics. It's figuring out, how do we get that book into your hands? And at what profit margin can we manage to do that with? Some of our suppliers offer us better margins than others, and some of them have shipping costs and some of them don't, and all of those things go into more or less a database or spreadsheet, both on my computer and in my head as I try and find the best way to get the best book to the best person as quickly as possible.

[00:15:21] ANNE: So what I'm hearing in the reality check is breaking down boxes, data entry, split attention. Nobody wants to think about profit margins.

JEFF: Yeah, especially not with books. Thinking about profits in relation to books feels icky.

ANNE: Those don't go together.

JEFF: That's right.

ANNE: I mean, every bookseller who's ever talked about their bookstore has used the words razor-thin next to profit margins.

JEFF: But the other side of it is that when I am interrupted by a customer, it's almost always because we're having the most wonderful conversation that is so revealing about a person, which is the same kind of conversation that you have here every week. So your listeners will understand how great that is. I get to do that all day.

ANNE: Because when you're talking about a book, you're never just talking about a book.

JEFF: That's right, yeah. Yesterday somebody came in to talk about quantum physics because they were reading a book that touched on it, so much so that he needed to dig into his old math and calculus textbooks from college. And we ended up going on this very wide-ranging conversation that it also included dragons. So, you know, it's good times.

[00:16:29] ANNE: I'm glad to hear it. So it's a tough business, and there's a lot of grunt work, and also, it'll be yours on February 1st.

JEFF: Yes. I am so excited for that. We've started the transition already, you know, with me working there one day a week, and Catherine makes sure to introduce me to all of the best customers and say, "Oh, I want you to know, while we're both here, that this is what's happening so that you don't show up in February and I'm gone." She's not dying or moving away. She's just going to take it a little slower.

ANNE: What do you anticipate being your favorite parts of the job?

JEFF: Certainly the engagement, the reader advisory, or in the bookstore industry they call it hand-selling. But it's getting the right book into your hands.

ANNE: Oh, but you're married to a librarian, so reader advisory.

JEFF: Reader advisory is the library term. I really do enjoy that because that is the most relational aspect of it. You get to really know a person through what they love to read, and you find out something new about yourself in that conversation as well. So I really do love that part of it.

[00:17:32] My background before this was in higher education, and so I love talking about ideas, and I love the way that books open us up to all sorts of ideas. In that regard, this feels like it's very fulfilling. There are great aspects of just about any job, but I have felt like my day job for the last number of years has been as a realtor, and that has a lot of great points to it. Certainly gives me a loose schedule that lets me do all of the other municipal council-related stuff that I like to do, but it doesn't engage with ideas and stories in the same way.

ANNE: Jeff, hearing you speak with enthusiasm about putting the right book in the right reader's hands makes me think that that's an experience that is well-known to you, on the receiving end.

JEFF: On the receiving end, but also on the giving end. I've always been one to try and make recommendations to people.

ANNE: Oh, yeah?

[00:18:26] JEFF: Yeah. I love to recommend books that I love. And I've noticed as a parent now, my kids say this to me sometimes every day, because they read so many books. They're voracious. So they-

ANNE: You'd be really good at reader's advisory as a parent with a 9 or 12-year-old. They go through those things so fast.

JEFF: They do, but also they're doing the reader advisory. They're always saying, "Oh, Dad, I just finished this book. I think you'd really like it." "Oh yeah, buddy? Why do you think I would like that?" "Oh, well..." And they'll just get right into... And of course, they tell me the entire plot, which is not great reader advisory, but it does really tell me a lot about what they love and about what they think I love. So it's a good point of connection with another person. I love to see that reflected back to me through my kids.

ANNE: Okay. That's very exciting. Do you carry children's and adult titles at Lighthouse Books?

JEFF: We are a general bookstore, and so we've got everything. Things that I would never want to read myself and things that I know very well, and everything in between.

[00:19:26] ANNE: All right. Paint me a picture of what's on the shelves. I don't know how to ask this exact question, but what I'm wondering is, when I walk through the door, am I going to recognize a lot of titles? Are they going to be bestsellers? Are they g... how many are going to...

JEFF: Sure. When you walk in the front door, if you look to your right past the window displays, which are usually whatever is new and hot, we have a shelf that is all about current bestsellers and award finalists. And so we've got a shelf for the Giller Prize and a shelf for the Booker Prize, and we try and keep up with whatever is being longlisted and then shortlisted so that people who are coming in looking for the latest and greatest is going to see that there.

We also have a notable Canadian title section on that same shelf, making sure that we get those Canadian books that are doing really well and are critically acclaimed up there. We try and put books there also that highlight local authors. There are a number of big-name authors that I am learning all live in this region.

[00:20:30] ANNE: Oh, that were known to you but that detail wasn't known to you?

JEFF: That detail wasn't known to me.

ANNE: Oh, that's delightful.

JEFF: Sometimes Catherine will say, "Oh, well, we got to make sure that we put this one up near the front and faced outward, because if she walks in and doesn't see it on the shelf, we'll feel embarrassed," because we want to support our local authors, and we want to support these great Canadian voices.

ANNE: Well, you had me at the "If she walks in." That's so cool that that's a possibility.

JEFF: Absolutely. It's wonderful.

ANNE: Truly local to your community. Okay. How do you all decide what to carry? How will you decide what to carry? I think is actually what matters here.

JEFF: My podcast listening these days is overwhelmed by book podcasts. So I'm trying to keep up with what is new and interesting. But very often, how we decide what to carry is from our patrons themselves who say, "Hey, this book is coming out. I want to pre-order it," or, "My buddy just told me about this book. Can you get this in for me?" And then we take a look at it and say, "Yeah, absolutely. It'll be in for you next week, and I'm ordering two more for the store."

[00:21:34] ANNE: For all of our readers who wonder if it matters at all when you put in those pre-orders at local bookstores, this is a common story.

ANNE: Like, you influence the taste of your local booksellers when you do that.

JEFF: Absolutely. And then I just keep up with bestseller lists. And just because it's on a bestseller, just because Reese picks it for a book club or something like that, doesn't mean that it's going to be great for our store. And so knowing what's going to sell locally is not quite the same as just following what's on the bestseller lists. But we do try and keep both of those in tension.

ANNE: Okay. So this might feel a little unwieldy as a question, but if every bookstore has its own personality, how would you describe the personality of the Lighthouse Books you see yourself running?

[00:22:26] JEFF: Well, because we are such a small shop, and because Catherine is almost always there herself, it's difficult to distinguish between the store's personality and hers. Her warmth and her genuine interest in all of her customers is the personality of the shop, and I'm a little bit nervous to try and take that on. Those are big shoes to fill. But she's been talking me up to all of the customers to try and prepare them for that shift.

But I would say it's about discovery and connection because that reader advisory experience really is the heart of the shop. If someone comes in and they know exactly what they want, and they've maybe never shopped there before, then that's a quick transaction, and that's fine. We love that. But if someone comes in and they have an idea about something, but they're not quite sure, then maybe that's a half-hour-long transaction that makes our day. You know? That to me is the character of the store, and that's why I wanted to buy it. If it hadn't been like that, I wouldn't have bought it.

ANNE: I'm excited for you. How can I help?

[00:23:37] JEFF: I am somewhat stuck in my lane in sci-fi and fantasy, especially fantasy, and I'm stuck rereading my favorites. Now, being a fantasy reader, my favorites are a very long series. Rereading The Wheel of Time, it's a big project, you know? That's 14 books, each one over 800 pages. That might take me all year. And so if I'm doing that, then I'm not keeping up with what's new and interesting in the market these days. And I know Catherine, one of the things she tells people about retiring is that she will finally get to read books that she wants to read rather than ones she feels she should for the sake of the store.

So my challenge is that in the past when I have tried to expand outside of my comfort zone, I have come across so many books that are critically acclaimed, they're book club books, they're things people, everyone's talking about, and I'm sure they're absolutely wonderful, but I find that there's a tendency in a lot of books, maybe especially critically acclaimed ones, to have subject matter that is just so depressing to me.

[00:24:48] I remember probably the first upmarket fiction that I read was The Kite Runner, and I remember it being such a big deal. And I thought, "Oh, wow, this is so interesting. I'm learning about an era and a culture that are new to me." It was a phenomenal experience until I got to the horrific child abuse, and that's what I remember about that book.

I think about a book like, say, Room by Emma Donoghue, a phenomenal writer, or so I'm told, but gosh, I couldn't read that book. I know that even books that I really, really wanted to read, Ministry for the Future comes to mind, and it was too hard. I got halfway through, and I had to stop. And everyone told me, "Oh, it gets a lot more hopeful in the very next chapter." Well, too late, I'm done. So I want to be able to expand outward into all of the riches of the world of literature without killing myself in the process. You know what I mean?

[00:25:50] ANNE: I think I do. I'm very curious to hear what is on that shelf of branch-out books and also what your wife is bringing home from the library. But can we start with the books you love?

JEFF: Sure.

ANNE: Okay. I mean, I've been meaning to read The Wheel of Time for many years. Like, count me on it, Jeff. So you know how this works. You're going to tell me three books that you brought to the show today to talk about because you love them, also a book that wasn't right for you, although I appreciate the bonus couple you just gave me, and then maybe briefly what you've been reading lately as well. And then we'll see what kind of picture that pulls together. How did you choose these?

JEFF: Well, the first one was easy because it's easily the books I've read most. The Wheel of Time, I started reading that in the summer before grade seven. Hint.

ANNE: Wow. An ambitious youngster.

[00:26:44] JEFF: And I happened to have had a small injury that had my foot laid up, and so I read the first book of The Wheel of Time in just a few days, because I was sitting with my foot up. And loved it and dived in. And I think at that time there were only four books in that series available. So every time a new book would come out, I would start the series over again.

And there turned out to be 14 books, and so I have reread the first few books of that. I didn't reread the whole series every time a new book came out, but close. And so I've probably read the first half of The Wheel of Time maybe six or seven times. Again, this is a very large series, and so it takes a while. So it's easy to say, yeah, that's my comfort read.

[00:27:31] I do love epic fantasy. As I said, it really deals with values issues, which I love because thinking about values is important to me. I ended up doing two degrees in theology, so those kinds of questions of what is good and what is true and what is worth fighting for or maybe non-violence and versus violence, those kinds of questions I really love to explore in a context that is so far removed from real life that it's low stakes for me, even if it's end of the world for them.

One of my favorite recent reads was Monk and Robot by Becky Chambers. This is a duology. It's sci-fi, but it's solarpunk, which is a new subgenre that I really love because it's a hopeful kind of sci-fi rather than the dystopian cyberpunk. Solarpunk is about, well, what if we figured out how to reconnect to nature and have a more sustainable life in a future world? But in this world, the robots became sentient, and they all quit. They walked off into the wilderness, and nobody's seen them for 100 years or something.

[00:28:39] The main character is a tea monk in service of the god of small comforts, and their service to the community is to take their little cart out to a new town out in the forest somewhere and set up shop and just offer people tea and hear their worries. And it was very comforting to read a book about somebody who's entirely oriented around comforting others but then still having problems of their own. And then out in the wilderness, they stumble into a robot who has come back to check on the humans and make sure that they're okay and ask them, "What is it that you need?"

This has really opened up what I'm discovering is a new emerging subgenre of books about comfort. There's lots of cozy fantasy, cozy romance, cozy mysteries even. Even cozy horror is a new thing that's coming out now, where these cozy books are really about relationships and finding care and comfort for each other, those kinds of things. They tend to be relatively low stakes, although not always.

[00:29:48] The fact that this is a rising new subgenre right now really, I think, says a lot about the world. But my first foray into it was with Monk and Robot, and I adore it.

ANNE: I'm unsurprised that Becky Chambers is really landing for you. I'm trying to think if she's the one who's called her work hope punk or if those are readers describing her work back to herself. But I know she said many a time that she wants to write futures that feel good, that people would actually want to live in. And yet her approach to addressing the collective angst so many of us feel right now as a writer isn't to write books in which nothing happens, but low stakes, high world building is one approach that some authors are taking, and that's not hers.

JEFF: No. No.

ANNE: And she's become beloved so quickly for the reasons you're describing now.

[00:30:50] JEFF: I would say even that as much as there is a wide background cast in The Monk and Robot duology, there's really only two characters, the monk and the robot, that are really fleshed out at all. All of the action takes place in the dialogue between the two of them, and then Dex's, the main character's inner monologue. So there's a lot going on even as they're just kind of wandering through the wilderness or going from town to town. So it's delightful.

ANNE: In a very philosophical way. Is that something you enjoy?

JEFF: I think so. And I guess my third one is going to draw this out as well. The third one that I picked surprised even me for picking it. I chose Frankenstein by Mary Shelley. And I chose this I think for a few reasons. I've been thinking about why I wanted to put this on the list, and I think it's because on the one hand, I do like the classics. I've read a handful of the classics, and I find that they can really inform not just my understanding of the literary world and not just enjoying the book for its own sake. I mean, classics are called classics for reasons. They're usually very good.

[00:32:01] But also understanding that almost every book is riffing off of someone else. We all stand on the shoulders of giants. I've been told that in order to understand literature, you need to understand the Bible. Well, I've got two degrees in theology to help me understand the Bible, but I heard you on a recent episode talking about Middlemarch and how much that informed your perspective on so many other books. Once you had read Middlemarch, you suddenly got all of these different allusions. And so now Middlemarch is on my list.

Frankenstein definitely was a pivotal work, not just for literature, but also... I read a critical edition of it, which I really loved. I read it in an academic setting. I was doing my master's degree, and I took a literature course. So, reading a critical edition, you know, all of those academic footnotes help you understand the context in which it was written, and I learned more about early feminism through Mary Shelley, Mary Wollstonecraft.

[00:33:02] That insight into the process of writing, but also just the context in which it was written really added so much depth to the story. I do love taking deep dives like that. I don't know that I'm going to have the time anytime in the near future, but I do love a good deep dive into another world, maybe from our past or maybe into a wholly imagined world. And so having a classic and having the reflections of others over the last couple centuries to really dig deeper into it I think is something I value.

ANNE: All right. That's good to know. And I'm going to be thinking about how perhaps we can find you that intellectual and readerly satisfaction, but in smaller bite-sized pieces.

JEFF: Thank you.

ANNE: Since no big projects are on your horizon right now. Jeff, would you tell me a little bit about a book that was not right for you? And I'd love to hear where the bad fit arose from.

[00:34:02] JEFF: Sure. This one was also very easy for me to pick, and it was Game of Thrones, George R.R. Martin. Now, sounds funny because I love fantasy, and these days if people talk about or think about fantasy, they usually go first to Game of Thrones. I tried really hard to like Game of Thrones, but I found very quickly that any characters that I actually liked or respected at all, by the end of the first book they're either dead or about to be, and I just lost interest in the story.

I found that I really need to actually like a protagonist. I need to respect them. I know a few people have told me about their favorite fantasy novels, and I've read them. There were two actually that I thought of. One was Thomas Covenant series, and another was one by Guy Gavriel Kay, and both very well-respected series or books. Both start with a sexual assault, and I just thought, "No, you're not the protagonist if you're doing that to somebody. You're not my guy." So if I don't respect the main character or if I find them just unlikable, I just lose interest really quickly.

[00:35:15] ANNE: Okay. That is good to know. And also, you can love fantasy without loving all fantasy. Like, it just doesn't work like that.

JEFF: Amen.

ANNE: Jeff, what have you been reading lately?

JEFF: There are two books that I've been reading lately that I have really enjoyed. One is A Field Guide for the Formerly Villainous, which is absolutely-

ANNE: What a title!

JEFF: Absolutely a comfort story. It's about someone who, it's a fantasy setting and they were a part of the cult of the Enchantrix, who was a villain who was eventually defeated by adventurers and now this person is trying to start a new life knowing that they still have the scars of their past as part of being part of this death cult and being a formerly villainous person. So it's very much a cozy fantasy about comfort and finding new starts and new friends. It was a balm to my soul.

[00:36:09] The other one that I'm really enjoying right now is by Adrian Tchaikovsky. It is called Green City Wars. It's almost like a noir detective novel, except it is in a solarpunk setting, a futuristic green city, being a sustainable city, where all of the works of the city, the pipes and electricity and all of the menial tasks are handled by genetically engineered animals.

And so you follow Scotch Raccoon, PI, as he looks for this mouse that everybody's looking for. And meanwhile, there's an entire animal economy behind the walls and under the streets of this city where the humans are oblivious to all of it, and there's wars between the gray squirrels and the red squirrels, and there's rat mafia. It's take a kind of a hard-boiled detective noir idea and make it fuzzy and cute in a really funny way that is still very much a good commentary on society. And this makes you think like, "Wow, yeah, we make humans do all of the stuff that they're showing is actually really hard work for rats and raccoons in real life."

[00:37:17] So I really enjoy that it is, again, very light stakes in that it's very removed from real life and yet at the same time shines such a light onto real life in a way that is provocative.

ANNE: I've heard a lot of Adrian Tchaikovsky just lately from the science fiction and fantasy readers in my life, but I've not read him before. So thanks for reminding me. Okay, Jeff, we've talked about what you want to happen next in your reading life, and... I mean, tell me what you would find most useful. A place my curiosity is going, as a starting point, is what is on that shelf of books that you have assembled for yourself in your quest to branch out that you haven't read? Is there anything there that we could talk about? And also, what is your favorite librarian bringing home with her? Are those landing? Are there some you're curious about or you're wondering where perhaps you could try first to get the most reward for your reading efforts?

[00:38:15] JEFF: Sure. I have been trying to branch out into romance, because that's been very hot right now. Especially the subgenre of hockey romance. But also romantasy. Right now we've got a romance shelf in the bookstore and a fantasy shelf in the bookstore, and most new books that come in we're not sure which one to put them on. But they're at opposite ends of the store, so we're going to have to rearrange some things, I think.

So I've been branching out a little bit into that, getting... I've tried some Ali Hazelwood, for example. That was okay, but it really is the upmarket fiction and sort of the book club stuff that's happening that I'm just completely oblivious to. I know that we're selling a lot of Theo of Golden. I don't even know what it's about, and I would love to be able to speak coherently about that or trying to think of... what it's called now? I'm so bad with names. I apologize.

ANNE: No, that's okay. So will a lot of your readers be?

JEFF: That's true.

[00:39:17] ANNE: It is what it's going to be like in the bookstore.

JEFF: Absolutely is, yeah. And then I can picture titles. And this is a thing I've noticed is that very often finding the right book is about remembering physically where in the shop it is and having a general sense of what color.

ANNE: That is my brain.

JEFF: There is one right now that is a critically acclaimed book about gay men in Jamaica.

ANNE: The Disappearers.

JEFF: The Disappearers. I've been hearing about this. I know we have it on the shelf in a few different places. We've sold a few of those. And I read the synopsis and thought, "Oh, gosh, that sounds like it's a book about oppression. I don't know if I have the heart right now." And yet I know that there are people who are going to come into my store who are looking for books that are going to be maybe adjacent to that, and I don't know what to tell them. I would love to be able to find something that is in maybe the same category as that or John of John or Theo of Golden or other books along those lines that maybe I'm not going to feel burnt out after reading. Do you know what I mean?

[00:40:27] ANNE: I think so. Another question I have is the titles available, and I imagine to some extent the titles readers are asking for are constantly changing. So I'm wondering how much it matters what's on the shelves now versus February. Are you thinking backlist? Are you thinking futures?

JEFF: I'm thinking...

ANNE: I mean, we definitely have enough to go on, but I'm just really looking to hone it in here.

JEFF: I don't know that it necessarily matters right now versus February. What I'm looking for is to have a touchstone in every shelf of the bookstore so that I can say, "Oh, we put this next to this for a reason. I don't know this one, but I've read this one, and I understand what it is you're looking for." I know that that means that I'm going to need to read widely and diversely because a lot of the titles that we have coming in that are growing in appreciation in our culture are from different cultures. You know, we've got a number of Japanese books on our shelf right now. That's lovely to see that coming in.

ANNE: I have one in mind for you, actually.

[00:41:35] JEFF: A lot of books are about immigrants to North America and bringing their cultural experience, and that's stuff that I'm not terribly aware of. So I know that I could probably throw darts from one side of the store to the other and just pick up books and get a sense of it, but I'm trying to get a sense of, okay, how do I narrow this down so that I'm not just reading something random but that I'm reading something that's going to be an important touchstone for me to be able to say, "Oh, you loved this book. Now I can use that as a basis for... Because I understand this one book that I know that you loved, how do I then take that and say, 'Okay, well, these other books that have come out since then, I haven't read them yet, but I understand that this is what you're looking for?'"

ANNE: That's helpful, which means if it's a bestseller now and not quite as popular come February, that's fine. You'll still have the understanding you need.

[00:42:30] Okay, so you are looking to branch out, especially to upmarket and literary, and are at a loss. Oh, here, we will recap for our listeners. The books you loved were The Wheel of Time by Robert Jordan, Monk and Robot by Becky Chambers, and Frankenstein by Mary Shelley. Not for you was Game of Thrones series by George R.R. Martin, although I'm staying away from science fiction and fantasy because you have your touchstones on those shelves of the bookstore. And it sounds like identifying books about comfort, the cozy, cozy, cozy, finding care and community, that that is serving as a selector for you that can function well in genres like romance and mystery. And those aren't the only genres you can find that, but that gives you a nice foothold.

I have some ideas in no particular order. Thinking about what doesn't feel terribly far removed from science fiction and fantasy, and yet would not be shelved there in the bookstore, I'm thinking about the works of American author Kevin Wilson. Have you read anything by him?

JEFF: I have not.

[00:43:47] ANNE: Okay, I am not sad to hear that. And something else I like about Kevin is I believe that his books sell well consistently, and he is a working writer who's putting out a book every couple of years, and I imagine that readers will still be coming to him to find what they want to read next.

The one I want to start with is maybe two books back. It might even have come out pre-pandemic, but it's called Nothing to See Here. And I think it has a couple elements that may appeal to you personally, and also it definitely, like, is that upmarket branching out. I'm not sure if he would be shelved as upmarket or literary, but we are operating in that space.

Kevin happens to teach creative writing in the university setting, in case that matters as you envision him and your kinship with him. But this is a story that definitely has a zany element. Like Kevin says, like, he's weird. His books are weird. He can't help it. He decided to try to make it his superpower.

[00:44:47] But this book is about a politician. There's this powerful political family in the American South who have this problem that they can't let anybody know about. When their kids get angry, they spontaneously combust. This would be a career-ender for the want tobe presidential candidate, who, as I recall, is a senator right now. He's angling to become Secretary of State. So his family's under the microscope, and nobody can know the kids catch fire.

So the family calls on a person they didn't expect to need to step in as a nanny of sorts to wrangle these boys, and she is an estranged old friend with a troubled past who just has no idea what she's signing up to do. But even though on the surface, it's zany, like people are bursting into flames, obviously that's deep symbolism, it's such a poignant meditation on friendship and parenthood and hopes and dreams as they clash with reality.

[00:45:51] There's triumph and big defeats, and it's also a story about becoming your own person and forming your own family, whether that's the one you're given or the one you find. There's also a queer love story in this book. It's short. He typically writes books that are just over 200 pages. The characters are really memorable. I wonder if this would feel like a step outside your comfort zone instead of a leap across the abyss.

JEFF: It does. I really like the sound of that. I think that having fantastical elements inside otherwise contemporary political landscape makes the contemporary political landscape a little bit more palatable and accessible.

ANNE: I hope so. He's written two more books since then, and I don't think I'm dropping one out, but he's been writing long enough now that he has quite the... he's filling up his own shelf, Kevin Wilson is. But his most recent one is called Run for the Hills, and that has zero magical realism but preserves that zany sense.

[00:46:56] It's a road trip across the country from Tennessee, where Kevin Wilson is based, to California, as there are four half-siblings who do not know of the... Oh, wait. Hang on. If it matters, it starts in Boston, not Tennessee. Okay. So actually coast to coast. But four half-siblings who do not know that the others exist, they have no idea that their dad has been leading all these secret lives, who find each other, or rather get picked up one by one by the half-brother who starts it all in Boston and go on a trek to see their father.

JEFF: Interesting.

ANNE: Some for the first time in like a year, and some for the first time in 30 or 40. So it's zany, but also he's talking about real, authentic, important, sometimes hard human emotions, but in a package that I don't feel like is hitting you over the head with the pain in the world right now. But that's my hope.

JEFF: I like that.

[00:47:54] ANNE: But Nothing to See Here, I think that's the one for you to start. And readers are still reading this. This is still selling well on the backlist. It's one that I wouldn't be at all surprised to see on the shelves of my local bookstore that I think holds 8,000 copies, so in the same range right now.

JEFF: I might even have it on my shelf and don't even know it.

ANNE: Whoa. Maybe. For the Japanese pick that I was wondering, I wonder if this is... You know what? This isn't science fiction/fantasy. What we have here is contemporary fiction, literary fiction, definitely absurdist, but I hope you'll hear why it doesn't sound terribly outside your wheelhouse. The book I'm thinking of is called Diary of a Void. It's by Emi Yagi. Do you know it?

JEFF: I don't know it.

[00:48:45] ANNE: Okay. This is translated from the Japanese. It's short, it's weird, and what I like about it for you is that it does that thing that the science fiction/fantasy I enjoy, especially the science fiction that I enjoy, does so well, which is pose this wild "what if" question, and realize that the book is calling you to reevaluate so much that you took for granted in your own life.

This story starts with a 34-year-old woman working at a cardboard tube manufacturer in Japan, and at first she really likes her role because at the job where she came from, sexual harassment was a constant threat, and she, like, she needed to get out of there, and she did. And in this story that's firmly in the past, I don't recall any details about what happened, just that she didn't like it, and she wanted to leave, and she did.

[00:49:40] But in her new job, which at first was such a welcome change, she realizes, like, sure, they might be kind to her, her new male colleagues, but they expect her to wait on them all day long. She's the one who's expected to get the tea, and do the dishes, and clean up, and, "Do you know where the towels are?" And, "Do you know where the soap is?" And all those things that it's not her job to take care of, except she's a woman.

One day, completely impulsively, when they're like, "Wait on us, wait on us," she's like, "It smells bad, and I'm pregnant, so I can't." But she's not pregnant. But she realizes that her work life instantly becomes a lot better. Like, instead of looking to her to serve them, they're waiting on her. Because she couldn't because she has this real, "It smells bad," and, "No, no, no, you rest." And so she decides, "This is great. How can I keep the ruse going, like, for the whole nine months?"

[00:50:34] So this is playful and clever, but also really subversive, and also there's a point at which you're like, "Wait a second. I'm not sure what reality is in this book anymore." And it really makes you think as a reader, like, what is happening? What is Emi Yagi trying to do? What is the character actually thinking? Like, what is real and what is imagined, and where is the line, and is there a line? And is that even the right question to ask? It could be fun. Maybe. Maybe. Do you think it could be fun?

JEFF: It sounds like it could be a lot of fun. It's not something that I would normally pick for myself, but it does sound fun. So that's a great recommendation.

ANNE: I'm wondering if we go next to a mega hit bestseller that the whole world has read, except that's never actually true. Maybe it could serve as a touchstone. I'm thinking about Amor Towles, A Gentleman in Moscow. What do you think? Did I just see you wince?

[00:51:34] JEFF: Well, that's on my shelf of books that I really want to read.

ANNE: What appeals to you?

JEFF: I'll preface this by saying that I've seen the series and did love the story. The idea of the whole plot turning around his relationships with the people in this hotel. It was actually one of the things that most inspired the novel that I've been working on. I've just finished the first draft of my first novel, and it really is about people in a fairly constrained space who are building relationships and having plot develop around them and between them. I really loved that aspect of the series.

And then at times it does get very intense. I mean, with the Russian Revolution, there's a lot of atrocity and oppression and things like that that felt very heavy. And so I have been looking at that one on my shelf, I've got two of his books on my shelf, thinking, "Is this a way that I can build up my stamina for reading about these awful things in the world, knowing that I care enough about these characters?" Because they are delightful characters, and interesting. Even the villains are very interesting and, in many ways, very sympathetic villains. And yet, man, that Russian Revolution was a hard time. So I think it's a good recommendation that I've been trying to psych myself up for for a year.

[00:53:12] ANNE: I forgot there was a series. I haven't seen the series.

JEFF: Oh, it's very good. I mean, Ewan McGregor is phenomenal.

ANNE: I can understand why in the series they would want to conjure the backdrop against his sentence he's serving out inside this luxury hotel that doesn't appear prominently on the page. But this is... for readers who haven't read it, because if you haven't, it's never just you. I mean, this is the story of a Russian count who the Bolsheviks sentence in 1922 for crimes of state. Readers, they involve poetry.

His punishment is house arrest in a swanky luxury hotel called the Metropol Hotel that's across the street from the Kremlin. And what Amor Towles does here is show us how over many decades, the count makes a life for himself after his walls are literally closed in upon him. So it's a little bit claustrophobic, but oh my goodness, I could have told you what the dish was they make in the kitchen years ago. Now, is it bouillabaisse?

JEFF: It might be, yeah.

[00:54:28] ANNE: There's this scene that I want to actually go reread as soon as we hang up, Jeff. Is the one in which the Count and a few of his co-conspirators plan for ages in order to source all the ingredients so they can make one fantastic dinner in the hotel kitchen, and then they sit down and they savor it together. Oh, and there's a detailed scene about, like, how he gets a great shave. That was just such an indulgent human experience.

I read this when it first came out, so clearly it's one that stays in readers' minds long after they finish reading it. I think it's been out 10-something, maybe 10 years and a couple months at this point. Staying power. And he'll keep writing books. He's working on something. He'll have more to come.

JEFF: I think that is a really good recommendation. Thank you for giving me a little shove to follow through on it.

[00:55:21] ANNE: Okay, let's do two more. I dislike how many of these are American. Some of my favorite authors are... I love Mary Lawson. Some of her settings are not far from you. Her books are brutal. You don't want... In a couple years maybe we'll be ready. I think about what branching out might look like, and I, three of the five we're talking about are going to be American, and I'm sorry. That's okay.

I do wonder if taking a look at Searching for Terry Punchout, that Danielle recommended to me on a recent episode that I then went back and read, she found it via Canada Reads, I wonder if that would be a good selection for you, but Danielle already described it brilliantly on the show. So I won't step in her place. But for a literary upmarket novel that maybe will appeal to you is another one that's a little comic, okay, a lot comic, called Country People by Daniel Mason. He also wrote North Woods that sold very well several years ago. Is this an author-

JEFF: I've heard of North Woods.

[00:56:16] ANNE: For this one, he has said that his intention was to write a serious novel about Chekhov, but that kept not coming out of his fingers and onto the page. What he got was this. It is sharply comic, and it's about the absurdities of city people who pack up their lives in California and move to the country in Vermont, where they have all these romantic notions about what country life will be like. And they are demolished in short order by reality.

So the husband and wife are both academics. Kate, the wife, is a literature scholar, and she's been given a visiting professorship, and it's a swanky gig. They're real excited that she got this... they're going to go on a year-long adventure, then they're going to go back to their life in California. It's just going to be a blip. It's going to be great. And the husband, Miles, is going to finally finish his dissertation that he's been working on for something like 14 years. Like, this is a grown man who's still very much trying to figure out what he wants to be when he grows up, and it's absurd. I hope delightfully absurd to you.

[00:57:28] But there are small town scandals, conspiracy theories, but not scary ones, just ridiculous. The whole thing is just ridiculous, but not empty-headed. There's a family dog with a turbocharged sense of smell that factors prominently in the plot. There's a ski instructor so handsome that the whole town knows, like, you gotta be careful with him. He will scramble your senses. The husband maybe joins a cult. The kids get into their own trouble. We get the dog's point of view, and we see how he's hatching his own schemes. Some of the book is told as transcripts of a local call-in radio show. Mason is a skilled literary writer. This is really smartly written, but it's also really silly.

For the serious, this is a novel about what it means when expectations crash into reality. There's a lot of talk of literature in the pages, especially Paradise Lost, because Kate, the wife, is a Milton specialist. This is a midlife reckoning novel where this couple and many of their peers are going, "Is this what I wanted? Is this what I signed up for, and what does it mean for what happens next?" So I'm wondering how that sounds.

[00:58:36] JEFF: That sounds incredible. It sounds really familiar to me in the sense that Brighton is a really small town, a historic agricultural community, and we're growing really quickly, mostly from people who are retiring from Toronto. There's a lot of this idea of people moving to the country and having their expectations of life here challenged. And as a municipal councilor here, I hear a lot about that. So it sounds very familiar in that respect, but lovely to approach it from a zany perspective as well.

I am familiar with Paradise Lost and the academics around that, so I would probably enjoy that aspect as well. And yeah, finding absurd in the everyday is one of the things that makes life in these challenging times palatable and enjoyable. So I love that.

[00:59:26] ANNE: That sounds good. Jeff, I would love to find you a book akin to Marlon James' The Disappearers, and it is breaking my brain right now to think about something that is not emotionally devastating that lives in the same space. The closest I'm able to get, like on reflexive reaction, is How to Say Babylon, a memoir by Safiya Sinclair, which is not at all the same story.

But I wonder if there are enough elements that those books could coexist while still working to do very different things. I wonder if that's helpful, and I also wonder where that is on your post-burnout literary brain and content because the thing about a memoir is you know every word did not come from the author's imagination but from their heart and their memory. But her story is really compelling, and I wonder if that might be a good entry point.

JEFF: Okay.

[01:00:32] ANNE: But I'm going to keep thinking about that, and I will let you know if I'm able to come up with a really satisfying answer.

JEFF: Thank you.

ANNE: And I'm going to end with something light and British, if that's okay with you.

JEFF: I love both light and British things.

ANNE: Okay. I was not planning on talking about this today, so we'll see. We'll see how coherent I sound. But I just finished the new Nick Hornby novel that comes out awfully close to when you will be assuming ownership of the bookstore. It's called Cash Out. So he writes upmarket fiction, and what I like about this for you is it's a book with real depth that wrestles with important questions and is not emotionally devastating, doesn't touch any of those brutal topics. It's about football, or as we say in the US, it's about soccer, and I don't actually know how to talk about this because I feel so silly calling it soccer, but the word soccer does not appear in the book. I believe I remember you saying that books that would appeal to a wide demographic age-wise would be welcome.

JEFF: Yes.

[01:01:34] ANNE: What I like about this book is the protagonist is in her early to mid-30s, but the man who kicks it all off is her uncle. And her uncle is someone that as a reader you'd feel very happy seeing yourself in because of who he is in the story. So I do like how it functions on that multi-generational level.

Here's the thing. Sophie, our protagonist, her uncle has been a diehard fan for the worst team in British soccer for his entire life because he is from their town. It defies reason. It defies sense. So many people have said to him, "You know, you'd be a lot happier if you rooted for a better team," but this team is his, and there's no changing it. It just is what it is. And last year it wasn't all bad to be a fan of this team because their big win was they narrowly escaped relegation. This is where the bar is. They didn't get sent down, so that's an amazing... Like, people were popping champagne, like amazing celebratory triumph.

[01:02:37] So it's their shtick that every time Sophie sees her uncle, oh, my goodness, what's his na... Keith, every time it's her duty to say, "And what's Leicester up to?" And he tells her, and they have a long conversation where he goes into way too many details that he knows she cannot follow and isn't interested in. But she adores her Uncle Keith, who is misunderstood by the rest of the family. And she will listen to every word he says, and she enjoys her role in the performance, which is to feign interest and ask very good follow-up questions even though she hasn't a clue what any of this football terminology means.

So that is why when this team starts the season not terribly, and Keith decides to put 50 pounds on a 5,000 to 1 bet for the team to take it all, he decides to do another 50 pounds in Sophie's name. But then they start winning, and a couple games into the season, she realizes... I think the game's on a pub or something, and she's like, "Wait, is this the team? I've never actually seen them play. Who are these guys? Oh, my uncle talked about him. Oh, that's the superstar. My uncle calls him a whippet."

[01:03:44] And she gets really invested, and she's like, "Wait a second. I like all these people who've been into sports? I thought that they were shallow and, like didn't know what a good book was," but it turns out this is a book club where you're all reading the same book, but it never ends, like in a really good way. Like, there's always something new to talk about when you're following the football season.

This is a found family story in that she finds this community of fellow not just sports fans, but fans of this team that she did not know existed. So she feels like she's found a hidden paradise. She's learned a secret language, and it transforms her life. But meanwhile, there's money in it. And she learns... the book is called Cash Out, she learns that the options are, upon her uncle placing this bet for her. And he said from the get-go, "You can do whatever you want with it. This is yours. I did it for you. You have all the responsibility."

[01:04:40] That it's not just you win a quarter of a million pounds or nothing. Once they start winning, the bookies are very interested in buying back her bet. So she has a decision to make several games in like, "Hey, do you want to get out of debt so you can afford to move out of your crap boyfriend's house and buy that dress you wanted to go to your friend's wedding and not feel like you're drowning in a small amount of debt, but still, you have no money to pay it off in your charity job? Do you want 9,000 pounds now? Because you're probably not going to get 250,000 pounds later."

So through the book, I think the first line is, "This is a story about money." But she's constantly thinking like, "Should I, should I, should I, should I?" And if they want to pay her like 40,000 pounds, is that worth it? What about 200,000 pounds? Is that worth it? And then people find out that she has this option, and people find out like, "Wait, could you be a true fan if you have money in it in this way?"

[01:05:34] What I really liked about this book is on the surface it's so breezy while wrestling with this question of like, what is a good life? What does it take to make a good life? What is a life-changing amount of money? Is there such a thing? What's our relationship to money? How do we interact with people when money enters the picture? What does it mean to be a fan? What does it mean to love something? What does it mean to love something hopeless? And then how do we feel when it... What does it mean to live through a life-changing thing that we know will never happen again, and like live with the sorrow of that? All right. That was more than I thought I had to say about Cash Out. How's that sounding to you?

JEFF: That's sounding excellent for a number of reasons. First, it's been ages, but I have read Nick Hornby before and really liked him, and I've, of course, seen the movies of some of his books. And so I know that that will be accessible to me for sure. It sounds like a good recommendation because it's a book about sports, and I am decidedly indoorsy, and so would not choose it for myself.

ANNE: So is Sophie.

[01:06:33] JEFF: That's right. That's a good challenge for me to be more appreciative of sports. I know it's not a popular thing for a politician to say that I'm not into hockey or sports in general. So I know that that's one of my weaknesses for sure, is to just even be conversant about sports. So this will be a good challenge for me in that respect. And that discussion of found family really... the concept of community is really important to me.

I really see that there's a strong continuum between the work I do as a municipal counselor and the work that I want to do as a bookstore owner, just being invested in the quality of life of the people around me by providing that service of giving them good books to read. So yeah, I like this on every level. Thank you.

[01:07:26] ANNE: I like the way you're thinking, and I like that that sounds good. And maybe you can start a sports table. You've got Terry Punchout. You can do the Nick Hornby. I'm sure your patrons can recommend a few more. I'm not suggesting you fool anybody, but you might appear to be a sports guy for a moment.

JEFF: For a moment, yeah. That's a good idea.

ANNE: All right. Jeff, this has been such a pleasure. Thanks so much for coming to talk about your bookstore on the show.

JEFF: It's been a real delight to be here. Thank you so much, Anne. You've given me a lot to think on and work through, and I will be a better reader advisor or hand seller because of you, so thank you.

ANNE: Well, I'm so excited for your store, and I can't wait to hear what happens next.

JEFF: Thank you.

ANNE: Hey readers, I hope you enjoyed my conversation with Jeff, and I'd love to hear what you think he should read next. Find Jeff and his bookstore online. We'll have those links and the full list of titles we talked about today at whatshouldireadnextpodcast.com.

[01:08:31] Keep up with our show on Instagram at @whatshouldireadnext. Sign up for our email list at whatshouldireadnextpodcast.com/newsletter, and we will send you updates about our newest episodes, upcoming events, and other happenings at What Should I Read Next HQ.

Please make sure you're following in Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Overcast, wherever you get your podcasts.

And if you'd enjoy hearing episodes like today's without the ads, join us over on Patreon where you can do just that. Sign up for our $5 a month ad-free episodes tier to get our weekly show ad-free, or bundle ad-free episodes with our weekly bonuses and live events in our $10 a month Patreon all-inclusive tier. Find out more and see the options that may be just right for you at patreon.com/whatshouldireadnext.

[01:09:20] Thanks to the people who make this show happen. What Should I Read Next? is created each week by executive producer Will Bogel, Media production specialist Holly Wielkoszewski, social media manager and editor Leigh Kramer, community coordinator Brigid Misselhorn, community manager Shannan Malone, and our whole team at What Should I Read Next? and Modern Mrs. Darcy HQ. Plus the audio whizzes at Studio D Podcast Production.

Readers, that's it for this episode. Thanks so much for listening. And as Rainer Maria Rilke said, "Ah, how good it is to be among people who are reading." Happy reading, everyone.

• The Kite Runner by Khaled Hosseini
• Room by Emma Donoghue
• The Ministry for the Future by Kim Stanley Robinson
The Wheel of Time series by Robert Jordan (#1: The Eye of the World)
The Monk and Robot duology by Becky Chambers
Frankenstein by Mary Shelley
• Middlemarch by George Eliot 
▵ A Game of Thrones by George R.R. Martin
• The Chronicles of Thomas Covenant series by Stephen R. Donaldson (#1: Lord Foul’s Bane)
• Guy Gavriel Kay (try Tigana)
• Field Guide for the Formerly Villainous by Autumn K. England
• Green City Wars by Adrian Tchaikovsky
• Ali Hazelwood (try The Love Hypothesis)
• Theo of Golden by Allen Levi
• The Disappearers by Marlon James
• John of John by Douglas Stuart
• Nothing to See Here by Kevin Wilson
• Run for the Hills by Kevin Wilson
• Diary of a Void by Emi Yagi, translated by David Boyd and Lucy North
• A Gentleman in Moscow by Amor Towles
• Searching for Terry Punchout by Tyler Hellard
• Country People by Daniel Mason
• North Woods by Daniel Mason
• How to Say Babylon by Safiya Sinclair
• Cash Out by Nick Hornby

: Guest favorite book
▵: A book they didn’t love

• Lighthouse Books
• Please support our sponsors.

The post Reading more broadly in order to give better book recommendations appeared first on Modern Mrs Darcy.

Today we’re shining a light on our Patreon community and the types of conversations that happen over there every Friday, as we feature three popular Patreon bonus episodes that give you a taste of what we do each week in that community.

We’re kicking off today’s episode with a fan favorite bonus from our ongoing Industry Insight series, before sharing a recent bonus conversation among members of our Modern Mrs. Darcy and What Should I Read Next? team. Our team members often pair up to talk about readerly topics of interest in our Patreon community, and this fascinating and delightfully detailed conversation about how our team members approach buying books sparked a lot of great conversations. Finally, we’ll close with a favorite episode of One Great Book, a series where either I or a member of our team tells you all about a book we love from our own shelves, usually in about 10 minutes or less.

Share a favorite Patreon episode or tell us about your book-buying strategies by leaving a comment below.

If you’d like more bookish conversations and bonus episodes like the ones you heard today, come and join us on Patreon. Our members at the Bonuses & Events or All-Inclusive tiers enjoy weekly bonus episodes like these, as well as access to our marquee events, like our recent Fall Book Preview Unboxing, and our upcoming Team’s Best Books of the Year event coming in January 2027. Find out more and sign up at ⁠⁠patreon.com/whatshouldireadnext⁠.⁠

[00:00:00] BRIGID MISSELHORN: What am I going to do with this dust jacket?

HOLLY WIELKOSZEWSKI: I can't deal with it. It's distracting.

LEIGH KRAMER: It just stays on.

HOLLY: It bothers me.

WILL BOGEL: It's a jacket.

LEIGH: It's a jacket.

WILL: The book just wears it. It just stays on. You don't have to do anything with it. It just stays on the book.

BRIGID: I like my books naked.

ANNE BOGEL: Hey readers, I'm Anne Bogel, and this is What Should I Read Next?. Welcome to the show that's dedicated to answering the question that plagues every reader, what should I read next? We don't get bossy on this show. What we will do here is give you the information you need to choose your next read.

[00:00:38] Today we're shining a light on our Patreon community and the types of conversations that happen over there every Friday. For members of our bonuses and events and all-inclusive tiers, we share a new bonus episode every week from a regular rotation of topics. Our bonus episodes include Mini Matchmaking, where I do a speed round of book recommending in the format you hear each week on this podcast, Dear Book Therapist, where I tackle tricky reading questions or conundrums, and Industry Insights, where I bring you along to explore unknown facets of the publishing industry.

We also make episodes dedicated to bringing you a whole bunch of great books on an interesting theme or topic. We often feature conversations or solo episodes from members of our team there, like our Starter Guide collection, One Great Book episodes, and Wild Card conversations on bookish topics that come up in conversation in our comment sections, or at team meetings, or are sometimes suggested by our Patreon members.

[00:01:33] Another perk of being a patron at the bonuses and events tier, or all-inclusive, is automatic access to our marquee events, like our recent Fall Book Preview Unboxing, and our upcoming Team's Best Books of the Year event coming in January 2027.

In our episode today, we are sharing three popular Patreon bonus episodes to give you a sampler of what we do every week in that community. If this episode sounds like something you'd like to hear more of, come join us at Patreon. That's patreon.com/whatshouldireadnext.

This past summer, we also rolled out our new ad-free episodes tier, which I know many of you have been waiting for and asking for and are really loving now. That tier is for one thing only, and that is the delivery of ad-free episodes, and it does it really well. But the ad-free episodes tier does not include those weekly bonus episodes, so make sure to check out the options on our Patreon sign-up page to choose the right fit for your reading life right now.

[00:02:29] We are kicking off today's episode with a fan favorite bonus from our ongoing Industry Insight series. I hope you'll hear some useful ideas and fascinating insights in this bonus.

Hey, readers, it's Anne, and I'm here with a special just-for-you bonus episode. Recently, I had the pleasure of circling back with some of my favorite booksellers for the State of the Bookstore episode we made for you and aired in early March.

Initially, like I said here in the discussion thread post, we'd envisioned that we would have a single episode with six bookseller interviews, and then we got so much good tape we couldn't bear not to share it. So you haven't actually heard part two of that episode yet, but it's coming, and in it, you will hear from Alison Frenzel and Elizabeth Barnhill of Fabled Bookshop in Waco. Alison is the co-owner of the bookshop, and Elizabeth has been Fabled's book buyer since before they even opened in late summer 2019.

[00:03:23] During our conversation together, and I'm sorry to say, this was after we stopped recording, we were talking about spring and summer reading and all the books coming out, and Elizabeth made a comment that I thought was worth putting in front of you today. She said her favorite books of the year are consistently the ones that come out between January 1st and the first week of April.

Now, if you're not familiar with the publishing calendar or with Elizabeth as a reader, you might posit that she starts strong on her New Year's resolutions and then fizzles. Or maybe you would think it was situational. But she didn't say she reads her favorite books in the first 30% of the year. She says they're published then. I thought this would be a good opportunity to look at the publishing calendar and what kinds of books are typically published when.

We're talking about why certain books come out at certain times of the year. So let's start by saying very clearly that oftentimes the book's release date has nothing to do with its seasonality. None. Sometimes that pub date, and when I say pub date, I mean publication date, I think you know that, let's be sure here. The pub date is what it is simply because that's when the book is ready.

[00:04:29] To give you an example, Laura Vanderkam, who writes primarily in the productivity space, once said that after she went through the process of book proposal to contract, the next available spot in her publisher's production calendar was May. And so she went on to write her first draft, then go through editing and copy editing, galley proofs, the whole shebang, she hit all her deadlines, so it did in fact have that planned May release date.

Because each of her subsequent books followed the same basic timeline, many of her books ended up coming out in the spring. But her most recent release didn't follow that same timeline. Tranquility by Tuesday came out in October because that's when it was ready, and that was fine.

Also, that's the book Laura talked about when she was on the podcast earlier this year, and I think we both mentioned then that we are in a writing group together, and this is exactly the sort of stuff we talk about in that group.

The general balance of the publication calendar is a consideration when publishers are choosing release dates for their books. Even though sometimes it does not appear to be the case, publishers do aim to plan their releases so they're nicely staggered. They don't want all their big releases, when I say big, I mean the books that they have decided in advance to print the most copies of, to give the most marketing support to before they even know how the readers are going to respond.

[00:05:44] They don't want all those big releases to release on the same day. And by that I mean both that Macmillan, say, wants to stagger their own Macmillan releases so they're not in competition with each other, and they also don't want to go up against too many big books from Penguin or Hachette either. Sometimes this does not work out at all, and it seems like a zillion major releases come out all on the same day.

April 2022 famously saw several major, major Tuesdays. That was due in part to the pandemic and how it wreaked havoc with publication dates and timelines, in part to the fact that despite everyone's best intentions, this happens sometimes.

But even this year, just in the course of my Summer Reading Guide prep, it seems like May 2nd is going to be a dizzyingly big publication date, with scads of heavily promoted titles dropping all at once. That's not a huge surprise, as April, May, and then September are historically big months to release books.

[00:06:38] To give you a bit of insight into how editors might think strategically about timing, my editor and I were once discussing a certain title, and she said, "I made that book a bestseller," which sounds maybe a little audacious, but she went on to specifically explain that she'd done it by changing the release date.

The book in question had been slated to come out in the midst of a jam-packed September. So seeing that it did have potential to hit the list, and when an editor talks about hitting the list, they mean The New York Times Best Seller list, she moved it to August, where it had much less competition and did in fact hit. Maybe that doesn't seem like playing fair, but today is about the reality, not how things should be.

So let's go back now to Elizabeth's comment about how her favorite books tend to be published between January 1st and the first week of April. That's not about when the books are ready or the publisher's desire to spread their offerings evenly throughout the year. That is about the seasonality of the publishing calendar. So let's look at that next.

[00:07:37] Generally speaking, there are three seasons in publishing: spring, summer, and fall. Sometimes books are, on purpose, deliberately published in a certain season. If a book has a seasonal hook, it's far more likely to come out in that season.

Every derby book that has ever existed has probably been published in April. That is a real thing. I'm in Louisville. The derby is the first weekend in May, except when the pandemic one time made it in September. If a book has a seasonal hook, it'll come out in that season, usually.

Here's a really obvious extreme example. Hannah Orenstein's book, Head Over Heels, is about a retired gymnast coaching an aspiring athlete as she trains for her first Olympics. So this book was slated to come out a month before the 2020 Tokyo Games, the ones that got postponed a year because of the pandemic, but the book did not. But independent of such a strong hook in the actual book, the publishing calendar follows certain rhythms.

[00:08:31] So listen in as we talk about it, and while you do, think about Elizabeth's comment about her favorite books publishing between January 1st and the first week of April. You'll get a good idea of what she enjoys in her reading life.

We'll start with January, obviously big for any kind of story of new beginnings and fresh starts, and also a big season for self-help, personal growth, and career books.

February is for books about love and sometimes books that are adamantly not about love. For example, you may remember from the Spring Book Preview that Stone Cold Fox, a... I thought, deliciously devious novel about a scheming social climber determined to marry into the 1% and attain forever freedom from her ruinous past and do whatever it takes to make that happen. It cheekily came out on Valentine's Day.

[00:09:16] February is also a big month for poetry. March, April, and May are huge months for publishing. I remember talking to Mary Laura Philpott when her book got assigned an April release date, and she was freaking out a little bit saying, "Ah, they put me in April. I feel like I have a lot to live up to. Yikes." Her book was great, just by the way. She did fine.

But April means something to authors. March is a big month for spring releases and books expected to be popular with book clubs. In fact, two of our summer 2022 Modern Mrs. Darcy Book Club selections were published in March: Bonnie Garmus' Lessons in Chemistry and Peng Shepherd's The Cartographers.

March and April are also huge for historical fiction, and late April is when the big summer releases start coming. Like this year, the new Emily Henry is landing April 25th.

May sees memoir, romance, and books tied to Mother's Day and graduations. May to August is when we see lots of fantasy, adventure, science fiction, and thrillers.

[00:10:14] June sees beachy reads. This is Elin Hilderbrand's publication month, just to give you the flavor, and it has been for a long time.

July and August see a lot of mysteries and thrillers. For many years, Louise Penny's books came out in August, and readers knew they could depend on her to deliver a new book every August. When her husband Michael died, she thought she would take a year off from writing while she grieved, but ended up turning to writing for comfort. If this all sounds familiar, we touched on this topic when she was a guest on What Should I Read Next?

She did actually go on to write a book that year, but that book wasn't ready in time for her typical August release. The publisher couldn't even make that happen for Louise Penny, so that's the year she shifted to November, and since then, her books have come out every November. But back to the August Louise Penny left behind, on the whole, it tends to be a quieter month before that typically packed September.

