When do democracies go to war and how do leaders navigate wartime decisions in a just way? Host Gil Troy and former Israeli Ambassador to the United States Michael Oren discuss the moral dilemmas that emerge during modern-day conflict, with a focus on the Israel-Hamas War and Middle-Eastern tensions with Western democracies. Drawing on manuscripts from the American Civil War and WWII, we take a glimpse at how Presidents Lincoln and Truman approached the existential national crises of their day and examine what can be learned from their leadership and choices.

(00:00) Opening

(01:25) Introduction

(03:05) Letter: Harry Truman and World War II

(07:55) Letter: Lincoln and the Civil War

(14:01) Interview with Michael Oren

(33:03) Summary

(34:59) On the next episode

To read the texts and learn more about the manuscripts discussed in this episode, visit: 

- President Harry Truman Defends Use Of The Atomic Bomb In WWII August 11, 1945

- “With Malice Toward None” Lincoln's Second Inaugural Address - Signed Quotation

- “Both Parties Deprecated War” Lincoln’s Second Inaugural Address - Signed Quotation

- Abraham Lincoln’s Response To Thurlow Weed’s Complimentary Letter On The  Inaugural Address  March 15, 1865

- A Civil War Union Soldier Vividly Describes A Civil War Battle June 8, 1862

Check out Michael Oren’s 5 favorite books:

- Blood Meridian by Cormac McCarthy

- Personal Memoirs of U. S. Grant by Ulysses S. Grant

- Letters to My Palestinian Neighbor by Yossi Klein Halevi 

- Sabbath's Theater by Philip Roth 

- Books of the Maccabees

- Any book by Elizabeth Strout

Watch the trailer to Oppenheimer. The film is based on the Pulitzer Prize-winning book American Prometheus: The Triumph and Tragedy of J. Robert Oppenheimer by Kai Bird and the late Martin J. Sherwin.

Stay connected with us on Facebook, Instagram, LinkedIn and by signing up for our newsletter at shapell.org/contact. For more information about this podcast, visit The Human Side of History.

Comments & Corrections:

Both Gil and Michael reference a number of "potential casualties" that were avoided with the dropping of the atomic bomb in WWII. Various military experts and historians disagree on what the number of potential casualties saved would have been. Some military experts have said that the correct number was likely much lower than the one estimated at the time of Truman’s decision-making. The discrepancy between the different numbers referenced by Gil and Michael highlights how much these numbers are estimations, taking into account different variables.

LST stands for “Landing Ship, Tank”, or tank landing ship, a kind of large ship first developed during WWII that carries tanks, vehicles, cargo, and troops, and can land on beaches without the need for docks or piers. 

Production by docyourstory

Sound by Idan Koka

Music by Adam Weingrod

The show is produced by The Shapell Manuscript Foundation. To learn more about the foundation and discover the manuscript collection visit: www.shapell.org