Can a vaccine cause what it's designed to prevent? Are pesticides part of the polio story? In their most layered conversation yet, Artie and Brian Jolley explore the tangled relationship between science, narrative, and belief. They tackle vaccine skepticism, the limits of public health messaging, and how power—and language—shape what we call "truth." From the oral polio vaccine’s strange paradox to the philosophy of communication, this episode dives deep into how we justify, distort, and sometimes clarify the world around us.

Topics include:
• Polio, oral vaccines, and unintended consequences
• The pesticide correlation—and what it might mean
• Language as both a bridge and a barrier
• Narrative bias, intellectual honesty, and epistemic humility
• Science vs. meaning: why we need both
• Systems thinking, holons, and the hierarchy of human understanding

Keywords: Brian Jolley, polio vaccine, vaccine skepticism, public health narrative, language and meaning, narrative bias, pesticide and polio theory, cognitive science, systems thinking, Ken Wilber, oral polio vaccine, self-deception, intellectual humility podcast