[00:11:04] September issues in the season of literary fiction. Generally speaking, heavier, more serious, hear my air quotes there, come out in the fall, with September and October being the biggest months for this genre.

October is for the spooky stuff, horror and suspense.

And November is really interesting. It tends to be a light month publication-wise. Some of that has to do with the broader cultural landscape, like relatively few books come out in the Novembers of presidential election years. Publishers don't know what's going to happen, what public sentiment will be, if they'll be spending money. They don't go there.

But two categories are considered welcoming for November releases, and those are children's books and cookbooks. Remember, we're talking about publication dates being thin, but book sales are huge in November and December. However, most of those books that are selling are deliberately released well before Thanksgiving, so they're already in stores and have some momentum behind them when the holiday shopping blitz begins.

[00:12:00] Some exceptions of late that might give you a feel for what kinds of books are released immediately before Black Friday are the new Smitten Kitchen cookbook, Ann Patchett's These Precious Days, and Michelle Obama's The Light We Carry.

Now for December. Nobody wants to be a December release. Some wonderful books publish at the end of the year. I truly do not understand, but would like to if you have any insight, who would want their book to come out the last week of the year when readers are busy and distracted and the best of the year lists are already out? Book sales continue to be strong in December and right on into January, so perhaps that's part of it. I do not have the answer here.

I hope it's clear that while exceptions abound, there is a life cycle to the publishing calendar, and it could very well be impacting your reading life. If you think nothing looks good on Bookstagram in July, or that everything looks good on Bookstagram in July, it might not be your mood or mindset, but the reality that new books overshadow old on social media, plus a certain kind of book is more likely to be published in July.

[00:13:00] Or if everything on the new release table looks good in September, or nothing looks good on the new release table in September, that may very well be about your taste as well. We're not talking about these factors today as good or bad. Instead, we're looking at how things are, and I'm inviting you to reflect on what this may mean for your reading life.

Readers, thanks for joining me on this bonus. I would love to hear your thoughts and comments as always. Till next time, happy reading everyone.

[00:13:28]

ANNE: We'll be back in Patreon on Friday, October 30th with our next Industry Insights episode. That one is dedicated to the personalities of various literary awards.

Next up, we're sharing a recent bonus conversation among members of our Modern Mrs. Darcy and What Should I Read Next? team. Our team members often pair up to talk about reader-ly topics of interest in our Patreon community, and this fascinating and delightfully detailed conversation about how our team members approach buying books sparked a lot of great conversations. I hope you'll enjoy it as much as I did.

SHANNAN MALONE: Say hello, y'all.

BRIGID: Hi.

WILL: Hey, everybody.

HOLLY: Hello.

LEIGH: Hi there.

SHANNAN: As Anne would say, let's get to it. So to start us out, I'm curious, how many books do you read per year, each one of you?

WILL: Do we need to self-rank before we give the answer?

SHANNAN: What do you mean by that?

WILL: I'm going to be the lowest. I think 42.

SHANNAN: 42.

WILL: I think I read 42. And I bet that's less than everybody, but...

SHANNAN: No.

WILL: No?

SHANNAN: I was about 40 last year.

HOLLY: I think last year I was 65. I'm usually in the 60 to 90 range. It just really depends on the year.

BRIGID: This is interesting, because I'm about 80 to 90, around there. Almost always 79 to 88, somewhere within there.

SHANNAN: Which is wild to me.

HOLLY: That's a very specific number.

BRIGID: Which is wild. That's wild.

SHANNAN: And Leigh.

LEIGH: And I am on the high range, around 200 per year. Last year was 187, and the year before was 223.

SHANNAN: Will, we did self-rank.

WILL: Yeah, we did. Yeah, we did.

SHANNAN: Unintentionally.

WILL: Also, I probably could have guessed that too, like put them in order. I'm amazed by you all that have a 30-book range, because I said 42, I just made that up, but 40 to 44 every year. It's almost always exactly the same.

[00:15:29] SHANNAN: It is. And out of that number of books that you read, how many do you actually purchase? Because we're talking about adding the books to the actual physical library or digital library.

BRIGID: I have an exact answer to this from last year because I kept track of it with...

WILL: Research.

BRIGID: ...Donna and Shannan. We kept track of some of these things together, and a spreadsheet, of course, that Donna created. And of the 80 books I read last year, 10 of them I had purchased in print. But I only bought 14 new books last year. I feel like that's a good percentage, 10 out of the 14 I read. But now that's talking new books. Used books is a totally different number.

[00:16:22] SHANNAN: So you mean you purchase new books. I mean, you purchase old books and used books.

BRIGID: I purchased 14 new books, and I read 10 of them. They were 10 of the 80 I read. But I also purchased a lot of used books. Those I did not include in the new book count.

SHANNAN: So we really don't know how many because honestly, I don't know exactly how many I have purchased. I know how many I have let go of, but I don't know how many I actually brought in. I'm beginning to track that now.

[00:16:56] WILL: But you keep track of how many you get rid of?

SHANNAN: Yes.

WILL: Okay. I mean, because it's like a tax deduction? You're keeping your little [Goodwill?] receipts or something?

SHANNAN: No, it's more of a... I have my library in Goodreads, so when I get rid of them I have to take them out and I know how many-

WILL: You mark it off.

SHANNAN: ...that have gone out of my house.

LEIGH: And Shannan, you have a guest post about this topic coming up on the blog soon, so people can look forward to that.

SHANNAN: Yes. Thank you, Leigh. And now I'm nervous. Anyway, Holly, what you got?

[00:17:39] HOLLY: So the last year or two I've been really focused on trying to read through books I have bought in the past and have not yet read. So this past year I purchased seven books total, and I read 11 books that I'd purchased in previous years and hadn't read yet, and then everything else came from the library or whatnot.

SHANNAN: Now, we know you're a digital nomad, so are these physical or digital books, or are you counting them as the same?

HOLLY: I count them the same when I'm doing my stats as far as purchased and everything like that. But I do read mostly digital, but I still have a pretty good stack of physical TBR pile books that I'm working my way through also. And I like to take one of those with me on every trip and leave it in a little free library somewhere when I'm done.

LEIGH: Aw.

SHANNAN: Leigh.

[00:18:30] LEIGH: I do have a spreadsheet for all of this. And actually I did a bonus episode about this. This was one of my goals from... I feel like maybe it was two years ago where I wanted to read everything that I purchased within a month of buying it.

SHANNAN: Yes, I remember this.

LEIGH: Now, I have kind of fallen off with that. I'm still doing a pretty good job, but I'm not as militant about the one month rule. But because I track everything I read or I put it in the spreadsheet, I know that I have purchased around 100 books per year. And it's probably 70% e-books, 30% physical copies. But I will say also I'm a heavy, heavy library user, so most of these are something that I've gotten from the library, loved it, and then purchased after the fact.

[00:19:27] SHANNAN: So that's going to get to the crux of the conversation, which is what I wanted to talk about. But Will, I don't even know if this is appropriate question for you. I think when I'm looking at books, I'm thinking about you personally because I know books come in and go out, and come in and go out with Leigh's help sometimes, as Anne has told us. But how much do you bring in for yourself?

WILL: I mean, I'd like to say I don't buy books, but that's not actually true. I bought two books last week. I bought two books last week. I don't buy a lot of books, though, no. Yeah, pretty much no. Three or four? I don't know. I think people know because we've definitely talked about it a number of times. We have a used book sale in town that we love. And I usually buy half a dozen there. But then, I mean, going to a bookstore or whatever, that doesn't really... I don't do that.

[00:20:33] SHANNAN: Which brings me to the ultimate question. When do you decide to add a book to your physical and/or digital library? And Leigh, you had-

WILL: I was going to say I feel guilty because I just said I don't go to bookstores and I don't buy books, but I did buy two books last week, so I want to clarify. So why don't we just jump right in here?

SHANNAN: Okay, go ahead, Will. Jump right in.

WILL: As you said, we have a lot of books, and a lot of books come into our house. So I read a lot of books that Anne gets, and she's like, "Oh, I think you might like this." I read a lot of library books. Those are the two ways I generally read books. I generally only buy a book if I think I can't get it somewhere else. So if I see a book... I'm trying to think a book I bought last year, because I just bought two books last week, but I'm thinking last year. I can only think of one book that I bought.

[00:21:28] We were in St. Louis, and we stopped at The Novel Neighbor, and Holland was there, and Anne was talking for a while, and so the kids and I were shopping, right? And I was like, "Actually, I think I am going to buy this book. I've never heard of it. It seems right up my alley, and it's possible it's at the library, but it is very distinctly possible that it's not at my library." So I bought a book that I thought, "This is the moment, and I don't know that I could get it again." Of course, I could take a note and I could buy it online and what... I'm sure I could get it again. But for the most part, they're books that I feel like I can't get ahold of.

The two books I bought last week, same thing. One was a sort of philosophical treatise on design. I don't even know what kind of bookstore you would buy that in. I don't know what section it would be in. I came across it and I'm like, "This sounds really cool," so I bought it, just like that.

[00:22:18] And same thing with the used book sales. Our used book sales have tons and tons of what I would call library books. I don't need those. I can get them at the library any time. But then I come across something and I'm like, "Oh, well, this is not going to be in a bookstore because it's more than a few years old, and bookstores just don't keep copies of stuff that's not new unless it just continues to move. So I'm not going to come across it in a bookstore, and if I don't browse the library the right way, I just won't ever find that book again kind of deal. So those are the books that I buy.

And especially for the used bookstore... Well, actually, you know what? Even traveling. Even traveling, going to bookstores, buying souvenirs, I don't always read them. So those are the books I buy, but I... Leigh's 30-day rule, I'm like, "What are you talking about?"

SHANNAN: All right. Leigh, you were starting to say something about why or when you buy books, so please tell us more.

[00:23:19] LEIGH: So library first as much as possible unless it's not available at any of my libraries. And I do search near and far because I am on a budget. But I will pre-order a book from a favorite author. Like I just got a signed copy of The Paris Match by Kate Clayborn. And that is 100% worth it to me. Also, I'm friendly with Kate, so this is not me being a total punk, but I told her a compliment that I wanted her to write about me.

BRIGID: I love this.

LEIGH: And I've done this a couple of times, and she goes along with it. She's great. Again, we are friendly. I don't do this to every author. But part of it is to make her laugh when she's signing, and part of it is because I wanted to have something nice about myself forever emblazoned in a book that I love.

[00:24:19] SHANNAN: I love that.

LEIGH: So there's that. Also, special editions can be tempting, but again, it has to be a book that I know that I'm going to love. I rarely buy books that I haven't read, because I really want to get it from the library, because it really... I struggle with buying a book and then hating it. It just feels like such a waste. But if I get it from the library, the author's still getting that money, and I am saving my money. So that is a good gamble for me.

And then I love going to McKay Used Books whenever I'm back in Nashville, and I will sell stuff back, so I get a lot of credit from them. That is where I will get a lot of my out-of-print romances that I want for my romance history project that I'm doing with friends or just books that I love in general. That's where I will pick them up.

[00:25:22] Also, a lot of e-book deals. If it's a book that I love, I'll kind of wait until it goes on sale. And sometimes they don't go on sale, and maybe I'll just eventually get it because I want it anyways. But I feel like those are the usual metrics. Oh, thrift books also is another used source. Yes, Will. I can see Will is [crosstalk 00:25:48] for me.

SHANNAN: You guys can't see this, but Will is raising his hand, y'all.

WILL: I got a question. If you've already read the book, does the 30-day rule apply? I'm confused.

LEIGH: No. No. No, the 30-day-

WILL: Because you already read it.

LEIGH: The 30-day rule doesn't apply anymore. This was a couple of years ago. I'm more lax about it now.

WILL: Mature.

LEIGH: But if I got it from the library, then I've already read it. It goes on a separate column on the spreadsheet, the already read column, as opposed to the month by month column of here's what I have purchased and what I need to read in a timely manner. So I don't feel like I'm wasting my money on stuff that I'm never going to get around to, and reducing the clutter.

WILL: I see.

[00:26:34] SHANNAN: So do you ever think... and this can be for everyone. Do you ever think, "Oh, that sounds so great," when you hear about it or see it in the bookstore, and you're like, "I'm going to buy that now"? Has that ever happened to anyone, or is that something that generally doesn't occur in this group?

LEIGH: A book that I've never... I didn't know about it and I encounter it in the bookstore, and then...

BRIGID: I can count on one hand the amount of times that's happened to me.

WILL: Really?

BRIGID: Yeah. Usually...

HOLLY: I do that a lot.

BRIGID: You do that a lot?

SHANNAN: Okay, Holly, share, please.

HOLLY: Sorry, I didn't mean to cut you off, Brigid.

BRIGID: No, go. I'm very intrigued.

HOLLY: I do that a lot. I have four different categories where I buy a book, and I'll tell you all four of them in a minute, but two of them fall under this situation. One of them is when I'm traveling, because if I go to an international bookstore, my goal is to discover a local author I've never heard of before and buy a book. So in that case, I have no idea what I'm going to find, and I just wait and see what I discover.

[00:27:43] The other situation is if I go to, and this is often usually when I'm traveling, but if I go to a bookstore and there's an event with a local author that's sitting at a table selling their book, I will often buy a copy to support local writers. And then I often don't know what I'm getting in that case, and it ends up going eventually to a little free library. And sometimes those are wins, and sometimes they are not at all, and that's okay, because I'm supporting local writers.

SHANNAN: In a percentage, how much of that happens for you out of the books that you do buy, percentage-wise? Do you know that?

HOLLY: I don't have that data, but I would guess it's actually a fairly high percentage because of the travel purchasing situation. And that also ties back a bit to Will's comment that those are books I could not easily acquire in any other context because they're either from an Australian publisher that doesn't distribute, or it would cost me $60 to have the book shipped to the US or whatever. So that's actually a pretty high percentage of my new book purchases. Or book purchases. Sometimes they are used.

[00:28:53] SHANNAN: Go ahead and tell us your other categories.

HOLLY: My other two categories. So a slight caveat is I used to buy digital books for my Kindle like it was going out of style, and since they've locked down all of their DRM things, I have not purchased any Kindle books since then because I object. And I'm still figuring out what my plan is for e-reading going forward other than Libby and my library.

But usually at the end of the year I go back through my five-star reads, and I look at that list and say, "Do I want any of these to exist in my permanent physical library?" Because most of the time those are books I've gotten through the library or some other transient context. And I will typically end up adding, depending on the year, maybe one to three of those to my library kind of for long-term that I think I would either want to read again or it's a favorite author that I'm kinda building my library or it just made a really, really strong impression on me.

[00:29:47] And then the last one is... well, I guess it's sort of twofold. I already kind of talked about books that I can't really get other places, and that also includes hard-to-find books in the US, it's not just internationally.

But the last category is what I call business expense books. So say I'm working on a book list for a post and I'm like, "Oh, I want to read these books to consider for this," if I buy those with my own money, I then count those as a business expense on my business ledger. I don't count those necessarily in the same way as I count personal books.

SHANNAN: I love the idea of going through the year and seeing the five-star reads that you had, and then saying, which ones do you want to add? I need to do that because I set a book budget for the year, y'all, and it's gone already. And I'm like, it's April. And we haven't made it any space. Now mind you, it's a very small budget, which is probably part of my problem, but I'm like, "It's already gone and we're already in April."

[00:31:03] LEIGH: Wait, does that factor in the stipend that we get? This is our great work perk.

SHANNAN: Yes. What Leigh is referring to is the great work perk that we have of a book stipend. It's not seasonally, I think, is more... is appropriate. No, that does not factor in. I am referring to my own personal dollars. And I had a number in my head, and it's gone. I'm like, this is a problem. Brigid-

LEIGH: But it's not because you still have some stipends coming your way.

SHANNAN: Well, I mean, I still...

LEIGH: So I mean, your personal may have run out, but...

SHANNAN: I actually just started over. I mean, I have money to buy books. I mean, that's what I'm going to do. But I'm like, "Okay, from now we're only going to spend this amount of money," which is part of the reason I wanted to have this conversation. Brigid.

[00:32:01] BRIGID: This has been fascinating. I wish everybody listening could see my face every time somebody has said something because I'm either shocked how close it is to what I do or how different, how different, you guys. So, first of all, when I said 14 books at the beginning, those were new books from a bookstore, new books. I did not include digital or audiobook. And I would say I buy about one audiobook and one Kindle book, or an e-book, not necessarily Kindle, because I do sometimes buy from bookshops, e-books.

Anyways, I usually buy about one a month of those. And the majority of the rest of my books buying is from used bookstores. I love a used book, or from the book sale at the library, my local library. Not just the big one they do every year, but they have a whole shelf. So I look at that shelf every time I go in.

[00:33:00] But here's where I'm different. I do not like buying a book that I've already read. That's very, very rare for me. I have kind of... you guys, I'm probably not going to surprise you. I have a hierarchy, a whole process of how I decide to buy a book, and it's like a pyramid. So it's, like everybody else, can I get it at the library? Because I would say the majority of my reads are from the library, whether they're in audio, e-format, or hardcover.

Second, it's... and I'm going to say sorry to all authors who do this, if you are writing about a British, Irish, South African, Nigerian, or Australian character, I'm listening to that in audio. I'm never going to buy it in hard copy. I'm sorry. I want to listen to those books be read to me in those accents. So that's number one. Now, does it have map-

LEIGH: That's not apology-worthy, though. You're still listening.

[00:33:59] BRIGID: I mean, I'm still consuming the book and I'm still reviewing it, but I will never buy it in hard copy. I will never. This is a daily thought of mine. Even at a library, if I see a hard copy of something that I'm interested in reading and it's got an Irish character, I'm like, "Nope, I'm going to be listening to that," so I'm going to have to go get it electronically.

Does it have maps? That's a big one. If it has maps, then yes, I'm more likely to buy it in print. Does it have recipes? I love a fiction that has recipes, so I like to own ones myself that have recipes in them.

LEIGH: And Brigid had a guest post along those lines that we can link to in the show notes.

BRIGID: I do. I love a book with recipes, and I love a novel with recipes. Cookbooks also, but I love a novel with them. Does it have illustrations like a graphic novel, or is it mixed media, like there's emails and messages or newspaper clippings printed within the book? Those I do like to buy a book that has that.

[00:35:04] Like Holly was saying, is it something hard to find? Is it an indie-published print, or is it from a place where I would normally never be able to get it while traveling? Because I do buy the majority of my books while traveling.

Then the next is I like a paperback. So I'd rather buy a paperback than a hard copy. And then is it poetry? Poetry I like to have a hard copy of that. And then I kind of have a very specific... is it written by these or is it part of this series? Is it written by Kerry Winfrey? Is it written by Rainbow Rowell? Is it part of the Empyrean series from Rebecca Yarros? And I say this not because I even really love those books, I'm okay with them. But you can listen to a bonus episode where Anne talks about the special editions and the industry insight, and she kind of tells a little bit of a story of how I accidentally bought a first edition painted edge Fourth Wing. And so now I have to buy all the first edition painted edge ones. I don't make those rules. But I got to.

[00:36:20] And then I really like fun copies of Anne of Green Gables. And then I also love the 81, 831 romances, so those are it.

But then lastly, this is lastly, if I still have gone through all of these and it doesn't quite fit, if it's a book that my mother-in-law or my mom would like to read after, I buy it in print. Because they love to read in print, and the majority of the books that they get in their hands that aren't used copies from used bookstores are books that I give them. "I read this, I think you'd love it." So that's usually…

SHANNAN: Now, are all of these things written down, Brigid? Do you literally have a checklist, when you look at the book and you go, "Check, check, no," or is this just mental?

BRIGID: I have a mental checklist, and I literally run through every single one of those depending on the book.

SHANNAN: Wow.

[00:37:13] BRIGID: And then I also do keep a notes app for very specific authors. One I didn't mention is Tessa Dare. I keep a very specific, do I have it? Have I read it? Here's what's the situa... is it signed? But no, I do have it written down now because I wanted to make sure I had it all copied down so I could tell y'all and not forget any of them. And it is now in my notes app. So if I ever forget it.

LEIGH: I have a notes app too for any book or author that I am looking for, especially when I'm at a used bookstore.

BRIGID: Oh, I also keep Leigh's. She didn't mention that, but I also keep Leigh's wants in my note app. Because I love hunting for used books, not just for myself. So I look for Leigh when I'm out and about.

LEIGH: And I have a couple of friends that I look for their stuff as well.

SHANNAN: So the list that you have in your app, is that a list of books, or is that a list of criteria that you're actually checking off?

[00:38:14] BRIGID: For me, it's books, and now I also have the criteria one, thanks to this recording.

SHANNAN: And you prepped the criteria because of this bonus. Leigh, is it just a list of books?

LEIGH: Just a list of books.

SHANNAN: Readers, y'all thought...

LEIGH: Oh, but I'll throw in...

SHANNAN: I mean, I thought that I would had overthought this.

LEIGH: No, this is not overthinking. This is because when I'm in a bookstore, I cannot remember all of the different books, because I... especially at McKay's. If you've ever been to a McKay's, it is a huge warehouse of a place. It can be overwhelming. And when I get in those stacks, I get very distracted and I can forget about especially the out-of-print ones that I don't necessarily remember offhand. I need to be able to look. And also any recent five-star books that I got from the library that I do want a copy in my home, a la Holly's approach.

[00:39:09] SHANNAN: I wasn't saying you were overthinking the reason why you had the list. It's just I was thinking, am I overthinking this process of trying to figure out what books I'm going to add and how I'm going to go about it? And as Anne would say, and Ginger also would say, "It's never just you."

LEIGH: Never just you.

SHANNAN: So I feel so much better about myself.

BRIGID: I feel like we're in good company with these, for sure.

LEIGH: Definitely.

SHANNAN: I have noticed something. I get put off by the plastic covers on library books recently. That is a recent thing. Is that just me?

BRIGID: They don't bother me.

LEIGH: Doesn't bother me.

BRIGID: But I've had other people say things. And I don't post a ton on my Instagram, but a lot of times if it's a book that I enjoyed from the library, I'll post a picture of it, and people have said something like, "Oh, that shiny library cover."

[00:40:05] HOLLY: I'm not a fan.

SHANNAN: You are not a fan.

BRIGID: You're not a fan.

HOLLY: I'm not a fan, no. Again. I pretty much only get digital, audio, or paperback from my library because I don't like the crinkly plastic cover.

SHANNAN: Once again, readers, it's not just me. So excited. Because I will not want to go to the library and get a book if it's in hardcover. I literally will be like, "Uh-uh, I don't want to," because I hate the way it... And it distorts how pretty it is, also. It feels like it doesn't give me that experience.

Now this is a recent phenomena since I started buying books, which probably happened in 2019-ish. So before then, I was a definite library user. And I think COVID tripped me up too because even though you could get books from the library eventually, I was like, "I don't know where this book has been." I'll just either do digital or buy it.

[00:41:05] HOLLY: I have a follow-up comment too, though.

BRIGID: When you are re...

HOLLY: Sorry. Sorry, Brigid. I was just saying I hate dust jackets in general. So even if I buy a hardcover of my own, the first thing I do is take the dust jacket off and put it somewhere else.

BRIGID: Why?

HOLLY: I can't read a book with a dust jacket on it.

BRIGID: That was literally my question, Holly. Of course that's... You stole the words right out of my mouth. Do you guys take the dust jackets off?

HOLLY: Never.

BRIGID: Because that's why I like paperbacks better, because I don't like dealing with, what am I going to do with this dust jacket?

HOLLY: I can't deal with it. It's distracting.

LEIGH: It just stays on.

HOLLY: It bothers me.

WILL: It's a jacket.

LEIGH: It's a jacket.

WILL: The book just wears it. It just stays on. You don't have to do anything with it. It just stays on the book.

BRIGID: I like my books naked.

HOLLY: Nope. Can't deal with it.

SHANNAN: So I have a question about that to Holly. Holly, what do you do with that? Do you literally have a bin full of dust jackets?

LEIGH: Do you like throw them away?

HOLLY: I just take it off when I'm reading it, and then once I'm not reading it, I put it back on.

LEIGH: Same.

HOLLY: ...and I put it on the shelf. I just can't have it on while I'm in the act of reading it.

BRIGID: This is the same. I think, Holly, this is a birthday twin thing because I have to take it off.

SHANNAN: This has been very informative

WILL: This was fascinating.

[00:42:10] SHANNAN: And fascinating. I am going to go and write down my rules and feel good about the Summer Reading Guide season and my new budget that I am starting over.

LEIGH: Oh, can I offer one tip for people if they don't have this already?

SHANNAN: Absolutely.

LEIGH: I recommend downloading Libib, L-I-B-I-B. It is an app, and you can scan the barcodes of your books, and so you will know exactly how many you have. And when you are in a bookstore, and you're like, "I really love this book, but do I have it?" I can open up my app, and I can type in the title or the author and see if I already own it or not, and then you don't have to buy any duplicates.

WILL: Oh, this is amazing.

LEIGH: There are other apps along those lines but Libib is the one that I've used for several years now.

WILL: We have bought duplicates at the same used book sale. So we didn't have it at home, but then we came home with two copies. It's like, I don't know there's any preventing duplicates. But yeah.

[00:43:05] SHANNAN: Who else intentionally buys duplicates?

WILL: Intentionally?

LEIGH: Well, I do buy duplicates of some things.

SHANNAN: Yes.

WILL: Certain books.

SHANNAN: I know our book club community manager, Ginger, has several copies of certain books. Does anyone else do that?

BRIGID: I only do it for Anne of Green Gables.

LEIGH: A Prayer for Owen Meany, Persuasion, and then Sierra Simone is one of my favorite romance authors, and I have multiple copies, multiple editions of hers. But I don't consider them to be duplicates.

WILL: Because you're looking for...

LEIGH: Because they're different editions.

WILL: Different editions, yes.

SHANNAN: You collect the editions.

BRIGID. Same. Same, yeah.

SHANNAN: Fascinating.

WILL: There are a couple books I would snap up any time I see them, just because I don't come across them and I want people to have them and whatever.

SHANNAN: So you're buying them to give them away maybe?

WILL: Yeah.

SHANNAN: Okay.

[00:43:56] WILL: I'm kind of stingy about loaning out my books. So if there's a book I don't want to let go of, but I'm like, "Oh, I want to recommend this to people," but I don't actually want to give them mine because who knows what's going to happen.

LEIGH: Yeah, I do the same thing. A friend who I am still friends with, and that should tell you how much I love her, she dropped one of my books in the pool, and I have not loaned any books to anyone since. She did pay to replace it.

SHANNAN: So sad.

LEIGH: But I was like, never, never again. I know everyone's probably on the floor right now in horror.

SHANNAN: Horror. Horror.

LEIGH: This was 20 years ago. And we're still friends, but I was very angry at the time.

SHANNAN: Again, this has been so helpful to me. Thank you so much. And I know it is going to be helpful and fun for our listeners. Will, Holly, Leigh, Brigid, thank you for joining me.

[00:45:00] ANNE: For more from our Modern Mrs. Darcy and What Should I Read Next? team, be sure to check out our bonus episodes archive on Patreon, or explore our team members collection there.

We are wrapping up today by sharing a One Great Book bonus episode. In these periodic bonuses, I, or sometimes a member of our team, tell you all about a book I love from my own shelves, usually in about 10 minutes or less. This collection features a range of titles from contemporary fiction to classics, middle grade to nonfiction, genres of all sorts, everything in between.

In the episode we're sharing today, I'm discussing a favorite title that's been recommended and discussed here on What Should I Read Next? several times at this point. That is The Transit of Venus by Shirley Hazzard.

[00:45:46] Hey readers. It's Anne, and I'm here with a bonus of One Great Book. "No one should have to read it for the first time." Perhaps that's not the kind of comment you'd expect to hear about an award-winning novel, one that contemporary writers have referred to as a self-contained masterclass in writing fiction.

For example, Lauren Groff says she reads it once a year, and has for nearly two decades now, because these pages teach her everything she needs to know about writing a novel. And yet, these words were famously spoken by Shirley Hazzard's husband about what is arguably her best novel, The Transit of Venus. No one should have to read it for the first time.

As someone who picked up the book after hearing trusted readers and writers rave about it, I see his point. I picked up my copy several years ago expecting only good things, wholly unaware of her husband's warning. It is true, there is a precipitous amount of foreshadowing in this book.

[00:46:46] In fact, the book's very first line, "By nightfall the headlines would be reporting devastation," is a decent summary of the entire story for the rereader. What's more, Hazzard tells us plainly in the opening pages that one of her characters will die, and how that happens, and yet it means absolutely nothing to the first-time reader, since they are not yet acquainted with the man or any other character.

Perhaps such things are exactly what Hazzard's husband had in mind. I don't know. But for me, the vexation of my first read was that I just didn't get it. I did not understand the story or why it mattered. The writing was gorgeous, sure. Hazzard famously revised each page upwards of 20 times in order to get each word to fall in exactly the right place. She worked on this novel for 10 years, but I was bored. I didn't know what was happening. I could not keep the characters straight, and I didn't even care.

[00:47:40] But then, right about page 75, it clicked, and by the time I reached the spectacular and spectacularly devastating ending, I was ready to flip to the beginning and start again right then, because I knew this time I'd be riveted.

The Transit of Venus takes its title from a rare astronomical event of the same name. In fact, it's one of the rarest astronomical phenomena that can be predicted. A transit is similar to an eclipse, and observed from Earth, it looks like a small black dot on the face of the sun as Venus passes between it and Earth.

The pattern isn't complicated, but it is a little tricky to describe. The complete pattern repeats every 243 years and includes two pairs of transits eight years apart. So there will be a pair of transits, a transit being that eclipse-like passing of Venus in front of the sun, a pair of transits eight years apart, and then a gap of 121 years, and then another pair of transits eight years apart, that time followed by a gap of 105 years.

[00:48:48] If you're listening to this and you didn't observe the last transit, you have missed it for a lifetime. The last transits took place in 2004 and then 2012, and we won't see the next pair, well, no one will see the next pair until 2117 and 2125. It comes as no surprise to hear then that Hazzard's novel is laden with pairs of things: a pair of sisters, a pair of lovers, of sickly sons, of watches and umbrellas that carry great meaning in the story.

This is a story of missed connections, of missing the point, of meeting the right person but at the wrong moment, of not realizing key truths until it is too late. The plot by which Hazzard explores her really philosophy of living, I think, is this. Sisters Caroline and Grace Bell are orphaned in Australia when their parents die in a ferry accident, and they subsequently travel to England to make a new life under the guardianship of their oppressive and soul-crushing half-sister, Dora, which Hazzard based largely on her own mother. That is another story.

[00:49:54] Grace is fair-haired and complacent, pleasing, and soon enough she marries a wealthy bureaucrat who may be smug but is absolutely smitten with her. Caro is dark-haired and independent-minded, and a kind astronomer is smitten with her, but she has already fallen in love with a dashing playwright who is married but so charismatic, Caro fails to recognize how horribly he treats others, including her.

The story follows these characters for decades, well into their middle age, and we see the choices they make and where those choices lead them. All the while, Hazzard is showing us what she believes to be true about romantic and filial love, about the nature of intimacy, and about power dynamics in relationships.

I read this novel for the first time at age 40, and I never had the opportunity to learn what I would have thought of it had I read it for the first time at 18 or 25 or 32. But I do suspect it's one of those novels, like Crossing to Safety, which I love, that is best appreciated at a certain age. Readers, I would love to hear your thoughts on this.

[00:50:59] The novel may not be hospitable to first-time readers of any age, but I sincerely hope and have reason to think that those who persevere will find it worth their while. Not that they will love it necessarily, but that they will appreciate the scope of Hazzard's story and her skill in its telling.

It would be a joy, I mean, a nerdy joy, but a joy, to excavate its pages in a book club or English seminar, to tease out every moment of that foreshadowing we talked about, to explore the meaning of that spectacularly devastating ending for hours.

I do find this is one of those books that is near impossible to adequately discuss without acknowledging the ending aloud, as it colors the meaning of every word in the novel. The first read may not be easy, but many find it to be a hard novel to read only once.

Calvino once defined a classic as a book that is never finished saying what it has to say. Great works not only bear up under, but improve upon repeated rereadings, revealing new things to the reader each time. I think we can safely say The Transit of Venus is one of them, and for that reason, I would call it one great book.

[00:52:09] We started today by quoting Shirley Hazzard's husband, and I'd love to tell you a little about her personal life before I sign off. That personal biography is charming and way more fascinating on first encounter than the first seventy-five pages of The Transit of Venus, if I can say such a thing. I think I can.

That husband I keep quoting is Francis Steegmuller, a novelist himself, as well as a translator of Flaubert, biographer of a handful of French writers, including Jean Cocteau. They met at a party hosted by Muriel Spark that was attended by Shirley Hazzard's numerous friends from The New Yorker, who published her nonfiction for years, which was largely based on her experiences working at the UN, a job incidentally, that she abhorred. She also wrote several nonfiction book-length works about that time in her life that are critical of the UN, but what I want you to imagine here is the circles she was running in.

[00:53:00] Another lifetime close friend was Graham Greene, but she met him in an altogether different manner, far from New York parties. I'm going to quote Hazzard's obituary from The Guardian to tell what happened in an Italian cafe in the late 1960s. "Hazzard was completing the Times crossword while sipping coffee in the Piazzetta, the central square on the isle of Capri one morning, when she recognized a man at the neighboring table as Graham Greene. In the course of conversation, he began to quote a poem by Browning, but stalled at the last line. Hazzard supplied it." The poem was The Lost Mistress. The line, "Or so very little longer," and the ensuing friendship lasted a lifetime. Hazzard even wrote a short memoir called Greene on Capri, which I haven't yet read, but hear from some of the same people who loved Transit, that it is excellent in its own right, and particularly as a window into the rest of her life, her non-writing life.

[00:53:57] Finally, I have to confess the reason Shirley Hazzard has been top of mind for me all summer, and bundle that reason with a book recommendation. When I was in Paris in July, I read Antoine Laurain's new release, An Astronomer in Love, which I just found out the transliterated title would be The Whims of the Stars, which I just love.

This book was translated from the French by Louise Rogers Lalaurie and Megan Jones, and published here in the US on June 27th of this year. But it was published back in early 2022 in France. The transit of Venus sits right at the center of that story. You can even see the astronomical occurrence depicted on its cover.

The novel unfolds in two timelines. In 1760, King Louis XV's astronomer sets sail for India, where he hopes to observe a transit while he can. The conditions have to be perfect, or he'll get one more shot in eight years, and then that's it. He'll be dead before the next one occurs. So 250 years after King Louis XV's astronomer sets sail, in Paris, a real estate agent finds himself in possession of this same astronomer's telescope, which is soon to bring both chaos and new love into his life.

[00:55:08] I talked about reading this book and reading it in Paris, and why it was the perfect book for that leg of our trip, in the recent episode I recorded with Will about our summer travels. That's number 389, and it's called Anne and Will's European Reading Adventures.

Hey, readers. I hope you enjoyed this sampler selection of Patreon bonus episodes. A quick heads-up that we're taking next week off before returning to your podcast app with a brand-new episode in the beginning of November. But we will have a brand-new Patreon bonus episode next Friday, so come on over and join us in Patreon if you can't wait for new book talk in your earbuds.

Find the full list of titles we talked about today at whatshouldireadnextpodcast.com. And make sure you're following along in Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Overcast, Pocket Casts, wherever you get your podcasts.

Follow our show on Instagram @whatshouldireadnext. We love to see what you're reading lately and the titles you've discovered thanks to our show.

[00:56:08] And make sure you're on our email list for regular updates on new episodes, merch, events, and more. Sign up at whatshouldireadnextpodcast.com/newsletter.

Thanks to the people who make this show happen. What Should I Read Next? is created each week by executive producer Will Bogel, Media production specialist Holly Wielkoszewski, social media manager and editor Leigh Kramer, community coordinator Brigid Misselhorn, community manager Shannan Malone, and our whole team at What Should I Read Next? and Modern Mrs. Darcy HQ. Plus the audio whizzes at Studio D Podcast Production.

Readers, that's it for this episode. Thanks so much for listening. And as Rainer Maria Rilke said, "Ah, how good it is to be among people who are reading." Happy reading, everyone.

• Tranquility by Tuesday by Laura Vanderkam
• Head Over Heels by Hannah Orenstein
• Stone Cold Fox by Rachel Koller Croft
• Lessons in Chemistry by Bonnie Garmus
• The Cartographers by Peng Shepherd
• Smitten Kitchen Keepers by Deb Perlman
• These Precious Days by Ann Patchett
• The Light We Carry by Michelle Obama
• The Paris Match by Kate Clayborn
• Anne of Green Gables by L.M. Montgomery
• 831 Romances
• A Prayer for Owen Meany by John Irving
• Persuasion by Jane Austen
• The Transit of Venus by Shirley Hazzard
• Crossing to Safety by Wallace Stegner
• An Astronomer in Love by Antoine Laurain
• Greene on Capri by Shirley Hazzard

• WSIRN Ep. 369: State of the Bookstore
• Fabled Bookshop in Waco, TX
• WSIRN Ep. 359: Making big reading goals a reality 
• Confessions of a former book hoarder
• Buy a book, read a book
• The Novel Neighbor
• McKay Used Books
• Thrift Books
• 8 unexpected novels that feature recipes (that aren’t food fiction)
• Industry Insights: Special Editions
• Libib App
• Shirley Hazzard’s obituary in The Guardian
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Today I’m joined by two readers to discuss what it means to be well-read these days, what that phrase even means, and why it’s a concept worth exploring.

Rebecca Schinsky and Jeff O’Neal of the Book Riot podcast Zero to Well-Read are my guests today. Together we’ll dive into this conversation, exploring how each of us thinks about what it means to be well-read, and how our personal working definitions have evolved over the years.

The reading life is a journey, and today’s conversation goes beyond what being well-read and reading well means: it also explores the ways that deciding what well-read means to you can help you cultivate readerly satisfaction, combat distraction, and even build community.

We’d love to hear your thoughts on what it means to read well or be well-read: please share a comment below.

Our new Patreon Ad-Free Episodes tier makes it possible for you to receive ad-free episodes right in your regular podcast feed for just $5 a month. We’d love to have you join us on Patreon: find out more and sign up today at patreon.com/whatshouldireadnext.

REBECCA SCHINSKY: Now we're committed to the metaphor, Anne.

JEFF O'NEAL: I'm the [panelist?] out of it. I'm working on something. You guys keep going. I'll figure this out.

ANNE BOGEL: Okay, we're just whiteboarding this as we go.

Hey readers, I'm Anne Bogel, and this is What Should I Read Next?. Welcome to the show that's dedicated to answering the question that plagues every reader, what should I read next? We don't get bossy on this show. What we will do here is give you the information you need to choose your next read.

Today, I'm joined by two readers to discuss what it means to be well-read these days. Is that even a thing, what that phrase might mean, what the idea brings to our own reading lives and why it's worth exploring.

[00:00:45] Readers, we know many of you love to tune in each week to this podcast, and we're thrilled to now offer the option for an ad-free What Should I Read Next? experience. Our new Patreon ad-free episodes tier makes it possible for you to get ad-free episodes right in your regular podcast feed for five bucks a month.

Your monthly or annual Patreon subscription to our new ad-free tier makes it possible for us to offer this alternative, and we have already heard and seen the enthusiasm from many listeners about this new option. We are so glad it's working for you.

To get in on the ad-free action, visit our Patreon page. You will see three options there to join us. Our ad-free episodes tier, which includes ad-free episodes every week, just like it says. Our bonuses and events tier, which hasn't changed a bit. This tier includes our Friday bonus episodes and our seasonal events like Fall Book Preview and Summer Reading Guide, but not ad-free episodes. Finally, our new Patreon all-inclusive tier, which is priced at 10 bucks a month and gives you access to everything we do on Patreon.

[00:01:46] Here's a quick tip. If you join Patreon via the app on your Apple device, the pricing you see will be higher. The reason is Apple charges a commission and we can't control that or disable it. It does not come to us. It goes to Apple. So keep that in mind when you're deciding how and when to sign up. We'd love to have you join us on Patreon at whatever tier suits you best right now. Find out more and sign up today at patreon.com/whatshouldIreadnext. That's patreon.com/whatshouldIreadnext.

Readers, today I'm joined in conversation by Rebecca Schinsky and Jeff O'Neal of the Book Riot Podcast: Zero to Well-Read, as we take a deep dive into what that phrase means. This is a topic I've been thinking about a lot in recent years, and I'm thrilled to host this conversation today.

[00:02:34] After hearing a bit about Rebecca, Jeff, and their respective reading lives, we explore how each of us thinks about what it means to be well-read and how our personal working definitions have evolved through the years. We reflect on the idea of literature as an ongoing conversation, what it means to feel at home in that world of literature, and how reading well and being well-read are related but distinct concepts. Plus, we share plenty of favorite titles along the way.

The reading life is a journey, and one I would say almost all of us here are on together. We're not just talking about what being well-read and reading well means to us or what they mean abstractly, but also about how deciding what well-read means to you and what kind of vision you have for your own reading life can help you cultivate readerly satisfaction, combat distraction, choose what to read next, and even build community. This is a great conversation with something for every reader. Let's get to it.

Jeff and Rebecca, welcome to the show.

REBECCA: Thanks so much for having us.

JEFF: Thank you for having us, Anne.

[00:03:37] ANNE: Oh, the pleasure is mine. Thanks for coming on. The idea of being well-read is a concept that we love to talk about in our community, and I've been thinking about a lot lately, so I'm so excited to have this conversation with you all today. I'm sure some of our audience members are regular listeners of yours, but others are meeting you for the first time, so would you just give us a little glimpse of who you are? We do this with all our guests. Rebecca, start us off.

REBECCA: Sure. I'm Rebecca Schinsky. I'm the chief of staff at Book Riot. Jeff and I have been hosting the Book Riot podcast together for 14 years, I believe, where we talk about news in the world of books and reading, and just a little bit over a year ago, we launched Zero to Well-Read, which we're here to talk about with you today.

My background was originally I intended to be a psychologist, but I dropped out of grad school and became a bookseller just at the right time, and around 2008, I started a book blog, which is how I eventually met Jeff online in the days when Twitter was actually good.

ANNE: Oh, when Twitter was good.

[00:04:34] REBECCA: It was a beautiful and brief time.

JEFF: That's how old we are, Rebecca. That's how long we've been doing this, Anne, is when Twitter was good.

ANNE: And I told my mom I was going to meet somebody I'd met on Twitter, and she was afraid I was going to get murdered.

REBECCA: Totally remember that.

ANNE: But it was good then.

JEFF: It was good.

REBECCA: It was good. We met in person for the first time at a Book Expo America, back also when that was a thing, before BookCon.

ANNE: What year was I there? Did I pass you in the hallway?

REBECCA: 2010, I believe. I think it was the spring of 2010.

ANNE: I think 2015 was the first year I went.

REBECCA: Book Riot launched in 2011, so we've been working together ever since, talking about what's happening in the world of books and reading, new releases, recommendations, all the things that we're passionate about. Book Riot tries to cover all of the areas of the reading world, so you get the literary fiction, but also all the genres, categories, young adult, all that good stuff.

So I'm mostly a literary fiction reader. I read a lot of also narrative nonfiction. I love a memoir, celebrity memoirs, great memoirs by people you've never heard of, the whole gamut. That's me.

ANNE: All right, Jeff, tell us about yourself.

[00:05:36] JEFF: I'm an old academic by trade, believe it or not, a long time ago. I started my book blog in 2010 largely so I could write about books in a way that wasn't happening in my formal education, colloquially and with a certain passion and personality and individuality that I was really missing. I met Rebecca and a bunch of other people and was looking to get out of academia, frankly. And my friend Clint Cabler had been reading both of our blogs. I had been writing every year to my friends and family at 10 books to read from this year, as a Christmas card. And Clint and I met in college, and he had been reading the books that I was recommending every year, including Bolaño's 2666, which he won't let me let down.

REBECCA: You will never live that down.

JEFF: I'm never going to live that down. So I started writing that blog, met some other people. Clint was coming off another gig, and he's like, "You know, what if we got some of these people together and put them under one banner?" Because there's a different kind of energy around book blogging. It's hard to remember now in this era, but it was the New York Times and book review sections in 2010 to 2011.

[00:06:38] And people weren't taking romance seriously in the way they're taking it now, or a young adult or even popular fiction of that time. And we did. So we gave ourselves six months to see if it was a thing, and it's become Book Riot state and became a thing.

At those old days, we had, what, three to five posts on the site. Rebecca, and I was writing two to four of them in any given day between my teaching gigs and having two young children. But eventually it gained steam, and I could slough off the teaching that I was doing and take it on full time. So it's been terrific. So it's been a real thrill. And I'm grateful to Rebecca and everyone that's been with us for a long time. We've had readers who have been there since the very beginning.

This particular show, to segue, is something I think Rebecca and I have been germinating on for a while, where there's all kinds of readers, but the core of what someone thinks about when they think about reading is the great books. And we can talk about what the great books are, aren't or should or should not be. But people want to know what they are, want to have read them, or want to have some experience with them. And yet there are so many, and it can feel so daunting. Why is today the day I'm going to pick up Dostoyevsky? Today, literally today, why would I go pick up Dostoyevsky even if I wanted to?

[00:07:43] One thing Rebecca and I found, too, is we like talking to each other about books. We do book clubs on individual, more contemporary fiction on the regular show, kind of as a one-off. But we had this feeling that there was something there for a longer-form show — our shows are about 90 minutes, typically — that is for all kinds of readers, whether you've read the book recently or you're never going to read the book but you know something about it that's entertaining and educational. But it's also about ideas, it's interpretive at the same time.

So you're going to know a little something about Cormac McCarthy or you're going to know something about Toni Morrison in the course of the show and what that book is about in the publication history. But then you'll get into part English class, part book club, I believe is the phrase Rebecca came up with that we use a lot of the time because people do want to have that kind of experience around a book that can sustain that kind of a conversation, but they don't have time to take a community college class. Their book club may not pick up these kind of books unless you find yourself in a classics or great books kind of a situation.

[00:08:45] We don't limit it to just great books. We're talking about contemporary things, things that maybe were influential in their own way. I picked up Twilight for the first time in the course of this so that we could talk about the Twilight phenomenon as part of our reading. But people want to be... they want to strive towards the thing they understand to be well-read. I know we're going to talk about that contract there today. But I found too that in our algorithmic-driven universe there's something really cool about reading something that's not trending and talking about it in a long-form way that's not amenable to getting sliced up into 30 or 60-second bits.

REBECCA: I think the timing has been really important for us. That we were feeling it individually and we were hearing it from readers, from book people. That they were feeling like their attention spans were fragmented. They were having a hard time connecting deeply to books. They wanted to be doing less scrolling. They wanted to be reading deeply. And we wanted to respond to that. And frankly, we wanted to give it to ourselves an excuse to really sink deeply into books, either books that we had loved a long time, books that one of us has loved and the other one has never read, books that we've been wanting to approach but we're just never going to have the excuse in our busy personal and professional lives to get to. But it felt like the right moment for exploring this kind of reading together.

[00:10:04] ANNE: I'm chuckling because from where I sit, I well understand how the work you're doing publicly really impacts the way you read privately.

REBECCA: Yes, I bet you do, Anne.

ANNE: Jeff, you use the word striving and thinking about reading a certain kind of books. But first I want to get more of a... I don't know if it's a starting point or a baseline exactly, is a vital information for the composite picture of Jeff and Rebecca as individuals, as readers. On What Should I Read Next? We are always asking our guests to share three books they love. Without explanation, without qualification, not necessarily the top three, but three books you love for your own reasons. And I'd love to hear y’all’s. Who wants to go first?

REBECCA: Just the list, not a lot of-

ANNE: Tell us a little bit. Tell us three sentences about each.

JEFF: This is the hardest thing I've ever been asked, Anne, just to say the books and say nothing about them. Didn't you just hear what we were doing on Zero to...? Okay, I got you.

[00:10:58] ANNE: Well, see what I tell myself to make myself feel better when I have to answer a question like this is the answer could be different tomorrow or next month or actually 20 minutes from now. It could be different after you got hungry or had a snack or went for a run or I don't know, had a good night's sleep. Looked at your bookshelves and were reminded of something.

REBECCA: I've made this list like seven times over the last 24 hours since you told us you were going to ask us this today. And I was like, should it be faves? Should it be things I loved recently that were surprising to me? And I think I'm going to go that route. Jeff and I are on the record in so many places about our longtime favorites that I love to be surprised by a book.

I think three that really did that for me in the last few years were The Fraud by Zadie Smith. I almost didn't read it because the pitch really put me off. And thank goodness that Jeff sent me a text that was basically like, "Bro, don't miss this." And we read it, we book clubbed it together.

[00:11:58] Matrix by Lauren Groff. I love Lauren Groff, but I was like, "I don't know, nuns in the 13th century?" Groff tends to write in, or had been tending to write in really contemporary moments. And I'm so glad that I picked that up. I thought it was the beginning of a new era and a very exciting era of Lauren Groff.

And The Road by Cormac McCarthy was recently my most surprising and reading experience of the last several years. I had never read it. We just read it together for Zero to Well-Read. And the gap between what I expected the book to be and what it actually was and how much it moved me was just... there was an ocean of difference between my expectations and what the book turned out to be. And there's almost nothing better in a reading life, I think, than that kind of discovery.

JEFF: I'm going to go... there's so many, as you could say, but these maybe are more specific and revealing about me. I'll go with something that I first read when it was out of print because I was actually reading the wrong book, Anne.

REBECCA: You gotta tell them this story.

ANNE: You gotta tell us what happened.

[00:13:01] JEFF: Rebecca knows which book. It's The Orchard by Adele Crockett Robertson. It's a memoir written by Adele Crockett Robertson who was managing her family's apple orchard during the Depression. She was actually working as a young journalist when her father became ill, and the family apple orchard maybe was going to fall out of the family. So she leaves her job, I believe it was in Boston, moves up back to the family farm in Maine, and tries to make a go of running an apple orchard. So I love a memoir about a job. That's something I just really enjoy. It's one of the great ways of finding out about the world is to someone who can write a sentence and then also tell you about how the thing is done.

But there's a meta story around it too where she wrote this thing and then put it under her bed. And not until she died did her daughter discover this whole story and the manuscript. So then she published it later ex post facto. Holt was the original publisher. Then it went out of print for a while and now it's back in print. I'm thrilled to say, but you can find it wherever you can get used books. You can find a new one too if you're out there looking for it.

[00:14:01] I don't know if there's an audio. We talked about this with you before, Anne, that I love a memoir on audio specifically. I did this in print. I love the story. I thought it was beautiful writing in a really tender story, and I love the meta story about it. I like a meta story. I like a book about reading. I like to know things about the people. So that one's fascinating too.

The book that I was probably the most blown away by the last few years is Solito by Javier Zamora, which is his chronicle of migrating from South America to the U.S. as I believe eight or nine. Do you guys remember? He was eight or nine years old.

REBECCA: He was really young.

JEFF: Really young.

REBECCA: Before teenage years, for sure.

JEFF: Yeah, before teenage years. And he grew up to become a poet, and this was his memoir of that time. Told with a beautiful unadornment where he really lets the bare experience of the story tell the story. A remarkable restraint for a poet, though I guess one thing poetry is about is restraint to some degree. But I think about that book a lot. I've recommended it a lot.

[00:15:07] And then Rebecca's also heard it, and listeners of our show have heard me say my pick for the book of the 20th century in America at least is Invisible Man by Ralph Ellison. It does all the things to use a contemporary description. It is a synthesis of his own life's work. His own backstory about it is fascinating. But the story of a young Black man trying to make in his world. It's a bildungsroman. It's a roman à clef. It's a satire. It's a parody. It's a horror movie. It's social satire. It's a political novel and it's avant-garde art writing all right into one. It is the American odyssey/inferno that really is delving into the great American political question of: how do we think about race and how do we deal with it?

Someday we'll get to it on Zero to Well-Read. We really have to eat our Wheaties because I find it so difficult... I feel like I'm ever doing it justice even in talking about it for 30 seconds. So those are my three.

ANNE: All right, you thought that was a difficult question, but I would love to hear, why do you read? When you pick up a book, what are you looking for? And not looking for an exhaustive answer, but just give us a glimpse of what you find in books and reading that you don't find elsewhere or that you want more of from your books and reading.

JEFF: I'll go first.

[00:16:17] REBECCA: We're just going to stare each other down until one of us goes first.

JEFF: I think one of the reasons we've podcasted together for so long is I think we're looking for a similar thing so maybe we can improvise and go back and forth here a little bit. But the world is so rich, Anne. It's a big world out there, but it's difficult to experience much of it, any of it, even if you're a big traveler like Rebecca is. And even if you do, the interior of other people's lives is largely inaccessible to you, even for people you know quite well.

