In this special episode of the Gamers with Glasses Show, we discuss Noah Wardrip-Fruin’s excellent book, How Pac-Man Eats! Noah joins us, along with Patrick Jagoda (author of Experimental Games), to talk about why “models” and “logics” are more useful terms than gameplay or mechanics; how we can make games about more than just beating the bad guys; why Animal Crossing: New Directions is a lot of fun, but not as interesting as Stardew Valley in terms of its design; the work Noah and Patrick are doing at their game development studios/labs; the value of cooperative play; what kinds of game design principles we would like to see become more common in the games industry; and much more. It’s a great conversation for anyone interested in game development, game studies, or game design in general!