James Comey says he took it as a command. President Trump says he never even said it. We discuss the one word that an obstruction of justice case could turn on: “hope.” Guests: Adam Liptak, who covers the Supreme Court; David E. Sanger, who has been reporting on U.S. cyberattacks. For more information on today’s episode, visit nytimes.com/thedaily. For two weeks, we’re offering listeners a free trial of a New York Times digital subscription. Visit nytimes.com/dailytrial to sign up.

Subscribe today at nytimes.com/podcasts or on Apple Podcasts and Spotify. You can also subscribe via your favorite podcast app here https://www.nytimes.com/activate-access/audio?source=podcatcher. For more podcasts and narrated articles, download The New York Times app at nytimes.com/app.

Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.