To my mind, there is no art form like books for getting inside the interior of another person. We just don't have access to it in any different kind of way. So that when you read, you are really doing emotional education, as Susan Sontag described reading. You are getting a sense of how other people think and feel even if there's fictional because even that fictionality is, to use Alison's phrase, it's transmuted through the alembic of the writer's genius into something that we can understand.

[00:17:13] It's kinda like Neo plugging that thing into the back of his head in the Matrix and learning how to be a helicopter pilot. That's the closest we have. I could never be an orchard keeper during the Great Depression. But if I read a really good memoir about it, I sort of was maybe for a little while or as close as I'm ever going to get. And I find that to be as rich of a way of encountering the world as is available to us here on this mortal coil. So that's me.

REBECCA: I think similarly for me. Obviously, everyone who reads reads for multiple reasons. There are moments in my reading life that are about entertainment. There are moments that are about escape. But it's mostly I want something new and alive and transcendent. Like Jeff is talking about, a book that gives me a new lens on the world or on what it means to be a person on the varieties of experience and how we relate to and understand each other, and those moments of... I keep describing them to Jeff on the show lately. It's like, well, I just want to lean back and throw my hands in the air, be like, Art. You know, where you read something that is so moving that you can't believe that someone was able to actually put words to that part of the human experience or to capture this feeling that you've had that you could never articulate, but you thought maybe you were the only one who felt that way or thought that way, but an author is able to articulate it. That both reflection of the experience and the opening of the lens to... there are so many other ways that people are in the world and so many experiences.

[00:18:52] And I think also just the consistency of the human experience has been really validating to read as we've done this show and gone back into great books from hundreds and hundreds of years ago to be like, oh, we've been worried about the same things. People are always worried about the same things. And it's, can I connect? Do other people understand me? Am I good? And will my life have had meaning? And that those through lines are in almost every work of art, but that they come across... they can be expressed in so many different ways is really exciting to me.

ANNE: I'm jotting down how I love books that both express how I know it to be in the world, but also help me discover what it could be like to be in the world or what it's like for other people. So we have the idea of well-read lingering out there on the horizon and your show is called Zero to Well-Read. And I want to talk about both those elements, the zero and also the well-read.

[00:19:50] One of the reasons I was so excited to talk to you all is in our spaces, like What Should I Read Next?, Modern Mrs Darcy Book Club, on the blog, so many of us are clearly captivated by: what does it mean? Is it true today? What does it look like? Am I well-read? How can I be well? When I say I'm well-read, what am I even saying? And there's so much to discuss there and discover, but I'd love to know what do you find interesting about this idea? What makes you think, yes, let's talk about that for hundreds of hours on a podcast for years.

JEFF: I think for me... maybe a little bit origin story about the idea for the show that goes back to, I wrote this post a while ago and it did really well on the site. And I think it was called Zero to Well-Read, Rebecca. Is that what it was called, the actual post?

REBECCA: It was Zero to Well-Read in a Hundred Books. And I think the setup was you could be like an alien who landed here.

[00:20:43] JEFF: If they came down today and they wanted to be well-read, and they could only read a hundred books, here are the books. These would be my picks. This is not definitive. I'm just one person. But that was the thought exercise. I think inherent in that, you can see the tensions within the idea of Zero to Well-Read or the idea of being well-read because a hundred... some people would say that's way too many and some people are going to say you're not even starting. Right? So I think the breadth of people's own definitions of it is part of the game.

I'd also like to distinguish, if I can, between being well-read and reading well. I think those are connected, but maybe distinct kinds of ideas. If you have never read a book at all, let's say you're starting to, you are this alien who happens to know English or it's something that can be translated into the language you speak from world literature, you're not going to be well-read. But you can start reading well today.

[00:21:31] And that's one thing Rebecca and I are trying to do for ourselves and maybe model a little bit is what does it mean to read well? Because that's the yellow brick road to this mythical Oz of being well-read is to read well, to read with attention, to know something about literary history, to know something about the author, to have some felicity with understanding how literature can work, what to look for, to pay close attention to specifics, to also look at themes.

I think you can probably get a primer in how to read a book and start reading better, and reading well in an hour or two wouldn't take that much time. So that's not the problem. The problem is doing it while you're actually reading, right? How are you approaching these books you're reading?

There are certain kinds of books that we read because we're trying to pass 90 minutes waiting for a plane. That's a great use of books, wonderful use of books. That's not what I'm looking for most of the time for me. And you can get that feeling Rebecca had of throwing your head back and saying, "All right, and that's wonderful." But also, I think you want to take some of that with you to understand that something like what went into it, because it's not magic, believe it or not. There's this "books are magic" thing, which I understand why people say that, but this is the work of humans trying to make something for other humans in a long line of people making things for other humans.

[00:22:41] And having some sense of that history helps you understand and get more out of. And that's the ultimate goal for me. It's not that you're ticking off some box at your A-levels at Oxford. It's that you yourself are getting more out of your reading experience. And whatever that more looks like can be different.

And if you're the kind of reader that I am and Rebecca is, and it sounds like you are at least some of the time, and you can tell me if I'm wrong, is you want to feel connected to the great big whatever, right? And that is enriched by knowing how the thing is made, and what in that sequence of words you're reading one after another contributes to the making of that thing.

I think it's actually a bit flipping rather than a specific series of practices to try to read well. I don't think you're going to go a checklist, like check your oil, check your temperature gauge, all that. It's more of a "I'm going to read with a different kind of eye where I'm interested in looking at this specifically, looking at details and seeing how they comprise the whole and what it does to me and what my reaction to them are". So that's reading well. I guess maybe I'll throw it to Rebecca to talk about the latent anxiety people have about-

[00:23:41] REBECCA: We hear about this from several angles. And for me personally, what's interesting about the idea of well-read is very much that it's a journey and not a destination. Even the title of the show is kind of a joke because there's never a day that the trophy descends from the heavens and they're like, "Jeff O'Neill, you've done it. Now you're well read. The race is over." Someday, maybe on the next anniversary of the show, I'll send you a trophy.

And there's this, I guess to pull Jeff's word from earlier, striving is, I think, part of it for some people. For me, what's interesting is seeing the ways that the great books are connected to each other and the iterations of literature over time. That everyone refers to the Greeks. Everybody refers to Shakespeare. When you pick up The Secret History by Donna Tartt, which is only like 30 years old, not even 30 years old, she's referring to everybody. And that book is the OG of dark academia. It's not a big, classic, super difficult work. But that, quote unquote, serious literature builds on itself and that the writers are in conversation with each other.

[00:24:56] Toni Morrison was in conversation with Faulkner. Zora Neale Hurston and Richard Wright are in conversation with each other. Hemingway and Fitzgerald are in conversation with each other. A lot of people writing today are in conversation with those guys. And it enriches the reading experience to pick up those references and to see the scaffolding behind everything.

The anxiety that we hear from readers is that, what if I go to a cocktail party someday and people want to know my take on Dostoyevsky? This is the joke we make. That doesn't really exist, but people feel that way. Or that in the comics world, they would joke about it as "name five Robins". It's like, "Oh, you're into comics, name five of the Robins." These tests don't really exist, but readers feel like they do. And we want to help fill in those gaps for people. You want to understand why this book was a big deal or why it's important.

But we also get messages from the flip side of people who are like, "Well-read isn't a thing. And anybody who cares about it is a total snob." I think that that comes from this literary insecurity that you're talking about as well. There's not a moral valence to reading the great books that I spent last week reading, I don't know, East of Eden. It doesn't make me a better person than someone who has been reading popular hits or who reads a lot of genres.

[00:26:16] But there is a social commentary that people ascribe to the idea of being well-read. And they think that maybe if you care about being well-read, you're inherently judging their reading choices. And we are actively working against that. Read whatever you want. You don't have to care about being well-read in our definition of it.

And there are many areas of the reading world where we're not well-read. Neither of us is an expert on science fiction or fantasy or horror. There are many corners where we are... actually we are conversant in a couple of corners. We are not conversant in most of the corners. And I think that's true for anyone, anybody who has their pockets of reading interest, even any experts, that we're trying to say, "Okay, so if you're interested in reading in this particular way, we want to talk about the great books, but we also want to help you be conversant in pop culture phenomena."

[00:27:07] Like Jeff was saying, we've covered Twilight. Right now we're reading The Shining by Stephen King. We will do some of those big pop culture hits that have been important to readers along the way. That's part of being conversant in the literary landscape as well.

ANNE: Now, I've heard you say great books a couple of times. I hate to ask this question, but we have to, as a point for conversation. And readers, I just want to say, I hear from a lot of you that you want to know definitions of things and how they work. And there are no answers from the sky, from on high for so many of these questions. But there are interesting topics where we can define things as a starting point to discuss them.

So I'd love to hear y'all's working definition of what it means to be well-read. And in our conversations, among the readers I know and my team and even y'alls, because I was on Jeff and Rebecca's podcast, we'll make sure that you have links to each show available to you, I've been thinking about the idea of well-read ever since, and I've realized how much my own working definition has really altered, has evolved in the past 10 or so years. But what is your working definition of well-read right now?

[00:28:16] REBECCA: I think it's some combination of familiarity with the classic canon, the kind of English class staples. Plus, for us, the Book Riot philosophy that that old canon that's mostly dead white guys, we support those books. We're interested in those. They're important to the history of literature, and they're not the only thing. So how do we update the canon with representation of a variety of voices, familiarity with more contemporary kinds of stories, and that being conversant with big contemporary pop culture hits. Like understanding what's important in the world of books and reading, why the world turns as it does, and being conversant and familiar with the hits of the past as part of that.

When Jeff talked about that post that he had written of Zero to Well-Read in 100 Books, this podcast is kind of a melding of that idea that he had. And I had been nurturing this long, but kinda simmering on this idea for a long time of something around the modern canon and what would be 21st century books that would help you become well read and that trouble the idea of the traditional canon that bring in more voices. We're both interested in that.

[00:29:31] But the idea for the show clicked when we realized that we should merge those two things, merge the caring about classics and the books that have defined literary history with an equal interest in more contemporary and a more diversified reading landscape.

JEFF: That initial list did include... I think it had Fifty Shades of Grey on it, for that reason.

REBECCA: It did. People were mad.

JEFF: And I think this is important to say, too, is that we're not making policy here. We're not really making an argument for what you believe as being well-read should be. This is really a descriptive one of what we're trying to do, and what we're interested in, and that includes, I think, probably a more traditional idea of well-read, which is sort of Oedipus, you know, Homer to... Oh, Morrison maybe, you know? Like you sort of stop somewhere in there.

[00:30:21] But I am interested in understanding what actual readers are doing now, sort of almost anthropologically. So Rebecca and I, on the main show and personally, will take on, you know, I read Theo of Golden. Not my favorite book in the world, but I wanted to know what was going on with Theo of Golden because I find that interesting.

And that will change. Every year we have a different list of like, okay, here's a couple, just have a sense of what people are reading and caring about what's going on. But for me to be well-read, I do have, you know, probably the stuff you've heard of. Like, what you imagine would be on my list is on my list. It's Shakespeare, it's Homer, it's Virginia Woolf, it's Jane Austen, it's Sophocles. I'm an Americanist by trade, so it's more into the present and into the future, into the contemporary.

And I think Rebecca and I also are really interested in doing a little prognostication about what books are coming out now or what writers are working now that may survive the slaughterhouse that is time when it comes to culture. Most of the things die. Most of the things will not survive.

REBECCA: Almost everything.

[00:31:21] JEFF: Almost everything doesn't survive in terms of people caring about it. But some of it does. Is that going to be Ishiguro? Is that going to be Jesmyn Ward? Is it going to be Murakami? Is it going to be Sarah J. Maas? You know, we don't know, but we find that very interesting.

And having some familiarity with that conversation is built into my definition. So it's much more of a chronologically holistic idea than I think most people hear when they hear great books or they hear well-read. They think, you know, mahogany books and leather armchairs and respiratory diseases from pipes. I like to think of it as a living document, a living canon rather than a past canon.

REBECCA: Yeah, it's not the checklist out of the back of the Harold Bloom book that Jeff found at Barnes & Noble when he was 15.

JEFF: Though I did start there. That is where it started.

ANNE: Although a list like that is a good place, a good way to get you thinking.

JEFF: You got to start somewhere. I think that's the idea of the show, too, Anne, is like, people are like, "I want to be well-read. Where do you start?" Like, "I'm not really sure."

[00:32:15] REBECCA: I mean, we hear from readers all the time, our listeners, who are like, "When are you going to do this book? How come not this one?" I program the podcast and the task of making the list of the first 50 books we were going to talk about and making it as, like, what's important to us, what's important historically, but also what has a big adaptation coming out because people will be interested in that, or what's hitting an important anniversary. You can read the Zero to Well-Read episode list as a checklist, but it's definitely not prioritized. It's not like we started with the most important book or the least important, and we're working our way to the most important. They're all in the mix, but each one of them has something to say and is important for a different reason.

JEFF: Can I throw a question, Anne? I have a hypothetical for you. I've thought about this before. I don't think Rebecca's even heard me say this, which is something.

ANNE: Love a hypothetical. As long as you're not going to ask me to choose 50.

[00:33:07] JEFF: No, no, no. Rather than think of a definition, I imagine a scenario. When someone who has this literary anxiety and they want to be well-read, but they're freaked out about it, I imagine that what they want is something like this, is if someone could ask them if they read a certain book, and they would say yes, and they'd have at least something somewhat interesting to say about it in 30 seconds. That is my sense of what people actually kind of, quote, "want" if they have an anxious or internalized desire to be well-read at some point. That they could do something like that, that they will never be caught with their literary pants down, for lack of a better term.

ANNE: What's the question? I have thoughts.

JEFF: Does that sound right to you? I mean, when you hear people being worried about being well-read for themselves, like they don't want to have someone ask them, "Have you read Baudelaire?" And they're like, "Oh, no, I haven't."

[00:34:01] ANNE: I mean, when we're wrapping our heads around a concept and a state of being, because I have come to think more of being well-read as a way of existing in the literary world. And like even more than that, in the world. It's like who you are as a reader and a thinker, as a person. But you can't plot that on a chart. You can't check that off in your journal.

But now I really think of being well-read as stepping into the... ooh, what's a good metaphor? Maybe you already have one. For now we're going to go with river Stepping into the river of literature, capital L literature, as one long, millennia-long conversation. And there's no getting caught with your pants down if you are someone who's learned to speak this language, who's comfortable in this ongoing stream of literature. There's only curiosity and interest. And like, "No, I haven't read that, but tell me more." That is a way to be part of the conversation.

[00:35:06] And something I'm really intrigued by, and have been thinking about a lot for years now, not just because of this conversation, is how I think being well-read does mean able to read well. To have the accumulated skills to navigate difficult texts, and also background context to understand things that you as a reader would have missed 5, 10, 20, 30 years ago. But that idea of reading well and being well-read is circular, I believe, to a large degree.

I remember 10 years ago reading Middlemarch, and... look, this has happened with plenty of other texts. Maybe it would have happened sooner if I hadn't gotten such a grounding in Shakespeare in high school and college. But reading Middlemarch and being like, "Oh, I can finally see the root source of all these allusions I can instantly see I've been missing in all my reading life." Like, I didn't know what it meant for somebody to be called a Casaubon or they talk about a Dorothea or the way Aphrodite's cited in that book. They just went clear over my head because I hadn't read it. I wasn't familiar with the source material. I didn't know.

[00:36:08] That's just one way that reading one of those canonical works changed the way I read going forward. Like, I was that much further into the river. I hate that metaphor. We'll adjust it later. But would you talk to me about this idea how reading well begets being well-read, ad infinitum?

REBECCA: I think it's really grounded in curiosity. I'm so glad that you brought that word into the conversation, because there are people in the world who do the thing that Jeff described of like, "Oh, you haven't read Baudelaire. You don't count as well read." But I don't think that that person-

ANNE: How could one claim?

REBECCA: Right. I don't think that that person is engaged in the same-

JEFF: No, they're not.

REBECCA: ...pursuit that we're engaged in.

JEFF: No.

REBECCA: Because in my experience, and I think I can speak for Jeff on this too, the more that you stand in this river, because now we're committed to the metaphor, Anne. The more that you-

JEFF: I'm the panelist out of it. I'm working on something. You guys keep swimming, I'll figure...

ANNE: Okay. We're just whiteboarding this as we go.

[00:37:01] REBECCA: But the more that you exist in this way, where you're trying to practice reading well, so you're picking up books that you understand to have some important piece of context in the literary pantheon, and you're trying to apply your skills and to sharpen them, the more aware you are of how much there is that you haven't read and that you'll never get to, and that this is a never-ending pursuit.

Again, we never arrive at well-read, but for every 100 classic books that we talk about on this podcast, there are thousands that we'll never get to, and there are millions that have been lost to time that at some point were important to somebody. So I find it to be like a curiosity and a humility of that there is this... Like, it's exciting that we get to build up our own knowledge and understanding in these ways, but every book we pick represents like thousands of books that we're not talking about, thousands of books that we're not reading. Most of them are lost to time.

[00:38:01] Go back and look at the National Book Award nominees from even 30 years ago, and you will not recognize almost any of the titles. Very few books stand the test of time. But those books were important in their moment. In 1997, people were pointing at those titles and saying, like, "Some of these are going to be it, and some of these are part of being well-read." And to be open and exploratory about it rather than prescriptive.

I find that it's, to go back to your original question, the circle of reading well and being well-read, I do find that it feeds itself because you pick up on something in a book and you feel like, "Oh, I just sharpened this skill." And that skill comes with you into the next book that you read, and then you feel gradually over time like you can take on more challenging books or maybe the books that you've been daunted by or intimidated by in the past.

[00:38:52] I had a really intimidating reading experience with Salman Rushdie my freshman year of college, scared me off of his fiction for like 25 years. And I didn't saddle up to do Rushdie again until the first season of Zero to Well-Read, where I thought, Partially I've had 25 years of reading since then. I've developed a lot more tools. I'll have a great buddy with Jeff. But then when you climb that mountain, you've read something that was previously too difficult for you, there's no better way to bust your literary imposter syndrome. Like, okay, what's next? Like, what else seems hard?

JEFF: I go, "I'm going to live forever. I can do anything."

REBECCA: Art.

ANNE: I think there's a real interesting tension here where I think being well-read as a way of being, to me, speaks so much to being comfortable in the world and at ease, and feeling confident that you can read for understanding and be confident in your own understanding and have some freedom from the question that plagued so many of us for years, decades, that is, Am I doing this right? Do I get what's really happening?" And that you're confident to poke at ideas and challenge assumptions, and look deeply into the surface of what the author's trying to say and contribute your own ideas.

[00:40:07] But also being so not at ease in other ways. Like recognizing that some new but also classic canonical works are bewildering and strange. And maybe you don't understand them, but why and what's going on there? And for all these questions, how can reading in community deepen your understanding of the texts and push you to notice things that you didn't notice on your own, and in those ways help you become a better reader and a better-read reader as well.

JEFF: I do think it's very difficult to be the kind of reader I think a lot of people want to be without having to articulate something about your reading experience, whether verbally or written or some other ways. Because I think the first obstacle people have, if this is something they're wanting to engage in or trying to engage in, is getting out of the "I like this, I didn't like this" paradigm. That is largely how we talk about books in a casual way online and other ways. "Did you read that?" "Yeah, I liked it." And that's kinda what people generally are looking for.

[00:41:06] That's not to say your own experience of a text isn't germane. It is. But liking something and not liking something can get in the way of... Not get in the way of. It can become a substitute for engaging with that text in some other kind of a way. And the best way to engage with something like this is, like, I'm a thinking talker. Most of us get our best ideas and understand what we think when we're writing or when we're speaking, because in that process of articulation, you have to crystallize and consolidate and organize what this internal roiling thing you might be thinking or feeling is.

So, you know, reading Vineland by Thomas Pynchon by yourself is a different experience than talking with someone about it, writing something about it. And that's hard to do individually, and that's one reason we have the show. But then listening to other people have a conversation, I'm like this when I'm listening to a pod, I'm like the ghost joining in the conversation. It's articulating and clarifying my own thinking there.

[00:42:08] So having some other venue, I guess what I'm saying, Anne, to sort of process that reading experience you just had. It can also then cement it into your memory. That certainly does it for me when Rebecca and I talk about something.

But here's another thing. The Q rating of any book that we do on the show goes up about 5,000% if we talked about it for 90 minutes. We did not love Wuthering Heights. I'll just say that. You know, at our reading experience together, I'll speak for you, Rebecca-

REBECCA: I suffered.

JEFF: But after talking about it for 90 minutes, I'm not sure that it's one of my favorite books of all time, but I got something out of it, and it was that reading experience was enriched and deepened just for that. I think that's another thing for people to think about. And it's easy for me to say because I've got a running buddy here, and this is my job.

[00:42:49] But if you find you pick up Middlemarch, which is a wonderful text with lots of allusions that you can also read as just a great book on its own, and then you're at the end, you're like, "What did I get out of that?" I think that's a very valid and difficult question to answer, Anne. Like, what do you do with all of that experience at that moment?

ANNE: What did I get out of that? Okay, I like that.

REBECCA: I love this notion of reading in community. One of my, I think, perpetual hot takes is that book clubs are overrated because you're trying to solve for the happiness and, like, taste of so many people. Like, 8 to 10 people is too many people to try to like ring everybody's bells and have a deep conversation about something. When we get a question from listeners about, like, "How can I do this better?" I'm always like, "You need one book buddy." My reading life, and I think Jeff's reading life are meaningfully different because we get to talk to each other.

[00:43:40] There's something really valuable about one or maybe two, maybe you have a really small book club with a couple people who are like-minded but different enough from you that their thinking will open things up for you and will challenge you, that we come to conversations. I walk away with new thoughts about a book because Jeff is a different human than I am and brings a different perspective and might have a different take or help me open up my understanding of something. I'm going to appreciate different things than he's going to appreciate.

But you can even read in community with yourself, that I think the step zero is reading with a pen in your hand if you're reading in paper, or getting familiar with the highlighting features if you're reading digitally, that notice to be more present to your reading experience rather than just letting the words wash over you, noticing when something strikes you.

JEFF: You're right. That is step zero, Rebecca. Absolutely.

[00:44:32] REBECCA: Right? Noticing when something feels important. Mark it down. One of the enduring and repeated surprises of our show is that we do a little segment on each episode about notable quotes, and we will come with the same quotes without having talked about them.

REBECCA: Out of a 400-page book, we'll have 10 of the same ones.

REBECCA: We're like, "Oh, that is a thing. That's something here, that the writer... Like, they landed on something important. They hit some emotional bell in a particular way that resonates." When we host read-alongs with our community, it happens as well, where people are like, "Oh yeah, I underlined that, too." But give yourself a chance to notice and then to go back and either talk to someone about what you noticed that struck you deeply or that seemed important, or write something about it.

And this doesn't have to be public. The internet makes you feel like everything has to be some kind of public side hustle. But you don't have to post a public review on Goodreads. You don't have to launch a Substack. We have a good friend, Greg, who's had a reading journal for 25 years. It could be as simple as that. Open a Google Doc and write two paragraphs about the book you just read and what seemed important about it. What were the themes? What is the author trying to say? What moved you? What will you remember about it?

[00:45:44] That in itself... you're communing with your current self, and then you're giving your future self something to come back to, can be, I think, a really expansive and formative part of becoming not more well-read, but more d... about reading more well. Reading well more. I don't know.

JEFF: Reading better, Rebecca. I believe in you.

REBECCA: Reading better.

JEFF: There you go.

REBECCA: I was trying to stick to the formulation of well-read and reading well.

JEFF: I was enjoying you drowning in Anne's River.

REBECCA: Thanks for letting me flail a little bit there.

ANNE: On that note, thinking of all the imposter syndrome I've heard and literary insecurity, noticing what jumps out at you when you're reading is so important. Also, a word of advice, if I may, readers. Don't be precious about-

REBECCA: Don't be precious.

ANNE: ...thinking like, "What will somebody think if they read my highlight? Later will somebody who reads this paperback I've highlighted with my pen in after me go, 'What kind of reader highlighted that sentence?'" Like, don't... Notice what you notice, and give yourself the freedom to record that so that you can actually remember what it is that you noticed. And if anybody needs to hear this, I notice, or I... Well, I do notice, and also highlight the most basic, boring things in my texts, because I want to remember something like, "Oh, this character was 15 in 1967." The smart readers are not highlighting that. "Smart readers," hear my air quotes.

REBECCA: They might be.

[00:47:03] ANNE: But I am, because I might need to know that later for my work or my review or my thoughts. But if you have no idea what it is about a particular turn of phrase that jumps out at you, but it does, like, mark that down. That's how you learn about the author, you learn about the text, you learn about the reader.

REBECCA: And eventually you learn something about yourself when you have a collection of quotes or moments or ideas from books you've read over time. You will start to see themes. It's like, "Oh, I'm a person who's interested in this question. I care about books that do this thing." And that lets you go into conversations with other readers or conversations with a great bookseller or a librarian where you can be like, "Who's exploring this?" A lot of recommendations are just based on the voice is similar or the tone of the book is similar, or they have similar tropes. But I think you really unlock a new kind of reading and like a daisy chain you're making for yourself when you can start to ask those questions of "I really like a book." Like, what we talk a lot about, like fathers and sons, man. I love a book about an old man waiting to die and reflecting on his life. Who's doing that? You know, who's asking these big questions? You can get different and I think more interesting recommendations that way.

[00:48:13] ANNE: And you know, something I've learned from my years on What Should I Read Next? is that talking through your reading life with a friend can be really helpful. Because you may not realize that you keep coming back to the same themes, or that you keep visiting certain topics over and over again. Like, it might take your version of book buddy Jeff or Rebecca saying to you, like, "Hey, what is it with all these books about old men waiting to die? Do you realize you keep doing that?" Oftentimes the answer is, "No, I had no idea. I kept on coming back to, I don't know, tortured female protagonists making choices on bridges in their mid-30s." I need somebody else to point that out to me.

REBECCA: There is something, I think, kind of vulnerable, to use an overused word, about sharing your reading life and your perspectives on books with someone else. One of the things that comes back to you is you get perceived. Like, we see each other in an interesting way, and probably a different way than anybody else in our lives sees us because of the specific conversations we're having and the way that we're having them about books. That's a gift. It's very cool to get to have a book buddy and reflect on your own stuff, but to have somebody who can reflect back to you. Like, "Man, you sure don't like these complicated mothers and daughters, do you?"

[00:49:25] ANNE: But that's worth noticing.

REBECCA: Yeah.

ANNE: I believe that's worth noticing. Okay, Rebecca, you referenced point zero on the road, Zero to Well-read.

REBECCA: Oh, no.

ANNE: Would you all acquaint us with some other stops along the way? Questions to ask ourselves, steps to take.

JEFF: Well, Rebecca, so step zero is notice stuff, right? Do something where you're slowing down. And I was going to build on that, so I'm glad you followed up this way, is step zero is noticing. And so maybe along with that, try to slough off caring about how many books you read this year or how fast you're reading. Because this is a slower kind of reading.

If you're the kind of person who keeps a journal or a Goodreads or whatever, and you've got some identity wrapped up in "I'm the kind of reader who reads X number of books a year," and you want to read well or read better, you may find those things to be in tension with each other. Because reading with a pen in hand is different than reading on your Kindle and just flying through it. Again, it's not worse, but it's a different kind of reading experience.

[00:50:33] I think the thing on top of that is going back to what Anne said about not worrying about what people think of your highlights. Do people hear how weird it is to think about people thinking about people reading your highlights? Like, I hear you say that, and I'm totally with you, but when you think about it, what kind of narcissism is that, that you think someone's going to pick up your book, read it all the way through, and notice your highlighting, and care enough to say something to you about it and feel some kind of way about it?

But that extends to all kinds of things like, are you worried about performative reading, or are you worried about what people are going to s... This is a long way of saying you're doing this for you. If there is no trophy you're going to get when you are, quote-unquote, "well-read" that you can put on your mantle, right? That's not happening, people. This is all for you.

So any part of this experience that you feel sort of the tap on your shoulder of other people saying you should do it differently or why aren't you doing X, you gotta let that go, man. That's not going to help you. This is for you. And all the stuff that's good about it is not going to show up on your Goodreads or on your clothes or your, you know, Phi Beta Kappa pin. You're not going to get any of that stuff. It's all internal.

[00:51:46] I think that's another thing just to be real about. It's all internal. And maybe your reading buddy will see you. Okay, so that's one other person. But you have to have some self... If you want to do this in a way that I think is actually sustaining and actually nourishing, you might be the only one that knows.

REBECCA: I think letting go of external measurements of it or no longer investing in sort of external perceptions of your reading. But to be, I guess, practical in recommendation. Step one is noticing, step zero is noticing, then step one is doing something with what you notice. Talk about it, write about it, make a record of it in some way.

And then after that, be sort of in conversation with those things over time so that the books you read aren't just a series of one-off experiences, but you are actively then working to connect the threads. One thing I deeply believe is that we could have picked a whole different 50 books for the first year of the show, and we would have found a bunch of the same themes. We would have found ways that they talk to each other. We would have had just as alive and enriching conversations about them.

[00:52:54] You will tap into the big ideas, the big questions that art asks, the big things that people are worried about in their lives now and that they've been worried about for as long as we've had art with any substantial reading experience. So also commit to the list you're committing to or commit to the way that you're reading and practice that acceptance that there are still just going to be a million books that you'll never get to.

If you're going to enjoy the ones in front of you, you can't be constantly nagged by the hundreds that you'll never get to. We're both going to die with thousands of books unread that would've been great, but you won't know. It's like you're going to be dead, you won't know. Try to enjoy the ones that you've got right now, I think, is really critical. But I think do let it be reading's internal. Let it be an internal thing. If the social aspects of it, if the posting and the Goodreads and the counting and all of that are constraining you more than they are expanding you, I would say, really try to let go of that.

[00:53:54] I just got asked if I would ever be willing to post my whole annual reading list at the end of the year, and I was like, "Absolutely not." I talk about a lot of the things I read on the podcast, but there are things I read just to see what's up with them. There are things that I finish even though they're bad, because I wanted to see if they would go through. There's a bender that I go on with a series when I'm on vacation. We have all sorts of stuff going on, but it doesn't all need to be for public consumption. And letting reading be transformative for you in the ways that you want to be transformed, I think, is the most important guidepost.

ANNE: I mean, there's so much we can learn and ways we can benefit by bringing that to other readers, and also, we want it to be essentially yours.

[00:54:45] Jeff and Rebecca, last question. For those who are still squeamish, scared, overwhelmed, what's a word of advice you would give? I'll go first. And that is I'd want you to know that reading is something you learn by doing. So you are not going to figure out exactly what to do and then step into the books. You're going to step into the books and then figure out what to do. So pick your next book, or the one you're in the middle of right now, and keep going, maybe with an added awareness of what it is you're doing based on what we talked about today.

JEFF: You stole mine, Anne. Maybe to build on it a little bit is that it is-

ANNE: I'm sure you have more to say.

JEFF: It is okay and normal if you're in the middle of something and you don't get what's going on.

REBECCA: Ooh. You stole mine.

[00:55:32] JEFF: Okay. Well, then I'll give you 90 seconds while I expound on that a little bit. That is completely normal. We talked about it when we did Hamlet and when we did Much Ado About Nothing. Shakespeare is tough, it's different, and the language is beyond, past, wherever, it's away from us, wherever that is. And part of the experience of it is the difficulty and the strangeness. But that's a feature, not a bug most of the time because then you have to engage. This is not easy. It is intellectual and emotional work to understand, to try to get into your bones what's going on with some of these texts.

And you may not ever understand it, and they're not all going to go great for you. It's not always going to go great. I have a household of long-distance runners, and each run is painful because it's just a little harder than the last run, but they're running longer and faster each time, and that's part of the process. It's not as grueling as running a 5K, but there is an element, as you say, as each book goes into it, but that feeling of tension or pain or discomfort is growth. That's a feature, not a bug.

[00:56:35] And then within that, one of the reasons they're hard to understand, one of the reasons you may not get it, they may be discomforting, is by and large the books that survive time, even a decade, they're weird, man. These are weird books. They're doing something different. They've broken the mold in some way. And we find the ones we come back to still have something to say, and they resist your easy categorization of what you think you may know about Shakespeare or you may know about what... Hemingway, I guess, is a great one, where people have a conception of what a Hemingway book is, but then you actually go read Old Man and the Sea, and it's like, yes and, it's that and it's something else.

So I think you may be surprised to find that it is discomforting, but also this is a litany of strangeness going back to Homer essentially, and before. And that strangeness is their sort of a sequential contribution to the human project of figuring out what the hell it means to be human. And that's what's cool to me about it because these are all weirdos. So be weird. Be a weird reader, because they're a weird book.

[00:57:39] REBECCA: I was going to take the "they're all weirdos" point. But I think trust yourself. You're a reader, and you have some of these skills already fundamentally. And trusting yourself as a reader in today's technological era means when you hit something in the book that you don't understand, because you will. Like, there will be weird moments, there will be things you don't understand, or maybe there are unfamiliar words. Mark it, but keep moving. Don't interrupt your reading experience to Google something immediately.

Try to trust yourself that you can put together from context what that word means, or that you will figure out what this strange scene is ultimately about. If you pick up Beloved, there's some stuff in there that's really weird, and you aren't going to know what's going on. And that's the point in some works of fiction. You are supposed to be unsettled. So if you put the book down and you go to Google at the first sign of, "Oh my God, maybe I don't get it," you will interrupt your reading experience, you'll interrupt your flow, and you reinforce the idea that you need to Google stuff in order to understand it.

[00:58:45] But the reading muscle is built just like Jeff's long-distance running muscles by just practicing it. And like, you will be able to do it. Also, you're not going to die if you don't pick up every one of Steinbeck's weird vocabulary terms. You will still walk away from East of Eden having gotten the point, and it will be there for you later. So like, I'm kind of always advising readers, circle the word you don't understand, and if when you're flipping back through the book you still need to Google it to make sense of that passage, then go Google it. But if you can, for the most part, read like you don't know the internet exists and you don't know your phone is in the next room, please don't read with your phone right next to you, then you can start to... Like, give yourself opportunities to figure it out, and that will reinforce the idea that, oh, I can do this. And every one of those is another rep of that muscle getting stronger. And then over time you trust yourself more, and that's really gratifying.

[00:59:39] ANNE: I also want to repeat something I say several times a month on What Should I Read Next?, which is, in the reading life, probably everywhere, it is never just you. It's not like everybody understands the story but you, everybody appreciates the story but you, everybody loves the story but you, everybody reads the story faster than you are. There is no such thing. So I hope that helps you keep going.

REBECCA: Yes, keep going.

ANNE: Jeff and Rebecca, parting words?

JEFF: Boy, that's tough. If you're listening to Anne's show, like, I think probably a lot of this you maybe get in ways that we don't understand, but also do understand at the same time. I think each individual reader is going to have to answer the question themself, like what's their own baggage around the idea of being well-read. If you can let it go, great. That's for you. But if it's something that you actually think about, like you want something different out of your reading life than you're getting now, you gotta do something different, and it probably needs a structure of some kind to get going a little bit.

[01:00:39] So like anything interesting, challenging, and worthwhile doing, it's not just hard, but it's the difficulty isn't the difficulty, it's the repeating the difficulty over time that's hard. And that's going to be something they have to decide for themselves, rather like, "Oh, I'm never going to get to this or this book." It's like, well, you're not going to unless you try to get to it. And do you really want to get to it, or are you, you know, come to some kind of honesty with yourself about what you want out of your reading? And know that whatever that is is fine. And you can always start again later. Doesn't have to be today. Can start any time.

REBECCA: I think that you're allowed to care about this. You're allowed to care about being well-read. You're also allowed not to. But like you're allowed to care about it, and caring about it doesn't make you snobby. It also doesn't make you better than other kinds of readers.

JEFF: You can be snobby, though.

REBECCA: You can.

JEFF: But don't. Don't do that either. Don't do that.

[01:01:27] REBECCA: It's not inherently snobby. It's not inherently anything. Like, you can care about this even if it's less popular on the internet to care about this than to be interested in, I don't know, whatever TikTok is into. And those forms of reading have their own va... they add their own value to the literary landscape as well. But if you're listening to this and thinking, "I do want to get something more out of my reading life," it's okay. And it also doesn't mean that your past reading life has been a failure. But we like... we're constantly wanting to expand and to grow in new ways, and there's no better way to do that than books, and to do it through books with people who are also interested in having those kinds of conversations.

ANNE: Whatever it is, it's never just you.

REBECCA: It's never just you. Love that.

ANNE: Jeff and Rebecca, this has been a pleasure. Thanks so much for joining me today.

REBECCA: Thanks so much, Anne.

JEFF: Anne, wonderful. Thank you so much.

[01:02:17] ANNE: Hey readers. I hope you enjoyed my conversation with Rebecca and Jeff. We'll have the links to their podcast, Zero to Well-Read, as well as the full list of titles we talked about today at whatshouldireadnextpodcast.com.

Make sure you're on our email list so you know what's up at What Should I Read Next HQ. We send out regular updates about each week's new episode as well as other upcoming events and news to know. Sign up at whatshouldireadnextpodcast.com/newsletter.

Be sure to follow us in Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Overcast, wherever you get your podcasts. Find our show on Instagram @whatshouldireadnext. We appreciate it when you share your favorite episodes with a friend there.

Thanks to the people who make this show happen. What Should I Read Next? is created each week by executive producer Will Bogel, Media production specialist Holly Wielkoszewski, social media manager and editor Leigh Kramer, community coordinator Brigid Misselhorn, community manager Shannan Malone, and our whole team at What Should I Read Next? and Modern Mrs. Darcy HQ. Plus the audio whizzes at Studio D Podcast Production.

Readers, that's it for this episode. Thanks so much for listening. And as Rainer Maria Rilke said, "Ah, how good it is to be among people who are reading." Happy reading, everyone.

• 2666 by Roberto Bolaño, translated by Natasha Wimmer
• Twilight by Stephenie Meyer
The Fraud by Zadie Smith
Matrix by Lauren Groff
The Road by Cormac McCarthy
The Orchard by Adele Crockett Robertson 
Solito by Javier Zamora
Invisible Man by Ralph Ellison 
• The Secret History by Donna Tartt
• East of Eden by John Steinbeck
• The Shining by Stephen King
• Fifty Shades of Grey by E L James
• Theo of Golden by Allen Levi
• Middlemarch by George Eliot
• Vineland by Thomas Pynchon
• Wuthering Heights by Emily Brontë
• Fathers and Sons by Ivan Turgenev
• The Old Man and the Sea by Ernest Hemingway

: Guest favorite book
▵: A book they didn’t love

• From Zero to Well-Read in 100 Books
• Check back for the link once Anne’s conversation on Zero to Well-Read releases!
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The post What does it mean to be well-read? appeared first on Modern Mrs Darcy.

Reading in retirement has given today’s guest more time to explore what makes a book “click” for her, and she’s joining me today to talk all about it.

Debbie Day lives in the Nashville area, where she’s enjoying settling into retirement and empty nesting. This chapter of life is giving her more time for travel, dancing, cooking, spending time with friends and family, and of course, reading.

The extra time to reflect on her reading life has led Debbie to discover an unexpected common thread among her favorite books: an interesting structure. Now that she’s homed in on this element, Debbie is on the hunt for more such books—but she’s not sure where to look.

I’m is a fellow structure nerd, and I couldn’t wait to talk all about this with Debbie.

If you have ideas for Debbie, we’d love to know those titles, too: please share by leaving a comment below.

We’ve been thrilled to hear from so many of you that you’re loving this year’s Fall Book Preview lookbook. This smaller-format, analog booklet invites you to dig into my selections for this season’s most anticipated books. Find out more and get your copy while supplies last at ⁠modernmrsdarcy.com/fbp⁠.

[00:00:00] ANNE BOGEL: You don't have to be sad about it.

DEBBIE DAY: I am sad. I feel like-

ANNE: This is just data.

DEBBIE: I feel like I brought this half-baked theory, and now I'm expecting you to do all the research and figure it out, so. Sorry.

ANNE: No, this is what we do here.

Hey readers, I'm Anne Bogel, and this is What Should I Read Next?. Welcome to the show that's dedicated to answering the question that plagues every reader, what should I read next? We don't get bossy on this show. What we will do here is give you the information you need to choose your next read. Every week we'll talk all things books and reading, and do a little literary matchmaking with one guest.

[00:00:48] Readers, first about Fall Book Preview and our new for 2026 cute little useful lookbook. We have been thrilled to hear from so many of you that you are really loving our Fall Book Preview lookbook. It's smaller format this year. It's 6x9. It's inky, hand-stamped, kind of zine-inspired, and it invites you to dig into my selections for this season's most anticipated books, and some of our team picks, too. But since it's analog, you get to mark it up, take it anywhere, dog-ear it if you want, and refer to it all the time, like for months or years to come.

Our 2026 lookbook stands alone more than it ever has before. You can use it independently of Unboxing Easy. So whether you've already experienced Unboxing, are still making plans to do so, or don't plan to join in Unboxing at all, this year's lookbook is for you.

We also designed it from the jump as being really reasonably priced. You can get it delivered to you, including shipping, for about 10 bucks. Find out more and get your copy. It is analog. We only have so many copies, and we are going to sell them out. So get your copy while supplies last at modernmrsdarcy.com/fbp, that's for Fall Book Preview. Modernmrsdarcy.com/fbp.

[00:02:04] Readers, today's guest, Debbie Day, is joining me from the Nashville area, where she is enjoying settling into retirement and empty nesting. And she's loving having more time for travel, dancing, cooking, spending time with friends and family, and of course, reading, including with the new book club that she helped create.

Debbie is grateful that now she's able to better, and especially more leisurely, explore what makes a book really click for her as a reader. She's joining me to share what she's learned so far, especially as she's learned things she didn't expect to discover. And she's looking for new titles that might deliver the reading experiences that she now knows she would like to have more often.

This extra time to reflect on her reading life has led Debbie to discover an unexpected common thread among her favorite books, and that is an interesting structure. Now that she's homed in on this element, Debbie is on the hunt for more such books, but she's not sure where to go look for them. As a structure nerd myself, you know I have ideas for Debbie, and I can't wait to talk about all of it with her today.

[00:03:12] Readers, first a note. Every once in a while, we get some audio gremlins during a recording, and today is one of those days. You'll hear a few small disruptions, especially in the first few minutes, but we think they won't detract too much from your listening enjoyment. Thanks for listening. Let's get to it.

Debbie, welcome to the show.

DEBBIE: Hi. Thank you so much for having me.

ANNE: All right.

DEBBIE: Super excited.

ANNE: Thank you for being here. When I saw your submission, I thought, "Ooh." And when our team members saw your submission, they went, "Anne, you’ve got to look at what Debbie's looking for right now." So thanks for bringing it to the show.

DEBBIE: Absolutely.

ANNE: Debbie, we'd love to start by just giving our readers a glimpse of who you are. Could you tell us a little about yourself?

DEBBIE: Sure, yeah. I am calling in from just south of Nashville. I live in a new community, actually. My husband and I moved here recently. We're pretty excited about it because it's kind of specifically designed for community, so lots of things to get involved with and people to meet and friends to make, so we're excited for that.

[00:04:21] I retired shortly ago. I was a preschool director for years and years, but as my children are flying, leaving the nest, just kind of decided to take this time to just spend with my husband and travel and do fun things.

ANNE: Well, that sounds lovely.

DEBBIE: Yeah.

ANNE: Now, Debbie, would you tell us about your reading life?

[00:04:50] DEBBIE: Sure. Obviously, lifelong reader, just one of those people that just obsesses over books. Always remember just hankering to go to the library. I had a kind of a mail order... a book subscription that I just remember just anxiously waiting for it to arrive every month. And then enter high school and college, and the reading for pleasure definitely dropped off, like I've heard many listeners or many of your guests say.

Then after college, you know, raising a family, all that good stuff, I got involved in a book club, got invited to a book club, and that really brought me back to reading again, which has been wonderful. I'm glad to have it back. It's a great hobby. Enjoy it. And love to talk about books, and was able to, in the community that we moved into, start a new book club. So that's been really fun.

[00:05:59] ANNE: I'm glad to hear it. Now, Debbie, you mentioned that you have listened to this show for a long time. I'm curious to hear what brings you to What Should I Read Next? in this season, in this role, in What Should I Read Next?

DEBBIE: Sure. As I have more time being retired, have more time not only to read, but to think about my reading life, I've really been trying to figure out what it is that makes a book just work for me. You know, for years and years, I've always... I love cooking, I love food and travel, love learning lots of nerdy things about all that. So I kind of always assumed that all my favorite books somehow tied into food or wine or travel.

And then kind of as I've just been exploring it more, I feel like that's a piece of it, but not necessarily the whole picture. So one of my top three books, I was reading it recently and realized it had nothing to do with food or cooking, and it just... There was something about it that spoke to me, and I kind of realized, I think it might be an interesting structure or an interesting format for a book that draws me in.

[00:07:23] So I really would love some help, A, figuring out if that's accurate, like, if that is truly what's drawing me to books, and then, B, helping explore that more. Like, where do I find books like that? I'm open to exploring new genres that kind of maybe meet that criteria. So, yeah, I need your help.

ANNE: That is an interesting shift between thinking you may be interested in books that are food, wine-related to interesting structures. I love a book with an interesting structure, so this will be fun. Now, you mentioned that one of your favorites got you thinking about this new theory for what really works for you in your reading life. Is now a good time to talk about your books?

DEBBIE: Sure.

ANNE: Okay. All right. Debbie, you know how this works. You're going to tell me three books you love, one book you don't, and what you've been reading lately, and then we're going to poke at this theory a little bit and see what we discover. How did you choose these books that you brought to the show today?

[00:08:37] DEBBIE: I just kind of looked back at my five-star reads and tried to kind of focus obviously on ones that have really stuck with me, but that in looking back, really maybe kind of match this theory. I'd say that that's kind of how I kind of chose these three, but definitely ones that have stuck with me for a long time.

ANNE: Well, let's jump in. Debbie, what's the first book you love?

DEBBIE: The first book I chose was Like Water for Chocolate by Laura Esquivel. Some folks may have seen the movie, but the book is pretty special. It has a little magical realism story set at the turn of the century during the Mexican Revolution, and it is fun, it's quirky. I feel like that's something else that I have seen as I'm trying to flesh out what a good book is to me. I need a quirky character and someone that I can root for, and Like Water for Chocolate provides, for sure.

[00:09:48] Tita is a young lady, and she is the youngest daughter of kind of tyrannical mother. And just through tradition, she is supposed to never marry, not leave home, take care of her mother for life. That does not jive with the love Tita feels for Pedro. Basically, the mother says, "Nope, there will be no marriage for you," and Pedro instead ends up marrying Tita's sister just to stay close. You can imagine all that ensues in this very complicated, complicated story, family drama.

But what I loved and kind of the food aspect of it, so every chapter opens as a different month of the year, and it opens with a recipe. The recipes tie in with a little bit of the magical realism in the book.

[00:10:55] For instance, she's baking the wedding cake for her sister. She cries tears into the batter, and that has a detrimental effect to all of the guests when they eat the cake. They all end up, well, not only sick, but just in puddles and tears. They feel the deep sorrow that she did when she was baking this cake. No spoiler alerts, but it's also a little tragic, but just a really fun story, just a really interesting story.

ANNE: Okay. Like Water for Chocolate is book one. Debbie, what did you choose for your second loved book?

DEBBIE: My second book was The School of Essential Ingredients by Erica Bauermeister. I'm not usually a completist. I like a lot of variety, but Erica Bauermeister is one that I've read many of her books, not a completist, but many of her books, and really enjoy her writing.

[00:11:57] The School of Essential Ingredients is about a chef who is hosting monthly cooking classes, and each chapter is focused on one of the participants in the class. Her name is Lillian, the chef. Lillian helps them basically through the course of that chapter, during that class, to discover what the essential ingredients to their life, their situation, their problem is. It's also got several endearing characters. I wouldn't say as quirky as Tita in Like Water for Chocolate, but still folks that you can root for.

ANNE: All right, that's The School of Essential Ingredients as your second book. Debbie, what's the final book you love?

[00:12:54] DEBBIE: The third book I chose was, and this I read fairly recently, Where'd You Go, Bernadette by Maria Semple. This book is really what made me open my eyes to say, "Maybe it doesn't have to involve food and cooking to be a top contender." It does have definitely some quirky characters, for sure.

Where'd You Go, Bernadette is about an adolescent lady, young girl, with a very quirky mom, Bernadette. A series of events happens that make you understand Bernadette maybe struggles with some serious mental illness, agoraphobia, as a result of a... which the book opens, which I absolutely love, with Bee, that is the adolescent, with Bee's report card. And as a result of doing a great job and getting ready to move on to the planned boarding school experience, Bee picks a trip to Antarctica as her reward.

[00:14:07] So they're preparing as a family to go to Antarctica. Well, series of crazy events. It ends up that Bee and her father do not go to Antarctica, but Bernadette does, and she gets lost. The book is basically the backstory behind how all of that comes to be, and then Bee and her father reuniting with Bernadette in Antarctica. It's not really epistolary, but I especially loved the first half, which was just chock-full of, like I said, the report card, emails back and forth, letters, articles from Bernadette's past. I think that's what really drove that book for me.

ANNE: Okay. And this, I presume, is the one that spurred the realization.

DEBBIE: Yes, it is.

ANNE: Okay. Would you say more about that?

DEBBIE: Yeah, I was like, well... because it's interesting because I actually really loved... and I listened to this on audio. I really loved the first half of the book in particular, and that's where all of those bits and pieces of information, the letters, the emails, all of that was concentrated.

[00:15:29] Then the second half of the book was more just the story, the story of reuniting with Bernadette, and I think that just made me realize, oh, okay, what really drew me in was the different format, the different structure. And then I started looking back at all of my five-star reads, and it kind of dawned on me, oh, okay, most of these have an interesting format, something that just grabs you from the get-go.

ANNE: Debbie, I think you said that you had more five-star reads that matched this theory. What are some of those books?

DEBBIE: Okay. Theo of Golden, of course. Just how the portraits of the people kind of inform the story. The Only Plane in the Sky: An Oral History of 9/11. Oh my goodness, I loved that so much. I listened to it on audio. I mean, obviously it's interviewing people, but the way that they're little snippets and they're organized in, you know, the time leading up to and over those horrific hours. But the way that it's laid out and the stories are interwoven was just magical to me. I really enjoyed that book.

[00:16:54] North Woods also. The location, but the fact that it was years, decades, centuries in between when we visit and the fact that they're interwoven, that those stories are interwoven, I loved that. Love an epistolary.

Love & Saffron was a highlight. And The Correspondent. Both of those I loved. And then a more recent five-star that I love, Fresh Water for Flowers by Valérie Perrin. Short chapters, very short chapters, but they all open with an epitaph or inscription, and some of them were real from real tombstones. Some I think were imagined. That was just a hook that just kept me going. I love that story.

ANNE: Okay. And I'm inspecting those books for hints of food or wine. Maybe a hint, but not like a looming presence in these.

DEBBIE: Yeah. Yeah.

ANNE: Okay. Okay.

[00:17:59] DEBBIE: That would never be a problem.

ANNE: Okay. I mean, if you could answer the question, what is it about an interesting structure, then you wouldn't need to test your theory. But what has come up for you as you've considered what a distinctive storytelling style, not style exactly. Words are hard, Debbie.

DEBBIE: I know.

ANNE: What is it about the structure that's grabbing you?

DEBBIE: I don't know. I truly don't know. I'm like, I need your help. I'm trying to figure out what it is about this that is working. I don't know. I've wondered, is it just because my brain is lazy and I need some thing to draw me in to keep me entertained? I don't know. I'm not sure.

ANNE: Boards and theories.

DEBBIE: Okay.

[00:18:56] ANNE: You have read a... This is not diagnosis. These are hypotheses. You have read a ton of books, and you are curious about new ways to tell familiar stories. Up, down, yes, no, zero to 10 scale?

DEBBIE: I love that. That's probably a strong contender, nine. Nine out of 10.

ANNE: Okay. Hypothesis: you enjoy seeing what writers can do on the page. You enjoy good books. You think about what a story is, and these writers have new ways of storytelling that you didn't know were on offer to you, and you're just delighted to see all the ways there are to tell a good story.

DEBBIE: I like that also. Maybe a 7 out of 10.

ANNE: Okay. You enjoy the kaleidoscopic, multifaceted approach that these structural choices are bringing to the page. Because you're not just hearing from one narrator. You're not just inside one person's head. You're not getting the God view either with most of these. You know, although I guess you get a God-view narrator in the mix in some of these books that you really enjoy. But you enjoy seeing a full picture. It gives you a lot to think about, a lot to engage with, a lot to reflect upon during and after the reading experience.

[00:20:25] DEBBIE: Yes. Yes. I think that's very accurate. And I do love novelty, variety. I think that's a piece of it, too. But yes, definitely I love the multi viewpoints and being able to tease out what drives people.

