In this episode, we're joined by author and poet Too Black to unpack his essay "Nonviolence is violence, too: Somebody's gotta die," and to challenge the comforting myths that often surround "nonviolent" struggle. We dig into what he means by the claim that nonviolence is never actually bloodless, why he prefers the term "sacrificial violence," and how nonviolent movements frequently gain leverage precisely because an opponent supplies the repression that shocks the public, shifts legitimacy, and forces concessions. Along the way, we talk through the research Too Black draws on including Erica Chenoweth's work on lethal repression, and we explore his core metaphors and case examples, from confronting power like "poking a bear over honey" to the method-independent brutality of settler colonialism in Palestine.

At the heart of our conversation is a deep dialectic between Martin Luther King Jr. and Frantz Fanon, and how both frameworks, in different ways, move through violence as an unavoidable terrain of liberation. For King, suffering becomes the redemptive path, a willingness to absorb brutality to expose evil and transform the political and spiritual situation. For Fanon, revolutionary violence itself is the redemptive force, the route through which the colonized reclaim dignity, agency, and self-respect. We close by asking what this reframing means for organizers today: if rights require enforcement and "dramatizing evil" often demands real sacrifice, how should movements talk about nonviolence honestly and strategically in the world as it actually is?

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Outro Beat Prod. by flip da hood