ANNE: I mean, Debbie, we're certainly missing some stuff, and I think as you bring these ideas into your reading experience, even if they're just simmering on the back burner as you're continuing about your reading life, I imagine stuff is going to keep coming up for you. Like, "Oh, this makes sense. That's why I enjoy that. This is why I find this so satisfying." But right now, anything coming up for you?

DEBBIE: Nothing new.

ANNE: You don't have to be sad about it.

DEBBIE: I understand. I feel like...

ANNE: This is just data.

DEBBIE: I feel like I brought this half-baked theory, and now I'm expecting you to do all the research and figure it out, so. Sorry.

[00:21:25] ANNE: No, this is what we do here, in part. Do you feel like you have enough to go on?

DEBBIE: Yeah.

ANNE: Debbie, you mentioned some of the characteristics of books that just work for you, and when we think about, like, a Debbie Day prototypical read, you said quirky, you said interesting structure. For a long time, you thought food and wine connections were a big part of it, which makes me wonder about a multi-sensory element.

Like, I wonder if you enjoy a fully realized world that really has a lot of various supports in becoming multidimensional. The sensory angles: sights, scents... sight, scent, smells. Do you see what I did there?

DEBBIE: Yes. Yes, yes.

ANNE: It sounds weird, but two of those are the same thing. Really strong visual descriptions, like cues in the wording that let you really visualize somebody or feel like you know what their voice is going to sound like. You know, you can see the trees, you can feel the sun on your back, that kind of thing.

[00:22:31] I mean, I wonder if you like books that really come alive, and the structure is one of the tools by which that happens. But I also hear very clearly in what you say you enjoy that the structure is a component, but you're not going to be compelled by a very intellectual, you said no tomes. We'll talk about what that means more in a moment. That might have an interesting structure, but you're not looking for feats of technical brilliance or a performance.

DEBBIE: Correct.

ANNE: I think the structure is serving a purpose, and that is you fully stepping into the world, or that's a theory we're working on right now. Your experience with that theory to affirm or deny it is essential here.

DEBBIE: That makes perfect sense. I would want to understand a little bit... I would want to look at some of my favorite reads and see, but that makes perfect sense.

[00:23:33] ANNE: Okay, Debbie, I have questions. What does quirky mean to you? Tell me about a quirky character.

DEBBIE: Ooh.

ANNE: What's interesting about a quirky character?

DEBBIE: Oh, I love a quirky character. I mean, definitely Bernadette in Where'd You Go, Bernadette is a quirky character. Just complex and doesn't necessarily do things the standard way, makes me see things from someone's perspective that I may not be anything like.

Just as an aside, I have a... My 23-year-old is on the autism spectrum, and I think she has made me just grow to appreciate quirkiness and seeing things in a different way and just opening up that there's ways to see things other than my way. I just love to see that in a character. I love to explore that with a character.

[00:24:41] ANNE: So they don't need to be like the Zooey Deschanel character in a movie?

DEBBIE: No.

ANNE: Okay.

DEBBIE: No.

ANNE: Okay. I mean, intellectually, I know that you're thinking about the world differently than I am. But I'm wondering if a quirky character for you... That's unavoidable. Like, you just know they're living their life... They see things differently. You just know. It's very clear.

DEBBIE: Yes.

ANNE: Okay. Complex, non-standard, and different were my jottings there. You said no tomes. You don't want to read any tomes.

DEBBIE: No.

ANNE: But you love Tata by Valérie Perrin, and that's a pretty hefty book.

DEBBIE: It is.

ANNE: The Only Plane in the Sky, not short. So what's a tome, and what I'm looking for is what kind of books will be welcome and which feel less hospitable to you.

[00:25:36] DEBBIE: I actually am currently reading Tata. It was Fresh Water for Flowers that I read that is a tome, for sure. I definitely gravitate toward a... I say shorter book. It doesn't have to be short. I'm okay with getting really connected with characters over a long period of time, but I think I just like the kind of quick-paced, kind of cut to the chase quickly book. I don't need huge, deep, flowery descriptions of something to feel like I'm connected, to feel like I'm in it, and sometimes those long, flowery descriptions actually kind of lose me, kind of lose interest in that. So definitely shorter, 250 to 400 is probably a sweet spot.

ANNE: Okay. You mentioned in your submission that you're interested in stretching into new genres.

DEBBIE: Yes.

ANNE: Would you tell me more?

[00:26:44] DEBBIE: Yeah. I really do love variety and trying new things and exploring. I've dipped my toe in probably all of the genres at some point, but I'm really fascinated and would love to find things in my non-typical genres, like sci-fi, fantasy, even classics. I would say those are my least comfortable genres, but I would love to find some that kind of test this theory of the structure and see how those land, see if those end up being five-star reads for me.

Also, I'm interested in maybe backlist, older books that might fit this. I tend to gravitate toward newer, buzzy books, but I would also be interested in, you know, some that I wouldn't have trouble finding at the library that fit this new theory.

[00:27:59] ANNE: All right. We are going to see what we can do. Okay, Debbie, you enjoyed Like Water for Chocolate by Laura Esquivel, The School of Essential Ingredients by Erica Bauermeister, and Where'd You Go, Bernadette by Maria Semple. I forgot to ask you about a book that wasn't right for you. This is not the first time I've done that. Debbie, it's not too late. I don't know if you feel like you almost snuck through and got off the hook...

DEBBIE: I did. Actually, I probably need to talk about my least favorite book, you know, a book that did not work for me, because it kind of blows my theory, so do with it what you will.

ANNE: But it sounds very important. Okay.

DEBBIE: It's probably important.

ANNE: What's the book that's not right for you, and we gotta hear why. Not to your taste, was the timing wrong, not what you're looking for right now?

[00:28:57] DEBBIE: I read it a while back, but it sticks out for sure as a DNF for real. Like, serious DNF. Whether I should or shouldn't be embarrassed, it doesn't matter, but back in the Twilight Saga days, I was a huge fan the whole series.

So I was pretty excited to hear about Midnight Sun when it was coming out by Stephenie Meyer. Again, it seems to fit, like, not maybe structure, but the fact that it was going to retell the whole story from a different character's perspective seems like that would be an interesting catch to me. It did not work for me at all. It seemed ridiculous and nonsensical, and I just... It just couldn't go anymore. I probably read three chapters and just couldn't go anymore. So there's that.

[00:29:57] ANNE: Wait, hang on. You think this one book blows your whole theory?

DEBBIE: Well, maybe it doesn't blow my whole theory. I would have thought this would have been the perfect kind of interesting approach that it would work for me, but did not.

ANNE: Okay. Well, that's good to know. Also, because you like books with interesting structures, it doesn't mean you are going to like every book with an interesting structure. Like sometimes readers will come to me and say, "I thought I liked memoir, but I didn't enjoy this." There's so much variety in any category we're talking about in the reading life, and so many other factors. That's what makes books endlessly interesting, and also means that there's no, like, pat formula that's going to deliver a predictable result every time. Sometimes that's frustrating, but mostly we like it that way.

DEBBIE: Yeah. Yeah. You're right. You're absolutely right.

[00:30:52] ANNE: Okay, so the Twilight Saga book, Midnight Sun, not for you, just to pick up where we were. And we talked about some of the other five-star reads that back up your theory, including Fresh Water for Flowers by Valérie Perrin, and The Only Plane in the Sky by Garrett M. Graff. And we are looking for books with interesting structures that I think potentially you could read and see what they're like for you, what you notice. Do they work, and why or why not? And you're interested in branching into new genres.

Now's a good time to remind everyone, sometimes we get emails that say or ask Anne Anything questions that say, "What's the gap between when you're having this conversation and when you recommend the books?" There is no gap. We're just sitting here live with our no-Google policy, giving books to Debbie and... oh, sci-fi and fantasy. I'm sure there's good stuff that fits the bill. I have one in mind, but I wish I had more.

[00:31:53] Readers, you have the advantage of perusal and contemplation and your own bookshelves. Please come over to the comments at whatshouldireadnextpodcast.com and give your recommendations for Debbie. Reading is a group project and a team effort, and it's better that way. So thank you in advance for bringing your recommendations this way.

But Debbie, let's look at titles that could cement your theory. Let's start in what I imagine is a place of comfort for you. Now, you didn't explicitly talk about historical fiction or other works by the authors you enjoy, like Erica Bauermeister, No Two Persons. My goodness, there's an interesting structure. Have you read that one?

DEBBIE: I have.

ANNE: Did it work for you?

DEBBIE: Yeah. I really do enjoy all of her work.

ANNE: And there are other authors who write novels that are told in rotating points of view like that that I think you might find interesting, but I don't believe you're going to love in the same way. I'm thinking anything Joan Silber, for example. We have a blog post on Modern Mrs. Darcy, novels told in short stories.

[00:33:04] Gosh, we could talk about the different kinds of interesting structures, like novels that come full circle, or novels that are told where you go straight through, you meet one narrator, and there's a different narrator the whole book. We could talk about novels that are told only in emails, or only in Slack messages, or written as a play, or a sestina, or a partita coming out this fall. There's all kinds of different interesting structures, and we're not categorizing them today.

I will say, you could read nonfiction about creating an interesting structure. I don't see that appealing to you, but maybe I'm wrong. How does that sound?

DEBBIE: Hmm, that piques my interest, for sure.

ANNE: Okay. Well, the one I'm thinking of is a nonfiction book by John McPhee called Draft No. 4. The reason I'm recommending Draft No. 4 is that one of the essays in it that was originally published in The New Yorker maybe 15 years ago, called Structure, is in this collection.

[00:34:05] But he also has a long career writing nonfiction and teaching nonfiction. And John McPhee is a smart guy. You all may have heard Ginger talk about Oranges, I think, on this podcast. Draft No. 4 might have been the first book-length work I read by him. And I just saw it on the shelf at Politics and Prose for half off many, many years ago and thought, "I've heard of him. I'll try that." But he has an essay in there called Structure.

And something I think's interesting about that essay is he says that a piece doesn't really come to life until he can find the structure that is going to underpin all these thoughts, that while they might not be totally disparate, it can't come to life until he knows the best way to tell it. And he works only in nonfiction, but that doesn't mean that the way of thinking about the shape of a piece doesn't apply.

[00:35:01] Also, something he says in this piece is you're not supposed to notice the structure as a reader. He uses the analogy of the human body and a skeleton. Like, you're not supposed to see my bones, Debbie, and I'm not supposed to see yours. Like something has gone wrong if they are poking through.

But the structure holds everything up. Like it gives it shape and form and makes it look good. In the piece, he talks specifically about one piece that he just felt vexed by until he had the moment of epiphany, which he describes, that made everything fall into place, and then it worked.

But these essays are so smart, but also playful and friendly. Like, "Hey, Debbie, let me tell you some things I've learned about what makes good writing work and what prevented the writing from work." Oh, we talked about books that just work. What prevented the writing from just working until these certain things were implemented. But he talks about how he researches, puts together pieces, and then edits it, ooh, with so many details. Just absolutely fascinating. You might care about the behind-the-scenes.

[00:36:14] And I wonder if one of the reasons you like books with structure is you like to get at all sides of your stories. This is nonfiction, but I wonder if this would be an interesting way to get at all sides of the stories you enjoy reading. It really might not be, but you could learn something about yourself if you wanted to give it a try. That's Draft No. 4 by John McPhee.

Now, the direction I thought we were going to is a place that I thought might be your comfort zone. You know, I suppose, like Like Water for Chocolate, it does happen in a different... I mean, turn-of-the-century Mexican Revolution. Laura Esquivel did not write it at that time, so she's got a... It's not historical fiction like top billing, but that is present. But I was thinking about the historical fiction of Kate Quinn, specifically... Oh, now I'm blanking on the title of the book. What's it called? The Briar Club. Is this a book you're familiar with?

[00:36:54] DEBBIE: I have heard of it. It may even be on my Want to Read list. But tell me more.

ANNE: So Kate Quinn's newest book is in the sci-fi fantasy direction, if that makes your ears perk up. But this book, The Briar Club, is more along the lines of what regular Kate Quinn readers have come to expect from her. This book is set during the McCarthy era in Washington, DC, and it takes place almost entirely in this residence called the Briarwood House that works as a women's boarding house run by a landlord that you are not going to like very much. She is not your likable character in this story, but there are lots of likable characters and quirky characters who live in the house.

[00:37:50] So in the shape of the book, we hear from each of the house's residents in turn, but only once. So every resident has her moment on the stage, and then she leaves, and you find out what happened to her later because you're going to want to know, "Oh my gosh, how does that story end?" You hear it from someone else's point of view, and you learn about what she longs for in 1950s DC and why she's there by herself in a women's boarding house with a not-very-nice landlord, and you learn the secret she's keeping from her housemates.

That might not sound wholly unusual, but the thing I really like is the house weighs in constantly. You hear from the house itself more than once. And the house has its own strong opinions about what happens within its walls. The house has been around longer than any of the residents, so in the opening chapter, it tells you some of its sordid history, and then we see things through until the end.

[00:38:57] So you have that structure. You have interesting characters with strong personalities, which is another way I might interpret quirky, if that doesn't sound too off-base to you. And for readers who enjoy history, mystery, stories of complex relationships, secrets, there's a little bit of a magical vibe going on here, and I mean, a good story well told. How does that sound to you?

DEBBIE: That sounds good, too. Do you know about how long that one is?

ANNE: Okay. I listened to the audiobook, which clocked in at 15 hours, so I'm going to say that's like a 400-pager.

DEBBIE: Okay.

ANNE: It's 432 pages.

DEBBIE: Perfect. I love the idea of the house weighing in.

ANNE: It's fun. Now, this one we talked about on What Should I Read Next?. So it may sound familiar as I describe it, but I'm wondering about One Woman Show by Christine Coulson. Coulson is bringing her background to this work in a strong way. She worked at the Met in New York City for decades, and one of her last jobs there before... You know, I was presuming she quit to write fiction, but that's not necessarily true. But one of her last jobs there was writing the 75-word little wall labels for the museum's new British galleries, you know, like the little curatorial notes that appear alongside each work, and she thought, "You know, what if I wrote a novel in that form?" And that's what this is.

[00:40:35] One Woman Show is the life story of this fictional woman named Kitty Whitaker, and it is told solely through these fictional museum wall labels. It's about a 20th-century woman who utterly transforms herself over the course of her lifetime.

This looks like a 200-page book-length manuscript. There's only 75-ish words on each page. You could read this in one sitting. And if you are a fan of an interesting structure or if you're just a nerd about all the different ways a story can be written, we say nerd with great affection around here, or if you really love art, design, museum stories, this would be a good pick for any of those readers. How does that sound?

DEBBIE: That sounds amazing because, which just popped into my brain, my favorite book as a child was From the Mixed-Up Files of Mrs. Basil E. Frankweiler. It's hard to not-

[00:41:38] ANNE: I'm laughing because it brings me delight to remember that book exists.

DEBBIE: Oh, I love that book. So this, I don't know, like the Met and the... Yeah, this sounds fantastic.

ANNE: Okay. I'm glad to hear it. I'm not sure how you'll think about this one, if this might be t- well, you know what? I don't know what you think, but you're here. You can tell me, Debbie. Have you read Trust by Hernan Diaz?

DEBBIE: No.

ANNE: Okay. This is literary historical fiction. It's a book within a book within a book, and it's told in four distinct parts, and each one, in order, subtly changes the meaning of what came before, subtly changes the meaning of what came before that, and then turns the whole thing on its head in the final section.

This is set in the early 20th century. It centers around the Wall Street crash of 1929 and goes on into the '30s. So part one is a biographical novel based on the life of an infamous Wall Street trader who, unlike everyone else, basically flourished after the market crash of 1929.

[00:42:46] Part two is an unfinished draft of the autobiography the trader began writing with the help of a ghostwriter to correct the manuscript we just read in part one. Part three is the ghostwriter's story about writing that story, and part four I cannot tell you, because that would be a huge spoiler, but it just blows up the whole thing.

Now, I wonder what you'll think about the emotional tone, but strong characters, interesting characters. Is there a likable character? There's a wry detachment in much of this, but yeah, I think you'll enjoy hanging out with some of these people. You really won't like others, but you're not supposed to.

There are diary excerpts in the story, which makes me think about your love for epistolary writing. But this is one of those books where every time you think you know the story, whoops, you get new information that changes it entirely. How is this sounding?

DEBBIE: That sounds excellent also. I love that.

[00:43:47] ANNE: All right. Now, I am sorry to say that this is not fantastical in any way, but Hernan Diaz's next work is. Somehow in my mind that feels like it helps with the genre thing. It does not. It really does not at all. Okay, let's do two more for some variety.

DEBBIE: Okay.

ANNE: I didn't expect to camp out so much in the historical space, but that's where we are. There's a new memoir out called Troika by Irena Smith. Is this a book you're familiar with?

DEBBIE: It's not.

ANNE: Okay. Listeners, we read this in Modern Mrs Darcy Book Club in September. If you're thinking, "Why have I heard of that?" This is a short memoir that you could read very quickly. It unfolds over the course of a weekend, road trip, actually, and it's a multi-generational tale of three women in one family. One is in her early 20s, one is right about 50, and one is in her 70s. Grandmother, mother, daughter.

[00:44:40] The middle generation is the narrator, and they're going on a road trip, and you are going to hear why, where are they going, what are they up to, what are they doing, but in a way that I have not mapped. I wonder what Irena Smith's outline looks like for this book, or what her chart of scenes on the wall looks like.

But what they are going on is their own sort of odyssey. She is constantly name-checking The Odyssey and many works of classics and ancient literature constantly throughout the story, not just in reference to her love of literature, but also referencing her own life and history.

This is an immigrant story. Her parents, her mother in the car with her, came to the US when she was young, like in grade school. They moved to California. And she talks about growing up between those two worlds and navigating their new world and what that was like, and the stories that were told about the Russian homeland, and going back and forth culturally.

[00:45:53] To give you an idea of the tone of this story, The White Lotus season 2 is also constantly referenced in this story and used as a storytelling device. And this book spoils The White Lotus season 2 and its ending. So readers and Debbie, take note. That is what you're in for. But I wonder if you would enjoy this ride in the car that, in one sense, has a tight chronology. They get in the car, they go for the weekend, they come back, but on the other, wanders all over the place with the help of ancient literature and The White Lotus season 2. How's that sounding?

DEBBIE: That sounds really good, too. I love the nod to the classics and relevant cultural stories. I like that. I like that a lot.

ANNE: Okay, I'm glad to hear it. And we are going to close with a book that I've talked about on the podcast before, but not for a while. I just checked. It's Lovely War by Julie Berry. Have you read this one?

DEBBIE: I have not.

[00:47:00] ANNE: Okay. This is a lot of fun, and this is one of those books that I've heard a lot from readers, "I didn't think that was the book for me, but oh my gosh, I'm so glad I found it." This is historical fantasy that combines a World War I story, a love story, and Greek mythology. The structure is unlike anything I've ever read because in the opening chapter, Aphrodite and Ares, like yes, the Greek gods, walk into a swanky Manhattan hotel during World War II, and soon enough, Aphrodite's husband, Hephaestus, challenges her to show him what love really looks like.

So they're placing a bet on the mere mortals, as the gods want to do. So she says, "Have I got something to show you." And in intercut scenes, she takes the reader back in time to meet four young lovers in 1917 Britain, and she walks us through how each couple fell in love, what they mean to each other, the obstacles in their way, how love is going to win out. So we have these poignant scenes set in 1917, and then we're whooshed back to the Manhattan hotel where the gods are fighting over and over and over again. How's that sounding?

[00:48:19] DEBBIE: That also sounds intriguing. I love the Greek mythology nod. I love that.

ANNE: All right. Debbie, we'll recap, readers, for the books we put on Debbie's plate, but how are you feeling about your interesting structure theory?

DEBBIE: I think you have nailed it. I mean, everything that you've recommended feels like it's totally on spot for the challenge, the interesting structure, and they all sound great. They all sound good.

ANNE: All right. Now it's up to you to road test it. I'll be curious to hear how it goes. The books we talked about today: John McPhee's Draft No. 4, The Briar Club by Kate Quinn, One Woman Show by Christine Coulson, Trust by Hernan Diaz, Troika by Irena Smith, and Lovely War by Julie Berry. Debbie, what sounds good? What do you think you might pick up next?

[00:49:18] DEBBIE: I mean, truly, truly, I think I'll probably tackle them all eventually. They do sound perfect. I think it's a toss-up between One Woman Show and Trust. I don't know. If I had to pick between those two, I could only pick one, which one would you recommend?

ANNE: I don't know, but here's how I would decide. I'd ask myself, do I want an encapsulated reading experience? Because One Woman Show, truly, you will get through very, very quickly. That's going to be over and done. Trust will be a multi-day journey, perhaps multi-week journey for some readers. So I would just let that decide, instead of weighing any other merits of the books. I don't know if you like to let the library decide, if you want to look for something good on audio. I listened to Trust on audio, it was phenomenal. I think I'd want to look at One Woman Show. So if any of those factors help you decide very quickly in a way that doesn't feel as much like a value judgment.

[00:50:26] DEBBIE: Yeah. Well, that's actually perfect because I usually have a book and an audio going at the same time, so I'll do both of those at the same time. I love it.

ANNE: Okay. Debbie, this has been a delight. Thank you so much for talking books with me.

DEBBIE: This has been so much fun, just like a dream come true. Super fun. I, also just if you don't mind, want to say one thing in light of last week's loss. I just think you should know, I see you as the Dolly Parton of the reading world. I do. I just think you are warm and kind and super smart, but not like this intimidating way, and you just bring joy to people.

ANNE: Aw, that is the kindest. Thank you so much.

[00:51:11] DEBBIE: Well, thank you. This has really been a pleasure.

ANNE: Hey readers, I hope you enjoyed my conversation with Debbie, and I'd love to hear what you think she should read next. Find Debbie on Instagram @debbielday, and find the full list of titles we talked about today at whatshouldireadnextpodcast.com.

Find us on Instagram and tag us in your reading posts and stories @whatshouldireadnext. My personal account is @annebogel.

Keep up with our latest episodes and other news like events, new merch, and more by joining our email list. Sign up at whatshouldireadnextpodcast.com/newsletter.

Make sure you're following in Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Overcast, wherever you get your podcasts. This makes it easy to get each week's new episode automatically in your feed, and it helps tell networks that you like our show and you'd like us to keep doing it.

[00:52:13] Thanks to the people who make this show happen. What Should I Read Next? is created each week by executive producer Will Bogel, Media production specialist Holly Wielkoszewski, social media manager and editor Leigh Kramer, community coordinator Brigid Misselhorn, community manager Shannan Malone, and our whole team at What Should I Read Next? and Modern Mrs. Darcy HQ. Plus the audio whizzes at Studio D Podcast Production.

Readers, that's it for this episode. Thanks so much for listening. And as Rainer Maria Rilke said, "Ah, how good it is to be among people who are reading." Happy reading, everyone.

Like Water for Chocolate by Laura Esquivel
The School of Essential Ingredients by Erica Bauermeister
Where’d You Go, Bernadette by Maria Semple
• Theo of Golden by Allen Levi
• The Only Plane in the Sky by Garrett M. Graff (Audio edition)
• North Woods by Daniel Mason
• Love & Saffron by Kim Fay
• The Correspondent by Virginia Evans
• Fresh Water for Flowers by Valérie Perrin, translated by Hildegarde Serle
• Tata by Valérie Perrin, translated by Hildegarde Serle
▵ Midnight Sun by Stephenie Meyer
• No Two Persons by Erica Bauermeister
• Partita by Barbara Kingsolver
• Draft No. 4 by John McPhee 
• Oranges by John McPhee
• The Briar Club by Kate Quinn
• One Woman Show by Christine Coulson 
• From the Mixed-Up Files of Mrs. Basil E. Frankweiler by E.L. Konigsburg
• Trust by Hernan Diaz (Audio edition)
• Troika by Irena Smith
• Lovely War by Julie Berry

: Guest favorite book
▵: A book they didn’t love

• 10 novels told in interconnected short stories
• Please support our sponsors.

The post Books that just WORK for me appeared first on Modern Mrs Darcy.

I’m back with the latest episode in a new-ish series in which I invite a team member to join me in recommending titles for a guest. I am thrilled to welcome our Patreon community manager, Shannan Malone, to co-host with me as we chat with Lindsey Bloodworth.

Lindsey is a mom to two boys who lives in Homewood, Alabama. She’s found joy and community in a mom’s workout group that she’s managed to turn into a book club, as well as through another book club at her local indie bookstore.

Lindsey wrote in because she would love to hear ideas for books her community of moms would enjoy reading and discussing together. Lindsey’s found that having other moms to chat with through all of life’s small and big moments has been really important to her, and she’s enjoyed using books to spark these conversations.

Shannan also lives in Alabama and in a prior life ran the Rocket City Mom Virtual Book Club for 10 years, where they read over 60 books together. So when she saw Lindsey’s query, Shannan knew she had ideas to share. Today, we will see what types of books we can put on Lindsey’s reading radar that might make for great conversations with either one of her book clubs.

Please share your suggestions for highly talk-about-able books by leaving a comment below.

We’ve had some big changes lately over on Patreon, adding new ways to enjoy our show and support everything we do here. Our classic membership is now titled “Bonuses & Events” – nothing’s changed about that membership, its price, or what it includes. But we’ve added two new options this summer. The first is our Ad-Free Episodes Tier for $5/month, which delivers weekly episodes of What Should I Read Next? without the ads. We also rolled out our Patreon All-Inclusive Tier for $10/month, which includes everything we do on Patreon: our weekly bonus episodes, live events like our Fall Book Preview and Summer Reading Guide Unboxing, and weekly ad-free episodes of WSIRN. We are so grateful for the moral and financial support our patrons provide. If you’re a patron: thank you! If not, consider joining us: check out the options and sign up for a monthly or annual membership at patreon.com/whatshouldireadnext.

LINDSEY BLOODWORTH: My friend Laura, I think, said it best for that book. She said, "Hated it. Five stars."

ANNE BOGEL: Hey readers, I'm Anne Bogel, and this is What Should I Read Next?. Welcome to the show that's dedicated to answering the question that plagues every reader, what should I read next? We don't get bossy on this show. What we will do here is give you the information you need to choose your next read. Every week we'll talk all things books and reading, and do a little literary matchmaking with one guest.

[00:00:43] Readers, as you will hear shortly, I am joined in today's episode by team member Shannan Malone, whose services are What Should I Read Next? Patreon Community Manager. Before we jump in, Shannan and I want to tell you more about what you'll find when you join us on Patreon.

We've had some big changes lately, adding new ways to enjoy our show and support what we do here. And when you listen to our Patreon bonus episodes each Friday, you hear from me, of course, and also from members of the Modern Mrs. Darcy and What Should I Read Next? team, which I know many of you really enjoy.

We have three different options for Patreon memberships. Our classic membership is now titled Bonuses and Events. Nothing has changed about that membership, its price, or what it includes, but we've added two new options this summer that necessitated the name change.

The first new tier is our ad-free episodes tier for $5 a month. This gets you weekly episodes of this show, What Should I Read Next? without the ads. We also rolled out our Patreon all-inclusive tier for $10 a month.

[00:01:41] This is exactly what it sounds like. It includes everything we do on Patreon, which is our weekly bonus episodes, live events, like our Fall Book Preview and Summer Reading Guide unboxing, and those new weekly ad-free episodes of What Should I Read Next? We are so grateful for the moral support and also financial support our patrons provide week in and week out. Our patrons truly make it possible for us to do what we do, and that really means paying the bills, as well as boost our morale and give us input.

If you're a patron, thank you. If not, consider joining us and helping us make the show. Check out the options and sign up for a monthly or annual membership at your tier choice at patreon.com/whatshouldIreadnext.

Readers, today's format is new-ish to us. It's one in which I invite a team member to join me in recommending titles for a guest. As you may recall from back in episode 523, when I was joined by team member Ginger Horton, sometimes I see a guest submission come across my screen and think, "Oh, I know just the team member I want to have that conversation with and just the team member that reader wants to recommend books to them."

[00:02:51] Today is one of those episodes. I am thrilled to welcome our Patreon community manager, Shannan Malone, to co-host with me. We are chatting with Lindsey Bloodworth, who's joining us from Homewood, Alabama.

Lindsey is a mom to two boys, and she's found joy and community in her book clubs, in a mom's workout group that she's managed to turn into a book club, as well as through another book club at her local indie bookstore.

Lindsey wrote in because she would love to hear ideas for books her community of moms would enjoy reading and discussing together. She's got a wrinkle she's adding to that question, as you will hear. Lindsey's found that having other moms to chat with through all of life's small and big moments has been really important to her, and she's enjoyed using books to spark these conversations.

Shannan also lives in Alabama and in a prior life ran the Rocket City Mom Virtual Book Club for 10 years, where they read over 60 books together. So when she saw Lindsey's she knew she had ideas.

[00:03:45] Today, we will see what types of books we can put on Lindsey's reading radar that might make for great conversations with either one of her book clubs. Readers, I really enjoyed this. Let's get to it.

Lindsey, Shannan, welcome to the show.

LINDSEY: Thanks, Anne.

SHANNAN MALONE: Hello.

ANNE: We always say that reading is better together, and I love that we have a literary trio today. So, like we said in the intro, we are exploring how to bring our team members on and let them speak from their readerly expertise into our listeners' and guests' lives. Because, Shannan, you read very differently from me.

SHANNAN: Yes.

ANNE: Yes. And our readers contain multitudes. Lindsey, we're so glad you're here today. Thank you for doing this for the second or third time, depending on how you're counting, in What Should I Read Next? history. And listeners, if there's a particular team member that you think you are a book twin of, and you'd like to hop on and get their recommendations, I mean, I'll chime in, but, Shannan, I'm deferring to you today, we would love to have you. That page is at whatshouldireadnextpodcast.com/guest. And Lindsey, that's how you came our way today. Thanks so much for being here.

[00:04:55] LINDSEY: I'm excited to be here after all of these years and all of the attempted submissions.

ANNE: You know, we could pull up that history just for fun. What made you think that now was the time to send in the submission that you did?

LINDSEY: I'm a mom. I live in Homewood, Alabama. I've got two little boys. What made me send in the submission this time was I'm in two book clubs, but one of them is for part of, I guess, my job. I'm a part-time coach for a moms' stroller workout group called Fit4Mom Birmingham. And so, part of the workout is moms can bring their kids in the stroller. We all work out outside together in the, well, sometimes the Alabama heat. The beautiful way to say it is in the sunshine and fresh air.

But it's a really great supportive community of moms. Back in 2022, when I became a coach, they also asked me to start a book club, and I said, yes, with one condition. And that is that I got to pick the books because I wasn't, this is selfish and I know it, but I wasn't interested in reading what someone else wanted to read with my limited reading time with, at the time, two very young kids. And so, I said, "Yes, I'd love to, but everybody has to read what I want to read."

[00:06:21] Mostly, I still pick the books. Sometimes I text another mom who reads a lot or we'll talk about it at book club. Like my friend Michelle recently read Heart the Lover and she said she had listened to the audio three times already on Hoopla. And I thought, "Well, if you've read it three times, we should do it as a book choice."

So, after our conversation, our book club in June, we did Yesteryear and had such an interesting conversation, such a varied conversation about current events and influencer life and how that overlaps with motherhood and decisions that we make every day and how we're influenced whether we know it or not and how we are complicit in the culture and how we also don't like it at the same time. We just had such a great conversation, even with the moms who hadn't finished the book yet, that I thought, "This is what I want more of. More books that we can talk about, even if everybody in the room hasn't finished it." So, I went home and applied to get our book club on the show.

[00:07:38] ANNE: I love it.

LINDSEY: That was the ticket.

ANNE: I love it. That was submission number what?

LINDSEY: Four, maybe.

ANNE: Okay. Lindsey, your first submission, it appears, was in November 2018. Do you remember the books you love? They're different from the books we're talking about today. Actually, I think one would be perfect for your book club.

LINDSEY: I think that one was when I wanted to be... was that the infertility one or when I was applying to be a teacher? Or I wanted more books that were diverse, maybe for my classroom? I don't know. I have no idea what I put in 2018.

ANNE: Well, the books you loved... Well, I could send it to you if you'd like to check it out, take a walk down memory lane. But you loved The Road, To Kill a Mockingbird-

LINDSEY: Yes, I did.

ANNE: And Tell Me More by Kelly Corrigan, which if you haven't read in book club, might be worth resurfacing.

LINDSEY: We haven't done Tell Me More. But as I was looking through the list this morning of all the past books we've done, I thought, "Why haven't we done Tell Me More?"

[00:08:37] ANNE: Maybe because it's really hard. It's really hard in a lot of ways.

LINDSEY: It is. You have to have the right time of year. You're not going to do that in December. I'm just not going to do that with my book club in December. That's too heavy. But yeah, Tell Me More is a good one.

ANNE: But I don't want to get ahead of ourselves as we talk about what might be suitable and what might not be suitable and more. Lindsey, you participate in two book clubs: one you shepherd, one you just get to come and talk books. Tell us more about your reading life.

LINDSEY: I love, I tell people this all the time, I love all book things and all book people. I think y'all say on this show, sometimes book people are the best people. And I really think that's true. So, I'm in a book club through my local independent bookstore, Little Professor.

ANNE: Aw. I got to go there once. It's such a lovely store.

[00:09:30] LINDSEY: I've been in it for five years. Kathleen runs the literary fiction group there. It's a really great intergenerational group of readers. I tend to be on the younger side of that group. It just really enriches, I think, my reading experience. Even if I don't particularly enjoy the book, having the chance to talk about it with a group of people, especially from different lived experiences, is really helpful. So, there's the book club part of my reading life. And being in the two book clubs really shapes my month. Although I'm a book club procrastinator, the number of times I am finishing a book club book the day of or two days before is far more often than not. I would say 85% of the time.

ANNE: And the bright side is it's very top of mind.

LINDSEY: It is. That's the reason I do it. I have a book club this Saturday, and I'm 70% of the way through the book and I'm astonished at myself.

ANNE: What's the book?

[00:10:38] LINDSEY: Theo of Golden. It's for our church retreat. That's a one-off separate book discussion. But yeah, other part of my reading life, I just really... I don't feel like my true self if I'm not reading every day. So, most of the time that's reading before bed. I always have more than one book going, partly because of the book clubs. So, something a little more literary, a little more contemporary, maybe a memoir. And then I'm almost always reading romance at night.

ANNE: That sounds great.

LINDSEY: It's a nice balance.

ANNE: Now, Lindsey, I know it's your book club, the one that you choose the books for, that brought you here today. I'd love to hear more about finding these books that open the door to community and conversation. And that is something... I mean, I love all things books and reading and however you put it, I feel like we should put that on a sticker.

[00:11:37] But you touched on how something I love about reading is you get to springboard into conversations about topics that really matter really quickly in a way that feels natural and not weird or awkward, but just that's what books do. And I'm interested in hearing more about the flavor you're looking for and what's worked before. And I wonder if that means we should start by talking about the books you brought to the show today.

LINDSEY: Yeah, we can. Or I can tell you a little bit about the makeup of the club and why it is the way that it is.

ANNE: Yeah. Let's start there.

LINDSEY: So, FIT4MOM brings moms from all walks of life. But traditionally, or not traditionally, historically it's been moms with younger kids. Although now there's this group of us that's been together, a lot more of our kids are in school and they're not just tiny babies anymore. So having book club on the calendar every month is also a good moms night out opportunity.

[00:12:40] It's a book club that is intentionally always open to any mom. So if they suddenly have a free night, they can feel free to come. I don't ever want a mom to feel like they can't come to book club because they haven't read the book. So when I was thinking about applying to be on the show, I thought it's going to be a funny request to say, "Hey, Anne, please give me books for book club that people don't have to read." You know, like...

ANNE: Okay. That may sound silly, but how many of us listening have been so excited to go to like an author event at the bookstore where the whole point is this book is new, you know nothing, you haven't read it yet, but let's talk about it anyway. There's value there.

LINDSEY: Oh, absolutely.

ANNE: So I hear what you're saying, and also, I don't want you to minimize the value of what you're doing and what this brings people.

[00:13:35] LINDSEY: And that's what I've seen happen. So many times moms... well, and there was even one book that I didn't finish. But moms just really connect with what we're talking about. Whether it's one of the books I'm going to talk about later is What Kind of Paradise by Janelle Brown, whether it's what role does technology play in the way that we raise our children. We've done a few parenting self-help books where, you know, it doesn't matter if you've read it because you can share your opinion on the topic. But generally, those are not the kind of books we're reading. But it's overall really important to me and other people in the group that it just remain this open space where you can come, you can connect with the moms there, and that you don't feel isolated if you don't know the plot of the book.

We do tell people they will get spoilers. Yesteryear was the only book we chose where I almost told people, "Don't come if you haven't finished it." But I didn't. And the discussion was better for it.

[00:14:42] ANNE: Lindsey, that is good information thinking through hospitality being a leading filter. And then what that means. It means the door is open, even on short notice, even if you have no hope of even obtaining the book before you show up to a set to talk about the topics in it. Okay, so theme forward, or books with like a strong premise that you can emotionally really step into quickly?

LINDSEY: Mm-hmm.

ANNE: Okay Can we hear now what that looks like with the actual titles?

LINDSEY: Sure.

ANNE: Okay. You know how this works. You have brought three books that your book club loved, one book, they didn't, and what you've been reading lately, and Shannan and I are going to explore options for possible future book club selections.

LINDSEY: Sounds good.

ANNE: Lindsey, how did you choose these?

[00:15:39] LINDSEY: I chose the three books today based on overall the best conversations that we've had, the ones that have gotten us kicked out of the restaurant at 10:30. We meet at 7:00 PM, and it is not rare for us to shut down the local restaurant that we're at. Because we sit outside, and they don't close until 10:00 PM. So we are often the last ones gone. And so it's those conversations that I thought we were definitely kicked out. Those are the ones I chose.

ANNE: All right. What's the first book that not quite kept you up all night, but into the night?

LINDSEY: Kept us out into the night. The first book is What Kind of Paradise by Janelle Brown. I actually found out about it through the Summer Reading Guide. I think it was a Summer Reading Guide. I was really intrigued by the premise. Then our local bookstore also did it as a book club choice, but for a group I'm not in. And I heard that they had a phenomenal discussion. And I thought, "Okay, I heard about it in two places. I know it's about parenthood and technology. We'll read it."

[00:16:52] So What Kind of Paradise ended up being a really great choice because of the conversations the book brings up with technology and protecting our kids. The dad in the book makes the decision to take his daughter into the woods and live there so that they aren't, I guess, poisoned would be the good word to use there. They aren't poisoned by the internet. This is the early '90s with the tech boom. So she's really completely isolated and cut off from society out there.

And as moms in 2026, though 2025 at the time, I feel like what we hear as moms often is the danger of screen time. There are so many dangers online. And we know these things to be true. And we have young kids. And so we're always wrestling with these questions of what limitations do we put in place? When and at what ages do our kids get certain freedoms? Because all of us have, I think the oldest kid, typically, of a mom that comes to our book club is 12. So we don't have a lot of experienced moms in the group that can say, "Oh, my kid's in college, here's how it went for me."

[00:18:21] So I think that does kind of change the conversation that we're having. And What Kind of Paradise really took this idea of parenthood and protecting our kids. And we were able to have a conversation separate from the plot of the book, even though we had plenty of commentary around that because it's so sensational and fun. Well, fun may be the bad word for it.

ANNE: It's big. Lots of big actions and big feelings in that story.

LINDSEY: Yes. So What Kind of Paradise was really a great inroad for a lot of serious and thoughtful conversation.

ANNE: What lingers with you from that conversation, like now that we're probably more than a year out from having it?

LINDSEY: I think overall, it's that we're all struggling with this question of how far is too far in protecting your children? The book does an excellent job of showing that in the extreme. Most people won't take their kids to the woods and cut them off from technology and then decide to publish a manifesto and have their kid learn coding anyway, which is hypocritical, but that's okay. That was a fun side conversation.

[00:19:37] ANNE: Well, that's something to talk about.

LINDSEY: Yeah. But I think it's just like, we're all struggling in this parenthood thing together, and we're all also fearful together, but it's a little less scary because at least we're together trying to figure it out. And every family is going to make a different choice. It can be interesting to hear about the choices other families are making with screen time and how some kids are more sensitive than others to different shows, different books. So every family handles it differently. And I think the more you talk to real people in your community about what's working in their family, just the easier, maybe at least thinking about it, can be. I hope that makes sense.

ANNE: I think so. I think so. Lindsey, what's the second book you all really loved?

[00:20:34] LINDSEY: The second one was actually within our first year of the book club and it was Untamed by Glennon Doyle. We have done a few memoirs over the years, but this was our first one. And it worked really well just logistically as a book club choice because it's got short essays. Again, if you didn't get very far in the book, that's fine because you could say, "Well, I did read this one essay and I really loved it."

But I think this was a great book for a lot of moms to talk about their full selves outside of motherhood, but with motherhood being an integral part of who they are. Untamed, we got to have two really great conversations. One was about past religious history and trauma — I would put the word trauma on it — and how that informs all of us today, no matter what decisions we're making with faith in our families.

[00:21:38] And then also we had some really more concrete discussions. Like there's a great essay in Untamed about talking to boys about pornography. Glennon said something to a friend of hers where... I think I'm close to what she says, but she says like, "Don't leave that boy alone in the dark by himself to figure out this conversation." She has this metaphor with like don't let your son walk alone in the dark woods that is pornography and not go in there with a flashlight and help him out. It feels awkward, but like, do you really want your kid walking alone in the dark? And I thought, "No, because I have two boys." Not that people shouldn't also have this conversation with girls, but for me as a mom of boys, it hit differently. So we were also able to share our individual reactions to specific essays that really resonated for us. That one was mine.

[00:22:39] ANNE: So she's putting, I mean, not easy, relevant topics in front of you one after one and saying, "Talk about this. Talk about this. Don't you want to talk about that?"

LINDSEY: Yes.

ANNE: "Here's a jumping off point."

LINDSEY: Right. And I think it's that jumping off point that provided fantastic discussion. I mean, that was in 2023. So a lot of the core members of the book club have been together that long. And because of the nature of the group and the nature of people's schedules, we have people coming in and out all the time. But there is a core group of moms that have been together. And I think books like Untamed that have allowed us to share deeper parts of ourselves really helped build the backbone of the group and that trust and vulnerability in one another.

[00:23:35] ANNE: That's good to hear. Something else I'm noticing is that with a book like Untamed, and it's been a long time since I've read it, but she puts a lot of different topics on the table. Just going back to the idea of hospitality and creating easy points of entry for your moms coming in, it seems like there are more and less potentially vulnerable conversation points so that people can engage at a level that feels comfortable to them. Is there something there?

LINDSEY: No, I think there's a lot there. I don't know that I have put that to words myself. So that's really helpful. Because you don't want to make a mom who doesn't know us yet say, "Hello, tell us all of your past religious trauma. Go."

ANNE: We're talking about our deepest, darkest secrets.

LINDSEY: But if you've been in this group for three going on four years, you may be more willing to share. And then that can also show a level of openness to our newer moms to say, "Oh, this might actually be a safe place where these moms are being authentic." That's the hope.

[00:24:51] ANNE: Next, process of elimination. Lindsey, I think we have the book that prompted the submission. What's the third book your book club loved?

LINDSEY: So the third book we loved was Yesteryear by Caro Claire Burke. This book is everywhere right now. I told our book club, I don't know if this is true or not, but when I chose it, I told them it was the buzziest book of the year. In our experience, that has been true. And so many of the moms said, "Oh my gosh, I've been wanting to read this." So I think it was a good choice.

But because it has to deal or it deals with influencer culture, it deals with motherhood, the motherhood you see on screen, on camera through Instagram, or maybe also TikTok. I don't know. I don't do TikTok. I'm not cool enough. So you have the motherhood on screen, and then you have the true character as presented in the book, who has a completely different personality from her influencer personality.

[00:25:57] The book deals with the repercussions of that. And then also the main character suddenly, and you know this from the book jacket, so it's not a spoiler, unless you're a really cool reader that doesn't read book jackets. That would probably be my preferred way to enter books most of the time. But she suddenly wakes up in 1850s-ish America, and she's having to live this old western, quote, yesteryear life. She's having to make her own bread for real and not just in a fancy, you know, sourdough cast iron... I don't know. What are they called? I don't know. Pan. But she's actually having to work the land and wash laundry by hand.

[00:26:55] So that was the premise that really hooked us. And that, oh, this influencer is going to actually have to live by the values that she espouses online. What does that look like? And so Yesteryear... we had a really fun time. My friend Jane suggested we do a butter party because there was homemade butter in the book. And so everybody brought a butter-themed treat.

ANNE: Wait, so that happened? You made that happen?

LINDSEY: Yes. Really, Jane made it happen.

ANNE: Tell us what was on the table, please.

LINDSEY: Some people brought homemade bread, but we also had Texas Roadhouse rolls and their butter. We just had butter cookies from Trader Joe's. There were Butterfingers. I brought Butterbeer Goldfish from Harry Potter and found those at Costco.

ANNE: I didn't know that was a thing.

[00:27:47] LINDSEY: It was very clear, like, this is what the moms bring to a butter party. But also just all sorts of varieties of butter, which was fun. And then we made our own butter from something someone had seen on Instagram, which is you can put some ingredient that makes butter. I feel like I should know. Cream?

ANNE: I think it's cream.

SHANNAN: Yeah, cream.

LINDSEY: In a Mason jar, and then you just shake it until it makes butter. And so we passed it around while we talked about the book and made our own butter.

SHANNAN: I love that.

LINDSEY: Jane gets all the credit here. But so that was fun. And sort of a tongue in cheek, you know, where we're talking about influencer culture, but yet also we're actively doing this thing to see if it works that we saw on Instagram by making this butter.

[00:28:42] So it was fun. But then the conversation we had about that kind of double life personality that the main character, I think her name is Natalie, had, and then the reflections on motherhood and what we see online and how sometimes we're like, "Oh, we want to do that." And then it's like, "Yeah, but that's not real." Or maybe it is real. But we need to be really careful and ask a lot of questions and keep in mind that it's a produced video that we're seeing. And that's a huge part of the book.

But my friend Laura, I think, said it best for that book. She said, "Hated it. Five stars." Even if you hated the character, I think that book works best in community discussion. I can't imagine having read Yesteryear and not having a group of people to talk about it with for hours.

[00:29:44] ANNE: So nobody needs to hear my anecdotal experience with Yesteryear, but I'm about to share it anyway. So buzziest book of the year... honors. There has been no other book that I can recall ever where two friends have texted me five minutes apart and said, "Oh my gosh, Anne, have you read this? I just finished. We're talking about it with book club tomorrow. This was amazing," and, "Oh my gosh, Anne, have you read this? I despise this book. Why do people like it? It's my book club pick for next week." That's big feeling. They both love their conversations with their book club, by the way.

But also, I was out this weekend and a friend of mine said, "You work in books, right? Your job is books. I just finished Yesteryear. I need to talk about it. Are you my person? My brain is going to explode if I can't get some words out. Is that you?" I was like, "I feel like I've read it. You can tell me things you want." She said, "Where can I find someone who's read this book?" And I thought, "Well, you're a teacher."

LINDSEY: Everywhere.

ANNE: "You could probably whisper 'Yesteryear' in your class and like 2/3 of the heads in the room would swivel around. You could put a Post-It note on the teachers' lounge and say, 'Big thoughts, must share. Find me,' and you'd have a crowd."

[00:30:53] She said that she wasn't sure she wanted to admit to reading it in that setting.

SHANNAN: Oh, fair.

ANNE: So I said, "That was silly. Everybody's reading it. Like, it's not just you."

LINDSEY: Everybody's reading it.

ANNE: "It's never just you."

LINDSEY: I had a separate conversation with our pastor about it. She was on sabbatical, and we met up for coffee, and I was like, "Look, I'm not trying to make you be a minister right now. You're on sabbatical. Let's talk about Yesteryear." And talking about it with her was really a different conversation than with my book club, because my pastor really did not like Natalie. And I was like, "I think that's the point. We're not supposed to like Natalie." But that can be hard, because not every... Some people... I think if you have to have a character that you're rooting for, you should not read Yesteryear, because you're not... If that's going to make reading the book hard for you, life is only so long. You don't have to read all of the buzzy books.

[00:31:48] ANNE: But apparently you can read a book because it's buzzy and still learn something about yourself as a reader.

LINDSEY: Yes.

ANNE: And what you like in a reading experience-

LINDSEY: But it does go dark places, so...

ANNE: ...and what will really niggle at you?

LINDSEY: Sure.

ANNE: Or stronger, maybe. Do you all love a theme, like per the butter party, or is that just kind of a one-off?

LINDSEY: That was a one-off. I think in our best months, we would love to have a theme every month, but we don't. We do romance for Christmas. That is always a theme. It started a little on accident with a spicier book than intended. So we have done spicy romance for the last three years, but we don't like to eat spicy food or anything. We just have hot chocolate and cider and wear Christmas pajamas.

ANNE: Okay. That sounds fun.

LINDSEY: Oh, it's delightful.

ANNE: All right. Lindsey, tell us about a book that was not right for your book club, and we would like to hear what didn't work.

[00:32:50] LINDSEY: So the book that wasn't right for our book club was I Who Have Never Known Men by Jacqueline Harpman. And it didn't work because it was too literary. The premise was great. You know, this woman wakes up in, we think, a jail cell. There's no men. She's surrounded by women. She's constantly watched. What is going on? It's a great premise that sounds, in some ways, really contemporary.

Thematically I knew when I picked it that it would have some great connection points about feminism and modern womanhood, and what could this look like in an alternate reality? But it was just a little too out there in its presentation style. A lot of the moms that finished it, which wasn't actually that many, did not like that there wasn't really this resolution, that there was still a lot of ambiguity, is what they say.

[00:34:01] This is actually one that's maybe the only one in this book club that I've never finished. I had just read a similar book, well, a read-alike called The Wall that was also about an isolated woman, and that was part of the reason selfishly that I chose I Who Have Never Known Men, and it didn't land.

ANNE: I am wondering if quietly devastating and emotionally raw and merciless are just the wrong vibe for this group.

LINDSEY: Yes. I would say that is absolutely true. We don't mind a little bit of hope in our books.

ANNE: Don't mind as in it-

LINDSEY: We would prefer to have hope.

ANNE: If it's going to be bleak, it needs to have some moments of light or levity?

LINDSEY: Yes.

ANNE: Okay. So it doesn't have to come out on the balance towards hope, but like give you something.

[00:34:58] LINDSEY: Right. We did Talking at Night by Claire Daverley. I almost chose that one as a book that didn't work overall for the group because I think there was hope in it, but it was just a little too depressing throughout the book.

ANNE: I love that book. I'm so excited she finally has a new one. And also, I hear you. This is not the place for that kind of emotional balance.

LINDSEY: Mm-hmm.

ANNE: Okay. So, too far towards the bleak end of the spectrum? Or too much time in the bleak end of the spectrum.

LINDSEY: True.

ANNE: Okay. Okay, what have y'all been reading lately?

LINDSEY: With the theme of buzzy books this year, we just finished Strangers by Belle Burden. We actually met, well, as of this recording, like two nights ago.

ANNE: Okay. Fresh in mind.

[00:36:03] LINDSEY: And talked about that. That was another great discussion that people could join without having read the book if we just say, "Hey, this is about a couple during the pandemic. Wife finds out the husband cheated on her, and then he leaves, and in her experience, his entire personality changes. He becomes a stranger. Thoughts and feelings around that." That was an easy entry point for people.

But then was also just fun to have a conversation around... Well, again, fun may not be the right word. But interesting to have a conversation around that being somebody else's experience and how blindsiding that would be. But then also, a couple of the moms brought up, like, "Well, you know, I don't know that I have all of our financial passwords. You know, if this happened to me, or even if there was a terrible accident, I would like to know more financial information about my family."

ANNE: Like it's a big "what if".

[00:37:10] LINDSEY: Right. So that book just brings that up for people. So that was a great conversation. And everybody found it very compelling, even if we couldn't figure out why we all wanted to keep reading it. The number of moms that said, "I read that in two days," or, "I read that so fast," that was nice. Like, whatever about the writing style. And I think it's because it was so conversational, so approachable. It was originally written for, I think it was the Modern Love column. And so I think just that style of writing is really easy to digest even if the topic's difficult.

ANNE: I don't know if you went there, but there's also a conversation to be had about who gets to tell the story.

LINDSEY: We did.

ANNE: Okay.

LINDSEY: My friend Jordan kept saying, "But what is left out? But what's not in this book?" Which is such a helpful, I think any time you read a book...

[00:38:11] ANNE: Everybody needs a Jordan in their book club.

LINDSEY: Right?

ANNE: That's a good question.

LINDSEY: You need to know. And same thing, I think, like bringing us back to Yesteryear, when you're looking at social media, what's left out? What are you not seeing? And even analyzing our own digital input that we're receiving, I think is really important. And books like Yesteryear, and even books like Strangers can bring up. And we had great conversations around motherhood because our definitions of motherhood look very different than the way motherhood is presented in some ways in Strangers. And so we were able to have a conversation about that.

ANNE: And the legacies of the men and women in that family, I think she talks about specifically. You get to throw in a few comments about just like $18 million homes and...

[00:39:03] LINDSEY: I'm not trying to throw Belle Burden under a bus.

ANNE: Who gets custody of the yacht club.

LINDSEY: ...because she's already been thrown under, you know? But I mean, obviously there's this huge privilege component in that book that I think she addresses in the pages of the book. Does she address it as well as some of the news articles have? No.

ANNE: I just meant it's like a fantasy. Like it could be fun to talk about.

LINDSEY: Oh, it was so fun to talk about.

ANNE: All right, Lindsey, we are going to recap. Y'all loved, and this is your book club, because that's what we're focused on today, What Kind of Paradise by Janelle Brown, Untamed by Glennon Doyle, and Yesteryear by Caro Claire Burke. I Who Have Never Known Men by Jacqueline Harpman was not for you, and lately Strangers by Belle Burden has prompted an excellent conversation. I'm seeing a mix of fiction and non. Is that typical in a place you are interested in continuing in the future?

[00:40:04] LINDSEY: Yes. Overall we read mostly fiction, but it's been a while. I think part of the reason I chose Strangers was it had been a while since we'd done nonfiction. I think predominantly we will stay reading fiction and not switch to predominantly reading nonfiction, but I do like the mix. Like a couple mixed in every year of the 12 months of the year isn't a bad balance.

ANNE: Okay. And today I'm going to tell you what I hear we're looking for, and I want to hear what you would add to it. We're looking for books that may be very topical, that invite conversation on those topics without people necessarily having to read the book. And it's helpful to know that if you come to book club you might get spoilers. That's the agreement you all have arrived at. But you'd want people to be able to come, sometimes on short notice, and show up and have a great conversation that they will still be able to participate in, differently, but will be able to participate in whether or not at that moment in time they have read the book. I imagine lots of people who haven't read or finished the book leave and definitely want to read it because of the conversation.

LINDSEY: I would hope so.

[00:41:20] ANNE: So you would welcome, but I don't think it's a disqualifier not to have these, but books related to family and motherhood or that discuss big picture questions about the life stage that you all have in common and raising kids. What do we need to add? Discussable, shareable, great conversation discussability, very, very important. What else?

LINDSEY: I think you nailed it.

ANNE: Ooh, and the emotional tone.

LINDSEY: Yes.

ANNE: Okay.

LINDSEY: And with the caveat that I have to actually want to read it.

ANNE: Important note. Shannan, I hear you. Shannan, we're going to turn to you. Now readers, about half of our team reviews are What Should I Read Next? submissions, and we're looking for topics. We're looking at different life experiences and places around the world, and all kinds of variety that the actual reader is bringing to us.

[00:42:17] We're looking for books we haven't featured before, and we've been keeping an eye out for questions that maybe I'm not the best person to answer, but a team member can really speak to. Now, often this means a deep dive into romantasy or science fiction and fantasy, but Shannan, when you saw Lindsey's submission, you went, "Hang on. I have things to share."

SHANNAN: I might have some ideas. Yes.

ANNE: Handing the mic to you. Say more.

SHANNAN: Because of the Rocket City Mom Virtual Book Club that I ran for 10 years, I saw her submission, and I looked at it, I looked at the books that you liked, and I said, "Hmm, I've read some of those. Discussable. I think I have thoughts." So I sent your submission to Anne and said, "Hey, I have some ideas."

[00:43:09] Now, listening to you talk, I'm like, "I'm not sure whether these ideas are going to work for you as a whole," and I'm a little nervous about it, but I think they will. Also, we have this thing about being in Alabama. Red State. Also moms. And my book club at the time, we did shy away from the literary reads, so I thought, "I have a good list of about 60 books that Rocket City Mom has read, the Rocket City Mom Virtual Book Club read, and let me pull from those that I think might be interesting to you." So what I am presenting is backlist titles, and they would be good for your availability that you mentioned for all the members of the book club.

LINDSEY: Yes.

SHANNAN: However, if you all are readers, there is a chance that you have read some of these titles that I am going to present, on a personal level, and even maybe for book club. If you read it for book club, let me know. But on a personal level, when I looked at these selections, I said, Even if I've read it personally, I would want to reread it again for book club with the theme of motherhood, family, and those in my mind, which would make for a very different reading experience than if I just read it without that in mind. So that's a caveat I'm asking you to consider.

[00:44:40] As I was prepping this list, I'm very proud of the list, I have to say, and I kept saying, "I need to reread this. I need to reread this." And honestly, a lot of these on my list I have read twice already, and I want to reread them again. So...

LINDSEY: So if I pick them, you're just going to drive down from Huntsville to Birmingham and join the book club for the night.

SHANNAN: Don't tempt me with a good time, Lindsey. Don't tempt me with a good time. I believe the ones that I have selected will help with the theme. You can discuss on a theme. With Rocket City Mom Virtual Book Club, I always included at least one question. And remember, this was virtual and we did it typing on a computer. This was virtual before 2014 about is when we started this. But I always included a question that would get people to talking, and you didn't have to read the book to answer the question. So I'm bearing that in mind with the selections that I have here.

LINDSEY: Perfect.

[00:45:45] SHANNAN: The other thing I wanted to say about my selections are I'm leaning more toward you reading in being your full self. Not just motherhood issues. Your pick of Janelle Brown with technology and that conversation, that's great. My selections will look at more the full experience of a woman who happens to be a mother.

The Rocket City Mom Virtual Book Club really did not focus specifically on motherhood problems, but the full woman. I feel, this is my own personal soapbox, that as mothers we get kind of stuck in, ooh, mothers and children. It's always about the mother and always about the... You know, not the mother, I'm sorry. It's always about the children, and what I need to do for the child, and then I have the husband over here who's also, you know, needy and needing things. And a lot of what I read is mothers losing themselves. So my picks are going to be more toward that full self... and not just mother. So those are the little caveats that I have for my selections. I hope they work for you.

LINDSEY: No, I think that's great.

SHANNAN: Okay. Okay.

[00:47:05] ANNE: Okay. Shannan, love your criteria. What is your first recommendation for Lindsey?

SHANNAN: Okay. So I read a lot of nonfiction, Lindsey, and I love a good memoir. So I will say, if you have not, and this is a bonus pick, I'm starting with a bonus, if you have not read any Mary Laura Philpott... Okay, you're nodding. I can see you.

LINDSEY: I am. Sorry.

SHANNAN: Have you read any Mary Laura Philpott?

LINDSEY: Our book club did Bomb Shelter early on.

SHANNAN: Okay, good.

LINDSEY: And then maybe also I Miss You When I Blink.

SHANNAN: Great. Okay. So the main one that I have that's nonfiction, is Year of Yes: How to Dance, Stand in the Sun and Be Your Own Person by Shonda Rhimes. Have you read this one, Lindsey?

LINDSEY: I have not, and the book club hasn't either.

[00:47:59] SHANNAN: Awesome. So for those who don't know, this book came out in 2015. Shonda Rhimes is the force behind Grey's Anatomy, Scandal, and most recently Bridgerton. I am bringing this because she's also a woman of color, to bring some diversity to the book club selections, and it was the very first book that the Rocket City Mom Virtual Book Club read when we started it in 2014, 2015, so it has a special place in my heart.

It is about Rhimes' year-long commitment to saying yes to things that she would have normally said no. I was definitely with a newborn at the time when I read this book. And I was like, "No to everything. I am floundering. I can barely keep my head above water." But it was so great. It's funny. Laugh out loud funny. I was reading it and my husband had to stop asking me what was so funny, because he was asking me, like, every few minutes, and I'd be like, "This," and then, you know, finally he was like, "Okay, that's a funny book. I don't need to hear about all of that."

[00:49:19] But it's also poignant. I will say it's small as well. It's easy to read because Shonda Rhimes writes in a very conversational style. She could be sitting right next to you. The stories and anecdotes and chapters are very short. As a mom, it's great. You can pick it up and put it down. You can discuss, as you described when you were discussing Untamed. You can just read a story or a chapter and then have something to talk about. So that's what I think why I'm thinking it would be great for you.

The stories are about her life and how she became Shonda Rhimes, but also ultimately it's about taking care of oneself, and as moms, that's something we tend to leave out a lot. Including health, being the good girl, being afraid, and of course, motherhood. This is a very easy path to entry for a conversation. Highly, highly discussable. There's some things that I was like, "I'm not sure I agree with that," and then there were some things where like totally get that, changed my perspective on. I always love books that make me think differently about something. And there was a lot of that.

[00:50:34] While I was preparing for this, I was reviewing the book, and I noticed all of my highlights, and I was like, "Wow, I need a reminder about this stuff," because I think in the 10 years-ish that I have first read it, I've forgotten it. So I think that would be great for your book club.

Shonda Rhimes also reads the book, and though I haven't heard it on audio, it seems like it would be really great for moms who are trying to get everything done and still participate.

LINDSEY: Oh, that's great. I think something I failed to mention is that we have a number of moms that are audio-only or frequently do audiobooks or mix them in. We have a run club right now. I'm a reluctant new runner due to the FOMO that I have over not running with my friends, and I have recently joined the audiobook while running crowd. So it's great to know that there's a good one on audio.

[00:51:39] SHANNAN: Yes, I think this would be good. Anne, have you read this one on... Do you have any experience on audio?

ANNE: This was in the Summer Reading Guide a very long time ago when it first came out.

SHANNAN: I've forgotten that.

ANNE: But I read the print.

SHANNAN: Okay.

ANNE: But it's compact and punchy and packed with stuff you want to talk about with your friends, or your new friends, or the people you're connecting with for the first time through a book.

LINDSEY: I think it sounds great. I'm really excited. Because I don't know that I would have gone... I wouldn't have gone that far back in the summer reading guide for some reason. Because I've looked through past ones, but maybe in the process of looking I just get stuck with great ideas and I'm like, "Oh, I'm only in 2019."

[00:52:22] ANNE: And then you could have a movie night and watch Scandal together. Or at least the first episode.

SHANNAN: Or Bridgerton.

LINDSEY: Or Bridgerton. Yeah. We could do a... Okay, this is great. We could do... Y'all, I love Bridgerton. You don't even know how much I love some Bridgerton. So this would be an easy way to do a Bridgerton-themed night without actually making people read Bridgerton.

SHANNAN: It would. It would. Very.

ANNE: I hear y'all like a theme.

SHANNAN: This book was written before Bridgerton, so keep that in mind as well. All right. So that was Year of Yes.

ANNE: What else sounds good for Lindsey's book club?

SHANNAN: Okay. So, man, have you all read What Alice Forgot by Liane Moriarty?

LINDSEY: I have read What Alice Forgot, but our book club, at least this iteration of this book... I think... okay, I have read What Alice Forgot. I do not think our book club has.

SHANNAN: Okay.

LINDSEY: That's the one where she falls on the treadmill. Correct?

SHANNAN: Yes.

LINDSEY: Has amnesia.

[00:53:22] SHANNAN: Alice hits her head, develops amnesia, and can't remember the last 10 years of her life. I will have to say, this one might have warranted the most discussion in our book club. The premise of… she's in the gym, but when she wakes up, she's like, "Why am I in the gym? I hate the gym. And why am I..." You know, very, very thin. You know? And she finds out that she's getting divorced, you know, and she has three kids. She was pregnant with the first one at the time that she remembers, and she's lost the entire decade. And she thinks she loves her husband, but now she's getting a divorce. How did that happen is...

I mean, you could just talk about this for days with a book club. It is so highly discussable, and it is a page-turner. If you start it, you will probably have to finish it. I do not think this is one that everyone would need to have read to discuss, which is one of the reasons why I'm bringing it to you. And it really, really, really makes you think about 10 years before. For me, Buddy Man was a baby. I was in the thick of it. Like, how have things changed with my marriage and my relationships with my friends, etc., etc. Anne, I can see... Now y'all are getting behind the scenes. I can see Anne wants to say something.

[00:54:57] ANNE: Well, I'm just thinking about 10 years before when I finished my library book on the couch in one afternoon. But also the question is such a good one. Like, how does your life get away from you? And how incrementally do you wander away from the things that were once so important to you?

SHANNAN: Yeah. I don't know if you're familiar with the song by Adele, Go Easy On Me, Baby, but she talks about, "I didn't have the chance to choose what I chose to do." That is a line in how you just kind of shift away by degree, and then you wind up somewhere that you never really thought of.

LINDSEY: Somewhere totally different.

SHANNAN: Totally different than where you were aiming. This book brings that to the fore, and I think that a conversation with other mothers about life and what they thought and how they imagined things would be very good for a whole person, full self-book club conversation.

[00:55:56] LINDSEY: I love that. And I really love that that is, number one, a backlist title that will be easier for people to get, but that it's a book I'm more familiar with, because I've read it, and since often my... I love having a busy reading life, but often I do have a busy reading life. And so it being a book that I've read before and that some other moms have probably read before could be a really fun way.

Plus, I would love to be a re-reader, and most of the time I'm just not because I move on to the next and on to the next. And so intentionally rereading with the book club, with so many of those questions you mentioned in mind, I think would be really fun for me as a reader.

SHANNAN: Awesome.

LINDSEY: And we've established that's half the point of the book club. Selfishly.

SHANNAN: Okay.

ANNE: Sounds good.

[00:56:58] SHANNAN: I have two more in mind, but these are, as Anne said, to me, these are my not confident picks. And they're a little bit different. So...

LINDSEY: I'm excited.

SHANNAN: How do you feel... I was trying to decide if I'm going to pick from the two or if I'm just going to give you the two. Okay, I think I'll just give you the two. Do you guys read thrillers?

LINDSEY: We have before.

SHANNAN: Okay.

LINDSEY: I don't know that we read gory.

SHANNAN: Good. Have you read The Expats by Chris Pavone?

LINDSEY: No.

SHANNAN: All right. This was written in 2012. It is an Edgar Award winner, and it is a thriller. Kate is a newly minted but floundering stay-at-home mom. It's not a spoiler to say that she's a spy. She's a former spy, and she has given up that role to go with her husband to Luxembourg for his job. Some neighbors move around across the street. She's suspicious. Her husband starts acting weird, and before long she's just swept up in it all.

[00:58:17] I love this for your book club because it is not that heavy. You're not discussing heavy themes. It could be a more fun read. I'm thinking you probably will want most people to have read this to discuss it. But one of the things that was fascinating for me is that it's written by Chris Pavone, who is a man, and he himself became an expat and the stay-at-home parent when he moved for his wife's work.

When I was reading it, I was in the throes of, you know, that malaise of toddlers and just the relentlessness and the never-ending requests and things to do. And I really connected with the way that he wrote Kate. And then I was like, in my mind, you know, stereotypical, I'm like, "How is this man getting this so well onto the page?" Well, it turns out he's experienced it.

I thought that was an interesting dynamic, and I think that would be interesting to discuss in book club, like if a male or father had to take over this role, would he feel the same as the mothers do when they're taking over the role. Interesting, interesting conversation.

[00:59:35] When I was reviewing my notes, I discovered that I had abandoned this one before I became a mom because I couldn't relate. I was like, "Okay, ugh, duh." But then I picked it up after becoming a mom, and the rest is history. I love it so much. It was laugh-out-loud funny, and it was refreshingly absent of a lot of violence and gore. It really doesn't have that, and I really noticed that, oh, there's not that much there.

A theme or topic that could be discussed with the book club is maintaining who you are, who you were, while trying to be a mom. Of course, there's balancing the job, the husband, the kids, and it's still in your spy. It's a spy thriller, so it's fun.

There is a sequel. If you enjoyed it, you could read the sequel, which I also liked. And I also enjoyed Pavone's writing style. The way he tells a story is very interesting, and I love the way he strings sentences together. I loved it. I've read it twice after I abandoned it that first time, and I think that could just be a little fun pick for the book club.

[01:00:52] LINDSEY: That sounds really great. I actually didn't know about that one. His name is familiar to me from the podcast. I've had many a book on hold at the library, and then I think there's still... I think The Doorman is still in my Libby suspensions right now, with formats, the Kindle and the audio, because that's the best way to read, is all the formats at once. But you gotta have some library serendipity to make that happen.

SHANNAN: Okay. The final book is The Ten Thousand Doors of January by Alix E. Harrow.

ANNE: I love that you're bringing in Alix Harrow.

SHANNAN: Are you familiar with this one, Lindsey?

LINDSEY: The title is familiar. What else did Alix Harrow write?

ANNE: Oh, a bunch of Shannan's favorite books.

SHANNAN: Yes. The Once and Future Witches-

[01:01:41] LINDSEY: Is there a really pretty cover one?

SHANNAN: Oh, yes, all of her books have really pretty covers.

LINDSEY: Okay.

SHANNAN: The Everlasting is the most recent one.

LINDSEY: Yes, Sarah Bessey put it on one of her best-of book lists. I got it from the library and didn't read it.

SHANNAN: Okay. The Ten Thousand Doors of January is Alix's debut novel. She writes a lot of short stories, and in fact, her short story, The Ransom of Miss Coraline, is fantastic for moms. I mean, just love that story. And I don't think I'm naming it correctly. We'll put it correctly in the show notes. But that is just a fantastic story for a mom.

[01:02:35] However, like I said, The Ten Thousand Doors of January is her debut, and you said you were open to surprise, so this is my surprise pick. My caveat is I cannot say too much about mommydom and motherhood, because it might spoil some things. This is one your book club will probably have to read in order to have a really great conversation. Again, might not be accessible in that way. However, I still think it could work.

It is gentle fantasy, so there is doors, there are magical things happen. But Alix has an academic background, so she weaves history, I believe this one is set... is this one set in Kentucky? It might start out in Kentucky, and magic throughout. And the way she does this, it never ceases to amaze me. So you're having conversations about colonialism, and being an oddity, and being something that people want to collect. Because it's set in 1800s where a lot of wealthy white men were going around and collecting artifacts from different countries, and weaving magic into that story is just amazing.

[01:04:02] She's not heavy-handed with what she is saying, but you can pick up little threads, and they're worth having a conversation about. Gorgeously written. I just love the way she sends strings sentence words together to form sentences. Just amazing. It may take a few chapters to get into it, because I started it twice and was like, "Hmm." But once you get in, you will keep going, because you want to know what happens. It's worth it. I love everything she writes. I'm one book away from being a completist, and I have read this one twice.

LINDSEY: Okay.

SHANNAN: Anne, you have anything to add to that? I feel like... you know, when I love a book so much, I feel like I don't do it justice when I'm trying to talk about it.

ANNE: I'll just say that I did not have a hard time getting into it, I think because I listened to the audio, which I often find it easier.

SHANNAN: Oh, awesome.

[01:05:05] ANNE: I feel immersed right away. I have more sensory input to make me feel like I'm in that world.

LINDSEY: I think that one sounds really fun, and I like that it... We've done a few fantasy... Okay, maybe really only Fourth Wing because, you know, everybody was reading it. Everybody was reading it, and so it just became this fun thing. But not a lot of mo... Well, we were about half and half. Some moms were like, "Absolutely not. I'm never doing that." And that was fine because we just had fun. But this is not that kind of fantasy at all.

SHANNAN: No.

LINDSEY: This is more… sounds like more light magical realism. Maybe?

SHANNAN: I would say so, yeah. But in a little bit deeper-

ANNE: It's a portal.

SHANNAN: ...than magical realism. I did have a magical realism pick, but I'll show you off camera.

ANNE: Thank you, Shannan. All right, I have some ideas. Do you think I can do it fast?

SHANNAN: No. But sure. All right. Let's go, Anne.

[01:06:08] ANNE: Lindsey, not backlist, but Dolly All the Time by Annabel Monaghan.

LINDSEY: Oh, it's so good.

ANNE: Have you read it already?

LINDSEY: I read it. The book club did not.

ANNE: Here's what I like about that for book club. Well, okay, in Modern Mrs Darcy Book Club this summer, one astute reader pointed out that our accidental theme we hit upon that was invisible to me until she highlighted it was we had three books in which absent mothers featured prominently in the story by their absence, either because the adult daughter consciously wanted better for herself and her own children and her relationships, or because she was just knocked down by this void in her life and either could or couldn't see how it was harming her, but didn't know what to do about it.

The other two books were Sisters of a Halved Heart by Tara Roy and The Great Wherever by Shannon Sanders. But I like Dolly All the Time because it's romance and it's fun.

LINDSEY: Oh, it's so fun.

[01:07:04] ANNE: One of my favorite parts of the book is where... Dolly loves to bake, and she talks about how one of the best ways she knows to show love is to leave the butter on the counter overnight, and wake up in the morning, and cream it together with eggs and flour and sugar, and make something delicious. And I want to come to the book club where everybody whips up something delicious and brings it, and we all get to share.

LINDSEY: That would be really fun. It might actually in reality look more like everybody picking something up from Trader Joe's. But...

SHANNAN: Still delicious.

LINDSEY: But would also love the homemade version.

ANNE: I feel like a Trader Joe's act... Or, no, I feel like a Trader Joe's run can also be an act of great love-

LINDSEY: Oh, absolutely.

ANNE: ...or and friendship. So I would love that for you all. There's so much fun stuff to discuss. And she's the parent to a tween who she wants good things for. Oh, you know what I love about this book? Is that Dolly takes good care of herself and takes good care of her kid. They are not in competition-

LINDSEY: She does.

[01:07:59] ANNE: ...in the story. I love for you really anything by Elizabeth Acevedo. I think I've had her on the brain because I talked about her work not too long ago on the podcast, and I read her new one that I... Let me think. When is this airing? I will have talked about in Fall Book Preview by the time y'all are listening to this episode. But I love Clap When You Land for you all.

The thing about YA novels is you get old, and you read them like the grownup you are. And you might see yourself in the role of the parent or see how these children's actions and thoughts, and how the presence or absence of the adults in their lives are messing with them. And I think you can learn a lot about yourself as a parent when you think about what it is you need and have gotten or need and don't get.

But, oh, also she is incredible on audio. She's a poet. So good with the rhythm, reads her own work. Amazing. But this was inspired by and is dedicated to the memory of the passengers on the American Airlines flight that crashed in like November 2001. At the time, everybody thought, "Oh, is it terrorism?" And it wasn't terrorism, it was a terrible accident. But the plane crashed, and I believe killed all passengers at this moment in time.

[01:09:17] So that's the historical leaping off point. But Acevedo imagines two teenage girls unknown to each other because their father has been living a double life, going back and forth between the DR and the US. So this ends up being a story about secrets and sisterhood and family, and the good things a parent can give to a child even while failing the child in massive ways.

You get to see hidden resources in the face of great loss and surprising joy, and just a thorny mess of a situation. Like, what if, and then what do you do next? But there's so much to potentially talk about here.

Then finally, I'm wondering about some vintage Taylor Jenkins Reid. The book I have in mind is the last one she wrote before she took her career in entirely different direction. And I've said before, I'm still so curious about the backstory behind this pivot. But the book is One True Loves. It was the last one published before The Seven Husbands of Evelyn Hugo. But One True Loves, have you read it?

[01:10:24] LINDSEY: I have not. It's another one that is currently in my Libby suspense list.

ANNE: What? How? Okay, amazing, discussable premise. You do not have to have read the book to know... And also, part of what might feel a big spoiler is baked into the plot. You're going to talk about it immediately. But it's about this woman who meets her husband, I don't remember how young, but meets her husband, they're in love. I think this one came out in 2014. It's about a young woman who is in love with her husband. They're adventurous. They travel the world together. I think they might work for a travel magazine thing. And he is on a helicopter alone when it goes down over the Pacific. He's dead, no question. She mourns. She goes on with her life.

There's this amazing, beautiful favorite scene I still think of often where her husband just died. She reads a book in which the husband dies, and she's like, "I hate everything. Everything is terrible. My books have failed me. This is awful." Oh, her parents own a bookstore, which is super fun, and the plot...

LINDSEY: Oh, fun.

[01:11:30] ANNE: ...you know, fun little details. But then she comes downstairs one night, and her parents are reading a big stack of novels, and they can hand them to her with confidence all at once and say, "No husbands die in these books. We love you." Aw. So sweet. But it turns out after she has gotten her life together and finally healed a little bit and is moving on and maybe finding love again, her husband's not dead. He comes back. And then you got to talk about it with all your book club friends.

LINDSEY: Yes. Yes. And again, you know, someone who's read the book can give that pitch that you just gave, and even if people show up and they're like, "Oh, I didn't get to... you know, I'm just here for the fun and the vibes," they can say like, "Oh my gosh, if that happened to me, X, Y, Z." Or you can learn a little bit about people if it's like, "Oh, if that boyfriend you had in college that you thought you were going to marry.", you know? I think it can tell you a lot about people. But yeah, I think that sounds very fun.

ANNE: And if that sounds sensational, underlying the dilemma is, how do we become the people we are? Like, how do the good and bad things we've been through shape us and make... Like, would we be the same person if that wonderful thing didn't happen to us, but also if that tragedy didn't befall us?

[01:12:59] LINDSEY: Those are the best kind of questions.

ANNE: Yeah. All right, Lindsey, we talked about a lot of books today. Year of Yes by Shonda Rhimes, What Alice Forgot by Liane Moriarty, The Expats by Chris Pavone, The Ten Thousand Doors of January by Alix E. Harrow, Dolly All the Time by Annabel Monaghan, Clap When You Land by Elizabeth Acevedo, and number seven, One True Loves by Taylor Jenkins Reid. That's not even all the books we talked about. That's just our final list that you haven't read in book club. What are you thinking? How are you feeling? What might be on the horizon for book club?

LINDSEY: Probably all seven of them at this point. Y'all just made my life a lot easier for the next seven months. But the first thing I thought when Shannan shared Year of Yes was how perfect that would be for January.

SHANNAN: Yes, absolutely.

[01:13:52] LINDSEY: I mean, just very stereotypical, right? Like, you're starting a new year, that's a year of yes, but I love that sort of lineup of books with calendar markings. I mean, that one, I know... I've already mentally slotted it into... I know exactly what we're doing. In January, we're doing Year of Yes by Shonda Rhimes.

SHANNAN: So glad to hear it.

LINDSEY: And I hope other people will do it with me.

SHANNAN: So glad to hear it.

ANNE: That sounds amazing. We are happy to help. This has been a pleasure. Shannan, thank you for joining me.

SHANNAN: Thank you for having me.

ANNE: And Lindsey, thank you so much for bringing yourself and your book club request our way.

LINDSEY: It was so much fun. I wish the whole book club could have been here.

ANNE: Next time.

[01:14:43] Hey, readers. I hope you enjoyed our conversation with Lindsey today, and I would love to hear what you think she should read next. Find Lindsey on Instagram at the links in our show notes, where we've also collected the full list of titles talked about today. That list is at whatshouldireadnextpodcast.com.

Follow our show on Instagram @whatshouldireadnext. We love to see your posts and stories about the books you've discovered thanks to our show.

Sign up for email updates at whatshouldireadnextpodcast.com/newsletter, and stay in the loop about upcoming events, new episodes, and more.

And we would love to have you join us on Patreon, whether you'd love to hear weekly bonus episodes and more from me, Shannan, and our whole team, or you're excited to hear episodes like today's without the ads. Find out more and see all the options at patreon.com/whatshouldireadnext.

[01:15:32] Thanks to the people who make this show happen. What Should I Read Next? is created each week by executive producer Will Bogel, Media production specialist Holly Wielkoszewski, social media manager and editor Leigh Kramer, community coordinator Brigid Misselhorn, community manager and today's co-host, Shannan Malone, and our whole team at What Should I Read Next? and Modern Mrs. Darcy HQ. Plus the audio whizzes at Studio D Podcast Production.

Readers, that's it for this episode. Thanks so much for listening. And as Rainer Maria Rilke said, "Ah, how good it is to be among people who are reading." Happy reading, everyone.

• Heart the Lover by Lily King
• The Road by Cormac McCarthy
• To Kill a Mockingbird by Harper Lee
• Tell Me More by Kelly Corrigan
• Theo of Golden by Allen Levi
What Kind of Paradise by Janelle Brown
Untamed by Glennon Doyle
Yesteryear by Caro Claire Burke
▵ I Who Have Never Known Men by Jacqueline Harpman
• The Wall by Marlen Haushofer, translated by Shaun Whiteside
• Talking at Night by Claire Daverley
• Strangers by Belle Burden
• Year of Yes by Shonda Rhimes 
• What Alice Forgot by Liane Moriarty
• The Expats by Chris Pavone 
• The Once and Future Witches by Alix E Harrow
• The Everlasting by Alix E. Harrow
• The Ten Thousand Doors of January by Alix E. Harrow
• “The Ransom of Miss Coraline Connelly” (available in The Slantwise Histories by Alix E. Harrow)
• Dolly All the Time by Annabel Monaghan 
• Sisters of a Halved Heart by Nayantara Roy
• The Great Wherever by Shannon Sanders
• Clap When You Land by Elizabeth Acevedo 
• One True Loves by Taylor Jenkins Reid

: Guest favorite book
▵: A book they didn’t love

• WSIRN Ep. 523: Some people read the Great Books, so why not me?
• Little Professor Bookshop
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The post Supremely talk-about-able books to fuel your book club conversations appeared first on Modern Mrs Darcy.

Today, I’m talking all things fall books with our executive producer, Will Bogel. We’ll discuss our Fall Book Preview, which came out last Thursday, September 17th. In our conversation, Will and I will bring you behind the scenes as we talk about where the idea came from, when we started, how it’s changed, what we’re doing this year, and why.

Please tell us about a fall book you’re excited to read by leaving a comment below.

Our Fall Book Preview was released last Thursday, which means you can now get yours at modernmrsdarcy.com/FBP. Members of our Patreon community in the Bonuses and Events or All-Inclusive tiers get the Fall Book Preview as an included membership perk. This is a great time to become a member, not only for the Fall Book Preview, but also our upcoming bonus episodes and our team’s Best Books of the Year, coming up in just a few months. Find out more at modernmrsdarcy.com/FBP.

[00:00:00] WILL BOGEL: I find this very funny because you were saying, like, "Not everybody reads like me." Yeah, that's not me at all. I mean, I barely have a to-be-read list, and most of the time I don't even know what's on it. Like, I don't know where... I thought, "Oh, I should add that onto my TBR," and I don't know where...

ANNE BOGEL: Oh my gosh. I'm thinking of the year where you opened your reading journal and were like, "Wait a second, is my scale four stars or five stars? I don't even know."

Hey readers, I'm Anne Bogel, and this is What Should I Read Next?. Welcome to the show that's dedicated to answering the question that plagues every reader, what should I read next? We don't get bossy on this show. What we will do here is give you the information you need to choose your next read.

[00:00:49] We say that at the start of every episode, but that is the ethos behind everything we do. And especially behind big things like our Fall Book Preview, which we just recorded for you last week. So this week we're hoping we give you info to choose your next reads. Plural.

Today, I'm talking all things fall books with our executive producer, Will Bogel. We are going to discuss the Fall Book Preview today. Things like where the idea came from when we started, how it's changed, what we're doing this year, and why.

We just dropped it last Thursday, which means you can now get yours at modernmrsdarcy.com/FBP for Fall Book Preview for a la carte access. But to preemptively answer a frequently asked question, members of our Patreon community in the Books and Events or all-inclusive tiers get the Fall Book Preview as an included membership perk. This is a great time to become a member, obviously for the Fall Book Preview, but also our upcoming bonus episodes, which I happen to know are quite good. And in just a couple of months, our team's Best Books of the Year event is a real fan favorite and will be included in your membership.

[00:02:01] Today, we're talking all things fall books. Not getting ahead of ourselves, William, thank you for joining me to talk about Fall Book Preview.

WILL: I'm so glad to be here. This week I'm kind of all Fall Book Preview. So now that it's finally here, we're gearing up.

ANNE: You really have a unique perspective on this because you've been behind the scenes of Modern Mrs Darcy and What Should I Read Next? since before these things were publicly out there on the interwebs and in the real world. I mean, you've been part of the Fall Book Preview ride from the beginning right now. I think you should tell everybody why you're all Fall Book Preview all the time this week that we're recording.

WILL: This specific week. There's a lot of prep work, and we do plenty of things. I guess I probably start at the very beginning kind of planning stuff. And then you and the designer kind of get going on like, what's it going to look like, how much you can include, and what are the features?

ANNE: You should have a sounding board on your business card.

[00:02:59] WILL: I don't have a lot to do there. You say, "Hey, can I talk to you about these things?" And then you talk, and I just sit there, and you're like, "Yeah, thanks." I was like, "Well-

ANNE: How many times did I say, quote, "Thank you for verbally processing that with me."

WILL: Verbal processing. I was like, "I didn't do anything, but I'm glad I could help." And then as we get really close to time for the Fall Book Preview, there's a lot of technical stuff. What do we do with the PDFs? How do we share it with people? Let's load some emails into our email provider so that we can deliver it to people, posting it on our website. There's just a lot of... I don't know how many tasks I have in a normal week, but I opened our task management today, and this week is just nuts. But most of them only take a couple of minutes, because they're just a simple change. It's like, don't forget, you know?

But today, and the next maybe two days, I'm also prepping up a whole lot of merch to go out. So I am stuffing envelopes, and printing labels, and sticking things, and... yeah. I'm not exactly working at my computer. I'm just kinda, like, standing over the dining room table.

[00:03:59] ANNE: Sweatshirts, and stickers, and well-read hats, oh my. And that's not even counting the 1,000-plus Fall Book Preview lookbooks. Physical, hold-in-your-hands, delivered-by-snail-mail lookbooks that are getting shipped out this week.

WILL: That are getting shipped. That was passive voice. That I am shipping out. But yeah. I like how you said that in a passive voice. But yes, I am shipping out.

ANNE: Well, our boys and I are helping too.

WILL: Oh, around 1,000 lookbooks.

ANNE: But yeah, you are the fulfillment center.

WILL: Fulfillment center.

ANNE: And we're going to be eating on the couch this week. I love eating on the couch. I'm not sad about it.

WILL: And that's my week, so that's why I'm all Fall Book Preview all the time. But I think you are, too. What exactly, the sort of leading up to the actual day that we send out the email and we do unboxing, what are you doing?

[00:04:47] ANNE: Oh, well, that's funny. Here's what happens. Every year, I wrap the content on our PDF lookbook. Last year we had a physical lookbook that you could get. We had it professionally printed. You could get it in the mail. We are test-driving doing this for... I mean, it was good for its own sake, but we also wanted to see if we could print and mail the Summer Reading Guide and how that would go, and Fall Book Preview was a nice test case.

But every year I send all that in, and I think, "Whoo, I'm done," and then I realize, no, I gotta get ready to decide the very most important things I want to tell you at Unboxing, which by the time you're listening, happened on Thursday, September 17th. So really what I do this week is talk to myself, just thinking about what I want to say, and then I'll test run it through and realize, oh, well, that's five minutes of talking about books. And I really only have 90 seconds to... I mean, I will spend up to four minutes on a certain title, but I can't do that for every title, or we would be at Unboxing for like four hours. It's going to be right around 90 minutes. The video you'll get is right around 90 minutes.

[00:05:58] We say this is casual, unscripted book talk. I have learned it goes better if I practice what I want to say, and then what happens is I show up rehearsed with all my notes, and I throw them out the window and just speak from the heart. But it does go better if I prep in advance. So, yeah, I'm talking to myself about books this week, to make a long story short.

And it's tough because there's so much I want to say about every book. And I'm just really counting on having really great questions from our readers so I get to talk more about the books I want to talk about. But they will show up in the future on the podcast and in bonus episodes, and I'll talk about them in Modern Mrs Darcy Book Club, and I bet we'll invite an author or two to join us in that space. And I'll be talking about these books for years, beginning with Unboxing.

WILL: You're very time-limited for Unboxing, but I'm sure you'll get a chance to talk about these books again and again.

[00:06:50] ANNE: It's hard to believe that the first year we did Fall Book Preview in 2019 I just sat down with a stack of books next to me and just talked about them with... I don't remember doing any preparation. I mean, I don't remember everything crystal clear that happened in September 2019, but I don't believe I did a lot of prep.

The original vision for Fall Book Preview, and this is a story I've told before, so maybe you're hearing it for the first time, and maybe you've heard it every Fall Book Preview since, but thank you for your grace. What happened was I went to the Southern Independent Bookstore Alliance, SIBA, fall trade show, and it wasn't the first year I'd been. I think I started going every year beginning in like 2015. But that year I went for Don't Overthink It, which was coming out March 3rd, 2020. Please hear that date and just take a big sigh along with me.

[00:07:50] But I went to promote that book. But, you know, I've been going with my Modern Mrs. Darcy and What Should I Read Next? hat on for years. What I love about that event, aside from getting to talk to other readers and hearing the scoop from the booksellers and meeting the authors, is just getting a bead on how publishers are feeling about the season to come, because tons of publishers are there talking to booksellers about what they might want to carry in their stores in the next three to nine months.

And I love a good look behind the scenes. I like to see how the books that I love get not only written, but also marketed and positioned and sold at every step of the process. And I thought it would be so fascinating, because we have a community that shares this interest, not every single individual, but I think on whole. We like to know how things come to pass in the literary landscape.

[00:08:50] So I was coming back with a dispatch from what it was like. Like, what did I hear about? What were the big titles publishers were really buzzing about? But also, what were some that the reps were saying, "You want to hear about the dark horse that I love?" I was there for all of it, and I knew many of you would be, too. So I came back with my enormous stack of books that got handed to me at SIBA, and I stacked them up next to the chair and my mic where I'm sitting right now, and I just flashed them at you one by one and told you the stories I'd heard and what I knew. If I'd already read the book on the plane or in the week or so since I got back from... I almost said Fall Book Preview, because it felt like a Fall Book Preview. Like I could speak from that personal experience, but really I was the conduit by which you were hearing about what it would've been like to be at this big industry event.

[00:09:40] And it's really evolved since then. This year, 2026, will be our eighth, and I mean, the spirit is there, but it's not like that anymore. Because this is very much our... and I use the royal "we" a lot when the person choosing the books is me. It's our book preview because we feature team picks, and we consistently have done that for years now. And also because putting this thing together and putting it in your hands is very much a whole, and I mean whole team effort.

WILL: I was going to ask you how it's changed over the years. But your prep time, thinking about that, we always tell people, guests, I guess, you're assuring them that they're the experts in their own reading life. So they come on What Should I Read Next?, and they're like, "Well, I don't know how to talk about this. I'm not..." You say, "You know what? You're talking about your reading life. You can definitely talk about this."

And I think a difference would be, yeah, coming back from SIBA, you were just talking about what you heard, right? It was just like what you were excited about, what you heard, people you talked to. There was some prep. I mean, you went to a whole weekend event about these different books, so you were definitely doing some of that prep work. But now it's a little longer lead time. You're not just doing a weekend.

[00:10:51] ANNE: There's a very real sense in which I've been working on this for years. I mean, this year's Fall Book Preview for years.

WILL: Wait, nobody's going to believe that. Explain how it's been more than one year that you're working on this year's Fall Book Preview.

ANNE: My process is very much the same as it was for this year's Summer Reading Guide, which I know is the thing that many of you pay the most attention to. If you only pay attention to one thing we do every year, it's probably the Summer Reading Guide. So I have talked about this before. But my process hasn't changed for a couple of years now. It's become a bigger and bigger part, and now it's 100% what I do.

And that is, I review book catalogs every single week that publishers send me. I rely on the Edelweiss system that independent booksellers use, and I rely on just the catalogs from the publishers that I have relationships with. Obviously, lots of Big Five imprints, but also little tiny niche presses. I just see what's coming out every week and flag, "Oh, you know what.” That's the core of my process.

[00:12:03] Another part of my process is reading the deal points memos that come out every single weekday from Publishers Marketplace. I see what deals are being made. When those deals are announced, sometimes it'll say, "We just signed Sarah J. Maas for an eight-figure nine-book deal," and the last book will get published 12 years from now. Those stats are not-

WILL: Hypothetical. We're making stuff up here.

ANNE: They're only half invented, but they're not real. It's not true that her last book is coming out in like 2047. And sometimes the deal point will say, "And it's coming out two months from today." But I mean, some of these books in this year's Fall Book Preview are ones that I have been tracking since they were unnamed project acquired by Knopf to be published four years from now that'll generally be about the American dream and its collapse. That is hypothetical.

[00:13:01] So we have a spreadsheet that Brigid and I mostly keep called Books on the Way, and it'll say things like "unnamed project from Maggie O'Farrell". And we'll just track it through the process until it shows up with a name and a description and a publication date, and then I start rubbing my hands together, like hopefully not greedily, but ooh, give me that book. That's the pipeline.

The catalogs, those books are now available further and further in advance. Nine to fifteen months is typical. And then those books on the way can be up to four plus years if they get delayed. Yeah, it's a long time. It's been a long time in the making.

WILL: Yeah, it's a long time in the making. Speaking of things being delayed, or not speaking of things delayed, you were saying things change, right? Being delayed. So you've been working on some of these books that are going in this year's Fall Book Preview. You've been tracking them for years, potentially. But also, I think we found out today, when you were talking to yourself, or prepping to talk to yourself, that there's an inaccuracy? An update.

ANNE: It is.

[00:14:08] WILL: We'll say an update. It is now inaccurate, but it was accurate when we wrote it. But there's been a change, right?

ANNE: Yeah. We have out-of-date information in our Fall Book Preview.

WILL: Yeah.

ANNE: Here's what happened. I might-

WILL: Which we just finished like a week ago, right? It's out of date and we just finalized it.

ANNE: I might regret this later, but I'm not going to tell you the book. If you came to Unboxing, you would have heard it already, and if you look at the preview, it's the first book listed in the preview. And I went back to look at the things the publisher was really excited about for this title, and the first thing they said was, "We are aiming for a celebrity book club pick. We think this book is amazing. We think we can do it. We think it's perfect." And so I thought, "I wonder if they got that. Like, I wonder if they secured that."

[00:14:50] And I loaded just the book page on the publisher's retail site and saw, wait a second, the publication date has changed. And I realized, because of when this book is being published, they would not yet be able to announce that it had been named as a celebrity book club pick. But y'all, I've been watching what's going on in publishing for a long time, and a date change at this point in the process, the number of days it changed, I don't know which celebrity book club pick it is, but it's a celebrity book club pick. And the date got changed, and now our Fall Book Preview is out of date. I'll tell you about it at Unboxing. It's in the unboxing video you can watch now. Go check it out.

Also, I loved this book. I love this book. It deserves it. I don't know what the club is, but it deserves it. Those recommendations are not what they used to be. Those celebrity book club don't move titles like they did even a few years ago, and still I'm happy for this book. I don't want to spoil it, but I do think it's interesting to know what factors impact things like the publication date changing not long before publication. Like, how does that work and why? And I hope I can bring insight to that with all the books I talk about at Fall Book Preview.

[00:16:02] WILL: So celebrity book clubs has not always been a thing and... we were talking about how you switched from kind of this, "I just have a pile of books and I'm ready to talk to you about it," to the multi-year search for, "What books might I want to talk about?" And putting together a PDF, and now we're doing a print version. This'll be the third year, actually, for that. What's changed in the industry other than, as you said, the lead times are getting longer and longer for when people are announcing things and getting arcs out and all that stuff? What else is different about fall reading, fall publishing titles, the industry in general?

ANNE: Ooh. So much. I think the thing that probably is most visible to readers that has changed is the marketing and how the promotion finds you in different ways, and ways that a lot of readers experience as being very loud. All the book coverage. I mean, I wrote a blog post on the old Modern Mrs Darcy. I mean, old in that it was two logos ago. The colors are red and blue.

WILL: Two logos ago.

[00:17:12] ANNE: It looks very different. The Internet Wayback Machine doesn't function the way it did not that long ago, so I found a screenshot from a Gmail address I no longer use of the Mailchimp, which we no longer use, delivering the email to my inbox on September 23rd, 2014. And the blog post is Let's Make Autumn Reading a Thing. And bless my heart, the introduction is "Everybody writes a summer reading book roundup." Which is funny, when we started the Summer Reading Guide in 2011, 2012, that wasn't the case, which is hard to believe now. That wasn't that long ago, and it felt so different between 2012 and 2014. Like, where are the fall reading lists? Let's do one around here since nobody else is.

And in 2026, with fall reading news buzz everywhere, filling up everybody's Instagrams and book talks and Substacks and legacy media, it's different today. I mean, so much so that a conversation that we have often on our team is, look, one of our — I can quote from our vision and values — guiding lights is we are not about the bandwagon. Like, if everyone else in book world is doing something, then do we really need to be doing that thing?

[00:18:28] So we do have big questions every year. Like, "Everybody's doing a Summer Reading Guide. Do we need to do one?" Like, "Everybody's doing a Fall Book Preview. Do we need to do one?" And I need to be sure that we are bringing something valuable to readers that is uniquely us, because if everybody else is doing a thing, if we're doing things like everybody else, then there's no point. You can get it somewhere else. Somebody else is already going to the trouble. But I do think we have our own angle. I mean, our enduring angle. Like, we've been, I think, taking this approach for many years now. It's evolved very much since 2019.

WILL: Well, we have, yes, a way that we've kind of been doing things as a team for the last couple of years, and definitely from your direction of what we want to make. But also, when you talk about sort of what's everybody else doing and do we have a reason to do ours, and what's the angle and all that stuff, part of the angle is just us, right? I mean, we have not just a way of doing it, but a taste and a level of interest in particular books and particular genres and all that I think people have come to know, right, and they recognize those and are interested in, not to use myself as an example, but I do hear occasionally that people are like, "I want to know what Will's reading," you know?

[00:19:39] Actually, it's always fun when I'm in the customer service inbox, and I reply to somebody and they're like, "Oh, it's Will. Now I want to ask him."

ANNE: "He's real."

WILL: "I have a friend who needs this book," or, "I recommended one of the things you mentioned and here's..." So I always love hearing that feedback. But anyway, less about me. Except that it is about me. It's about us, right, that we have our own taste that we share, and it is not just... how do I say this? It's not just a list of books from this year. You were talking about how the titles, some of them, you've been working on for a very long time. But this year's Fall Book Preview, we've been working with readers to know who we are and what we're bringing to the Fall Book Preview for a long time. So as they've been with us for multiple years, they know what's going into that, and they have an understanding of when we say that a book is... come on, what's an adjective that you use in blurbs all the time? You say it's a-

ANNE: Evocative.

WILL: Evocative. Okay, there you go.

ANNE: You know what I say all the time? Emotionally resonant.

WILL: Emotionally resonant.

ANNE: Because I like that.

WILL: People have some understanding of what those words mean because they've heard you use them before.

[00:20:43] ANNE: Yeah, that's very true. I have realized... Readers, this is going to sound so obvious. But I've realized you don't talk about books and reading in a vacuum. I mean, unless you're selling widgets, right? And books aren't widgets. What we make is hand-curated by me with my human brain, and also comes from my own voice and interests as a reader, and I've really learned that I believe, at this moment in time, I can serve readers better if I really lean into the point of view. But I can only read like myself.

And while I definitely will read these catalogs and go, "Oh, I know exactly the reader that that book is perfect for, and that this book is perfect for, and this book is perfect for," and I may make team member recommendations, "Saw this, thought of you. If you check it out, let me know what you think." But I can only tell you what my reading experience is like. And despite the fact that this podcast is called What Should I Read Next?, the one “should” I believe in is you should make your reading life your own. I'm not going to tell you what you should read, but I can give you a good idea of what I've seen, what I've read, what I've experienced, what I noticed, what my reading experience is like, what other readers are finding, and let you make your own decision.

[00:22:06] Again, I do think this is really worth emphasizing. I'm not just rounding up books that I've seen out there, other people sharing on their Substacks or whatever. Like, I am really following my readerly heart and interests and past and enthusiasm and taste, and plucking two in 100 titles every week to investigate... That's probably not true. I probably read two, and I probably mark down nine, to investigate every week for years to think about what I really want to bring to you. And then this year I've read more for the Fall Book Preview than I ever have before.

WILL: I don't remember if it made it in, but you were asking me... we talk about how I'm there at the very beginning of this. You were asking me about features, and you were looking for a book. And this was not from this year, but you were looking to build out the feature and say like, "What's a book from before whatever?" And I made a recommendation. I was like, "Hey, I think this fits perfect for what you're thinking." And you said, "Oh, well, I didn't read that. You read that." I read it, but you said that you hadn't read it, and I was like, "Oh, well, I figured I read it because you passed it on to me." So that kind of eliminates where that fits in to other things because like you said, you want to speak to the books that you know well and are recommending from.

[00:23:22] ANNE: And I haven't read every book in the Fall Book Preview, so I get to be both a reader who has read and enjoyed. This year we have a section that's called Anne's Four and Five-Star Reads, Fall Reads, or something like that, and these are from among the dozens of books that I've... I think I've read like 35 so far, books publishing in this fall season, which is more than I usually read by this moment in time. And then I'll keep reading because I want to and because I'm finding out about more.

But initially, I envisioned that this feature would be much shorter because I didn't think I'd read as much, and I didn't think I'd love, like love as many books as I did. But this feature's really long, so in Unboxing I tell you about 18 of my four and five-star reads that I've already read for the season to come.

[00:24:11] There's also a section called Anne's Most Anticipated. And this is more in the spirit of the original, like, I just got back from the industry trade show, and I've seen what's out there, and publishers have told me, sometimes directly, to speak to my personal taste, what they think I might want to take a look at and why. And I'm sharing that, but I'm speaking from my personal interest and point of view, but I am not speaking from my readerly experience with those titles.

Now, some titles in that section I have read and enjoyed. If I didn't enjoy it, I struck it from the preview. Which some books that I really thought were going to be in my four and five-star reads because some readers had raved about them so much, I did not enjoy at all, and they get a very nominal mention in our More Books on the Way This Fall From Authors, including feature that we worked into the preview in the spirit of bookish abundance and hopefully not bookish overwhelm.

[00:25:14] WILL: I got a question about abundance there. You said you read 18 that ended up being four and five-star reads. Do you remember how many exactly are in the whole preview?

ANNE: 43.

WILL: 43. Okay.

ANNE: Well, okay, there's 43 in Anne's Four and Five-Star Reads and Anne's Most Anticipated, but then we have our team most anticipated, and we have series installments, and we have team backlist books that feel like fall, and we have the More Books on the Way, and all those features are not included in the 43.

WILL: Yeah, the 43. That's just ways of us sneaking in more and more books. But 43 is the titles that you saw coming out this fall that you wanted to talk about. And listeners, that's a very interesting number. 43 is an interesting number because especially for something like the Summer Reading Guide, we try and really keep it mid-30s. And part of that is dependent on the layout, honestly, like how much space do we have, how many books can go in, how do those numbers divide between categories, pages. And so it's pretty constrained or whatever. But you actually went longer than that this time with fall.

ANNE: I mean, I didn't mean to.

WILL: How did you keep that from being overwhelming?

[00:26:21] ANNE: That's a good question. I imagine it's the rare reader who will want to read all of them. I mean, in part because the Anne's Most Anticipated, that there are 25 books in that section. They're broken down by genre. So are you more drawn to the memoir nonfiction or the science fiction fantasy, the love stories? I mean, there are ways to make those lists much shorter as you make your readerly decisions. I was shocked to add up the numbers because it didn't feel like that many books to me.

WILL: And I remember you telling me that from the get-go, that was sort of like part of the vision of this year's Fall Book Preview is you want it to be very full, but also not overwhelming to people.

ANNE: Yes. Actually, as we were just talking about the number of titles, I was picturing the last time I walked into Carmichael's, our local indie. Like, there's 40 books on the new release fiction table and 40 more on the new release nonfiction. And it feels abundant, but not like, "Oh, no, stress, I need to read all these books immediately." It feels like I have choices. And that's what I really wanted to do, is give readers choices where they see things they could read but not feel like, "Oh no, I don't have time for all this."

[00:27:37] The vision from the get-go for this year's preview was... well, first of all, I've known for a while now that this literary season was going to be ridiculous, in a good way, but also in a, oh, goodness, how do we even talk about...? I've quoted friends who've said, "Every single one of my favorite authors have books coming out this fall. How am I going to read everything?" And I'm not going to pretend, readers, like you don't have more options than usual in this season. I know a lot of readers are really going to be thinking about, "I don't have any more reading time than I usually do, so how am I going to decide?"

So from the get-go, I wanted to help you prioritize and show you, like, yes, you have options, and also really think about how to narrow it down. And with our visual PDF lookbook that our What Should I Read Next? alum, Julie VanHeusen, designed with me. I say with me, she did the work, and I sent her terrible, terrible chicken scratch sketches and pages of text notes about the feel I wanted and edits to make. She's a pro. And it looks amazing.

[00:28:51] But what I told her was I wanted it to feel pleasantly packed, but not overwhelming, and kind of vintage, inky, like zine-y, hand-stamped. The phrase I kept coming back to with her was sophisticated whimsy. And I just want it to feel like a companion that you could keep with you through the whole reading season and also years to come.

One of the reasons for that is I know how I think as a reader about what I may enjoy reading next, and I do understand we have different reading lives, you and I, readers, and we read for different reasons and different purposes, and it's probably not your job, but it is some of your jobs. But first I like to get the lay of the land and see all the options, and then I'll make a couple picks, and I'll start reading. But what I find is I keep coming back to the possibilities over and over through the season.

[00:29:45] And every time, I'm a little bit wiser in my reading life. I have different recent experience reading in my ears. I have different stuff happening in my personal life that's going to inform what I'm interested in, what kind of tone and challenge level I want to read next. And I wanted our preview, whether you go PDF, digital, or whether you order our lookbook to come in your mail and you put it on your coffee table or tuck it in your journal, I wanted that to serve your repeat visits. I want it to hold up, and I wanted it to have enough information so you didn't have to go, "What was that dog book Anne talked about?" I wanted to have a short little description that would remind you of what each title was that you perhaps heard me talk about in Unboxing, just when you looked in the lookbook.

So I just really wanted a tool and companion that would feel trusted and usable. We printed on paper you can write on this year, and not glossy paper. And that was very deliberate. I want it to make your reading life better.

[00:30:41] WILL: I find this very funny because you were saying, like, "Not everybody reads like me or approaches reading like me." Yeah, that's not me at all. I mean, I barely have a to-be-read list, and most of the time I don't even know what's on it. Like, I don't know where... I thought, "Oh, I should add that onto my TBR," and I don't know where...

ANNE: Oh my gosh. I'm thinking of the year where you opened your reading journal and were like, "Wait a second. Is my scale four stars or five stars? I don't even know."

WILL: That was after I read the books. Right now I'm like, seriously the best thing going for me is a physical pile of like, "Oh, I wanted to read these books." And then I might not be in the mood for it, but like at least I'll remember it, you know? But as you're talking about that, I'm reminded of the Sears... was it called the Wish Book? Do you remember getting the catalog in the mail?

ANNE: All of a sudden I have The Music Man in my head.

WILL: Do you remember getting the catalog with all the toys in it?

ANNE: Maybe.

[00:31:37] WILL: I would turn down all the pages. I would dog-ear all the pages with... I mean, we're talking like a September Vogue issue, like thick book, you know?

ANNE: Well, I hope the fall lookbook is your grown-up book lover version.

WILL: Yeah.

ANNE: I mean, it's 12 pages. It's pleasantly packed 12 pages.

WILL: Pleasantly packed, but it's only 12 pages. That's true. That's fair. Well, the lookbook is one thing, and the printed version that you can get in the mail, which is a lot of what I'm doing for the next couple days, that's another piece of this. But Unboxing... we got to talk about Unboxing.

So Unboxing is our party? How exactly would you describe it? It's a party. It's a sort of study session, right? Kind of taking notes on what's coming and-

ANNE: There aren't a lot of contexts in which a party plus study session go together. It's the big reveal.

WILL: Oh, but Modern Mrs Darcy totally does all the time.

ANNE: It's the unveiling.

WILL: The unveiling, the party, and the note-taking session.

[00:32:39] ANNE: We're big nerds. We love new books. I mean, it is fun. But also, like, we're getting you prepped to make important decisions about what you want to feel like reading when you want to escape, or read something challenging, or get lost in whatever kind of literary fiction you really enjoy. If you enjoy literary fiction, this fall season's good.

But not to wander away from the point. Okay, so you were talking about Unboxing. What we do here is it gives me... Unboxing gives me an opportunity to share, in my own words, with my voice, where you can see my face or listen to my tone if you're a Patron who listens to the audio-only replay after, more details than I can fit into the lookbook. Or for the Summer Reading Guide, where we have more space, where we use more space, still I can't fit in as much as I would like to say.

[00:33:31] And I get to say more about what my reading experience was like, what surprised me, what I found. Sometimes in Fall Book Preview, I share fun little facts like, what was the initial print run on this title? I don't know that on every book, but y'all find little details like that really interesting if the publisher has shared them so I can share them with you. But really, what I'm telling you is, like, why I chose each book to include, if I've read it, what I thought about it, who I think may enjoy it.

And what I seek to do is speak about this in such a way that I can help you envision what your reading experience would be like with that book, and then you take over and think about, is this a reading experience that I want to prioritize having in this season?

And then my favorite part is Q&A. We answer tons of reader questions about these books, what's included, what's not, why, content questions. "Anne, I'm looking for this kind of title this fall. What are three that come to mind?" So I answer a bunch of those in Unboxing. And then we always do a Patreon bonus episode after that we've shared with our a la carte ticket holders and our Modern Mrs Darcy Book Club members, so you can listen to answering even more of those questions.

[00:34:41] And really the goal of all this is helping you get ready to have the fall reading season you want to. I don't want you to pick up a book and be like, "Ugh, if I'd known whatever bit of information, I never would have read this." I'm really trying to anticipate those questions so that you can feel as informed as you want to be about what's on the literary table this fall.

WILL: And I love hearing afterwards, sometimes in the chat, but sometimes, you know, several days later, whatever that people said they got the email, they looked at it, you know, whatever it was. They had an impression of things. And then you started talking Unboxing and they're like, "Oh, I was not interested in that book, for whatever reason, and now I'm excited about it kind of deal." And I love that you get to give your own energy to it. I do want to clarify. You said you get to say in your own words. The PDF and the printed guide preview are your words.

ANNE: They're all my own words.

[00:35:36] WILL: They're all your words. The ones on Unboxing are a little less scripted and haven't been edited, and you get to let your emotion show through, like how much you really enjoyed a thing. And also, if you get stuck on a book for four minutes, readers, that probably tells you something. There's a lot to say about that book. Not that that is the only arbiter of whether a book was really good or Anne really enjoyed it was how long she talked about it. But you can kinda tell which ones — ooh, another word we use a lot — resonated with her.

ANNE: Hmm. Yes, we do. In my own words, that's worth saying. We released an AI statement a couple of years ago, and I do think in this day and age it's worth repeating that our organization, our business, does not use generative AI. Period. The end. We make this ourselves, and we use our own words, and we choose our own books.

[00:36:26] And look, choosing the book you want to read next is, as it goes, a pretty low-stakes endeavor, but we're talking about your reading life, which, I mean, for you to allow me to speak to this part of your life is an honor and a privilege and a responsibility that I do not carry lightly. I feel like you deserve our human be... I feel like you deserve everyone's human best. And we'll link to that statement in our show notes, our AI statement.

But the first Modern Mrs Darcy value that we knew had to go on our vision and values sheet was trust. Like, we are honest and forthright and dependable both in what we make and how we deliver it to you. And really I'm a reader who works in the book space and talks about what I like.

[00:37:25] I mean, you might think my taste is crap, but all I can bring to you is my own taste as a starting point. And I want you to be able to trust that you're getting my real experience, my real opinion, I mean, shared in an honest, tactful, kind, forthright way. But we aren't swayed by external reviewers or sponsors. We don't take money for recommending books, and we write all this ourselves. Have I gotten a little carried away?

WILL: Yeah, that was a lot, but it's good.

ANNE: People always have follow-up questions that I'm kind of trying to answer.

WILL: Yeah, they do have a lot of questions.

ANNE: But we take what we do really seriously, and we think you deserve the honest and kind and interesting and useful truth the best way that I know to deliver it to you.

WILL: Honest and useful truth. I mean, the other thing about the AI statement is we enjoy this work. I'm not sure if it would be as fun if we were just like, "Computer, do this thing for me." I mean, whenever we talk to people they're like, "You get to read for a living?" We're like, "Not exactly."

ANNE: Not exactly.

WILL: But the fun part is talking about books all the time. And you wouldn't get to do that if you're using a computer.

[00:38:35] ANNE: I mean, I don't read for a living, but it is the reading that makes everything else possible, and I am grateful for all of it.

WILL: Yeah, you talk about books for a living.

ANNE: So thanks for letting me talk about books with you and to you. And I am doing my darnedest to make sure that trust is well-founded and that it does you some good. So listen to us.

WILL: Yeah. And I think it will. If you spend the time with Unboxing, that's approximately 90 minutes, right? The event?

ANNE: Yeah.

WILL: It should set up your fall reading season, your TBR personally, really well. It's going to be a good use of time.

ANNE: My friend said, "I just love how this is such a reliable investment in my readerly joy." I was like, "Oh my gosh, that's the nicest thing." I mean, because I want readerly joy. I want as much readerly joy as I can get. I'm going to tell you about all the books that brought me readerly joy, and tactfully omit the ones that didn't for the most part, unless I get very direct questions.

[00:39:32] WILL: Very direct questions. There you go, everybody. That's your permission to ask direct questions. All right. Well, thank you for talking Fall Book Preview with me, all the way back from Making Autumn Reading a Thing to this year's Fall Book Preview. Wish me luck. No paper cuts. You know, everything out on time.

ANNE: A man can dream. Good luck.

WILL: Thanks.

ANNE: Readers, I hope you enjoyed hearing about how we think about creating what we create here at Modern Mrs Darcy and What Should I Read Next?, and about Fall Book Preview specifically. I would love to hear what you think you'll read from the Fall Book Preview.

Tag us on Instagram any time this season. I'd love to hear what you think you'll read from the Fall Book Preview. Tag us any time on Instagram this season @whatshouldireadnext, or leave us a comment on this week's show notes. We post those every week at whatshouldireadnextpodcast.com.

[00:40:26] Make sure you're on our email list to get weekly updates on the show, the wider reading world, and special projects like the Fall Book Preview. Sign up at whatshouldireadnextpodcast.com/newsletter. Also, a reminder that the Fall Book Preview is an included perk for Patreon members, so this is a great time to join, grab your Fall Book Preview, watch Unboxing, listen to bonuses like last week's industry insights on small press personalities. That's where I shared how knowing what kinds of books publishers tend to publish helps you identify what books you might want to read.

Also, Will Bogel is mailing out merch all week. You can check out our shop. Our Fall Book Preview is there at modernmrsdarcy.com/shop.

Thanks to the people who make the show happen. What Should I Read Next? is created each week by executive producer Will Bogel, special thanks, William, for joining me today as my guest host, Media production specialist Holly Wielkoszewski, social media manager and editor Leigh Kramer, community coordinator Brigid Misselhorn, community manager Shannan Malone, and our whole team at What Should I Read Next? and Modern Mrs. Darcy HQ. Plus the audio whizzes at Studio D Podcast Production.

Readers, that's it for this episode. Thanks so much for listening. And as Rainer Maria Rilke said, "Ah, how good it is to be among people who are reading." Happy reading, everyone.

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The post Behind the scenes of Fall Book Preview 2026 appeared first on Modern Mrs Darcy.

Today’s guest wants to experience the satisfaction of engaging in what she calls meaningful reading more often, but she finds herself easily distracted by the new and shiny. Jane Baldwin has ideas for different reading projects but has gotten overwhelmed by the possible options, and would love my help navigating these roadblocks.

Jane lives with her husband and two dogs in St. Louis, where she’s an accounting manager by day and a devoted gardener and Dungeons & Dragons regular by night. Lately, Jane is attempting to fill some gaps she’s identified in her American literature reading to date, but she’s finding herself stalling out.

In hopes of boosting her enthusiasm for this project, Jane would love to identify clusters of books that can be in conversation with each other. Today we’re going to see if I can identify both contemporary and classic options that will provide interest and context to some of these older picks. Along the way, we’re noticing how much some of Jane’s chosen shiny and new books have in common with these older titles she’s been less excited to read. This is good nerdy fun and I love getting to talk all about it with Jane.

Please share a title or book flight idea for Jane by leaving a comment below.

Connect with Jane on Instagram, Substack, and StoryGraph.

Readers, the coming fall weather means sweatshirts will soon be back in my wardrobe rotation, and I have loved the chance to create a few especially cozy styles for the Modern Mrs Darcy shop over the years, like our MMD Sorority Sweatshirt, tailor-made for your fall activities on or off campus. Choose from a crimson or blue jean colored comfort color sweatshirt adorned with navy felt applique letters and white stitching. Order your fall sweatshirt and shop our refreshed for fall collection of bookish merch at modernmrsdarcy.com/shop.

[00:00:00] JANE BALDWIN: Oh my God, that is hilarious. I just threw that out, but honestly, those are kind of interesting titles to compare next to each other.

ANNE BOGEL: Those books have a lot to say to each other.

JANE: I'm sure we'll say more about that.

ANNE: Hey readers, I'm Anne Bogel, and this is What Should I Read Next?. Welcome to the show that's dedicated to answering the question that plagues every reader, what should I read next? We don't get bossy on this show. What we will do here is give you the information you need to choose your next read. Every week we'll talk all things books and reading, and do a little literary matchmaking with one guest.

[00:00:43] Readers, the coming fall weather means sweatshirts will soon be back in my wardrobe rotation, and I have loved the chance to create a few especially cozy styles for the Modern Mrs. Darcy shop over the years. Our latest is the Modern Mrs. Darcy MMD Sorority Sweatshirt, tailor-made for your fall activities on or off campus.

Choose from a crimson or blue jean colored comfort color sweatshirt adorned with navy felt applique letters and white stitching. We also still have a handful of colors and sizes in stock from our 2024 Book Camp sweatshirt design. Order your fall sweatshirt and shop our refreshed for fall collection of bookish merch at modernmrsdarcy.com/shop.

Readers, today's guest has tackled a significant reading project, but she's running into a few roadblocks and is hoping I can help. Jane Baldwin lives with her husband and two dogs in her not-long-ago adopted and much-loved city of St. Louis, where she's an accounting manager by day and a devoted gardener and Dungeons & Dragons regular by night.

[00:01:46] Jane came to us with the desire to feel more intentional in her reading life. She wants to experience the satisfaction of engaging in what she calls meaningful reading more often and sticking with something challenging, but she finds herself easily distracted by the new and shiny. She has ideas for different reading projects but has gotten overwhelmed by the possible options and hasn't done any of them yet.

Right now, she's attempting to fill some gaps she's identified in her American literature reading to date, but she's finding herself stalling out. Jane's put her finger on what to her is an appealing strategy for boosting her enthusiasm for this project. She is wanting to identify clusters of books that can be in conversation with each other, similar to the way we talk about book fights around here. And if you don't know that phrase, no worries at all. Jane and I are about to talk about it plenty. We will catch you up.

Today, Jane is here with her self-appointed 10 classic books she's been meaning to read, and we're going to see if I can identify both contemporary and classic options that will provide interest and context to some of these older picks.

[00:02:49] We're talking about everything from The House of Mirth to The Shampoo Effect, and along the way, we're noticing how much some of Jane's chosen shiny and new books have in common with these older titles she's been less excited to read. But hopefully, at the end of this episode, this'll change. This is good nerdy fun, and I can't wait to dive in with Jane. Let's get to it.

Jane, welcome to the show.

JANE: Thank you so much. I am so delighted to be here.

ANNE: Oh my gosh, the pleasure's mine. I am very excited about what we have in store for us conversationally today. Jane, would you start by just giving the readers a glimpse of who you are? Tell us a little about yourself.

JANE: Yes. I am 33 years old, and my husband and I live in St. Louis, Missouri. We've been here for about five years now, which is hard to believe. We are both Southern transplants. So he was born and raised in Nashville. I went to grad school there, started my career there, and that's where we met. But then we ended up moving to St. Louis for work opportunities.

[00:03:55] We have two rescue dogs. One is a 10-year-old grouchy, small-dog energy. Her name is Francie. And then an 11-month-old puppy named Scout, who is already three times her size. So two very different dog energies going on, but we love them.

For my day job, I am an accounting manager, so most of my workdays look like me just in spreadsheets and numbers, all sort of analytical things. So reading has definitely been a kind of an escape, total opposite of what I do for work, which I love.

ANNE: Do you want to tell us about The Novel Neighbor being your local indie?

JANE: Oh, yes. So fortunately, I live about a mile away, which is walking distance on a good day, to The Novel Neighbor, which is my local indie.

[00:04:52] I actually am on their Young Professionals board for their nonprofit. It's called the Noble Neighbor, and so what we do is we help fundraise for author events at the local public schools in the area. I mean, there's several a year where we'll have “buy books for students”, and then the author will come in and do an author visit. And so it's just been so much fun getting to be a part of that. I've gotten to meet some great people on the Young Professionals board.

Our big thing that we've been doing is we'll do a Kid Lit trivia. So we'll have kids about age 8 to 12 come in, and people at The Novel Neighbor actually help write some of the trivia questions, but it's all to raise money for these author visits. So it's a lot of fun. We really enjoy doing that.

[00:05:44] In addition to that, I've gotten into gardening. We bought our house in St. Louis about four years ago, and whenever we bought it, my goal was just to not kill whatever was in the ground. I didn't really grow up gardening, but I did not want to be the young homeowner with a bunch of dead, dying plants around her house. So I started to really get into it, and now four years later, I am trying to negotiate with my husband how much more of his lawn I can take up with new beds to plant more things in. And so that's a lot of fun.

Another thing that I've started doing is we host a weekly D&D game, or Dungeons & Dragons game with our friends at our house, and that is definitely not anything I ever thought I would get into. It was something that my husband kind of got interested in during the pandemic, and then he slowly but surely convinced me to try it with him. So, yeah, now once a week we'll have people over in our basement and play D&D. And we've made friends that way, and it's a lot of fun. It's kind of stretched me in ways that I never thought, but I'm really grateful for it.

[00:07:00] ANNE: Jane, are there ways that that connects with your reading life? Because you told me what you've been up to lately, and I'm wondering if there's a connection there.

JANE: Yes, slightly. One of our friends mentioned a book series that has gotten pretty popular called Dungeon Crawler Carl. My husband and I have actually been listening to those recently on audiobook together. We've found ourself on a couple of long road trips, and so we've been cranking through those and have really enjoyed them.

This past weekend, a couple of local bookstores put on a bookstore crawl. It was a Dungeon Crawler Carl-themed bookstore crawl that we went on, so we had to do different tasks at each of the different bookstores, including at The Novel Neighbor, which was so fun. It was honestly just an excuse to hang out with friends and buy stuff at our local indies. It was a lot of fun.

[00:07:59] ANNE: That sounds like a blast. I mean, five bookstores in one afternoon sounds like a blast.

JANE: Yes, it is. I'd been to most of them, but there was one that I hadn't been to yet. Honestly, St. Louis is such a reader's city. It's very bookish. We are very lucky with the number of authors who come through, and we'll do author visits, and then also we have so many bookstores. And so it's always fun to have an excuse to go to a bookstore that maybe isn't your closest one, but you can... It's still fun to go visit and see what they have in store.

ANNE: Jane, would you tell us more about your reading life?

JANE: Yes. I was just the stereotypical bookish kid. I came from a family who really encouraged readers. Even my extended family, my grandparents, my aunts and uncles, I mean, they were always big readers as well. And so I always was encouraged to read, and so it has always been such a big part of my life.

[00:09:01] My mom, this is kind of a nerdy memory that just came to me, signed my brother and I up for reading camps during the summers whenever we were kids, so I kind of have fond memories of that as well. But definitely always have been a reader.

Even in middle and high school, my friends fortunately were readers as well, and so swapping books with them. I felt a lot of pride because I introduced my friend group in high school to the Twilight series and The Hunger Games series, which is kind of fun.

But then once I went to college, I actually, even though I'm an accountant now, I majored in English for a semester because I loved reading so much, and that's what I thought I wanted to do. But I'm also a bit practical and analytical, and so I ended up switching my major to accounting, but I still minored in English. About once a semester, I would have an English lit class where I could, you know, have all of my business and accounting and that sort of thing, but then I'd have Shakespeare, or I had women's lit or African American literature.

[00:10:08] So even during college, there was definitely less of personal reading, but I was still really enjoyed my college English classes. But starting young adulthood, like early in my career, I felt like my job was very... It took a lot out of me, so I kind of fell out of reading for pleasure. It was something that I wanted to do, but I found it difficult to make the time and kind of have the brain space until I really started getting into audiobooks.

So around the pandemic, I discovered Libby, and from there, it really started to take off. That's about the time I found this podcast and also the Modern Mrs. Darcy Book Club. And so, yes, since probably 2020, 2021, I felt like my reading life has really taken off and which has been such a delight. It's been such a joy to have the desire to read, but then also be able to make the time for it, and being able to discuss it with other people has been really lovely.

[00:11:22] I would say lately, though, have been reading a lot, and I have ... I feel like I've been kind of in tune with a lot of the buzzy, the popular, the kind of noteworthy recent releases. But I found myself kind of seeing my reading life as being checking things off of the TBR or kind of gravitating towards the flashy and the new, and I'm kind of taking a moment to pause and think about, is this satisfying? Am I wanting a bit more intentionality, I guess, in my reading life? That's kind of what I'm, I guess, looking for right now.

ANNE: You know, I've read your submission, Jane, and I know about the project you're working on, but I didn't know about your history with your literary education. I'm wondering if those two things are converging this season in your life.

[00:12:17] JANE: I think that makes a lot of sense. I think that those classes, just that kind of like one class a semester of English lit, that was just totally different from everything else going on in my life. Having classroom discussions, having obviously a professor, a PhD, talk through these things with me, I really, really loved that.

It was just such a fulfilling thing. Even though it wasn't going towards my career necessarily, it added a lot of enrichment to my life, a lot of meaning. I'm a curious… I'm a thoughtful person, and so it's really nice to have things that add balance to your life. Definitely.

I've been reading along with Pride and Prejudice this month for Austen in August, doing the annotated version, and I have loved that so much. I've never done the annotated version. I've read Pride and Prejudice a couple of times at this point, but going through with the annotations has been so delightful. So I'm kind of looking forward to more of that kind of experience in my reading life.

[00:13:29] ANNE: Oh, okay. I am really wondering how many readers are nodding along going, "Yes," and how many are like, "What are you talking about?" Annotations being delightful. Jane, can I tell you my favorite so far? Because I'm doing this Pride and Prejudice read-along of the annotated edition too.

JANE: Okay, yes, absolutely.

ANNE: So very early in the book, Bingley moves to Netherfield, and there's lots of gossip in the community about who he is, and how much money he makes, and who's going to come live with him. And then there's a ball coming up, and there's lots of chatter about how many people he's going to bring. And he ends up showing up with... not the expected number of people. But the little annotation says, "Gossip is so important in this novel. Let me tell you what that's looked like so far, and let me hint at how it's going to play out." And I was just like, "Ooh, juicy. Tell me more." And "gossip" is not a word that I had previously associated with Pride and Prejudice, even though, holy smokes, it's everywhere. That's my favorite.

[00:14:29] JANE: It is everywhere. I've loved it. Or there was one of the footnotes or annotations about just the novel in general, not like that specific novel, but novels during the 19th century and how they were kind of looked down upon. And so just to look over and it's like, "Oh, there's two paragraphs just about the novel and how it was perceived in the Regency era." And it's like, "Oh, that is fascinating." I just love all of that background.

I'm a very curious person. I can go down a rabbit hole so easily. Like, I'm thrilled to go down any rabbit hole. And so yes, I am adoring these annotations.

ANNE: Okay. So you are curious by nature, you can go down any rabbit hole, and you want intentionality.

JANE: Exactly.

[00:15:24] ANNE: I think all these things, all these things are going to come to the fore today. Okay. Jane, so you've been listening a while, and your reading life has been... What were your words? It really took off in 2020, 2021, and here we are. We're talking in August 2026. What brings you to the show right now?

JANE: I have put a little curriculum together for myself. I guess the background of this would be about a year ago, my husband and I went to Chicago for a long weekend, and I took him to the American Writers Museum.

ANNE: Ugh, jealous. I still haven't been.

JANE: Oh, it's small, but it is so wonderful. It was actually he was having a boys' weekend with some of his college buddies and fantasy football stuff, and so I was like, "Okay, so now we're going to go do this."

ANNE: Counterpart.

[00:16:18] JANE: Yes, exactly. So we went, and I loved it. And it made me realize that there are so many wonderful pieces of American literature that I have just not read. I almost got a little emotional there, which I'm also kind of an emotional person, but just feeling so proud of America's literary legacy. And so I was like, "I definitely need to be intentional about reading more of these writers that I definitely have blind spots in."

And then whenever Harper, I think it's HarperCollins, they had those 250th anniversary editions of some American classics come out. That's what really sparked it. This summer I decided, "You know what? I'm just going to put together a little curriculum for myself, 10 works that are kind of blind spots for me, and I want to work on that." I'm not really giving myself a timeline or a deadline, but that was my intention.

[00:17:25] I started with The House of Mirth by Edith Wharton, and I have found myself stalling out a little bit. I think I'm trying to read these kind of the same way that I would be reading, like, Yesteryear or Shampoo Effect or kind of these buzzy books that I've been reading lately that I've loved. Don't get me wrong, they are a lot of fun. There's a lot to unpack there in those works.

But these are very different types of books that I've chosen, and so I want to kind of do something that's a bit more intentional, where I'm sitting down, and I'm reading, and I'm not just kind of letting them happen to me, but kind of put some more effort into it. I think that's kind of important to me. It's a muscle that I want to work, I guess, instead of just like, "Oh yeah, this is an enjoyable book that I'm listening to or reading," if that makes sense.

[00:18:31] ANNE: Yeah, I can see how reading The House of Mirth could benefit from a little more additional context than The Shampoo Effect.

JANE: Yes, absolutely.

ANNE: Although I kind of like how those books could play really nicely together.

JANE: Oh my God, that is hilarious. I just threw that out, but honestly, those are kind of interesting titles to compare next to each other.

ANNE: Those books have a lot to say to each other. I'm sure we'll say more about that. But readers, if you haven't listened to episode 536 with Lizzie McFarlane, who talks about classic novels and how she had discovered that she couldn't just fall into bed and knock off a few chapters before bed like she would the 2026 new release she grabbed on the front table of the bookstore, we talk about strategies to approach.

So Jane, thank you for bringing a really wonderful companion to that conversation. And yet, this is important to you. This is something you want to do, and we're going to figure out a way for you to, I don't know, think about it differently. And you had some ideas for that.

[00:19:31] JANE: Yes. So you've introduced the concept of flight picks, and so I thought it might be interesting to add some flight picks to my personal curriculum. That might give me a bit more to chew on. It might add a little excitement, just a bit more intentionality to it. And so that's where I thought I could use your help.

ANNE: Okay. And readers, we made that up. That is the royal "we". Readers, when Jane says book flight, w- that is referencing a Modern Mrs. Darcy blog post from a million years ago, or maybe 2011 or 2012, where I was channeling the idea of a wine flight, or I'm in Kentucky, we have bourbon flights, where you have several options in front of you that have a lot in common but also have been purposely curated for contrast and comparison so that you can better appreciate what is distinctive about each individual component of the flight. So that's what we're talking about.

[00:20:40] Jane, I'm really excited to talk today about... you thought starting with some Edith Wharton flight picks would be a great idea. Can we zoom out first and talk about the books that you've brought to the show today?

JANE: Yes, absolutely.

ANNE: Okay. Well, you know how this works. You're going to share three books you love, one you don't, and what you've been reading lately. How did you choose these?

JANE: I didn't want to overthink it too much.

ANNE: Love it.

JANE: These are just three books that I've read within the past year or so that I really loved, but they also are pretty distinct from each other. So it would take a good picture of what types of books that I enjoy usually.

The first one is The Bright Years by Sarah Damoff. This was, I believe, a 2025 Summer Reading Guide pick.

ANNE: Yes, it was.

[00:21:39] JANE: This was my favorite book that I read in 2025.

ANNE: Wow.

JANE: I remember as soon as you started describing it, I was like, "Oh, that's one that I'm going to end up buying," because, and this is a little sneaky, my favorite book of all time is A Tree Grows in Brooklyn, and so I'm sneaking in maybe a fourth pick. A Tree Grows in Brooklyn by Betty Smith. This book, while definitely not a retelling, it definitely pays homage to that book.

So The Bright Years follows Ryan and Lillian Bright and their marriage, as well as their daughter, Georgette Bright. It takes place in Texas, which I lived in Texas for several years. I have family who still lives there. The book starts with them meeting in Texas while Lillian is reading a copy of A Tree Grows in Brooklyn. I was like, "Oh, this book is going to be for me, for sure."

[00:22:42] It talks about their marriage and a lot of the struggles, the secrets that they have, and then it also is part coming-of-age story with their daughter, Georgette, and it kind of mirrors A Tree Grows in Brooklyn that way, which is definitely a coming-of-age story of Francie Nolan at the turn of the century in Brooklyn.

I mean, I just loved it. It is so full of heart, but it also talks about really difficult things. I just loved it. I don't have my copy with me because I mailed it to my aunt and told her, "You have to read this." So, yes, it is just one of my very favorite books.

ANNE: Now, I'm not saying we had the same experience reading this book, but this is telling me that you're okay to go pretty emotional places.

JANE: Oh, absolutely. Definitely. I don't tend towards... I don't want it to be overly saccharine, overly sweet, or melodramatic just for the sake of being emotional. But if it's grounded and if it feels true, then I can do emotional. Absolutely.

[00:23:58] ANNE: Okay. I will file that away. Jane, what's the second book you love?

JANE: The second book that I chose is Into the Blue by Emma Brodie. That came out, I believe, this spring. It's the book that made me realize that me and Jenna Bush Hager may have very similar reading tastes, because I believe this is one of her imprint books. It's a romance. It follows AJ Graves the summer before her senior year of high school in the year 2000, and she is working at a movie store when the Noah Drew of the Drew family, if you can hear those air quotes, walks in, and he's also working there.

And he comes from a famous acting family. And so that summer they become acting partners, and there is a lot of yearning, a lot of emotional turmoil, I guess. But at the end of that summer, he just disappears without a word. Then it jumps forward, and they reconnect because of reasons.

[00:25:15] But I loved this one. It's also emotional. There's a lot of yearning, like I said. I also really enjoyed kind of the behind-the-scenes nature of it. There's Hollywood illusions. AJ, the protagonist, she works at SNL, Saturday Night Live, for part of this book. I'm a curious person, so I love any sort of, kind of behind-the-scenes look at anything that I may not be familiar with.

So, yes, that one was a lot of fun, but it also did... definitely was pretty emotional. I remember I read this on a plane, which I'm not a very good plane reader. I get easily distracted. It's hard for me to kind of focus in, but I remember reading this book on both legs of the flight the entire time. Literally, I sat in my seat, pulled the book out, did not put it down until the seatbelt sign went off whenever we landed. Loved it, totally engrossed.

ANNE: Well, that sounds amazing

[00:26:19] JANE: So my third book is Blood Over Brighthaven by M. L. Wang, and this is a fantasy dark academia book. It's a standalone, which I really appreciate in that space. I feel like most of these kind of fantasy books tend to be at least a trilogy. So I always appreciate it whenever an author can tell their story within the pages of one novel.

It follows Sciona, who is an extremely bright, incredibly driven high mage. She is the first one, first woman, that is, to become a high mage at the University of Magics and Industry. That is basically her life, has been working towards this. But what I love about it is how it explores systemic issues and society at large.

[00:27:19] So their society is powered by advanced magical technology. So what I loved about this was it explores so many different types of dynamics. She is given an assistant who was a janitor but he has definitely a backstory. He's more than what he seems. He's from a marginalized group who has come to their city.

What I loved about it was how much it explored gender dynamics, systems of power, systems of oppression. It felt incredibly relevant even though this was taking place in a magical society powered by magic. So it really stuck with me. I made my husband read it. I made a couple other friends read it.

This would have been my favorite book last year if it weren't for The Bright Years. And I don't do a lot of fantasy normally. I think part of the reason that I enjoyed it so much was that it was a bit of a unique reading experience for me. So I'm definitely interested and I've been trying to... I don't know if she has anything else coming out, but I definitely loved this one.

[00:28:38] ANNE: Well, I'm so glad you took a chance on it and that it worked for you.

JANE: Yes, definitely. I think that's part of what comes with the delight of the reading experience, is whenever you kind of take a chance on something, and then it ends up paying off even more because of that.

ANNE: Definitely. Now, Jane, tell us about a book that was not a good fit for you, and we'd love to hear why.

JANE: I'm pretty good at DNF-ing books. That is not a problem that I have. And so I wanted to come with one that I at least finished. The book I've decided was The Shippers by Katherine Center, which was a bit of a surprise to me because I've read several of her other books, like The Bodyguard and The Love Haters, and I really enjoyed those.

[00:29:29] But this one was just kind of a miss for me, I think because the premise seemed a little flimsy maybe, or the character's motivations and the decisions she made and what justified them, it just seemed a little bit of a stretch to me. It didn't feel super grounded. Not that I need a very grounded romance, but it fell a little bit flat for me. It wasn't quite as relatable maybe or I feel like the rationale for the decisions that the main character made seemed a bit unbelievable or maybe kind of a stretch. So it kind of took me out of it a little bit, if that makes sense.

ANNE: So you don't need what happens in your stories to be real exactly, thinking about Blood Over Bright Haven.

JANE: Exactly.

ANNE: But you want the characters' actions to feel true.

JANE: Yes. Yes.

ANNE: Please hear that as a question.

JANE: No, no, no, that makes a lot of sense. I think that's put very well.

[00:30:32] ANNE: Okay. So you and the protagonist, supporting characters as well, were not in sync.

JANE: Exactly, yes. And it's not that I even... I don't even have to have a likable character. Like, I loved Jester Year, and I would say that that was not a likable main character. But I have to at least understand why they're making the decisions that they're making, or it needs to feel logical, or somewhat logical. I don't know. It seemed like a little bit of a stretch, kind of the premise and the reason she made her decisions. It all felt a little bit flimsy. So it just didn't land quite with me like some of her other works have.

ANNE: Okay. I wonder if you didn't feel the sense of trust and comfort you needed to let your guard down with the story?

JANE: That's interesting.

ANNE: I guess there's a couple ways to interpret that. What I mean is that perhaps... I'm thinking of times when my readerly brain is spending a lot of time closer to the surface going, "Do I buy this?" Which prevents me from really entering the story. If I'm still trying to figure out if I'm down with the premise, then I feel, I think, removed from the book.

[00:31:50] JANE: Yeah. I think that makes sense. There was a lot of maybe internal discussion with myself in my brain. I'm like, "Are we buying this?" Like, "What do we think about this?" Instead of really just falling into a story.

ANNE: Yeah. And I mean that differently from reading critically. I think you can read critically and still be very much engaged. But that's different from the I'm still in the phase of deciding: do I trust that what the author is telling me is true to the story itself? Not true, like, could it really happen in reality, but is everything aligned the way it needs to be? Does this feel right?

JANE: Yes. I think that makes a lot of sense. There is the good internal dialogue you have with yourself about, oh, making connections, and that makes me think of this, so I want to go look up this afterwards, or, oh, this is making me relate to this, versus what I said earlier, like, yeah, I don't know that I buy this, that I am buying into this story that they're telling. I think that makes a lot of sense.

[00:32:54] ANNE: I mean, I'm thinking about this, and I'm saying all of this as like I love Katherine Center.

JANE: Oh, yeah.

ANNE: But just thinking about the reading experience, like The Bright Years by Sarah Damoff, so much of that book is about topics I do not know enough about to know for sure, like would it really look like this, Sarah Damoff? But I felt like what she was showing me about the characters and their motivations and their actions, even when extreme, felt — repeating myself — felt true and real, and it didn't take me out of the story. I didn't need to step back and go like, "Wait, whoa, whoa, whoa, wait a second. Are we sure? Like, really? Do you think I'm going to buy that? Am I supposed to buy that? Is this plot..." It all felt like seamless story world.

JANE: Right. I would definitely agree with that. Absolutely.

ANNE: So, did you have any takeaways about this reading experience for what it means for future you?

[00:33:48] JANE: Well, I feel like this was a case... I mean, this is an author that I have read before and have enjoyed. I wonder maybe if my taste in romance novels has changed a little bit. During the pandemic, I started to read them a lot more. I think Emily Henry honestly is what kind of brought me to romance novels like that. And so maybe my tastes are changing a little bit, or this was just a case of it was new, and I think it was a Book of the Month choice that I got. And so maybe being a little bit more intentional about some of the things that I'm choosing as opposed to like, "Oh, here's just the flashy newest book." Because if I had read the premise, I probably would've been like, "Eh, do I buy that?"

ANNE: I've heard a lot of readers say also it's too close to COVID for them to read a cruise ship book. Period. The end.

JANE: That's true. Part of it was like, do I enjoy being on a cruise ship right now? I don't know that this is a location that I really want to be on. Truthfully.

[00:34:53] ANNE: Valid. Okay, we will keep that in mind as we think about-

JANE: Yeah, no cruise ships.

ANNE: ...what you'll enjoy for your project. All right. Jane, what have you been reading lately?

JANE: I know that I mentioned The Shampoo Effect earlier, by Jenny Jackson. I really loved this one. I read Pineapple Street, which was her debut work, a couple of summers ago now at this point. I really love messy relationships with interesting characters. They can totally be flawed, but I just love reading about those dynamics, and I think she writes about class and belonging in a really interesting way.

Another one that I've read recently was Sisters of a Halved Heart by Nayantara Roy. I adored this. Talk about messy relationships and emotional work. I was absolutely gripped by it from the start. I loved Mira, even though she was definitely flawed and had her own issues, but I was with her the entire way. I felt exactly how she felt the entire novel.

[00:36:07] I even audibly gasped at the ending. Like, my husband turned, he's like, "What? What's wrong?" And I was like, "Oh, no, just another book got me." It was such an enjoyable experience.

And then also, obviously, I've been slowly working through The House of Mirth. I am maybe a third of the way through it, but have just kind of put it down and have gotten distracted by other things. But I definitely am not wanting to give up on it. I want to find some flight picks maybe that'll kind of draw me back in, that'll give some new life to this project that I've started for myself. And that make me excited to keep going.

ANNE: Jane, as we move forward, I would love to hear you address something you said in your submission that really caught me, in part because I relate and in part because I've heard the same sentiment or similar from so many of our listeners.

[00:37:12] You said that you too often experience being overwhelmed by choices, so you didn't end up doing any of them. And I wonder if you could speak to that more. The struggle, anything you found to work, how that factors into how we think about your literary project together.

JANE: Absolutely. So I feel like the last few years I've decided not to necessarily overwhelm myself by choice with having a big project or anything like that. I feel like reading more and getting through more books and finding so much more enjoyment in the reading life has been such a lovely recent thing over the past few years that I didn't really want to add overwhelm or add a burden to that.

It's interesting also around the time that I really started picking up my reading, I was diagnosed, very surprisingly to me, with ADHD, which is something that, after I realized that, and I talked to a lot of other or some other friends, women around my age, and how they also were diagnosed with ADHD late in life, I feel like so much of the narrative around ADHD is kind of like the stereotypical 10-year-old boy who can't stay in his seat in class, can't stay focused.

[00:38:40] But in women, and I can't speak obviously for all women, I can speak from my personal experience with it, it looks a lot different. We're not necessarily fidgeting and can't stay still in our seat, although there might be some of that. But it's more in our brains. It's more spending a lot of time in our heads and easily distracted, can be easily overwhelmed by things.

So for the past few years, it's really been, for me, about simplifying the reading life, about kind of going where my curiosity takes me, what sounds interesting at the time. I can be a bit of a mood reader, and so just kind of leaning into that and letting enjoyment kind of take the reins.

But it's been more recently where I've decided that I kind of want to find enjoyment in different ways. So instead of just going wherever my curiosity and wherever the wind takes me, or my whims take me, be a bit more intentional, kind of grow that muscle. That's what brought me to deciding to do this reading project of picking books that I have kind of blind spots of in American literature, and let's be a bit more intentional. Let's work on focus and about reading things that may take a little bit more effort, a bit more intentionality, that maybe yesteryear, for example, did not take much effort or intentionality to work through.

[00:40:15] But I do find that being someone with ADHD, it definitely does affect my reading life because there is a lot of overwhelm that can come from it. There are so many different choices. I know that you've mentioned book projects before and like, "Oh, they all sound great. I definitely want to do this." But like I said, I've been working on simplifying my reading life and not putting too much overwhelm, just to foster it, to let it grow.

But what comes with it is a lot of curiosity. Whenever you find something that your brain can kind of sink into and go down those rabbit holes, there's so much meaning that can be found there. It's really such a rewarding experience.

ANNE: I'm so glad to hear that. Jane, I appreciate you talking about the joys and the challenges and what you're doing now that you have this information to try to find more intentionality, and I think ultimately satisfaction from your reading life.

JANE: Yes. Sounds wonderful.

[00:41:23] ANNE: Jane, you said you're looking for flight picks to go with The House of Mirth, especially ones that may be contemporary. Is that right?

JANE: Yes, contemporary would be fine. Honestly, I'm open to whatever you might suggest, but yes, what I'm looking for would be books that be in conversation with The House of Mirth that would kinda give a little more energy, a little more insight, context, anything like that.

ANNE: You've been thinking about this for a little while. How are you thinking about it? What are you coming up with? Where are you getting stuck?

JANE: I have found that I can't read these books the same way I would just like, you know, going to bed before... you know, I'm laying in bed and I'm reading a book before I go to bed. These are going to require maybe a little bit of time blocking, honestly, have a little bit of a schedule for myself. But I'm also finding that I'm kind of stalling out a bit whenever it comes to reading this, because I'm not finding a lot to, I guess, latch onto, if that makes sense.

[00:42:35] I think, like with Jane Austen, even though this book was written probably a century later, it's over a century old. And having all of the annotations, all of the context from Jane Austen, from Pride and Prejudice in the annotated version, has been so enlightening. I think what I'm looking for is maybe something that's more contemporary that would kind of shed a light on more of the context going on at the time that The House of Mirth takes place. Just something like that, if that makes sense.

ANNE: Yeah.

JANE: Or even books that might be an interesting conversation. Like we were talking about Shampoo Effect, even though I did not even think about that at all initially, what that says about belonging, about class, even the setting. I mean, it's Northeast, so not exactly the same place, but same general kind of vibe. Those kinds of picks, I think that would be really interesting for me to kind of see what they might have to say together.

[00:43:54] ANNE: Okay. Jane, when it comes to stamina for reading some of these classics on your list, your classics reading list project, I've heard that you know there's a couple different ways in. Like the annotated edition of Jane Austen is really working for you, and you could do some similar things in that regard.

I feel like SparkNotes gets a bad name in adult reading communities, but reading through the summary on SparkNotes could be really helpful to know the overview of what you're settling in for before you really get into the sentence-level reading of it.

And it sounds like another way, besides those more studious from your English major days approaches is to, like you said, read works that could be in interesting conversation with Edith Wharton about the same themes that you'll find in those pages.

[00:44:56] And what I hear you saying is that reading more contemporary, I think more accessible novels, ones that are easier to read when you're already sleepy, and still follow what's happening and still care about the characters, that that would add a nuance and richness to your appreciation for the topic that would then help Edith Wharton come to light in the same way. Am I tracking?

JANE: No, that makes a lot of sense. I think that's very well put, that what I'm wanting to do is give these books the due diligence that they deserve. But I've, of late, not kind of put myself through the rigor of reading these kinds of books lately. And so wanting to sharpen those — I'm mixing all of my metaphors — build those muscles.

ANNE: We can follow.

JANE: I want to build those muscles, and give these works kind of what they're owed. And so hopefully, as I kind of work through this list, that I'll be gaining the muscle. But, you know, to start with Edith Wharton, I think it would be really helpful to have more of an accessible entry.

[00:46:15] ANNE: Wait a second. You know what we're leaving out of here is how you love to follow your curiosity. So we want to feed your curiosity with maybe surprisingly related, but related works.

JANE: I do love. I love whenever I can make connections with things that are surprising. I think that definitely adds to the delight.

ANNE: Okay. I'm glad to hear it. You know what? I've been thinking about themes in The House of Mirth. Like well, marriage, insecurity, and how those two things go together. Freedom and how marriage takes it away. Agency, beauty, wealth, manners, propriety, and social climbing, one of my favorites to read about in fiction.

But I wonder if something biographical would be a different way in. A couple of years ago, this novel by Maria Fredericks came out called The Wharton Plot, and this is biographical fiction about Edith Wharton. And Frederick's premise here is, what if novelist Edith Wharton, because of the way her brain works, was persuaded to play amateur sleuth to solve the historically real murder of her colleague, the novelist David Graham Phillips, which took place in 1911 in New York City.

[00:47:35] And The House of Mirth came out in 1905. So these are closely enough related in time that you could trust that if Fredericks did her job well as a historical novelist, then she's portraying the New York City that ought to be quite similar to the one portrayed in The House of Mirth. Does this sound promising?

JANE: That sounds very promising. I remember hearing about this title and thinking, "Oh, that sounds like something I should read," but I have not gotten around to it.

ANNE: That's wonderful, because now we can talk about it today. The thing that I enjoyed about this is it was just... I mean, it was entertaining, well-constructed mystery, but also just packed with these little interesting- factual tidbits about Wharton's life, and her writing, and her relationships. And I wonder if getting to know the woman behind the book could be illuminating and maybe add some richness to the way you're approaching the text.

[00:48:34] The thing about the Phillips murder was this novelist was shot outside the Fan... I think it was the Princeton Club at Gramercy Park, and his killer was a Harvard-educated musician, who was a violinist in a city symphony, who came from a prominent family. And his killer murdered him because he believed that the novel that the victim, Phillips, had written had cast literary aspersions on the killer's family.

So Wharton's a novelist, and for her, the question is, what kind of book could incite a murder, and why? And she's got to figure out what's in the text, what is it saying, what does the killer think it's saying, how did that lead to the murder? Like, this is how she's going to track down the perpetrator of this crime.

And I asked you this once, but knowing a little more, might that bring a new facet to your reading of The House of Mirth? Or does it sound interesting for its own sake, I suppose?

[00:49:34] JANE: Oh, yes. That sounds definitely interesting. Now I want to know more about the author who was murdered as well. That's really interesting

ANNE: That's going to be in the pages of the book, and you can rabbit trail to your heart's content, looking up what is known about what happened back then.

JANE: No, that definitely sounds very interesting.

ANNE: Okay. Well, that could be one interesting place to start. You've already read The Shampoo Effect, which-

JANE: I have, yes.

ANNE: This is me kind of nodding and smiling, but nobody can see that. What I like about that is you have an outsider coming in, disrupting the long-held and tacitly agreed-upon conventions of how one small society, that is this friend group, functions. And you've got questions of agency and relationships, not marriage exactly, but relationships, and money, and beauty, and status, and you've got social climbing.

[00:50:38] So contemporary and quite different in genre and feel, but not a stranger to the themes in The House of Mirth. So you've already read that one. And then for something that sounds so different, but again, many of the themes, the underlying themes are similar, have you ever read Patricia Highsmith, and specifically The Talented Mr. Ripley?

JANE: I have not, no.

ANNE: Okay. This is a classic from about 50 years later. It came out in the '50s, and it introduces us to one of the best-known characters in literature that many people know second or thirdhand or from a film, or from the references in books like Jean Hanff Korelitz's The Plot. But this is very readable, still relevant, still referenced all the time, and just continues to influence and inspire new works of fiction.

[00:51:33] So when we meet the Mr. Ripley, Tom Ripley of the title, he's living in New York City. This is set roughly in the present day to when it's written, and he's engaged in some petty crimes. But then he has a chance meeting that changes the course of his life, and soon enough, he's taking off for Italy with the task of persuading an old friend to return home to work in the family business and see his ailing mother. And he has positioned himself fraudulently in order to get this gig. He's a social climber.

So when Ripley gets to Italy, at first he admires his old friend, he's glad to see him, he begins to emulate him, but before long he decides he wants to become him. And the way that Highsmith puts this on the page has definitely made Ripley not just one of literature's best-known characters, but best-known psychopaths.

[00:52:27] This is a true crime classic. It uses the writerly perspective in very interesting ways. I mean, you get a little bit of vicarious travel that you also get in The House on Mars. How is this sounding? Too far-fetched or potentially interesting?

JANE: No, no, that's interesting. That's one of those titles that I've definitely heard of before but have never really had the opportunity or thought about reading it, so I'm definitely intrigued. I do find it interesting that, you know, two crime novels potentially, but that is... nothing wrong with that. It's just kind of a funny coincidence. But I do find that definitely interesting.

ANNE: Yeah, there's not as much crime in Edith Wharton, but you know, a good flight pick might be a nice one about gambling. I don't have any on the top of my head, but that is a major factor in The House of Mirth. I haven't read this one, and don't know terribly much about it, but Jennifer Egan has a novel from a while ago, 2000, 2001, called Look at Me, that has a fair amount of Wharton in it, and name-checks The House of Mirth at one point.

[00:53:35] It's about a young woman who used to be a model, who's in a car wreck bad enough that it ended her career. So she comes back to Manhattan, and no longer has what it takes to enter into the fashion world again, but just kind of floats on the edges, as I understand. And this is supposed to be darkly funny, yet sympathetic, about a woman reaching for a life that's always just out of grasp, like Edith Wharton's Lily Bart.

JANE: No, that sounds interesting as well. I love that it takes place in New York City. My brother and sister-in-law used to live there, and I don't get to go there as often as I used to, but I love novels set there. So that definitely sounds interesting as well. I've heard of Jennifer Egan.

I've never read anything by her before, but that definitely sounds like something I would enjoy, especially something that can be darkly funny. I do tend to really enjoy those. Whenever you're laughing and you're like, "Eh, should I be laughing at this?" I can definitely appreciate that.

[00:54:44] ANNE: Yeah. This is one of her older works, not her debut, but one of her earlier works. She's probably best known for A Visit from the Goon Squad. More recently-

JANE: Yeah, that's the one that I've heard.

ANNE: Yeah, yeah. Manhattan Beach, The Candy House. And let's see. One of my favorite novels that feels like an homage to much classic literature, and is historical fiction, is Amor Towles' Rules of Civility. Have you read that one?

JANE: I have, yes. I love Amor Towles. That one's really good.

ANNE: Readers, if this is unfamiliar to you, this is a book that takes place over the course of one year, beginning on New Year's Eve 1937, when a life-changing encounter in a Greenwich Village... Oh, I want to say it's a jazz bar changes the lives of the two young women and one young man involved. A love triangle develops, and we have a fair amount of social climbing and navigating the rules of money and marriage and society and propriety and class. I really love this book. That holds up on a reread. You know, I wonder if Amor Towles in general feels in the line of Edith Wharton.

[00:56:01] JANE: I can see that, especially with Gentleman in Moscow, which I've read, it's been several years, but I loved the way that he was... It also is about class and kind of the reorganization of the Russia's society. But I loved that one as well.

ANNE: We talked about how flights are for comparing and contrasting, and I'm just thinking about how the function of morals and virtue and what it means to be truly good and what it means to be good on the surface are quite different in like A Gentleman in Moscow versus The House on Mirth.

JANE: Oh, yeah, absolutely. That's interesting to think about.

ANNE: Yeah, because Lily Bart is struggling to master and live by and accede to the hidden rules of old New York high society. Like, in Gentleman in Moscow, it's more obvious that the rules are a sham and it is what is in your heart that matters.

[00:57:08] JANE: Absolutely. That might be one I need to revisit. It's a book that I love so much, but I haven't read it in so long. That might be interesting to reread. I'm not much of a rereader, but sometimes it's absolutely worth it, especially years later, to kind of see how your reading of it changes as you've changed.

ANNE: Could be. And I wouldn't have thought of Jane Austen as a promising flight pick, except that you're reading it right now. And I was saying how my favorite annotation thus far is about gossip. And The House on Mirth is very much about how, I mean, a malicious rumor can destroy your life. And someone sets out to do that to Lily Bart in The House on Mirth. Not that she doesn't do plenty to undermine her own cause. But economic dependency, marriage equals money equals marriage equals security for women. There's a lot in those two books that's quite similar, even though one was written almost 100 years after the other.

[00:58:13] JANE: That is very interesting to think about, just even the different countries, different centuries, but there is a lot to compare and contrast about a woman's place in society and what the freedom they have to do, but also how dependent they still must be. There's definitely a lot of overlap there.

ANNE: Yeah. I hope those flight picks sound interesting. I do wonder, based on what you say you're seeking, if you could channel your English major days and give yourself like a 5 to 10-minute professorial overview about what you will find in the pages of The House on Mirth and then dive in. Like, if you equipped yourself like you were equipping your favorite student that you wanted to have a good reading experience, and then you sent her on her way into the remaining two-thirds of that book, I wonder if that's an assignment that makes sense in the context of this project.

[00:59:12] JANE: No, I think that does. That's a really good idea just to kind of level set and remember like, okay, this is why we're doing it. And also just to kind of start that curiosity to go, because whenever that goes, it just brings a whole lot more delight and enjoyment to the reading experience.

ANNE: I love that you know what is going to make this satisfying for you. And even as I say that, that sounds amazing to me too. Jane, I wonder if you would humor us and tell us the 10 classics on your classics reading list.

JANE: Oh, absolutely. So the first one, obviously we've talked at length about, The House of Mirth by Edith Wharton, then My Ántonia by Willa Cather, Native Son by Richard Wright, East of Eden by John Steinbeck, Fahrenheit 451 by Ray Bradbury, Song of Solomon by Toni Morrison, The House on Mango Street by Sandra Cisneros, The Joy Luck Club by Amy Tan, The Poisonwood Bible by Barbara Kingsolver, and Braiding Sweetgrass by Robin Wall Kimmerer, which that last one is not exactly a classic, but it's one that I've been meaning to read for a while. And also I thought it was important to include an indigenous work in my personal curriculum about American literature.

[01:00:41] ANNE: It doesn't seem too soon to call that a hugely influential American book.

JANE: Yeah, I would agree with that, for sure.

ANNE: And your project, your rules.

JANE: Exactly. Exactly. And I'm not turning this in for a grade. I'm not going to get points off on a technicality. It's what I want it to be.

ANNE: And for any of these, think about the themes or what interests you about the work, why you want to read it, and to start from there on choosing your flight picks. Come to your fellow readers if you need help.

JANE: Yeah, absolutely. Now I'm like, "Okay, I need to sit down and do this process for each of these books." Some of them are obviously a bit more recent than others, so the access point is not going to be quite as difficult to kind of get into that headspace, but I think it's still worth doing to kind of sitting down, set the intentionality kind of the themes that I'm looking for, look up potential pairings, that sort of... Go to the SparkNotes. I want my line SparkNotes if it's available. So just to kind of level set, just got very excited about this, honestly.

[01:01:48] ANNE: Well, that sounds fun.

JANE: Just kind of started to English major-nerd out a little bit.

ANNE: Oh, that sounds like a dream. Now, you're the boss, but I would encourage you to not do that before you read The House on Mirth, or at least how about the next third? The next third of The House of Mirth.

JANE: No, I agree. I will only do it for House of Mirth. I'll do it one at a time. How about that? I will do it one at a time. As I finish one, then I can kind of go to the next... go to the next section, I guess, if you will.

ANNE: That sounds great. Jane, what's your next move on your project?

JANE: So I think what I'm going to do is I do need to pick up House of Mirth again, but before I do that, I think I'm going to do a little biographical reading. The Wharton Plot, I think I'm going to start with that, honestly, and kind of get into that mindset, and then finish The House of Mirth, and then move to one other flight pick suggestions.

[01:02:48] ANNE: That sounds like a solid plan. How are you feeling about it?

JANE: I'm very excited. I'm really looking forward to it.

ANNE: I'm glad to hear it. Jane, thanks so much for the conversation and for bringing your reading project to What Should I Read Next?.

JANE: Oh, thank you so much. This has been so helpful, and it's been such a delight to get to chat books with you.

ANNE: The pleasure's mine

Hey, readers. I hope you enjoyed my conversation with Jane, and I'd love to hear what you think she should read next. Find Jane online. She's on Substack, Instagram, and StoryGraph. We have all those links, along with the full list of titles we talked about today at whatshouldireadnextpodcast.com, as always.

[01:03:32] Sign up for our email list and we will send you an update every week about our latest episode and what is happening at What Should I Read Next HQ. Sign up at whatshouldireadnextpodcast.com/newsletter.

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Thank you to the people who make the show happen. What Should I Read Next? is created each week by executive producer Will Bogel, Media production specialist Holly Wielkoszewski, social media manager and editor Leigh Kramer, community coordinator Brigid Misselhorn, community manager Shannan Malone, and our whole team at What Should I Read Next? and Modern Mrs. Darcy HQ. Plus the audio whizzes at Studio D Podcast Production.

Readers, that's it for this episode. Thanks so much for listening. And as Rainer Maria Rilke said, "Ah, how good it is to be among people who are reading." Happy reading, everyone.

• Dungeon Crawler Carl by Matt Dinniman
• The Twilight series by Stephenie Meyer  (#1: Twilight)
• The Hunger Games series by Suzanne Collins (#1: The Hunger Games)
• The Annotated Pride and Prejudice by Jane Austen, annotated and edited by David M. Shapard
• The House of Mirth by Edith Wharton
• Yesteryear by Caro Claire Burke
• The Shampoo Effect by Jenny Jackson
The Bright Years by Sarah Damoff
• A Tree Grows in Brooklyn by Betty Smith
Into the Blue by Emma Brodie
Blood Over Bright Haven by M. L. Wang
▵ The Shippers by Katherine Center
• Pineapple Street by Jenny Jackson
• Sisters of a Halved Heart by Nayantara Roy
• The Wharton Plot by Mariah Fredericks
• The Talented Mr. Ripley by Patricia Highsmith
• Look at Me by Jennifer Egan
• A Visit from the Goon Squad by Jennifer Egan
• Manhattan Beach by Jennifer Egan
• The Candy House by Jennifer Egan
• Rules of Civility by Amor Towles
• A Gentleman in Moscow by Amor Towles
• My Ántonia by Willa Cather
• Native Son by Richard Wright
• East of Eden by John Steinbeck
• Fahrenheit 451 by Ray Bradbury
• Song of Solomon by Toni Morrison
• The House on Mango Street by Sandra Cisneros
• The Joy Luck Club by Amy Tan
• The Poisonwood Bible by Barbara Kingsolver
• Braiding Sweetgrass by Robin Wall Kimmerer

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The post The delight of a reading rabbit hole appeared first on Modern Mrs Darcy.

When today’s guest felt something shift in her reading life, she found herself turning to other forms of entertainment instead of the books she typically enjoys. Jacquelyn Duggan isn’t thrilled with this substitution, and came to me for help in figuring out what’s changed and what she can do about it.

Jacquelyn is joining me from her home in Richmond, Virginia. In addition to reading, she enjoys being outside and working in her flower garden, with a special appreciation for her zinnias and roses.

Today Jacquelyn and I explore what’s going on with her reading life right now, and I share ideas to help her get back reading the types of books she’s been missing lately. We’ll also discuss the one element of her reading life that hasn’t changed throughout this experience: her love for a great coffee table book.

Please share a title idea for Jacquelyn or a coffee table book you love by leaving a comment below.

Our Fall Book Preview is coming up soon on September 17, and this year we’re featuring a new option to purchase a compact printed booklet to complement your Fall Book Preview experience. We’re calling it our lookbook. It’s been thoughtfully designed in a small format and is pleasantly packed with bookish goodness for the literary season to come along with backlist recommendations perfect for fall from our team.

If you’ve already purchased your a la carte ticket, or you’re a member of our Modern Mrs Darcy Book Club, Patreon All-Inclusive, or Patreon Bonuses & Events Tiers, then you’re all set to receive the digital guide and attend our live Unboxing. If you’d enjoy a little analog delight along with, or instead of, those digital experiences, we think you’ll really love the lookbook. Find out more and select the Fall Book Preview experience that’s right for you at ⁠modernmrsdarcy.com/fbp

JACQUELYN DUGGAN: When I think about what used to be on the table at my grandparents' house, you know, it would be something local, maybe about an area that we live in or something. But I feel like now-

ANNE BOGEL: That's my living room.

JACQUELYN: Yeah. There's nothing wrong with that. I love it. I think it's so interesting, and I think that they can take a whole new perspective now.

ANNE: Hey readers, I'm Anne Bogel, and this is What Should I Read Next?. Welcome to the show that's dedicated to answering the question that plagues every reader, what should I read next? We don't get bossy on this show. What we will do here is give you the information you need to choose your next read. Every week we'll talk all things books and reading, and do a little literary matchmaking with one guest.

[00:00:56] Readers, our Fall Book Preview is coming up soon on September 17th. And this year, our eighth year, we are featuring a new option to purchase a compact printed booklet that we're calling our Look Book to complement your Fall Book Preview experience.

If you've already purchased your a la carte ticket, or you're a member of our Modern Mrs. Darcy Book Club, Patreon, all-inclusive, or Patreon Bonuses and Events tiers, then you're all set to receive the digital guide and attend our live unboxing. If you're not, choose the best way to attend and save your space at modernmrsdarcy.com/fbp. That's for Fall Book Preview.

And if you'd also enjoy a little analog delight, I think you'll really love this year's printed Look Book. We have thoughtfully designed this in a smaller format than our printed magazine-style Summer Reading Guide, so you can tuck it in your journal, take it to the library bookstore, take it to coffee with a friend, take it everywhere, basically. It is pleasantly packed with bookish goodness for the literary season to come, and also includes backlist recommendations perfect for fall from our team.

[00:02:01] We designed this with an accessible price point top of mind. So you can have one sent to your door for right around 10 bucks, and that includes shipping. I think you're going to love it. This year we also prioritized making it stand alone from unboxing in a stronger way than it ever has before. So unboxing's wonderful, but if you know, "I don't have the time to do that this season," as good as it may be, then get our Look Book. It'll come to your mail. It's beautifully done. The professional printing is going to look amazing. I hope you'll take a look, find out more, and select the Fall Book Preview experience that's right for you this year at modernmrsdarcy.com/fbp.

Readers, today's guest has always been clear on her go-to genres, the ones she really loves and that she knows works for her. But lately, something has shifted in her reading life, and she's not sure why or what to do about it.

[00:02:54] Jacquelyn Duggan is joining me from home in Richmond, Virginia, where, in addition to reading, she enjoys being outside and working in her flower garden, with a special appreciation for her zinnias and roses. In her submission, Jacquelyn told us that with this unexplained shift in her reading tastes, she's finding herself skipping the books and turning to other forms of entertainment, like rewatching favorite TV shows.

While we love a good TV show around here, and her favorite shows are favorites for a reason, she is not happy with this substitution. Jacquelyn is hoping I can help her pinpoint what's going on with her reading life right now so she can get back to the books she loves. Or perhaps what she wants to do is get into the new-to-her kinds of books that might be right for her in this season.

There's one element of her reading life that Jacquelyn has remained clear and confident about, and that is her love for a great coffee table book. I love them, too. You know we'll talk about it today. We have recommendations.

Readers, this is going to be fun. Let's get to it.

Jacquelyn, welcome to the show.

[00:03:55] JACQUELYN: Thanks, Anne. I am so, so excited to be here.

ANNE: Oh, the pleasure's mine. I'm really excited about the places we're going to go today.

JACQUELYN: Me too.

ANNE: Jacquelyn, would you start by telling us a little about yourself? What we want to do is give our listeners a glimpse of who you are.

JACQUELYN: Absolutely. Well, I am 33. I live in Richmond, Virginia with my husband, our doodle, Murphy, and our nine-month-old daughter. Life is just a blast right now. It's full and fun and just everything we've dreamed of. I work for a wound care company, actually based out of Seattle, Washington. I'm not a provider, but I support our provider team and our executive team, and it's just really meaningful work. I enjoy it very much.

[00:04:51] Then outside of work, I love to take barre classes at our local barre studio, love to be outside. We have a thriving garden right now, although it's just now starting to thrive. It's been a little hit or miss this summer, but we enjoy that and love to hike and take walks and just be together as a family. And of course, reading is my very favorite way to wind down most days.

ANNE: Speaking of reading, this is open-ended on purpose. Would you tell us about your reading life?

JACQUELYN: Yeah. I know. Right now it takes a lot of forms. I feel like most days I read at the end of the day, and really like to pick up a couple different types of books. I, of course, love a good fiction and really open with that. I enjoy contemporary fiction. I love a good rom-com. I love a mystery. I'll sprinkle in some thrillers here and there.

[00:05:56] But another type of book that I really, really love, I refer to it as a coffee table book. The one that I'm most into right now is The Backyard Bird Chronicles by Amy Tan. I love this one so much just for the visuals of it. She has literal drawings of her birds that she observed in her backyard. It's really like a diary log of just observing birds in her yard.

I put this in the coffee table book category because, you know, when I think back to being a kid and, you know, my mom would have books on the coffee table, my grandparents have books on the coffee table. But I feel like we have such a fun picture, like a fun access to them now. I feel like they've really taken shape. I consider this type of book a coffee table book because you can set it out, you can look at it, put it down.

[00:06:56] I notice when people come over to our house, they'll notice what I have out on the coffee table. It might be a cookbook. It might be a book like Amy Tan's. And it's just fun to see what people do with it. They'll either flip through it, or I'll have friends really dive in and take a look at what I've got, and it always just sparks fun conversation. But I always enjoy reading that at the end of the day. It always feels like a little bit of a bedtime story, like something soothing to kind of close my day that way. So yeah, between fiction and that, that's mostly what I like to read these days.

ANNE: I'd love to hear more about coffee table books. You mentioned in your submission that you felt that they were often underrated and sometimes misunderstood.

JACQUELYN: Totally, totally. Like I said, I feel like they... when I think about what used to be on the table at my grandparents' house or even at my parents' house, it would be something local, maybe about an area that we live in or something. But I feel like now-

ANNE: That's my living room.

[00:08:07] JACQUELYN: Yeah. There's nothing wrong with that. I love it. I think it's so interesting, and I think that they can take a whole new perspective now. One that comes to mind is called A Life in Good Taste. It's a designer in Birmingham, Alabama, and it just shows her home and how she likes to decorate. And that's like a quintessential coffee table book.

But then I also think recently I've been reading Good Things by Samin Nosrat, who wrote Salt Fat Acid Heat. She has this new book out, Good Things, and it's just an account of good things and good recipes. I count that as a coffee table book even though it also obviously is a cookbook and is food writing in its nature. But it looks beautiful out on the table. It's fun to pick up and put back down. I just feel like it brings about warmth and conversation, and that's kind of what I look for when I see it. I almost always have a stack of at least three or four on our coffee table at any time.

[00:09:21] ANNE: Ooh, those are good qualifiers. Warmth and conversation.

JACQUELYN: Yeah.

ANNE: As I imagine what you might have in mind by underrated, I'm thinking about how... you know how readers talk about how certain things aren't real books? Like they look like a book but it's not a real book.

JACQUELYN: Totally.

ANNE: Is that something that people often spuriously apply to coffee table books?

JACQUELYN: 100%. In fact-

ANNE: Like not the kind of book like, "Can I count that in my book journal?"

JACQUELYN: No, literally. In fact, that's an internal conversation I've had with myself is like, "Should I put this down as a book that I've read?" And then I'm like, "Of course. I read the book. Of course it belongs in my shelved book reads." But it's funny because it's different than a quintessential sit down and read a story. But this is every bit of a book as much as something I've picked up from the local bookstore or library.

[00:10:22] And so I think that's what makes them underrated. At least for me, they're just so readable. I just so enjoy sitting down with them, whether it's flipping through photos or, you know, reading the small accounts throughout the book. It kind of depends on who the author is and what they're writing about. But there's just so much that can be gleaned. I feel like I learn so much from my version of a coffee table book, and that just brings me a lot of joy.

ANNE: All right. I'll go first. I'd love to hear a recent favorite, or two or three. I'm thinking about what you said about what makes a coffee table book and why you enjoy them in your reading life and in your space. The most recent one that I acquired is called Art for Everyone, and it's about "don't be scared. You can put art on your walls at home. Here's how."

[00:11:20] This is a book that really benefits from the photography-heavy, lots of visuals format. That isn't characteristic of every single coffee table book, but I know it's where a lot of people's minds go when they think about that kind of book. But it's sitting on one of my coffee tables right now. The regular visitors to our home, who always just kind of see what's around in the house when they come over, have all sat down on the sofa and looked at it and gone, "Ooh, what's this?" And just reached for it and popped it open and...

JACQUELYN: Yes.

ANNE: It's brought me joy. And it makes me want to paint and hang stuff on every wall in my house. But that's not the experience with, you know, most coffee table books.

JACQUELYN: Yeah. No. That's so funny that you say that because I feel like that's the mark of a good coffee table book to me is when friends and family will come over and yeah, they'll gravitate over to the coffee table, and they're like, "What's this?" And they start looking through it. And I can always tell if one isn't grasping someone's attention, they're obviously not going to go for it. But then the ones that get a lot of attention are just always fun to me.

[00:12:29] Like one in particular I have out right now is called A Kitchen in Italy, and it's just this beautiful account. It is a cookbook, but the photos in it are so beautiful and so masterful. It's the story of a kitchen in Italy and what that looks like. Certainly, I might cook from it at some point. I love to cook. I love to be in the kitchen. But mostly I keep it out because it's just so beautiful and fun to read and a fun escape. And so I feel like when a coffee table book can fit into all those categories, that's when you know it's a fun one. But friends love flipping through that one, just because we're all like, "Don't we all just want to go to Italy?"

ANNE: Oh, I love a cookbook on the coffee table. I mean, not just any cookbook, but something that's pretty, that has a lot of stories, even if they're short. Because like you said, you can pop it open into the middle, just kind of see what's there, enjoy it a little bit, put it back, walk away, it doesn't hurt anything. I love that.

Jacquelyn, do you have any other favorites you'd like to share?

[00:13:36] JACQUELYN: There's two that come to mind. One is called Welcome Home by Myquillyn Smith. She has several really lovely books. This one in particular is a favorite of mine because it goes through the seasons of your home with actual seasons throughout the year. And so she talks about cultivating your home in a way that follows the seasons of the calendar.

I just find myself at the beginning of each season, I just always return to her book. In fact, I keep it out most all year because I love to just remind myself like, oh yeah, okay, this season is turning. Here in Richmond, Virginia, we have a typical four season calendar year and really experience fall, winter, spring, and summer. So I just love turning back to her book to say, okay, what does feel like the ushering in a fall and what is the vibrancy of spring? That one is really fun and just beautiful. Really, really well done. I enjoy it.

ANNE: Practical inspiration.

[00:14:53] JACQUELYN: Yes, exactly. Very practical, which I love. Then the other one that I'm enjoying is A Life in Good Taste by a designer in Birmingham, Alabama. Her home is just really beautiful, but she has kids and a life. Again, it feels very practical, but also special, like the way she decorates her home. It's a dream. There's color and pattern. It feels Southern, but it also feels very modern. She just has really good taste, and I just think she marries that really well. It's fun to look through.

And as a funny aside, that one... it's a beautiful book, but it always captures my eye because the pages of the book around the outside are blue, the way the rest of the book is. And so it just looks so pretty, whether you have it spine out or pages out. It always catches my eye. It's different than other books I have.

ANNE: I will say, I value a beautiful cover more highly when it's laying face up on display, basically.

JACQUELYN: I know, I know. The old adage of don't judge a book by its cover. But I do love a beautiful cover. I will be taken by a cover just to see what's inside for sure.

[00:16:18] ANNE: All right, Jacquelyn, what prompted you to come to What Should I Read Next? in this season?

JACQUELYN: I feel like... I don't know if my reading taste has changed or if maybe what I'm looking for from reading is changing. I'd be curious your thoughts about that. Truly, I've listened to your podcast for a long time, many years, and I do feel like I've started to hone in what I like, what I don't like. And I'm actually finding the more I hone that in, the more books I'm interested in. And I give myself more freedom to say, "Actually, I think this is a very good book. It's just not the right book for me, or it's not the right time for this book."

I feel like that has been coming up a lot, especially in this season where I'll start to read something and I'm like, "Okay, this kind of fits my typical genre, typical what I'm looking for, but it's just not resonating right now."

[00:17:24] As I said, we're in a busy season of life, things are full, and so I feel like my reading time is so sacred that I'm like, I really just want to read what I know I'm going to love and don't want to waste my time with filler or anything like that. But also, we've talked about this, and I know other folks on the podcast have said this too. Sometimes you need a little palate cleanser. Sometimes you need something that you know is easy and will be a great page-turner to kind of get you on to the next book and the next thing.

And so I think I'm trying to kind of figure that out right now. I think I've had several books that I'm like, "I think that just missed the mark a little bit, but I can't figure out why." Like I said, I'd be curious to hear your thoughts about that. So that's coming to mind.

[00:18:22] Then another thing that's kind of been plaguing my brain in the background, so much of my day outside of work can be like puttering around the house or taking long walks as a family. We love to put in our earbuds and listen to things all together. But I really haven't dived that much into audiobooks. I feel like every time I want to start an audiobook, I just can't get into it. And I am such a visual person. I love to hold a book or love to read on my Kindle. So I feel like an audiobook would be great. Like there's plenty of opportunity for me to listen to something, but I feel like I haven't quite found something that really captures my interest on audio. I feel like it's easy to get distracted and then find myself then turning to more of a podcast or something quicker and easier to kind of digest in a single sitting.

[00:19:27] ANNE: Okay. I will keep that in mind as we go along. As we think about what kind of books are making your reading time feel worthwhile right now, from the guts, how are you hoping to feel at the end of the next book you finish?

JACQUELYN: I love to feel a sense of resolve, a sense of completion. I love when something just makes you feel really good, regardless of whether it's a happy ending or, you know, tied with a bow at the end. More so just feeling like, oh, that was really good. I love when a book makes me think, but I also love when a book just ends on a really solid note and you just feel like, okay, that's exactly what I was looking for right now. Which feels so meta and hard to put my finger on because it's hard to know that when you pick up a book.

ANNE: It's a good place to start.

[00:20:29] JACQUELYN: I don't know. I don't know how that's going to go. But yeah, I love to feel really captivated and like I spent really good time with the characters and got to know them and got to know their story.

ANNE: Jacquelyn, we have enticing stuff to explore here. I'm excited. Thank you for trusting me with these delicate matters in your reading life. I think next, talking about what you love and don't, would be helpful to move our process forward. Does that sound like we're on a factory line? I didn't mean it like that.

JACQUELYN: I'm here for it. I'm here for the process. I love it. I love it.

ANNE: All right. Well, you know how this works. You brought three books you love, one you don't, and we'll hear about what you've been reading lately, and then we'll see where that leads us. How did you choose these?

[00:21:24] JACQUELYN: Yeah, I know. Of course, the question “three books you love and one you don't”, I really just tried to go with my gut and really tried not to think about it too much. I didn't even look at my bookshelf. I was like, okay, what are three books that just always stand out to me?

The first that I picked is The Thursday Murder Club by Richard Osman. It's so beloved to me. And I think what is special about it to me was it was the right book at the right time. I know we talk about that a lot. I read this during a particularly grief-ridden season, and I just feel like the characters in The Thursday Murder Club series, a little bit about it is... essentially, it's this group of people at a retirement, assisted living community and they solve murders.

[00:22:25] But I think it's more than just solving murders. It's about friendship. It's about their lives. It's about loneliness. It's about aging. There's so much underneath it. I just love this book. I just felt so connected to the characters. Wanted to know what was going to happen next. And thank goodness this is going on, I believe, a six-book series. I've read all of them. But this first one in particular is just special I think because of the time in which it met me. But I also just love it narrates from different viewpoints, which I always enjoy. So yeah, this is a special one. I'm glad for it.

ANNE: I'm glad it stands out. That's The Thursday Murder Club. What's the second book you love?

[00:23:21] JACQUELYN: The second one I love is The Sweet Spot by Amy Poeppel. This one's just fun. I remember exactly where I was when I started reading it. I was reading it on a beach vacation. It's not like a typical beach read, but it read so well at the beach because this book is kind of chaotic. There's a lot of moving parts. And also it's kind of a book where nothing really happens. It more just talks about their life and their relationships and their friendships. I loved that about this book.

It was so readable. It felt just comforting and fun, but also real. It felt like I was reading something that my friend was sharing with me about her life. It's a fun one. And I've read others of Amy's as well. I read Far and Away this fall. That has a very similar feel to it where it's like there is this overarching story and things are happening, but it's a lot about the people and what they're thinking about and going through. I just enjoyed that about this one.

[00:24:33] ANNE: Musical Chairs is my favorite of hers so far.

JACQUELYN: I haven't read Musical Chairs. I really want to.

ANNE: What did you say? Kind of chaotic?

JACQUELYN: Yeah. Is that one kind of chaotic?

ANNE: Mm-hmm. But also very warm. When she talked to us in Book Club, she talked about how she loves groups of threes. She thinks they're so interesting and dynamic and ever-shifting and lots of potential for alliances, but also like standoffs. Nothing resolves and it spins the plot forward. But it's fun and warm.

Her novels often have a strong intergenerational component, which people may not say, like, this is what I'm looking for, but it can still feel real good to read about. Like working intergenerational relationships, even when there's friction and lots of jokiness because of that friction and the gaps in understanding. It's just lots of fun.

[00:25:27] JACQUELYN: You hit the nail on the head. I love an intergenerational read with lots of different perspectives and viewpoints. That's very interesting.

ANNE: Okay. So, that was Amy Poeppel, The Sweet Spot. What did you choose for your final favorite?

JACQUELYN: My final favorite, again, this one is beloved. It's Save Me the Plums by Ruth Reichl. Ruth Reichl, by her trade, is a food critic, and also now as she has evolved in her career, a food writer over time. She's written many books. But this one in particular... this is her most recent, I think.

ANNE: Actually, is her most recent My Kitchen Year? Because we just had that coffee table conversation.

JACQUELYN: Oh, that's right. That's right. Yes, you're right. That one-

ANNE: And I was just thinking now, there's the cookbook coffee table book I really enjoyed. For all the coffee table book reasons. I'm not sure I made a single recipe, but gosh, I enjoyed reading about her food experiences.

[00:26:35] JACQUELYN: I mean, she has had such an interesting life. Save Me the Plums is particularly about her season with Gourmet Magazine.

ANNE: Yes. And My Kitchen Year is the aftermath. Like how I... I don't know if cope is the word Ruth Reichl would have used, but it was her processing moving on.

JACQUELYN: Well, I can imagine because, I mean, as you're reading this book, it's so compulsively readable for being a memoir. You know, memoir can be a little bit more thoughtful, reflective. You know, you're reading about a literal person's life. But this read like a story. It spanned a huge chunk of her life and clearly left an impact on her.

Also, sadly, Gourmet Magazine isn't around anymore. And that's like part of the story, spoiler, that how she kind of came to end that particular chapter that I just... I love her. I think she writes with so much candor and very frank in her thoughts.

[00:27:49] There's a few recipes and things sprinkled throughout, but what I love most about this one is just hearing her perspective and how she talks about food and people and how those two things come together.

My second favorite runner-up to this one, I love Garlic and Sapphires, which talks more about her experience as a food critic, which is just fun and interesting. It feels like... I don't know if this is true because I haven't read all of her books, but it feels like she chooses a season of her life and writes about that in her book. And I love that. I feel like you get such a telescope picture into what was happening during that particular time, which is really fun.

ANNE: So I'm hearing that there is more Ruth Reichl for you if you're looking to seek out that experience.

JACQUELYN: Yeah.

ANNE: Save Me the Plums is also... I mean, it's almost a postmortem, but it's very much how the industry worked, how the industry shifted. Do you enjoy how the sausage is made stuff? Do you enjoy it?

[00:28:57] JACQUELYN: Yes, I do. In fact, I feel like that plays into a lot of books when I think about books that I've loved. I love when something gets kind of nitty-gritty and niche and kind of captures my attention. Food writing for sure, just because I love cooking, I love being in the kitchen. And so anything that talks about someone's perspective in that is really, really fun for me.

ANNE: The details make it feel real?

JACQUELYN: Yes, totally.

ANNE: Make it feel true?

JACQUELYN: Like I'm there with them. Yeah.

ANNE: Okay. That was Save Me the Plums by Ruth Reichl. Jacquelyn, tell me about a book that wasn't for you.

JACQUELYN: This was hard because I decided to go with a book that I actually... when I step back, this is such a well-done book. It's The God of the Woods by Liz Moore. It's such a well-done book. It is captivating. It's sweeping. You feel like you're there with the characters.

[00:30:08] But I picked this one as one that was not for me because it took me... I vividly remember — I read it this past year — it took me almost a month and a half to pick up another book afterwards because of the way it left me feeling. I was really sad by this book. There were so many parts to it that were just on such a guttural level. I don't want to share too much because I don't want to give it away if somebody hasn't read it, but there are threads in that book of people's story that are so raw and real, it just made me really sad. I just couldn't stop thinking about them, which is also maybe the mark of a really good book, right? But when I am reading something, like I said, I want to feel resolved. And I didn't feel resolved with that one. I kept having questions about the girl in the woods, and her family, and the people in her life. It was a tough one. It was a tough one for me.

[00:31:15] ANNE: I heard you say captivating, sweeping, that it had a real sense of immediacy. And also, it was not the emotional experience that, I mean, was really welcome at that moment in time.

JACQUELYN: Yeah, yeah, exactly. I think-

ANNE: So it was too good. Liz Moore was too good.

JACQUELYN: Yes, yes, exactly. It felt like a dagger, for sure.

ANNE: You're not looking for daggers.

JACQUELYN: No.

ANNE: So people who say the highest praise is I was curled up in a fetal position on the floor, not you.

JACQUELYN: That's not what I'm looking for. I want something with depth. I want to have a relationship with the book, but yeah, curled up in a fetal position is maybe not the direction I would go in for my reading.

ANNE: Okay. This is really helpful. Jacquelyn, what have you been reading lately?

[00:32:11] JACQUELYN: Oh my gosh, I just recently finished The Shampoo Effect, which I loved. I loved. I almost picked it as one of my three.

ANNE: Okay. This helps because that's maybe a little snarkier than I might have thought you'd enjoy.

JACQUELYN: Totally. And it's funny because I liked it for that reason. I felt like it was so relatable. My life experience is different from the characters in the book, but everything, truly every character, said or felt something that I was, "I have felt that before. I understand that." And I liked the relatability of it and that it was a little bit, yeah, not... I feel like edgy is the wrong word. Snarky is actually what you said is-

ANNE: I mean, it's real sharp.

JACQUELYN: Yeah, it's really sharp.

ANNE: Okay, for anyone who's read this and can laugh along with me, I mean, Budweiser Manor cracked me up every time.

JACQUELYN: Oh.

ANNE: Every time.

[00:33:05] JACQUELYN: Every time. The other part... this is not giving away any part of the story, but there's this one part where one of the characters is like, "Ugh, what kind of idiot lets their kid share a brush at school and get lice?" There's a lice breakout in her kid's classroom, and then her kids come home and they have lice, and she is mortified. And it's like how many times have we all said that where we're like, "Oh, gosh... come on, and then literally that exact thing happens to us?" And you're like, "Who am I? Who am I to say that?" There was just so many moments like that that I just loved. I thought it was so funny and so good.

And then I'm so, so close to being done with Into the Blue, which is another new release. Again, I'm 80% done, so I don't know how it's going to end, but it's a little bit making me feel like I'm going to end in the fetal position, and I'm not sure how I feel about it.

ANNE: Is this Emma Brodie?

JACQUELYN: Yes, Emma Brodie.

ANNE: Okay. Oh, well, I haven't read this. No predictions. Let us know how it goes.

[00:34:08] JACQUELYN: Oh my gosh, yeah. Again, it's very well done. Very well done.

ANNE: Okay. Jacquelyn, what are you looking for in your reading life right now? The alternate question is would you like this to be different, if that evokes more of what is rising to the top for you during this conversation?

JACQUELYN: Yeah. Yeah. I really want a book that I just can't put down. I think that's actually what I loved about The Shampoo Effect. I just couldn't put it down. Again, it's one of those books where it's like there are things happening in the story, but it's not like a thrilling page-turner where it's very plotty. The way I like to describe it is compulsively readable. I just wanted to know what was going to happen with the characters and their lives. I want more of that. I love the feeling of staying up too late because I couldn't put down a book. I want more of that right now, I think.

[00:35:15] ANNE: I'm thinking about what you said about your reading taste changing, or what you're looking for has changed, but you can't put your finger on it. And you said in your submission that your usual go-to genres like cozy mysteries, a fun rom-com, a thoughtful memoir, are not hitting the spot. So as I hear you speak about your favorites, the picture that emerges is you like warmth and candor. Several of these books have intergenerational elements. The relationships are important here. Finding a calling, finding some kind of meaning is important here.

The Thursday Murder Club... lots of people forget this when they're sitting with the emotional feel of the ending, but it goes some dark places.

JACQUELYN: It does, yeah.

ANNE: But it didn't leave you there.

JACQUELYN: Yep.

ANNE: Which I think is perhaps different from God of the Woods.

[00:36:09] JACQUELYN: Yes. That's such a great call-out. I think we kind of get left in the woods with that proverbial darkness. Whereas, yeah, Thursday Murder Club will kind of... I mean, Richard Osman's writing is so poignant. He will say in like one sentence maybe what God of the Woods said in like a lot of chapters, if that makes sense.

ANNE: I wonder if you'd like Heft by Liz Moore. Goes hard places, leaves you in a different place.

JACQUELYN: Heft?

ANNE: Or even The Unseen World. If you enjoyed her writing, there are other books. Not longer either, though.

JACQUELYN: Yeah, because I thought she was, I mean, truly so well done. Again, that's why I feel bad saying it wasn't what I was looking for, but maybe just the story. Maybe it's just the story.

ANNE: Maybe. But that's just a little aside. But these books are gentle even in the hard things.

JACQUELYN: Yeah, yeah.

[00:37:08] ANNE: But then you brought Shampoo Effect in. One of these things is not like the others, Jacquelyn.

JACQUELYN: Well, when I think about the span of my reading life, one of the books that brought me back to reading, which sounds so funny because this wasn't that long ago, I should say, it brought me back to the true love and enjoyment of reading was Beach Read by Emily Henry. And I know so many people say they loved that book, but what I loved about that one was kind of the sarcastic snarkiness of it, but so relatable, so much fun, warmth, depth. That forever is marked as a book that... again, like, place and time and I really needed it at that time, I think. It's confusing because it kinda also fits in that rom-com category, but is a little bit more thoughtful.

ANNE: So both those books, especially The Shampoo Effect, is... I think I said sharp.

JACQUELYN: Yeah.

[00:38:14] ANNE: But also, how about the reader is in on the joke? It doesn't feel malicious.

JACQUELYN: Yes, exactly. Exactly. You're not backing anybody into a corner. It's not mean, but it's like, ugh, gosh, yeah. We've all been there.

ANNE: Is it a little mean sometimes? I mean, it's a little like, ooh, really?

JACQUELYN: Yeah.

ANNE: Like, did she really choose that path? Did she really say that thing?

JACQUELYN: Yes. Yes.

ANNE: But also, I feel like Jenny Jackson is kinda winking at it. Like, isn't this funny? Isn't this clever?

JACQUELYN: Totally. It's cheeky.

ANNE: Do you see the humor in people's outlandish behavior?

JACQUELYN: Yes, exactly. Exactly.

ANNE: What The Shampoo Effect really does is it expands your options and I think makes them more interesting. So, not sad about that outlier. We just gotta figure out a way to make it part of the picture. Okay, so your reading taste has changed. I'm wondering if anything that we've talked about so far has got your brain working.

[00:39:16] JACQUELYN: Totally. I think what keeps coming to mind is maybe I gravitate towards things I... like are a shoo-in to a typical cozy mystery rom-com. Pretty much if I sit down with one of those, it's going to be a good reading experience. I enjoy them. But maybe in this particular season what I need more of is something that I can really sink my teeth into something that is more resonant, something that is more relational and gripping. I think I sometimes don't know how to find those, because it's hard to look on, you know, the book jacket or hear from someone if I think that might fit the bill.

ANNE: Do you think you also like a portrayal of a world? Like, Save Me the Plums is the world of Gourmet Magazine. The Sweet Spot, you have this... I'm a Kentucky girl who doesn't know how to talk about New York City. But you have this network of relationships and several little hubs.

JACQUELYN: Yes.

[00:40:29] ANNE: Like, there's the school, and The Sweet Spot is a bar, and I think there's a pottery studio in Brooklyn. But it's a world. The Thursday Murder Club, you have your meeting room at the assisted care facility, or it's been a long time since I read that book, where the Thursday Murder Club gathers, and you have the outlying community where the crime takes place. God of the Woods, it is a world. The Shampoo Effect, this tight-knit community. Now I'm just hammering at it now, but do you enjoy that?

JACQUELYN: Yes, totally. I think you're totally hitting the nail on the head with that, that I love being immersed into place and time, however that ends up looking.

ANNE: Okay. Talk to me about food writing.

JACQUELYN: It just always appeals, no matter who is writing it, what it's about, whether it's a gritty, like Anthony Bourdain, or more specific, like Ruth Reichl. Another good one that I read several years back was Finding Freedom by Erin French. That one is more of, like, a personal story of her as a chef, less about the food, more about her as a person.

[00:41:40] I just love all of it. I love hearing how food impacts people and what that could mean for their life, whether they're a chef or just a regular person who enjoys it.

ANNE: I'm ready. Are you ready to do this?

JACQUELYN: I'm excited.

ANNE: Okay. This is going to be learn by trial and error. All right, Jacquelyn, you enjoyed The Thursday Murder Club by Richard Osman, The Sweet Spot by Amy Poeppel, and Save Me the Plums by Ruth Reichl. We decided The God of the Woods by Liz Moore was too well done. It was not for you because she crafted this very specific emotional, intellectual experience that was not for you when you were reading that book. And we don't want you to be put off reading for another month and a half.

And lately you've been reading...Well, we talked a lot about The Shampoo Effect by Jenny Jackson. You mentioned the coffee table book, Good Things by Samin Nosrat. Oh, you're about to finish Into the Blue by Emma Brodie, and you're afraid it's going to leave you in a puddle on the floor. I don't believe those were your exact words.

[00:42:47] What stood out was perhaps you want this experience of emotional resonance, reading about relationships, but you're not sure how to filter for that when you're looking. You love food writing. You love a strong sense of place. You love a portrait of a world. Can I try a few?

JACQUELYN: Yeah, totally.

ANNE: Okay. Now, I'm hoping you haven't read any of these so I can be the one to introduce you, but we'll find out. Have you read any Elizabeth Acevedo?

JACQUELYN: No, but I've heard you talk about her, and it's always been in the background. But no, I haven't actually picked up any of hers.

ANNE: Okay. I am not the boss of you, but I am... I want to say giddy about the possibility for a reading experience where you listen to specifically... I mean, her books are great. She's got a new one coming out. She's amazing. I'll follow her anywhere. But With the Fire on High is the book for you.

[00:43:47] It came out in 2019. It is not a novel in verse, because she's written several, and some readers think she's only written that, though she might describe herself as a poet first, which means she knows how to make the words fall in a pleasing place.

She reads her own work. Her performa... I mean, you feel like... I've wondered how much trust is a factor for you. But Elizabeth Acevedo inspires readerly trust, that I'm not sure where this is going, but I trust you to take me there. And she's gifted at writing about hard things, hard truths, hard relationships in a way that still feels accessible and gentle because she... I haven't even told you about her protagonist, but the side characters in an Elizabeth Acevedo novel, I mean, they have presence and personality, and they bring something specific to the story that helps the protagonist, but also feels real good and supportive to the reader.

[00:44:48] So With the Fire on High is this story about a teenage single mother that subverts every expectation the reader has or that culture has delivered or you read about in the news or... Our protagonist is Emoni. She's 17. She's always been told she has a magical touch in the kitchen, and she wants to be a chef, which feels really inaccessible in a lot of ways, especially she doesn't have the time or money to get trained, even though her school has this new culinary arts class that they might even be going to Spain together, and she wants to do this so badly.

But she's a 17-year-old single mother, and even though she has amazing friends, and just her abuela is so supportive and wonderful and you are going to want to, like, I don't know, carry her around with you until the end of time and have her tell you what to do and give you pep talks when you need it, it's a lot.

[00:45:41] So she's not sure how she's going to be able to work part-time and provide for her child, and pay for this class, and learn to be a chef, but this is an Elizabeth Acevedo novel, and she is going to figure it out. She is Emoni. I believe all Acevedo's novels are in the first person. But she's going to walk you through the recipes that she enjoys making and creating. She's going to give you some real talk about what's hard and also what's really satisfying and what makes her feel like a good life is possible, even if she's dealing with custody issues, and trying to make ends meet, and not getting support she needs from some places, and budding teenage romance, even as a mom.

The way that these things are woven through the story... like the portrait of a world here is incredible. The author's narration does not hurt one bit. The settings are Philadelphia and also Spain, and you just get to sink into a world... Her novels are also not long, but they're immediately like you are in it with the protagonist, who's like, "Listen up. This is what's happening. Pay attention." How does this sound?

[00:46:56] JACQUELYN: Oh, I love what you said that you will trust Elizabeth Acevedo to take you there in the book. That's really standing out to me. That might not know it's happening, but I love that it packs a punch. I think this one sounds really good, and of course, the food element and then the travel element. Yeah, it sounds really great. Excited about this one. Would you say it's also good on audio? Like, would it be worth trying that one on audio or reading it just like a regular book?

ANNE: Oh, when I say the way Elizabeth Acevedo tells you, I am picturing her speaking into your earbuds.

JACQUELYN: Yes. Okay.

ANNE: I mean, her voice on the page, great, but she reads her own work, and her audiobooks are fabulous. I mean, they're the kind of books that people say, "I don't say this often, but oh my gosh, listen to the audio. Don't read the print." People say that about this book.

JACQUELYN: Okay, that's really good to know.

[00:47:53] ANNE: Yes. Please, try this on audio and see how that goes. Readers have different audiobook styles. I mean, some people really love listening to fact and wouldn't dream of doing fiction on audio, and some are the reverse. I'm more the reverse. I like fiction and memoir myself. And that's just me, I don't know, how my brain works, I suppose. But see how it goes. See if this novel works for you.

JACQUELYN: Okay. I'm excited.

ANNE: I'm excited. I hope you try it. I can't wait to hear what you think. Okay. I'm so intrigued by exploring different kinds of food writing and how they can portray pictures of a world. I think often we think of food as being something that... being like a coffee table book. Yeah. Like warm and welcoming and inviting. But food can be more socially and emotionally and sometimes physically complex than that. Thinking about Piglet by Lottie Hazell or Lake Effect by Cynthia D'Aprix Sweeney. I don't believe those are the emotional reading experiences you're looking for right now, either one.

[00:49:00] But I'm wondering about The Reservation by Rebecca Kauffman. Do you know this book? It came out in February 2026.

JACQUELYN: No, I don't know it.

ANNE: This would not be on the table if you didn't enjoy The Shampoo Effect.

JACQUELYN: Okay, fun.

ANNE: It would be a little sharp. The setting of this book is the only fine dining spot in a Midwestern college town. The reservation of the title is a dinner reservation. A big reservation. Like an anticipated reservation. John Grisham is coming to campus, and everyone at the restaurant knows that he has dinner reservations at their restaurant that night, and everybody is excited in a different way, either because like, "Oh, steaks, I know my boss cares about this," or like, "Oh my gosh, I've read every one of his books."

[00:49:53] The characters feel a bunch of ways about this. The school booked a reservation, John Grisham is coming for dinner, and the restaurant is abuzz. But everything goes wrong all day long, beginning in the morning when the one character walks through the back door of the restaurant, opens the walk-in, and goes, "Where are the steaks? The steaks that we're supposed to be serving to John Grisham are missing."

You want a book that's relational. And I'm wondering if this could be frustrating or fascinating to you, because we rotate through the perspectives of, I believe, every person who works at the restaurant, from the newest hire to the owner, long-time bartender, newer pastry chef, we get everybody throughout the day. And so you see this web of relationships, but you're building a picture through the course of the novel. So over the course of a single day...

JACQUELYN: That sounds really good, yeah. You're getting different perspectives, yeah.

[00:51:03] ANNE: So you get everyone's individual perspectives on what's happening through the course of the day. We rotate through all the people who work at the restaurant. There's plenty of workplace drama on an ongoing basis, but also because of the missing steaks. You get backstories of different characters. Some of these people you are going to actively dislike. Like, the owner is terrible. You will feel bad for everybody working with her. But reading about them can still be really fun. There's, of course, food involved in the restaurant.

This book isn't really about John Grisham at all, but why is it so fun that he's referred to specifically by name, and they talk about his books? The specificity of it somehow is delightful. Now, there's a scene that involves a chef because it matters for the restaurant, but also for his own pleasure, makes a perfect crème brûlée at one moment. I think that might be very satisfying.

[00:52:02] I thought the ending was perfect. You can decide and see what you think. But this book that was often so messy I felt like ended in a place of peace and resolution. But you can read it and we discuss, if this sounds like a reading experience you might want to have. What do you think?

JACQUELYN: Oh my gosh, definitely. I'm totally intrigued by this one.

ANNE: This is not the place I would experiment with audio. I mean, you can make your own decisions, but this does not make me think like, "Oh, for sure, try it. Likely to succeed." I don't know about that.

JACQUELYN: That's good to know.

ANNE: Okay, Jacquelyne, I think it's worth mentioning that so many food memoirs are resonant about relationships, such good food writing, or portraits of a world. I wonder if Crying in H Mart is the kind of place you want to go right now. That's one of my favorites. So well done.

JACQUELYN: So well done.

ANNE: Maybe too good, depending.

[00:52:56] JACQUELYN: Yeah. Yeah. It's funny, I started that one a couple years ago, and I didn't finish it. Again, not because I didn't think it was good, but maybe it was just not the right book at the right time. But it did feel along the lines of... Again, I feel like I can't speak to it because I didn't finish it, but it felt very sad to me, and I wasn't ready for that at the time.

ANNE: Okay. Have you read any Bill Buford?

JACQUELYN: No.

ANNE: He wrote Heat about his experience in an Italian kitchen. It was everywhere briefly in maybe like 2015, 2016. That's for the readers who know. But his... I don't know if follow-up is the right word, but he wrote a memoir about his French experience that was published in 2020. It's called Dirt: Adventures in Lyon as a Chef-in-Training, Father, and Sleuth Looking for the Secret of French Cooking. Something I think might appeal here, or maybe I'm projecting, and I'm so sorry if I am, but you tell me, is he accidentally... I mean, he and his wife, who's a wine critic in her own right, he started as a journalist for The New Yorker. And then for an assignment, he worked in a kitchen in some fancy DC restaurant for a time and really did a major career pivot as a result of this.

[00:54:20] So he wrote Heat that was all about Italian cooking. And then he's married to a wine expert, and he decides, "You know, I'm on this path. I'm going to deepen my culinary training." And where do you go if you want to do that? Often the answer is France. So they move to France for six months with their twin three-year-old boys. So you can have your vicarious raising my kids in France experience.

And the plan was six months, but they stay for five years. And so much of this book is about living life in France. But also, he's there to deepen his skills as a chef, which means through this book you get these lush, vividly detailed accounts of these illustrious French kitchens, the culture that makes that food possible, the things that he does not know and has to learn. I listened to him on audio. I really enjoyed his audio narration. But I definitely skipped a few moments in his story of attending a pig slaughter, because they're going to make sausage.

JACQUELYN: Sure, sure.

[00:55:29] ANNE: He befriends the owner of a local bakery. The locals are like, "Who are you, American? We don't care to get to know you." But over time he's welcomed in and deepens relationships. He's got a strong sense of humor, insightful. He's like your tour guide on the ground, just giving you the lay of the land for the food and the city and the nation.

And then some of my favorite parts are what he learned when his kids went to school. What that experience was like, how different it was from anything they might have expected back in New York, and what it was like to live there. What it's like to go to dinner as a family of four when two of them are twin six-year-olds. How does that sound?

JACQUELYN: Oh, that sounds so much fun. I have a particular interest in France right now anyways from a food perspective. Julia Child's My Life in France is one of my very favorites, and so I like that this one is a little bit of a modern, not at all like a twist on her book, but just a modern take on it and somebody else's perspective on food and France and life there. I'm excited about this one. I think that would be fun, and especially maybe to try on audio.

[00:56:44] ANNE: I'm excited about that for you. Speaking of Julia Child and memoirs, Ann Mah has one following explicitly in Julia Child's footsteps called Mastering the Art of French Eating. Maybe-

JACQUELYN: Yes, that's right. I have it on my bookshelf. I've never picked it up, but it has been there, and I've looked at it many times. That would be a fun one to pick up.

ANNE: Okay. Jacquelyn, can I leave you with a book that feels squarely aligned with your three favorites?

JACQUELYN: Yes. Yeah, definitely.

ANNE: Okay. I am wondering about J. Ryan Stradal's The Lager Queen of Minnesota. Come to think of it, we haven't had a new book from him in a while. I think I'm going to look that up next and see if there's anything in the pipeline. But many authors know him from his debut, Kitchens of the Great Midwest. But in this one, his sophomore novel, I believe, it follows several generations of a Minnesota family as they work to wrest their way into the brewing industry.

[00:57:52] And it tears up the family for a time, and this huge rivalry ensues, which means you get to hear lots about the details of why one's beer is better than the other one's beer. But it's not going to end in a bad place. I hope that you will feel this is an author you can trust, that you'll feel like you're in good hands, that it will feel resonant and relational, and that you'll enjoy the places it takes you to. There's lots of humor throughout, lots of fun stories involving food, lots of bar snacks, and of course, there's the beer brewing as they work through figuring out how they're going to make the good stuff.

My favorite logline I've heard in this book is, "Grandma's brewing beer," which is definitely what this book is about. But even though there's plenty of tense moments, there are side characters to rescue our main characters when necessary, which really means the tone is persistently hopeful. And on audio, this is one to try. You have your authentic Midwestern accents.

JACQUELYN: Oh, the best.

[00:58:54] ANNE: I hope this feels like one that grabs you immediately, and then that you can sit back and enjoy hearing how the families are going to work things out interrelationally and also with their business.

JACQUELYN: Yeah. Okay, I'm excited about that one. The Lager Queen of Minnesota.

ANNE: That's the one.

JACQUELYN: Okay. That's fun.

ANNE: All right, Jacquelyn. Of the books we talked about today, With the Fire on High by Elizabeth Acevedo, The Reservation by Rebecca Kauffman, Dirt, the memoir by Bill Buford, and then we snuck in The Lager Queen of Minnesota by J. Ryan Stradal, are any of those sounding good? Are any of those sounding good on audio?

JACQUELYN: Yeah. I think I'm going to try The Lager Queen of Minnesota on audio. I'm excited about that one. I think I'm going to pick that one up next.

[00:59:49] ANNE: I'm glad to hear it. How are you feeling about things? You have any insight?

JACQUELYN: Great. Oh my gosh, I feel like what I'm taking away is particularly what you called out of, like, trusting the author. That is really, really standing out to me. And then the blend of kind of being dropped into a world and getting to spend time there with them. Those two things are really standing out to me. That feels helpful as I'm thinking about future books and what I'm looking for.

ANNE: Okay. Well, I'm glad it seems helpful now. I'm interested in hearing what happens when you proof test that against the reality of your reading life.

JACQUELYN: Yeah, for sure. For sure. Yeah, me too.

ANNE: I've enjoyed this so much.

JACQUELYN: Yeah, me too.

ANNE: Thank you so much for talking books with me today.

JACQUELYN: Yes, thank you so much, Anne. Appreciate it.

[01:00:46] ANNE: Hey, readers. I hope you enjoyed my conversation with Jacquelyn, and I'd love to hear what you think she should read next. Find the full list of titles we talked about today at whatshouldireadnextpodcast.com.

If you'd like to hear episodes like today's without the ads, we have a new option for you to do just that. Join us over on Patreon, where you can sign up to receive ad-free episodes directly to your podcast feed for just $5 a month. And if you'd like even more book talk in your life, bundle ad-free episodes with our weekly bonuses and live events in our Patreon all-inclusive tier. Find out more and see the options at patreon.com/whatshouldireadnext.

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[01:01:42] Thanks to the people who make this show happen. What Should I Read Next? is created each week by executive producer Will Bogel, Media production specialist Holly Wielkoszewski, social media manager and editor Leigh Kramer, community coordinator Brigid Misselhorn, community manager Shannan Malone, and our whole team at What Should I Read Next? and Modern Mrs. Darcy HQ. Plus the audio whizzes at Studio D Podcast Production.

Readers, that's it for this episode. Thanks so much for listening. And as Rainer Maria Rilke said, "Ah, how good it is to be among people who are reading." Happy reading, everyone.

• The Backyard Bird Chronicles by Amy Tan
• Interiors for a Life in Good Taste by Caroline Gidiere
• Good Things by Samin Nosrat
• Art for Everyone: How to Collect Art & Personalize Your Space on Any Budget by Liz Lidgett
• A Kitchen in Italy: A Year of Family Meals and Celebrations from Our Home by Mimi Thorisson
• Welcome Home: A Cozy Minimalist Guide to Decorating and Hosting All Year Round by Myquillyn Smith
The Thursday Murder Club by Richard Osman
The Sweet Spot by Amy Poeppel
• Far and Away by Amy Poeppel
• Musical Chairs by Amy Poeppel
Save Me the Plums by Ruth Reichl
• My Kitchen Year: 136 Recipes That Saved My Life by Ruth Reichl
• Garlic and Sapphires by Ruth Reichl
▵ The God of the Woods by Liz Moore
• The Shampoo Effect by Jenny Jackson
• Into the Blue by Emma Brodie
• Heft by Liz Moore
• The Unseen World by Liz Moore
• Beach Read by Emily Henry
• Finding Freedom by Erin French
• With the Fire on High by Elizabeth Acevedo
• Piglet by Lottie Hazell
• Lake Effect by Cynthia D’Aprix Sweeney
• The Reservation by Rebecca Kauffman 
• Crying in H Mart by Michelle Zauner
• Dirt by Bill Buford 
• My Life in France Julia Child
• Mastering the Art of French Eating by Ann Mah
• The Lager Queen of Minnesota by J. Ryan Stradal

: Guest favorite book
▵: A book they didn’t love

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The post Books that foster a sense of warmth and good conversation appeared first on Modern Mrs Darcy.

Today’s guest is recently retired and is excited to have more time to read in this chapter of life. She wants to find good books and, in particular, long books that she can really sink into, but her library holds keep wreaking havoc with her well-laid plans. When Amy Czuba wrote into our submissions page with this plea for help, we could not say no.

After wrapping up her career as a global HR leader, Amy said goodbye to Massachusetts after living there for nearly 40 years and moved to Charleston, South Carolina, where she’s now enjoying soaking up the history of her new hometown. 

Amy is here today seeking ideas for those long books that she’s craving. She would especially enjoy a book that teaches her about a topic she might not otherwise learn about. Amy also has a goal to read more books from her as-yet-unread pile of titles that she already owns, but she cannot resist a shiny new library book that’s available for checkout at her local branch, and this is keeping her from reading through her owned titles. I have ideas to share.

We’d love to hear your library holds list strategies: please share those with Amy and all of us by leaving a comment below.

Our eighth annual Fall Book Preview releases on Thursday, September 17th to members of Modern Mrs Darcy Book Club and our Patreon All-Inclusive and Bonuses & Events tiers, plus our a la carte ticket holders. The Fall Book Preview experience includes our 12-page digital PDF lookbook and an invitation to our live Unboxing event happening at 8:00 p.m. Eastern Time on September 17th. This year we are also offering a printed, delivered by snail mail lookbook that is available as an add-on to your Fall Book Preview experience order or as a standalone purchase. This year’s lookbook is different from past editions in several ways, including its format: it’s 6 by 9 inches, 12 pages, and designed as a professionally printed, genuinely useful, delightful little zine kind of lookbook that will ship straight to your mailbox for around 10 bucks, including shipping. We hope the lower cost makes it easy to say yes to our lookbook this year.  Mark your calendars, get your a la carte ticket, or just get more information at modernmrsdarcy.com/fbp.

AMY CZUBA: I have to tell you, like I said, I just went to the DMV in South Carolina to get my license, and it's been really, really hard not to drive myself immediately over to the local library and get a library card. I know I will do it, but I'm trying really hard not to do it right away.

ANNE BOGEL: Because why?

AMY: Well, because then I'll be back in the problem of getting all the library books.

ANNE: Hey readers, I'm Anne Bogel, and this is What Should I Read Next?. Welcome to the show that's dedicated to answering the question that plagues every reader, what should I read next? We don't get bossy on this show. What we will do here is give you the information you need to choose your next read. Every week we'll talk all things books and reading, and do a little literary matchmaking with one guest.

[00:00:54] Readers, we are airing this conversation on September 1st, which means fall is nearly here, and that means one thing at What Should I Read Next? HQ. It is almost time for our Fall Book Preview. Our eighth annual fall preview releases on Thursday, September 17th to members of Modern Mrs. Darcy Book Club and our Patreon all-inclusive and bonuses and events tiers, plus our à la carte ticket holders.

Once again, our Fall Book Preview experience includes our 12-page digital PDF lookbook and an invitation to our live unboxing event happening at 8:00 p.m. Eastern Time that night, September 17th, plus our unboxing video recording. This year we are also offering a printed, delivered by snail mail lookbook that is available as an add-on to your Fall Book Preview experience order or as a standalone purchase.

[00:01:43] This year's lookbook is different from past editions in two big ways. Maybe three ways, actually. The first is that to a greater extent than in any of our previous spring and fall previews, I wanted this year's lookbook to stand alone and be useful apart from unboxing. And unboxing is fabulous and useful and will do great things for your fall reading life, and I hope you will come. But fall is busy, and if you don't feel like you have time for that, get the lookbook. It's great. It's 6 by 9 inches, 12 pages. It has an inky, kinda hand-stamped, zine-inspired, pleasantly packed with readerly goodness kinda feel, and it's more than a list of titles. I clearly lay out the four and five-star reads I've already enjoyed for the season to come.

And I gotta tell you, this section is a lot bigger than I initially thought it would be before I started reading from the just astounding selections that are on offer this fall. Plus, in the lookbook, there are dozens more of my most anticipated titles and short descriptions, and I do mean short, about each one of them. My team chimes in in our lookbook with their most anticipated fall releases, plus backlist favorites that feel just right for fall. You are going to want to tuck this lookbook in your journal, take it to the library and bookstore, or bring it to coffee with a friend so you can talk about great fall books.

[00:02:58] Now, this year, from the beginning, I also prioritized designing this little lookbook in a way that we could deliver a professionally printed, genuinely useful, readerly, delightful little zine kind of lookbook straight to your mailbox for right about 10 bucks, including shipping. And we did it. I hope the low cost makes it easy to say yes to our lookbook this year.

Mark your calendars, get your à la carte ticket, or if you're not yet a member of one of our communities, sign up now and enjoy our original Fall Book Preview experience as an included perk. Talked a lot about the lookbook in the past couple minutes because that's so different this year, but the full Fall Book Preview experience is worth taking part in, and I hope you will. Sign up now, place your order, or just get more information at modernmrsdarcy.com/fbp for Fall Book Preview. That's modernmrsdarcy.com/fbp.

[00:03:52] Readers, today's guest wrote into our submissions page with a plea we could not say no to. Amy Czuba is recently retired. Not too long ago, she wrapped up her career as a global HR leader, then said goodbye to Massachusetts after living there for nearly 40 years and moved south to Charleston, South Carolina, where she's now enjoying soaking up the history of her new hometown.

She enjoys pairing an active reading life with being active outside, getting out to walk, play golf, and tennis. As you'll hear, she is excited to have more time to read in retirement. She wants to find good books and, in particular, long books that she can really sink into, but her library holds keep wreaking havoc with her well-laid plans.

Amy is here today seeking ideas for those long books that she's craving. She would especially enjoy a book that teaches her about a topic she might not otherwise learn about. Amy also has a goal to read more books from her as-yet-unread pile of titles that she already owns.

[00:04:51] This is really important to her, and she has already identified a major obstacle in making this happen. She cannot resist a shiny new library book that's available for checkout at her local branch. Amy wants to know if I can save her from her library holds. Amy, I hope so. I have ideas. We will see what she thinks. Readers, let's get to it.

Amy, welcome to the show.

AMY: Thank you so much, Anne. I am super-duper excited about being here, and probably still having heart palpitations from that email I got.

ANNE: Well, I'm excited you're excited. Thanks for coming on.

AMY: My pleasure.

ANNE: Amy, we'd like to start by giving our readers a glimpse of who you are. Can you tell us a little about yourself?

AMY: Sure. So I'm calling from Charleston, South Carolina. My husband Steve and I just recently moved here a few weeks ago, after living in Massachusetts for 40 years, so that was a big move for us. But the other recent big thing for me is I just recently retired, couple of months ago. Retired. I worked at a large global technology firm. I used to say I'm the least technical person working at a technology firm.

[00:05:59] I was a director of HR. I had a global team of HR chat reps that I managed. Really super fun job. I miss the people a lot. But one fun fact about that is that I took your podcast format, and I used it for my quarterly check-ins and year-end annual performance reviews. So the format that I used was, tell me three things that went well, one thing then that didn't, and what you've been working on lately for your development. And it was just such a great format to kinda kick off those conversations and kinda hear from people.

ANNE: Ooh. Well, I love that. Thank you.

AMY: You're welcome. I just gave credit in my meetings. I'm like, "You guys know I got this from a podcast that I listen to." And so it was always fun.

When I'm not reading, I enjoy staying active. I like to go for walks, maybe jump on my Peloton bike. My husband and I both golf. He is a little bit better. I'm pretty terrible at it, but I do enjoy it. Play a little tennis. Anything to kinda just keep moving.

[00:06:56] We also recently learned how to play mahjong, which is, you know, sweeping the nation by storm, I think, and that's been a lotta fun. I personally love going on historical tours, so Charleston has been a great city to move to for that. Of course, New England was great, living in Massachusetts all that time. And then, you know, we also just enjoy going to the beach with a great book. That's very fun as well.

Then also, as a family, we love Disney, and we tend to go about once a year, and I always bring, or not always, but I have been known to bring a book in my backpack into the park so that I have something to read while we're standing in line, or while I'm waiting for the rest of the family to get off a ride that I don't like to go on anymore. So always have a book with me, for sure.

ANNE: I mean, I believe that's a rule many of our listeners live by.

AMY: Absolutely.

ANNE: Now, Amy, this is broad on purpose. Would you tell us about your reading life?

[00:07:52] AMY: Sure. I tend to read about 50 books a year. I don't watch a lot of TV, so that gives me time to read. I love to read every night before I go to bed, and I'll sneak it in throughout the day whenever I have a few extra minutes. Like I mentioned, I try not to go anywhere without a book, although the other day we went to the DMV to register our cars and get our new licenses, and I was so wrapped up, Anne, with all of the paperwork that we needed, that I left my book on the counter of our kitchen. Luckily the wait wasn't too long, but as I was driving over there, I'm like, "Oh, shoot, I forgot my book."

ANNE: I think I read half a book the last time I was at the DMV.

AMY: I believe that.

ANNE: I'm glad it wasn't too bad.

AMY: I believe that. And the thing is is I like a hardcover book, so I'm not going to pull up a book on my phone. I don't even use my Kindle anymore really for the most part. I like the actual book. I do like audiobooks too. I mean, love audiobooks. I've read some of my favorite books on audio, but I always listened while I was commuting to work, and so to be honest, I really haven't listened to an audiobook since I retired, so I'm a little sad about that.

[00:08:55] The types of books that I love to read, like my go-to genre has always been historical fiction. That's my favorite. But I really love narrative nonfiction. I like literary fiction. I love biographies and memoirs. And when I want to mix things up or get like a palate cleanser, I love a good mystery or a crime thriller. I feel like those are kinda my comfort reads. When I need to mix something up, I'll go back to a series with the same characters that I just love having them solve another mystery. And I'm the type of reader I don't try and figure out the mystery, so I'm always surprised at the end, which makes it great.

I'm in a couple of book clubs so I tend to end up reading maybe some books that I wouldn't normally choose, and that's always good. I really have to have my books grounded in reality. I don't like any kind of sci-fi or fantasy or magical realism and that type of thing. And I have tried. I mean, like, my husband loves sci-fi and fantasy, and he's tried to get me to read some of those books, and they're just not for me.

[00:09:53] Now, the only exception to that is I recently read Hail Mary on audio, and I absolutely loved it. But the reason why I loved it was because of the characters, not so much the science and all that kind of stuff.

Romance will fill the spot once in a blue moon. I generally don't like it because I find it's just too fluffy, and obviously it's predictable. But, you know, every once in a while it will hit the spot. Bookstores, love going into a bookstore. I can't go into one without buying at least something. But I'm really addicted to my library. I mean, I just walk into a library and think, "Oh my gosh, look at all these free books."

And when I hear about a book that I want to read, I end up just immediately going to my library app and requesting it. And then all of the library books come in at the same time, and I'm walking out of the library with a stack of books and coming into the house, and my husband's looking at me like, "What are you doing?" I'm like, "They all came in at the same time. I can't help it."

[00:10:51] My mom just said to me this morning, "I think the Franklin Library is going to go out of business since you moved." And I said, "That is not true." But I do really enjoy the library and getting the books. I have to tell you, like I said, I just went to the DMV in South Carolina to get my license, and it's been really, really hard not to drive myself immediately over to the local library and get a library card. I know I will do it, but I'm trying really hard not to do it right away.

ANNE: Because why?

AMY: Well, because then I'll be back in the problem of getting all the library books. And I have so many boxes of books here, Anne, that we are unpacking. I've gotten a few of them unpacked. But, like, all these books that I own that I would like to read, and I have not to get to them because I'm always reading the library books. It's a problem.

ANNE: Amy, I think we should tell our listeners that the headline on your submission was, "Please save me from my library holds."

AMY: Yes.

[00:11:51] ANNE: Your relationship with your library sounds amazing, except it seems... I'm imagining that it's not delivering the reading life you want, the reading experiences you want. Is what's the opportunity cost here the right question?

AMY: Yes.

ANNE: Tell me what I need to know.

AMY: Okay, so here's the way my brain thinks. When I go into a bookstore and I'm going to purchase a book, I want to get the very best book I think I'm going to love, that I'm going to pass off to my friends. And so I buy what I think are going to be the top five-star reads. I'm buying those in person, and now they're on my bookshelf. When I think of the library, I'm like, "Oh, well, there's no harm, no foul. If I don't like the book, I'll just request it, and if it's not great, that's fine, because I didn't pay for it."

So what ends up happening is, a lot of times I'm requesting books from the library that, ah, those sound pretty good, but maybe they don't sound amazing. And so I get a lot of pretty good books from the library, but meanwhile, some of the books that I think are going to be the best sit on my bookshelf unread. So it's kind of a mixed bag. I mean, sometimes I get amazing books from the library. And actually, some of the very best books I've gotten from the library, and now I'm sad that they're not on my actual bookshelf. So it's a mixed bag of problems.

[00:13:05] ANNE: Amy, I did notice that when you described what you love about the library, like you walk in, you see what you want, you take it home, I did notice that when you hear about a book you want to read, you request it immediately. When you walk in, you grab what looks good. This sounds so much fun. And also, it sounds like there's not a lot of filter in place. Like, you may more carefully filter... I mean, you just said what you get in the bookstore.

AMY: Mm-hmm.

ANNE: All right. Amy, this is kind of weird for me, but I'm thinking of a clothing shopping analogy. I don't like to clothing-shop. I really like to shop for books. But I'm thinking how when I'm going through the items on the sales floor, there's a lot of stuff that looks like it could be promising, but the next step is I take it into the dressing room and I evaluate it and see if it fits and see if it works, and I take home a fraction, if anything, of what I walked into the dressing room with.

[00:13:57] And I wonder if this is kind of the difference between shopping at the bookstore, where perhaps you're, like, going into the dressing room and vetting them a little more carefully versus requesting things or picking things up at the library where you're like, "Oh, that looks good. That looks good." I guess your dressing room is at home when it comes to the library.

AMY: Yes. I mean-

ANNE: So at some point you have to filter.

AMY: Exactly. Yeah. And I'm filtering really carefully at the bookstore because I'm going to pay money for them, right? You want to make sure it's really, really good, something that I've wanted for a while, that I've heard about for a while. And yeah, with the library books... and you never know when they're going to come in, so it's always a surprise.

You might get something that's great, or you might get something that's marginal, or something's like, "Why did I even request this book? I don't even remember." But it's a low-risk thing because you can just return it if it's not for you.

[00:14:47] The other problem with my library books is, like, I can't tell you how many times I've checked out a book one, two, three times, and I've always had to return it because I never got to it. So that happens to me also.

ANNE: Okay. So it doesn't cost you anything in cash.

AMY: But it costs me my time, because I'm spending time reading those, whereas I've got some books that I own that I'm not making the time to get to, which is crazy.

ANNE: Now, you've said a couple things that we could explore more. I did notice that you said there, you don't know when your holds are going to come in. Would it change things if you could? Because in many library systems, it's possible to know, and even to choose or prioritize when your holds come in. So that is something to explore.

I also notice that you don't always remember why you requested something, and I wonder if implementing just, like, a little jotting. Like, if you're going to request a book, then your rule with yourself is you have to write down, "Oh, I heard about it on What Should I Read Next?", or, "I saw it on Instagram," or "My friend told me about it in my Tuesday book club." You could perhaps, if that would help you.

[00:15:52] AMY: That's a great idea.

AMY: Yeah. And you know what makes me crazy is I don't know how to track that on Goodreads. Like, how do I track where I found that from, or who told me about it? And I don't know if I just don't know how to use the app very well, or if it's really not a function of Goodreads.

ANNE: Okay. Readers, I bet you can tell us. Please go to whatshouldireadnextpodcast.com and go to the show notes on this episode and tell Amy and I in comments. We would love to hear if this is something that you use Goodreads or Storygraph or your online tracking site for. And then a lot of books get returned unread.

AMY: Mm-hmm.

ANNE: I don't necessarily think that's a problem. A lot of books that you buy probably also go unread for a time. I believe that's part of the Save Me From My Library Holds request.

Amy, what would you like your reading life to look like? And I'm specifically thinking what you want to be reading, how you want to feel about what you are reading, and, I mean, even better, if you have this in mind, what role would you ideally like to see the library play in your reading life? How would you like it to support you instead of perhaps be in competition for your attention and priority reads? That's a lot of questions, but what rises to the top?

[00:17:08] AMY: The thing that kinda jumps out at me is an equal trade-off between the books that I own and the library. I mean, I don't want to ignore the library completely, or maybe I make it a reward. Like, "Amy, if you knock off two books from your personal bookshelves that you own, then you can go get a couple books from the library," and make it more of a fair trade-off.

ANNE: You're thinking like a balance?

AMY: Yes.

ANNE: Like a read one from one category and one from the other?

AMY: Yes. Yes, because what happens is I'll get a stack from the library, and then I'll feel like I need to power through six books before I ever go back to one of my books for more.

ANNE: I hear you. I mean, I heard you say you could use the library as a reward, but I think we can hear how much you enjoy going to the library and seeing what you'll find, what have already heard of that's there available for you right then. That's delightful.

AMY: It's fun.

ANNE: And also I imagine you discover new books at the library.

AMY: Yes. Also true.

[00:18:08] ANNE: So we want you to have that. But I do wonder if there is a way, or if this even sounds attractive, to put a beat between seeing the book and thinking, "Oh, I want to read that really soon." Because we're readers, lots of books look good, we probably want to read more than we realistically can. So that is going to be a constant tension. And it's a wonderful thing that you're seeing all these books that sound promising, and also, it doesn't change the fact that you can only read so much.

AMY: Right. All true.

ANNE: Okay, Amy, you know how this works. You're going to tell me three books you love, one you don't, and what you've been reading lately, and then we are going to talk about what you may enjoy reading next. We're going to think about this library dilemma. Is it fair to call it a dilemma?

AMY: Mm-hmm. Of course.

ANNE: And also, you came with another request about a certain kind of book, so we aren't going to forget about that either.

AMY: Okay, great.

ANNE: Okay. How did you choose these?

[00:19:05] AMY: All right. It was funny, when I went and looked at the list of books that I had submitted with my form, I was like, "Oh, gosh, I put that on there?" So it was kind of funny. And really it was only a couple of months ago, so you'd think I would've remembered.

Anyway, the first book that I chose is called Challenger: A True Story of Heroism and Disaster on the Edge of Space by Adam Higginbotham. This is an example of narrative nonfiction, which I really, really love. I first came across this book at my favorite bookstore back in Massachusetts, which is An Unlikely Story in Plainville, and it's... I noticed it because I had read another book by this author called... well, it was called something about Chernobyl. I forget the total title of-

ANNE: Oh, Midnight In?

[00:19:51] AMY: Yes, Midnight In Chernobyl. Exactly. And that was excellent. So I saw this one, and, you know, I'll just say that those of us of a certain age, we all remember exactly where we were when the Challenger shuttle exploded. And that was in 1986.

And if you're too young to really remember this, this shuttle exploded seconds after takeoff, and all seven crew members obviously were killed. The reason why this particular shuttle flight was so in the news was because it featured Christa McAuliffe, who was a high school science teacher, and she was the first-ever teacher to go into space. So the publicity around this was huge.

This book follows the seven crew members and their lives, so you really get to know all of them. Also, the history of the space program, and they go way back decades. And it's a really gripping account of NASA and how the space program worked. And all of the mismanagement and miscommunication and programmatic decisions and problems that were made all along the way, the funding issues, the political pressures, the go, no-go decision makers, the whistleblowers, everything that contributed to the disaster.

[00:21:04] And if you remember back to that time, we all knew, like, immediately came out, oh, it was the O-rings, the O-rings. So we all knew it was the O-rings. When you read this book and you kinda see the progression of all the problems, it is amazing, and it was fascinating and it was gripping, and it really read like a thriller-type of story. And so I just really love narrative nonfiction about a topic where the author just does such detailed research, but then they put the story together in such a consumable and accessible format and so easy to read. I just loved it.

ANNE: Okay. Thanks for telling us about that. I didn't realize that was the same author as Midnight in Chernobyl. This is the first book I've read by him. Amy, what's the second book you love?

AMY: The second book I chose is The Bee Sting by Paul Murray. This was one of the books I was honestly surprised that I had on here, but it really represents a book that I cannot stop thinking about. When I was done with the book, I didn't even know what to think about it. I was just kinda so blown away.

[00:22:08] But it is a story... takes place in Ireland. It's a story of a family of four: a mom, a dad, a son, and a daughter. The time period is recent, like after a very bad economic downturn in Ireland, and this family is falling apart for a whole bunch of reasons, which you will learn reading it. But it's really interesting in that it's told in like four sections. So the four different points of view, one for each member of the family.

It starts off with the daughter. She's a teenage daughter, and she is finishing up what's the equivalent of high school in Ireland and getting ready to go off to college, and of course, just thinking about herself and everything like that, but also thinking about her family. Her family used to be a more affluent family in the town. I think they owned a car dealership. But with this economic downturn, they're losing their money. And so all of a sudden, things are happening in their family, and it's hard for her to deal with, of course. So you get her perspective.

[00:23:03] Then the book shifts to the perspective of the son, and I think he was about 12 in this story. He's just really innocent, and he's lonely, and he's looking for friendship, both in person and online, and he's dealing with a local bully, and he's trying to understand everything that's going around him, too.

Then the third perspective is from the mom, and you get the backstory of her life and how it ended up with Dickie, her husband. Things start to get pieced together when you kind of see this whole background there, things that you really had no idea.

And then the fourth perspective, fourth part of the story is from Dickie, who is the father, and boy, does he have some dark secrets. And you get his backstory, and then you kinda see why he has ended up in such a mess. Then at the end of the book, all four of them come together in this one time, this one night. I'm just going to say that if you read this book, you have to buddy read this with someone or do it with a book club because you are absolutely going to need to discuss the ending with somebody.

[00:24:12] I had listened to this on Audible, and then it just ends. I'm like, "Wait, what?" And I'm like, "I need to discuss this with someone." Of course, I knew no one who had read it at the time, so I couldn't discuss it with anybody. I think that's why it took me such a long time to kind of really digest it, but I can't stop thinking about it. And these characters are so vividly fleshed out.

But this is a stressful book to read. Bad things kind of happen to this family, and they are making some poor decisions along the way. And I just remember, I think it was particularly the little boy's segment, and I just kept saying, "No, no, no, don't do that. Don't do that." It was a little bit stressful. But I mean, it's just brilliant writing. I love anything that takes place in Ireland, so that was also great. But that was my experience with The Bee Sting.

ANNE: I do not understand the word funny being attached to this book, which I've seen. I mean, I don't know. What did you-

AMY: I would never think of that word as the way I would describe it.

[00:25:12] ANNE: I've seen this slotted as humorous fiction, and I do not understand.

AMY: Oh, no.

ANNE: I found this riveting, but also just completely harrowing.

AMY: Riveting in that I had to find out what was going to happen to them at the end, like how this was all going to wrap up. I had to find out.

ANNE: It was tense?

AMY: Yeah, tense.

ANNE: It was such a tense reading experience. And a very long reading ex... okay, this is a very long book. Talk to me about that.

AMY: Oh, I love long books. I just love to sink into a really long book because I do, I think it gives time for the author to really give you the backstories, give you a lot of descriptions of what's going on, give you the character development that I love. I just love sinking into a really long story. Now, this one, like I said, I listened to it on Audible, and sometimes on Audible you don't realize how long it is. And then when I saw the book in the bookstore, I'm like, "Oh, wow, this was a longer one."

[00:25:59] I love long books. I mean, I generally think anything under 400 pages is like a rip-off, you know? It's like, give me a 500-pager plus. And when my friends will say, "Oh my gosh, we can't read that for book club, it's 500 pages," I'm like, "So?" To me, that's average. I just love long books, and I always have. I can remember, I think I was in college, sitting by the pool reading ...And Ladies of the Club, which is like a 1,200-page book, and thinking nothing of it.

ANNE: Okay, noted on the long books. Amy, what did you choose as your final favorite?

AMY: Okay, my final favorite is The Heart's Invisible Furies by John Boyne, and this really represents my favorite book from one of my very favorite authors. I have recommended this book to everybody, and I've bought it as gifts, and I just adored it.

It's another Ireland story. It's really the story of one man's life, and his name is Cyril, and it's got an interesting format in that it's told in increments of every seven years. It actually starts when his mother is pregnant with him, so that's the first section, and then it jumps to when he's seven, and then after a little while, it jumps to when he's 14. Then it jumps to when he's 21, and it goes throughout his entire life until he's of older age.

[00:27:20] Not only do you get to follow his life, you know, he's got a lot of struggles, he has a lot of joys, really great character development in this, but it also takes you on a journey through Ireland from the 1940s to the current day. I don't think it's a spoiler alert to say that Cyril is a homosexual man, and so you deal a lot with that in Ireland, the social norms.

It was illegal for so many decades, the Catholic Church and the power of the Catholic Church. You really just get so much texture and context about the different time and period. He's just a character you just love him, but sometimes you want to shake him. Like, "Cyril, why are you doing that? Don't." You know?

I just remember listening to this on audio, and I was driving to work, and I was almost to work, and the book was just wrapping up, and I just remember the tears coming down my face, and I'm like, "Okay, Amy, get it together. Now you have to go into work." You know what? My notes here, I'm like, "I am not a re-reader," but I really feel like this is definitely one I should re-read because I just loved it. It's wonderful.

[00:28:27] ANNE: All right. Amy, now would you tell us about a book that wasn't right for you? And it's important to hear why, if you're able to put your finger on it. Like, did it not align with your taste? Was the timing all wrong? Was it about a topic it turns out you don't want to read about in literature? What did you choose?

AMY: I feel like I need to duck because everybody is going to throw a rotten tomatoes at me, but-

ANNE: I hear you stalling.

AMY: The one I chose was Jayber Crow by Wendell Berry. The reason why I chose it, it was my most recent not-for-me. It certainly wasn't the worst. And as I was kinda reviewing some books for this podcast, I was looking back through my Goodreads, and boy, there are some duds in there that I have read. But this was just my most recent not for me.

Honestly, I think it was an issue of timing and my expectations and what I was hoping for in a book. I had recently read Theo of Golden, which I loved. It was just like a warm hug, and, you know, there's a lot of tough things happening in the world these days, and I just thought Theo of Golden was wonderful. And I think I was looking to replicate that feeling, to be honest.

[00:29:35] So I had heard about Jayber Crow on your podcast, and specifically, the anniversary episode, I think had a number of different guests come on and give a quick blurb about why they loved it so much. So when I was at a bookstore and I saw it, I thought, "Oh, this sounds perfect for me," so I grabbed it. And here I am reading one of my actual books, which was great but just not enough was happening for me.

This book takes place in an early 1930s small-town life, I think, in Kentucky. Starts with the main character as a boy, and then he grows up, and he becomes the town barber. It's definitely one of those kinda just character-driven stories, which I do tend to love. I don't have to have action-packed plots and things like that, but it just not enough was happening for me.

[00:30:20] I think maybe it was too close following on the heels of Theo of Golden, which was, you know, one of those nice soft books, and I think I just needed something different. Also I had a stack of library books staring at me in the face on the counter too. I got about halfway through the book, and every night I would get into bed, and I'd be like, "Ugh, I guess I should read this." And I'm like, "Amy, you're clearly not loving this book. Just set it aside. It's not for you right now." And so I did. I set it aside. It wasn't for me right now.

ANNE: Okay. Amy, I heard you reference ideas like it was slow, leisurely paced. You said you were seeking a read-alike, so something charming, whimsical.

AMY: Mm-hmm.

ANNE: Okay. Wendell Berry might be gentle, but... oh gosh, I remember laughing once when I saw Jayber Crow in a grouping of books about sad, small towns. And I thought, "Wow." I mean, that's not wrong, but also, what company to keep. It's very character-driven, very leisurely paced and that was not what you were seeking at that time.

[00:31:31] AMY: You know what? I just kept thinking to myself, I need something to happen. I need some more action. And I believe I set it down, and I went right to, like, a mystery thriller. So the timing just wasn't right.

ANNE: Okay. Also, it doesn't crack 400 pages.

AMY: No. But that's okay. I mean, I read plenty of books that don't, but you know.

ANNE: So not a rip-off, but not for you.

AMY: Yeah, exactly. Not a rip-off, but it wasn't for me.

ANNE: You are allowed to declare Wendell Berry not to be to your taste on this podcast.

AMY: Okay, thank you.

ANNE: All right. All right. Amy, what have you been reading lately?

AMY: I feel like I've been on a really great streak. I just read The Whistler, finished that a couple of weeks ago. It's a wonderful story. Again, short story. I mean, it's not a short story, but I mean, it's... I don't even know if it's 300 pages. But it's by Ann Patchett. I just adore everything that she writes. Really, really great contemporary story.

[00:32:25] Then I read The Calamity Club by Kathryn Stockett, and that was an easy five-star read for me. I mean, just really hit all the things that I love in a book: historical fiction, great characters. This book is really... it's about 1930s Mississippi and women's rights or lack thereof and things that used to happen all the time, but truly it's a story about sisterhood. I just loved it. And that's a big book. That was over 600 pages, and I flew through it because it was so good, and then I was really sad when it was over. So that was a great experience.

And then just the other night, I finished John of John by Douglas Stuart, and that one was really good too. It is a story about a young man who comes from a small Scottish island, and most of the people there are weavers or sheep herders, and they don't have a lot of money. But he was one of the few people that got to go off to a college, and now he's finished college, he's broke, he doesn't have a job, and he has to return home to the island. And he doesn't want to.

[00:33:28] He's kinda coming back with his tail between his legs. He doesn't want to go, but now he's gotta acclimate himself again to life with his family and his friends and life on the island. Really great story. Again, great character development, such a sense of place. Like you could just imagine these Scottish islands. That one was really good too, so I definitely recommend that. So had a good run.

ANNE: All right. I'm glad to hear it. Amy, what are you looking for in your reading life right now? I have to say, this is the place where we want to talk about your library holds and your long books. Is there something else you want to throw into the mix? Now's the moment.

AMY: No. I mean, I really, really want some long books. Now that I'm retired, in theory I should have a lot more time to read, and so should give me plenty of time to sink into a really great long book. Although, you know, with this recent move I haven't had quite as much reading time as I thought I would have, but that's going to settle down very, very soon.

[00:34:27] I find that heading into the fall and the winter tends to be a great time to also read long books. You just feel cozier and can really settle in with them. So long books. I'd love maybe a historical fiction selection, like some big long sweeping saga. I would love a narrative nonfiction.

What I have kind of discovered about myself is that I kind of love a book about a random topic that I know absolutely nothing about, if the author can really turn it into a compulsive, readable story. A few examples of that were The Boys in the Boat, which is about a crew team from the University of Washington in the 1930s, and I thought it was absolutely riveting. Say Nothing by Patrick Radden Keefe, which is all about Ireland and the IRA, which I knew nothing about as well. And then I also read a book called Everything Is Tuberculosis. I forget who the author is on that one.

ANNE: It's John Green.

[00:35:23] AMY: But it was all about tuberculosis. And it's like, who knew I'd be so interested in this? That's a really short book, but it really packed a punch. I loved it. So really looking for things like that, that I can really sink into. I love to learn when I read, so something that I can learn about, and maybe a mix between new-to-me books and maybe things that are currently sitting on my shelves. Who knows?

ANNE: Okay. And we want long bo... not all long books, but long books.

AMY: Yeah, long books.

ANNE: Okay. Amy, since you said in your submission that you're not getting to the books you own and you want to prioritize some of those, we asked you to send some of those books that you really wanted to get to sooner rather than later. And I'm looking at those lists. So we're going to draw some from there also.

AMY: Okay, great.

ANNE: Okay, let's recap real quick. The books you loved were Challenger by Adam Higginbotham, The Bee Sting by Paul Murray, and The Heart's Invisible Furies by John Boyne. Jayber Crow by Wendell Berry was not for you, and lately you've enjoyed Ann Patchett's The Whistler, Kathryn Stockett's The Calamity Club, and John of John by Douglas Stuart.

[00:36:29] You have referenced Irish fiction over and over. We've heard about your love for narrative nonfiction, and I'm looking at this... It's not a long list of books. I think there's maybe 16 to 18 on this list. But you did send some books that you thought you may enjoy reading next.

Also, I want to say, we are facing a new literary season, and there is so much Irish fiction coming out. Now, some of it is short, some of it is short, but I don't know, I wouldn't call Louise Kennedy a rip-off at any length.

AMY: No, she's good. I've read some of hers.

ANNE: As just one example of many. So I think there is going to be more on the way, more we'll talk about this on the show, more that I can't wait to talk about in Fall Book Preview, that I think will really pique your interest. But let's look at these titles.

The first one that jumped out to me, I think especially with your book clubs ringing in my ears, was Caste by Isabel Wilkerson that could've been on your list for... I mean, not forever. Some of these books are quite old, and this one just came out not much longer than five years ago. Okay, I heard you gasp. What's that about?

[00:37:38] AMY: That has been sitting on my bookshelf probably since it came out. I was going to guess five years ago, but four or five years ago. I think I bought it right away, because I loved her other book, The Warmth of Other Suns. So when this came out, I'm like, "Oh, for sure I'm going to buy it," and it has sadly sat on my bookshelf for so long, and I look at it all the time, I'm like, "What is wrong with you, Amy? Just grab it and read it." So, yes, tell me more about why I should put that to the pop- top of my list.

ANNE: Well, I think it's also ringing in my ears because I was in conversation earlier this week with a group of readers sharing the books that prompted the best book club conversations they ever had. And Caste by Isabel Wilkerson came up several times.

AMY: Okay.

ANNE: If you enjoyed The Warmth of Other Suns, I felt like this one was even more story-driven. I know that readers will often use or hear the phrase, like, "Oh, this is nonfiction that reads like a novel." And Isabel Wilkerson does not write like that, nor is she trying to, but she does this incredible job of writing these narratives that feel like she's telling you an important story that makes you want to lean in and say, like, "Just keep it coming. Just keep talking. Tell me more. Tell me more."

[00:38:56] But for those who've already read The Warmth of Other Suns, or those who haven't, this feels either like the obvious next thing to read next. But no prior experience with her work is required. But she tells this story about how... well, one formative experience in her own life, and also one important conversation helped her understand that maybe we shouldn't be evaluating the history of the United States through the lens of racism, but perhaps America has been shaped by a hidden caste system.

Here she's arguing for this idea that if you want to understand US social hierarchy, which might sound a little textbooky, but Isabel Wilkerson is not dry when it comes to explaining these concepts that, like, we are immersed in and living in, and describing how people live their lives and think about being human and think about being in society and relationships. I mean, Amy, I know from what you enjoy reading that this is something that you find inherently fascinating.

[00:39:52] But because of this nudge she was given in a conversation long ago, she realized that understanding the United States as operating under a caste system unlocks things in her own mind and in what she's found many people's understandings. So what she describes a caste system as being a deeply entrenched, but totally invented method of categorizing people by birth.

Here she links the caste systems of India, Nazi Germany, places that we may think, like, "Oh, of course," while excluding the US from there. But she says, like, "No, it's how the United States fits into this picture," and just does this deep dive into caste and also history, class, race, social norms. What I think really makes the book for many readers is she explains the concepts, but the stories she tells that really helps them make sense, sink in, come to life, not only are vivid and fascinating and sometimes horrible, but also I think really cement the ideas in readers' minds, where it's the kind of book that sticks with you for the long haul.

[00:41:07] So you know how you ended up putting this on your shelf, and what you had in mind when you thought about maybe reading it. Like, how is it sounding right now in that light?

AMY: Oh, it sounds amazing. I'm like, "What have I been doing letting that linger on my shelf for so long?" It sounds amazing.

ANNE: Well, we want to save you from your library holds and you know, the newer, shinier arrivals. But I hope you find this to be one that has earned its spot, and that there's a good reason it's been hanging out for a while.

AMY: Great.

ANNE: So you recently loved The Calamity Club.

AMY: Mm-hmm.

ANNE: Kin by Tayari Jones isn't by any means a readalike, but this has so much in common with The Calamity Club. It's sadder for sure. But I think what you'll find here is you've got historical fiction, great characters that you are deeply invested in from early on. You've got a historical setting, not the same, but I think pleasantly different while being pleasantly similar. But as far as sisterhood stories goes, oh, my. How did this end up on your list?

[00:42:11] AMY: Interestingly enough, I belong to a... it's not really a book club, but Ann Patchett, who owns a bookstore in Nashville called Parnassus, she has a monthly club that you can join. It's called The First Editions Club.

ANNE: The First Editions Club.

AMY: Yes. And so every month she sends a book, and it's been signed by the author, and Ann writes this really wonderful letter in there about why she picked the selection and what she thought about it and why she thought it'd be good for this book club. So every month I get one of these, one of these books. I haven't had it that long, but I haven't gotten to it either.

ANNE: Okay. Well, it's only 384 pages. But I mean, Tayari Jones, never a rip-off. My reading experience, which might not be the same as yours, it took me a little bit to figure out which character was which, but then I was off and running and just drank it right down.

AMY: Oh, good.

[00:43:05] ANNE: This is a platonic love story. The two women, who are so c... when I say sister story, I'm thinking about Vernice and Annie. They're two girls from small town Louisiana who feel psychically bonded in that they both lost their mothers when they were babies. One was murdered, one ran off to Memphis, but they are both gone. And on the brink of adulthood, Vernice goes to Spelman and marries rich; Annie runs away from home to try and find her mother, and she just encounters one devastating obstacle after another on her journey.

But they stay in touch through it all, and they remain the most important in each other's lives. But then when one of them really needs the other, like, whoo, the story enters a whole other... I think you may really enjoy it.

AMY: Ooh.

ANNE: It would be an excellent companion to The Calamity Club. I also think it would be an excellent companion to readers, if you remember me talking about These Heathens by Maya Mackenzie from last year's Summer Reading Guide. Not readalikes, but just books that really feel companionable. How's that sounding?

[00:44:11] AMY: Oh, it sounds amazing. Right up my alley.

ANNE: I'm glad to hear it. I am wondering about doing a... I mean, Middlemarch was jumping out at me. I didn't want to recommend any of your series installments because... you know best there. But I will say, many What Should I Read Next? listeners would definitely say, like, "Don't sleep on that, Amy." Like, "What are you doing? Why is that, why is that book hanging out?"

Middlemarch jumped out at me. It's a book that's referenced so often in literature, and I think I... That sounded a little nerdy. What I mean is there are so many references in mainstream books and also very literary works about... You know, are those even different? Not really, but Middlemarch references abound. I just finished reading Jane Smiley's 13 Ways of Looking at the Novel, which I know I mentioned here. She talks at length about Middlemarch.

[00:45:01] You know what Middlemarch does? Okay, I think this is why it's jumping out for you. As you've been discussing the books you enjoy and why, I've been wondering how much you might enjoy seeing authors analyze real events, history, people and their actions, the whys behind what we do. I wonder if there's something there about Project Hail Mary, and why that was the exception in the sci-fi fantasy you don't usually enjoy, and why perhaps Wendell Berry wasn't it for you. But I am wondering. Is there anything there?

AMY: The only thing that worries me about Middlemarch, and you can tell me one way or the other, sometimes these classical books are hard to read because the language is from the 1800s, and it takes a while to get into. Is this a book that I will find difficult to read, or will I be able to kinda, like, after a little bit just kinda sink right into the language and totally get it?

ANNE: Ooh, okay. I'm sorry to say I don't know, because I listened to Juliet Stevenson read it to me. And I find that when the language in classic books is not so smooth to the modern ear, a skilled narrator who, like, it just rolls off their tongue, it eliminates that gap between how we talk in the... I mean, George Eliot wrote this in the 1870s. She was writing about the 1830s. It feels more current.

[00:46:23] But I will say many readers say that part of the pleasure of reading Middlemarch is just the consistently striking sentences and turns of phrases, and how it just feels good on every line. And that doesn't sound like a description people give to archaic language.

AMY: Right. Right. That's interesting what you said about audio versus, on the written page, because I found that true with Pride and Prejudice. I could listen to it on Audible. It was great. It was one of those times when I think I had it from the library, or... At any case, after a couple of weeks, the audiobook just got scooped off my device, like my time ran out on it, and I wasn't quite done. And I thought, "Well, I'm just going to pick up the book from the library, and I'll just finish reading the book."

I picked up the book, I opened it up, I'm like, "I can't read this." It was just too difficult to read on the page, but the audio was amazing. So that's something to think about.

[00:47:19] ANNE: That's a common experience. And the only thing that really makes me hesitate on Middlemarch, I mean, if you hadn't said you hadn't listened to an audiobook since you retired, I'd say, "Amy, just pick up the audio." But that being what it is right now, yeah, I leave that in your hands.

AMY: Okay. Well, I can just pick it up off my bookshelf as well. So maybe that's- Oh, that's-

ANNE: Oh, yeah, so true. Yeah, give it a try and see what you think. I wonder if you may find that worth your while. And at 900 pages, it is definitely not a rip-off.

AMY: Right.

ANNE: Okay. So you also mentioned in your submission that something that you really noticed about pulling that list of books together that are on your shelves, that it's made you realize how much you love nonfiction books about random topics you know nothing about. And I was wondering if we might want to end with a few titles in that direction.

AMY: Yes, please. I would love that.

[00:48:12] ANNE: Okay. I kinda want to ask you what random topics you don't know anything about. But let's do three that are pretty different. Does that sound okay?

AMY: Okay. Yeah.

ANNE: Okay. Have you read anything by David Grann? Killers of the Flower Moon is his best-known. But-

AMY: Yes, I read Killers.

ANNE: Okay. How about The Lost City of Z, his earlier work?

AMY: No.

ANNE: Okay. The subtitle of this is A Tale of Deadly Obsession in the Amazon. This is about an expedition in search of an ancient civilization into the Amazon wilderness in the 1920s. The whole crew vanished, and they were unfound for many years because the forest was thick and it wasn't clear exactly where they'd gone. But the lead on this crusade left a few clues behind about the undiscovered city he was seeking that he called Z.

[00:49:08] So for many years, scientists and explorers have been looking for what happened to this expedition and what he might have discovered before his disappearance. So, David Grann found this collection of diaries of the lead on this expedition, and he embarked on his own quest to solve the mystery, and he found out he's not the only one. Like, other people are in the jungle looking to find out the truth of what happened 100 years ago. Bum, bum, bum. Okay, how does that sound to you?

AMY: I've never heard of this. I've never heard of The Lost City of Z. I didn't know that there was a crew that disappeared. This sounds exactly like something I would love because... Except for... you know, one thing about reading books about the Amazon is I do worry about the snakes.

ANNE: Oh.

AMY: I don't know if they got attacked by snakes or not. Or there are probably references to snakes, but that's... I'll just kinda pass over that when I get to the snake part if there are snakes in there. It's a jungle, right? Yeah, there's going to be snakes.

ANNE: It is. It is a jungle.

AMY: But yeah, no, this sounds great.

ANNE: The snakes might not be the worst part.

AMY: Okay, okay.

[00:50:11] ANNE: I mean, you said topics you don't know anything about, okay?

AMY: Yes.

ANNE: I might recommend a shorter book like Trash by Simon Paré-Poupart from the Summer Reading Guide, but I wasn't going to, because that's so short. That might be unwelcome. But it's there. It's out there. Now, I'm just really apologizing for recommending a book about parking, but I do wonder if you might enjoy- something super nerdy like The High Cost of Free Parking by Donald Shoup. It's 800 pages about the economic structures that are invisible to most of us that support the use of the car in many communities, including the one I live in, likely including the one you live in.

This is the kind of book that you read... I mean, you read a chapter, and then you think about it every time you walk down a city street. But he evaluates parking, mostly in the United States, how we got where we are, how decisions are made, how making different decisions impacts how people respond and what the communities look like. Is this sounding terrible or perhaps intriguing?

[00:51:21] AMY: No, this sounds really, really good. I don't know if this is the same book that I, or if I read a phrase about something that says people don't realize that when you go to like a Walmart or a big box store and you have to park in that giant parking lot, the distance you walk from your car into that store is no different than the distance you might walk on a city street or a small town downtown area that you have to park and walk to. But people don't like to go to the small downtown areas because they think they're parking so far away from the store. Is this along the same lines, or is this the same concept from this book?

ANNE: It's not dissimilar. But what Donald Shoup is going to do is he's going to say, "Why is the parking lot so big in the first place?" How does the zoning work? Yeah. What does it mean? Why is it in the front and not the back? What could be different? How does consumer behavior change when we alter the variables? What happens when we change the zoning laws to restrict fewer parking? Why are the zoning laws what they are? How'd they get that way in the first place? What changes when you charge for it? Oh my goodness. Right now, as we record, they've just announced that they are going to start charging for some suburban mall parking in my community, and-

[00:52:33] AMY: What? People must be losing their minds.

ANNE: People feel a way about it. But I think Donald Shoup says, "Read this book, you'll never look at a parking spot the same way again." 100% true.

AMY: Oh, that sounds so good to me. It's funny because I just moved to a new community, and we are... This community, it's within the city of Charleston, but we're far away from the downtown city of Charleston. We're a little bit further up. And it's all being developed. We're kinda one of the earlier communities in here, and it's all going to be developed over the next 10 to 20 years, and it's going to change so much.

But we're very close to Mount Pleasant, which compared to the Northeast... So if you live in a city in the Northeast, the big joke is all the towns are designed around the original cow paths when people had their cows grazing in the town common, and the cows would walk home, and that's how all the roads came to be.

[00:53:28] I mean, it's so hard to find your way around in Massachusetts if you don't know where you're going because the roads make no sense. But when you come down here to Mount Pleasant, for example, it is a community that has been developed over the last 20 years or so, and it just makes so much more sense the way they've designed like the shopping and the roads that get you through. I'm just so curious about this topic. Who knew I was going to be so curious about this? But we're living in an area that's going to be going through this development, and it will give me a lot to think about, for sure.

ANNE: I'm really interested to hear how what you find in these pages will connect with the two most recent places you've lived. Like what a fascinating contrast, too. So you could see some of the differences he's talking about, and sometimes advocating for, sometimes just observing, play out before your eyes and in your experience.

AMY: Awesome.

[00:54:22] ANNE: Finally, knowing your love of History, I'm wondering about something by Andrea Wulf. We did talk about... We. I talked about The Traveller in the summer reading guide, but I think The Invention of Nature: Alexander von Humboldt's New World would be a really interesting pick for you. It's pleasantly long at... It's almost 600 pages. Is this a book you're familiar with?

AMY: I have never heard of this.

ANNE: Okay. So The Invention of Nature, this concept, of course, is what... you know what nature is, I know what nature is. But Von Humboldt really changed the way that we think about the natural world. So now he's known as the Father of Modern Environmentalism. He was certainly the most famous scientist of his age. He was born in the late 18th century, and just had this innate love for outdoor exploration, and he traveled the globe just searching for unusual environments.

[00:55:23] Amy, I'm noticing a kinship with you, who likes to read about random topics you don't know anything about, just for the pleasure of learning new things. I mean, he got around. He was friends with Thomas Jefferson. He was an inspiration to Darwin and Thoreau, and he really wanted to help people understand our relationship to the natural world and helped us think about it.

So this is a biography that also takes you by, through following his life through scientific discoveries, through a variety of sometimes familiar, but sometimes really fascinating far-flung places, and also into the Royal Court of his patrons, for example. How's that sounding?

AMY: It sounds really good. I've never heard of him. I've never heard of the book. It definitely sounds like something I would learn a lot from in a really great way.

[00:56:15] ANNE: Andrea Wulf has this gift for combining these really deeply researched topics with their emotional meaning, and it makes for really satisfying non-textbooky kind of reads.

AMY: Ooh. It's going to make me want to look her up right after this call and see what else she has written too.

ANNE: I recommend it. I recommend it.

AMY: That's great.

ANNE: Okay. Can we look at where we are?

AMY: Yes.

ANNE: All right. So we're looking to save you from your library holds by focusing on some books already on your shelves, and also books that you would be glad to know about that maybe aren't going to be face out at your local library or not going to hunt you down on Instagram, but might be right up your alley, especially focusing on those nonfiction reads that you really love to read about... How would you finish that sentence? Unknown topics to you?

AMY: Yes, yes.

[00:57:13] ANNE: Okay. So from your own shelves, we talked about Caste by Isabel Wilkerson, Kin by Tayari Jones, the shortest book we talked about, almost, but not quite 400 pages, and Middlemarch by George Eliot. So we have two novels in the midst of this nonfiction

AMY: I think from that group, I'm going to grab Caste first because-

ANNE: I love that choice for you.

AMY: I am. It's been on there for so long. It's always looking at me. I've always wanted to grab it, and this is the perfect time to grab it and read it. So I think from that group, Caste.

ANNE: Okay. And then to satisfy your realization that you love nonfiction books about random topics you know nothing about, we talked about The Lost City of Z by David Grann, The High Cost of Free Parking by Donald Shoup, and The Invention of Nature by Andrea Wulf. What do you think about those?

[00:58:14] AMY: I think I'm going to go for The High Cost of Free Parking.

ANNE: Not sad about it. Very curious to know what you think.

AMY: I mean, obviously all of them will end up on the list, and I'll definitely get to all of them, but for some reason, The High Cost of Free Parking just really sounds fascinating to me right now.

ANNE: I love it. All right. Amy, this has been a pleasure.

AMY: Oh.

ANNE: How are you feeling about your library situation?

AMY: You know what? I am super excited. Now I can go to the library and get a library card without feeling guilty about it, and enjoy the new libraries that we have down here in Charleston. And I can't wait.

ANNE: All right. I'm so excited to hear it. Thank you for talking books with me today.

AMY: Oh, thank you for having me. It was absolutely so much fun.

[00:59:02] ANNE: Hey, readers. I hope you enjoyed my discussion with Amy, and I'd love to hear what you think she should read next. Find the full list of titles we talked about today at whatshouldireadnextpodcast.com.

Keep up with what's new around What Should I Read Next? HQ on Instagram, where you will find us @WhatShouldIReadNext. We also send out updates right to your email inbox. Join our list at whatshouldireadnextpodcast.com/newsletter.

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[00:59:44] Thanks to the people who make this show happen. What Should I Read Next? is created each week by executive producer Will Bogel, Media production specialist Holly Wielkoszewski, social media manager and editor Leigh Kramer, community coordinator Brigid Misselhorn, community manager Shannan Malone, and our whole team at What Should I Read Next? and Modern Mrs. Darcy HQ. Plus the audio whizzes at Studio D Podcast Production.

Readers, that's it for this episode. Thanks so much for listening. And as Rainer Maria Rilke said, "Ah, how good it is to be among people who are reading." Happy reading, everyone.

• Project Hail Mary by Andy Weir (Audio edition)
Challenger: A True Story of Heroism and Disaster on the Edge of Space by Adam Higginbotham
• Midnight in Chernobyl by Adam Higginbotham 
The Bee Sting by Paul Murray
The Heart’s Invisible Furies by John Boyne
▵ Jayber Crow by Wendell Berry 
• Theo of Golden by Allen Levi
• Whistler by Ann Patchett
• The Calamity Club by Kathryn Stockett
• John of John by Douglas Stuart
• The Boys in the Boat by Daniel James Brown
• Say Nothing by Patrick Radden Keefe
• Everything Is Tuberculosis by John Green
• Caste by Isabel Wilkerson
• The Warmth of Other Suns by Isabel Wilkerson
• Kin by Tayari Jones
• These Heathens by Mia McKenzie
• Middlemarch by George Eliot 
• 13 Ways of Looking at the Novel by Jane Smiley
• Pride and Prejudice by Jane Austen (Audio edition)
• Killers of the Flower Moon by David Grann
• The Lost City of Z by David Grann
• Trash! by Simon Pare-Poupart
• The High Cost of Free Parking by Donald Shoup
• The Invention of Nature by Andrea Wulf